Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

[profitius]

First topic message reminder :

Continued from this one. https://www.606v2.com/t63658-irish-provinces-news-gossip-thread-2016-17
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[SecretFly]

Like I said, they couldn't win.

And like I said... a contract is only a contract when it's agreed to by both parties, is written down and is signed. Negotiations are a series of offers incrementally heading towards a contract. A series of offers. Perhaps the players were naive in thinking one of the offers was a guaranteed signed contract.

Anyway...again...Munster couldn't win - but in my view made the right decision - overdue too.

[marty2086]

They could have made the right decision yet had a bit of class about it, instead Jones and Flannery were strung along.

How hard would it have been to say, 'Lads, we're willing to offer you this but we're also still assessing our options and may go another direction so if you want to see what other opportunities are out there we respect that'?

How many potential jobs went in the time between the initial agreement and the written contract?

FYI, oral contracts can be legally enforceable

[SecretFly]

How do you know the discussions weren't along those lines?  
Do we have transcripts of all the meetings that might have taken place?  
Might the two lads be feeling a bit sore that most people feel it was more of a sacking than something they controlled (as the choreography earlier suggested) - and therefore this newish interpretation goes out to throw Munster in a bad light.

Personally, I don't care about Munster's reputation so if the two lads think they had an enforceable legal oral contract then let them sue.  If they don't feel they had something strong enough to sue, however, then perhaps they could make a call to some publication or other to say the accusations being thrown around are not being done so with their understanding or approval.
I don't expect the former or indeed the latter to be honest, because people have been hurt.  That can't be avoided in such circumstances.

Anyway, like I've said, I don't care much about it either way as Irish Provincial rugby has more serious things to think about now, like Academy players being knocked out by fly-in ex-players, and an alleged 'serial' urinating suspect once again suspected of letting more than his reputation down in the plssgate sphere of idiocy.

[Pot Hale]

How do you know the discussions weren't along those lines?  
Do we have transcripts of all the meetings that might have taken place?  
Might the two lads be feeling a bit sore that most people feel it was more of a sacking than something they controlled (as the choreography earlier suggested) - and therefore this newish interpretation goes out to throw Munster in a bad light.

Personally, I don't care about Munster's reputation so if the two lads think they had an enforceable legal oral contract then let them sue.  If they don't feel they had something strong enough to sue, however, then perhaps they could make a call to some publication or other to say the accusations being thrown around are not being done so with their understanding or approval.
I don't expect the former or indeed the latter to be honest, because people have been hurt.  That can't be avoided in such circumstances.

Anyway, like I've said, I don't care much about it either way as Irish Provincial rugby has more serious things to think about now, like Academy players being knocked out by fly-in ex-players, and an alleged 'serial' urinating suspect once again suspected of letting more than his reputation down in the plssgate sphere of idiocy.

That would be former Leinster players, Stan Wright and Sean O'Brien, as reported in de papers.

IRFU, specifically Nucifora, did also commit to developing Irish coaches and the original plan was to have developing Irish coaches in place at each province with a view to them eventually ascending to the top job. John Fogarty and Leo Cullen seem to be the only high-profile guys.

By RWC 2023, who are we likely to have in place at the Irish provinces in the coaching set-ups?

[SecretFly]

Like I say, I think Paulie and O'Gara ran away pronto because maybe they saw the negative effects of being coaches dropped straight into the same Province straight from the playing career.

So maybe Irish coach promotion is a good thing in theory but maybe moving to a different Province when you become one is a more ideal way of doing it....

..... or maybe.....

....some Irish coaches simply aren't good enough.

I think The two Munster lads were given the offer the couldn't accept because they were judged to be not good enough.  Cold conclusