Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

[profitius]

First topic message reminder :

Continued from this one. https://www.606v2.com/t63658-irish-provinces-news-gossip-thread-2016-17
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[mikey_dragon]

Looked pretty good from what I saw. Strong carrier. I’m not sure if he’s still in the reckoning for Aus, I don’t expect he will be after the World Cup so a great coup for Ulster.

[Pot Hale]

Sean O’Brien will be out for 6 months as he has to undergo hip surgery.

No RWC and L Irish wont be thrilled either.

[profitius]

SOB should retire now for his own sake. London Irish won't get 15 games out of him.

[Collapse2005]

SOB should retire now for his own sake. London Irish won't get 15 games out of him.

Agreed

[marty2086]

Sean O’Brien will be out for 6 months as he has to undergo hip surgery.    

No RWC and L Irish wont be thrilled either.

Given when the RWC finishes and he'd have been available and when he returns from injury, he'll probably be available sooner and fresher than if he hadn't got the surgery. Can't see why LI wouldn't be happy about that

[SecretFly]

He'll probably last long enough to get injured one more time with London Irish and then understandably call it a day.  

The man has played at the highest level and intensity for too long now for anybody to try arguing that he hasn't become very brittle indeed.

There will come a point where his future welfare (to try to be as free from limiting aches and pains as much as possible) will outweigh any future Rugby ambitions.  I think it's time for him to say the spirit is willing but the flesh says stop.

[geoff999rugby]

On the basis Ireland will take 5 backrowers I wonder who the 5th will be?

Conan, Stander, POM, de Flier are shoo ins
Beirne and Henderson can cover 6 if required
So who do you reckon Ruddock or Murphy ?
The thing in favour of Murphy is he cover 7 better, if de Flier gets injured we need a 7

[Pot Hale]

On the basis Ireland will take 5 backrowers I wonder who the 5th will be?

Conan, Stander, POM, de Flier are shoo ins
Beirne and Henderson can cover 6 if required
So who do you reckon Ruddock or Murphy ?
The thing in favour of Murphy is he cover 7 better, if de Flier gets injured we need a 7

Would Tadgh Beirne be considered as the fifth, Geoff, - allowing Toner, Ryan, Henderson and either Roux or Dillane as extra lock? Or would Schmidt dare to take Kleyn at this late stage?

Agree with you about Jordi covering 7 better, and also 8.

[Pot Hale]

With season over, the final attendance stats for the provinces look like this:

Leinster 206,905 - up 22,173 (11 games this season + SF)
Ulster 152,182 - down 9,110 (only 10 games this season +QF)
Munster 142,094 - down 17,367 (only 10 games this season +QF)
Connacht - 66,142 - up 7,813 (11 games this season)

Total - 567,323 - up 3,518 on last season. Overall, not a bad outcome.

European gates
Leinster - 171,425 - down 736 - same number of games this season
Munster - 71,205 - down 25,585 - No QF this year
Ulster - 42,118 - down 3,823 - same number of games this season
Connacht - 16,118 - down 6,479 - one less game this season.

With all four in the Heineken next season, hopefully these will all improve.

[geoff999rugby]

Pot the problem with taking Beirne primarily as a backrower is he doesn't solve the problem of cover at 7.
Schmidt wants he players as part of the internal structure beforehand - I don't reckon Kleyn has any chance
Is Toner going to make it ?

[rodders]

On the basis Ireland will take 5 backrowers I wonder who the 5th will be?

Conan, Stander, POM, de Flier are shoo ins
Beirne and Henderson can cover 6 if required
So who do you reckon Ruddock or Murphy ?
The thing in favour of Murphy is he cover 7 better, if de Flier gets injured we need a 7

I think we are struggling a bit in the back row now.

Leavy really is a massive loss as he brings balance with POM and Stander with his ball carrying and pace. O'Brien has looked someway of his best but if he could have recaptured some of his old form he'd have been the closest like for like replacement.

VDF as good as he is doesn't fit well with the other 2 and our backrow was too lightweight during the 6N - similarly with Jordi Murphy, if POM plays 6 you need a ball carrier at 7.

For that reason I think Ruddock needs to travel now, I'd even consider him or Stander at 7, with Conan at 8. I do think Joe will go with Jordi Murphy though.

Beirne I don't think will go unless there is an injury. I think at lock will be Ryan, Toner, Henderson and Roux.

[Collapse2005]

I think the answer is to put Stander at his preferred position at 6, Conan at 8 and VdF at 7. Best balance and makes most sense to me.

[Pete330v2]

So who's the naughty Leinster player that Ewan McKenna has commented on twitter about? Who's been taking the weewee

[Collapse2005]

The guy did something similar before.

[marty2086]

The guy did something similar before.

Seems to be a thing in Irish rugby of guys getting it out in bars

[Collapse2005]

Yeah it happened at a Munster party in Kilkenny years ago too.

[marty2086]

And an Ulster one too a few years back

[rodders]

Roux doesn't even make the training squad, forgot Jean Keyn, will he make it at Beirnes expense?

[Collapse2005]

And an Ulster one too a few years back

Technically this guy isnt a Leinster player though anymore.

[Pete330v2]

And an Ulster one too a few years back

Technically this guy isnt a Leinster player though anymore.

Technically he hasn't been for some time with the limited amount of game time he's had over the last couple of years

[Collapse2005]

True. In other news, great to see Dave Kearney back in Ireland contention and in the RWC training squad. Well deserved, super player. Very popular addition Im sure.

[marty2086]

True. In other news, great to see Dave Kearney back in Ireland contention and in the RWC training squad. Well deserved, super player. Very popular addition Im sure.

Obviously part of Robs new contract

[geoff999rugby]

If Dave Kearney is anywhere near the Ireland squad I would be deeply disappointed

Given the backs are (usually) made up of 5 half backs, 4 centres and 5 back three players it is basically saying
one of Earls, Stockdale, Rob Kearney, Larmour and Carbery/Conway doesn't go.

Is that a serious suggestion ?

[Collapse2005]

Plenty of time for pre world cup injury. Plus Larmour, Earls and Conway arent exactly undroppable.

[profitius]

Andrew Porter might have played himself out of the squad with his recent form. You can see he's still learning how to prop.


Anyway I think Schmidtball has been found out and I would be shocked if he introduces a new game plan. A leopard doesn't change its spots. Have very low expectations would be my advice.

[Collapse2005]

Have heard it all before

[Taylorman]

Have heard it all before

True, saw it all before too...in 2015.

[geoff999rugby]

Plenty of time for pre world cup injury. Plus Larmour, Earls and Conway arent exactly undroppable.

Anyone can get injured of course.
Those three players are not undroppable but they are all a hell of a lot better than Kearney.
Put Kearney on the wing and you are basically saying to the likes of NZ our threat to you out wide on that side is poor

[Collapse2005]

Sure Ireland came within a few minutes of beating NZ with Kearney on the wing

[geoff999rugby]

So what - that was in spite of not because off

Bottom line is if he plays our chances are diminished - we need better

[rodders]

I have to say that 44 man squad is a bit underwhelming, particularly in the outside backs.

Injuries to the likes of Addison doesn't help but McCloskey, Tom Farrell, Adam Byrne, Rory O'Loughlin and Luke Marshall etc. would bring a lot more than some of the picks in my opinion.

Tommy O'Donnell getting in shows we are down to the bare bones in the back row as well.

Here's hoping Joe can work some magic because we'll need it.

[Collapse2005]

So what - that was in spite of not because off

Bottom line is if he plays our chances are diminished - we need better

He had a great game that day. Top player.

[geoff999rugby]

Would you pick him in front of Earls, Conway or Larmour.

If you think he is a top player your ceiling must be low

[Collapse2005]

I wouldnt be disapointed if he was. You brought up NZ and yet I dont think Ive seen many worse performances than Earls' v NZ in the 60-0 game. I dont recall DK having a bad game for Ireland.

Not that convinced by Larmour.

In reality though I think all those guys would do fihe for us including Kearney. Stockdale obviously leads the way.

[geoff999rugby]

There is no point say x have a great game on day y and vice versa.
Every player who plays professional rugby has games where they play out of their skin and every player who plays professional rugby plays games where they have a mare. As the saying goes form in temporary class is permanent.

You clearly rate a player who for me is no more than a decent provincial player
He is short of international class in my view and should not be considered for this World Cup.

For me the killer fact is if you went into the NZ dressing room and ask who they would rather play against Earls, Larmour or Dave Kearney I am totally convinced they would say Kearney

As for Conway he cover 15 Dave Kearney doesn't and that is why he should go

[Collapse2005]

Im not convinced they would know who any of them are except maybe Earls for possibly the wrong reasons. The reality is if NZ is the bar you measure these players I find it wierd you cant seem to acknowledge Kearney played pretty well v NZ in his one appearance against them.Better than some.

The 42.ie gave him an 8 out of 10

www.the42.ie/ireland-all-blacks-ratings-1190007-Nov2013/%3famp=1

When were all the bad games he has meant to have had for Ireland? His worst game was undoubtedly the RWC 1/4 v Argentina but everyone was bad then but he was alright aside for that.

Anyway no issues that you dont rate him but for me I wouldnt be worried at all if he played as his record in green is good.

[geoff999rugby]

You obsess about one game, In the case of both Kearney and Earls.
Earls is without question the better player

It is not so much being poor - he is not called Dave average for nothing.

All top teams, including NZ, take a good hard look at the players in front of them.
To think otherwise is incredible naive

[Collapse2005]

He was called Dave average from fans who were upset that their local hero from down the road wasnt getting the team ahead of him. Like that actually holds any credence.

Im sure teams like NZ do research their opponents though it is entertaining how often SANZAR players struggle to name their opposition players in pre match interviews. Im not convinced Ioane could name all four wingers mentioned above. I also couldnt really care less if NZ fear our players or not as long as we are competitive against them. Their lack of fear against us in Chicago may have been their undoing.

I have always been an Earls fan myself but he has had his fair share of bad days in the Ireland jersey too. Like I said I wouldnt describe any of our wingers as undroppable except Stockdale so its great to have talent like Dave well above average Kearney ready to step up if needed.

[rodders]

I can understand why DK is in there. If there are injuries then Joe needs someone who can come straight in and know all the systems a la Fergus McFadden.

Plus he can cover the back 3 so I presume Schmidt and Farrell are looking at the utility back options once they trim the squad.

I guess the time for player development is over and it is about covering all bases in Japan now, plus having guys who will give their all in training to help whoever is selected prepare.

[geoff999rugby]

Conway, Larmour and Ringrose are the utility backs.

Dave Kearney is only a winger
I understand why he is there - Schmidt knows him and he is a steady eddie.

He will not get selected if the 5 I mentioned are fit

[rodders]

Come on Geoff, Ringrose is starting outside centre, he won't be playing wing or full back.

If Conway and/or Larmour were to get injured, not to mention Earls or Stockdale then the likes of Kearney would come into the frame so it makes sense to keep him up to speed in the training camps.

Aside from that he's had a decent season, he's not as quick as he was but he is solid all round which is what Joe likes in a back 3 player.

Conway has lost form totally since before the 6N so is lucky enough to be there himself.

[Collapse2005]

Interesting that there are two uncapped players in the squad but not unexpected as there nearly always is a few new additions. Haley and Kleyn.

Would like to see O'Donnell hit top form again so we have some options at 7 behind VdF.

Ireland’s 44-man pre-World Cup training squad:

Forwards (24)

Hookers: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Rob Herring, Niall Scannell

Looseheads: Cian Healy, Dave Kilcoyne, Jack McGrath

Tightheads: Finlay Bealham, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, John Ryan

Second-rows: Tadhg Beirne, Ultan Dillane, Iain Henderson, Jean Kleyn, James Ryan, Devin Toner

Back-rows: Jack Conan, Jordi Murphy, Tommy O’Donnell, Peter O’Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, CJ Stander, Josh van der Flier



Backs (20)

Scrum-halves: John Cooney, Kieran Marmion, Luke McGrath, Conor Murray

Out-halves: Ross Byrne, Joey Carbery, Jack Carty, Johnny Sexton

Centres: Bundee Aki, Chris Farrell, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Rory Scannell

Back three: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Mike Haley, Dave Kearney, Rob Kearney, Jordan Larmour, Jacob Stockdale.

[Collapse2005]

Come on Geoff, Ringrose is starting outside centre, he won't be playing wing or full back.

If Conway and/or Larmour were to get injured, not to mention Earls or Stockdale then the likes of Kearney would come into the frame so it makes sense to keep him up to speed in the training camps.

Aside from that he's had a decent season, he's not as quick as he was but he is solid all round which is what Joe likes in a back 3 player.

Conway has lost form totally since before the 6N so is lucky enough to be there himself.

Kearney fits in well to the game plan which is why he played every minute of the successful 2014 6N campaign.

I suspect the loss the Argentina set his international career back significantly as he had a bad day that day.

[rodders]

Come on Geoff, Ringrose is starting outside centre, he won't be playing wing or full back.

If Conway and/or Larmour were to get injured, not to mention Earls or Stockdale then the likes of Kearney would come into the frame so it makes sense to keep him up to speed in the training camps.

Aside from that he's had a decent season, he's not as quick as he was but he is solid all round which is what Joe likes in a back 3 player.

Conway has lost form totally since before the 6N so is lucky enough to be there himself.

Kearney fits in well to the game plan which is why he played every minute of the successful 2014 6N campaign.

I suspect the loss the Argentina set his international career back significantly as he had a bad day that day.

I'm not against his inclusion in the training squad and wouldn't have concerns about him as a bench option in event of injury but 2014 is a long way back.

He struggles to hold down a first team place at Leinster now and definitely offers less threat with the ball.

That said the back 3 options and attacking threat of our outside backs is something that worries me. Stockdale's red hot form last season has masked a lack of cutting edge which has re-emerged this year for us.

Beyond him and Larmour we have no one really to worry the opposition, which makes the exclusion of McCloskey all the more bizarre in my opinion.

[Collapse2005]

I think Ireland needs a more layered formation in their backs when launching attacks. When you have the option to make a flat pass or a deep pass (two support options each time) it keeps defenses guessing and it is harder for them to just blitz you each time which is what England and Wales did to us. Other sides use it very effectively.

I think if you execute your plan very well and the plan is good enough then it doesn't matter that much who plays given the level they are all at. Although like all sides some players do emerge that become almost undroppable.

[rodders]

Yes but I think the issues extend beyond that. We were very effective last season (Leinster as well) with retaining the ball for multiple phases and grinding teams down.

The big problem for me is that other teams have worked out that if they dominate the collisions and shut us down behind the gain line and force us to commit more numbers to secure the ball we really don't offer too much threat.

In terms of attacking play also, Sexton looks like he's lost a bit of pace, not to mention Murray's lackluster form, meaning teams aren't getting sucked on to him on the loop plays the way the were previously, so we aren't creating space on the outside.

I do fear teams have worked us out a bit, similar to the way Bath were a few seasons ago when Ford used that RL diamond formation.

I really hope that Schmidt and Farrell have something up their sleeves for the Autumn otherwise this could be another disappointing campaign.

[Collapse2005]

Im still hopefull. With respect to Japan and Samoa I believe that we only have to win two big games to meet our target a semi.

We have a good record v Scotland and SA. Scotland are still vulnerable to the current game plan and SA aren't generally tactically that smart, though that may change under Erasmus but I believe we still have their number. As such I think the odds on a semi should be still quite good especially give we have still only lost 3 games in two years.

Schmidt fairly regularly adds new dimensions to the game plan from one campaign to the next and has a habit of turning dips into peaks reasonably drama free aside from the inevitable dramatically fickle fan reactions.

[Collapse2005]

Speaking of odds is anyone here good at statistical problems?

Suppose you’re on a game show, and you’re given the choice of three doors: Behind one door is a car; behind the others, goats. You pick a door, say No. 1, and the host, who knows what’s behind the doors, opens another door, say No. 3, which has a goat. He then says to you, “Do you want to pick door No. 2?”

Is it to your advantage to switch your choice? Thoughts?

[SecretFly]

Schmidt and Farrell know the rugby wasn't good enough in 6N.  They knew it.  They're not dumb.  They watch how other teams play - intricately.  
So they knew what they were offering up wasn't remotely close to being competitive enough and yet they made no great efforts to change things, just kept plodding and kept choosing two central strategy and tempo setting players who were obviously well off the boil.  No panic just played through the championship seemingly in practice mode and yet still slotted into 3rd at the end.

Both Schmidt and Farrell (and some central players) know exactly the level they need to be at to have a chance of the top prize at a WC.  And they know they'll need to have more variety, intensity and sneaky craftwork at their disposal.

The pressure is certainly off so the resetting of expectations can begin.  Ireland will have a more effective game ready for the WC.  What opponents 'learned, about us was reciprocated.  We learned a lot about how these sides mean to challenge us.

[Collapse2005]

The rugby championship will be interesting this year. I have a inkling that SA might win it. NZ have failed to win the last two RWC year rugby championships.

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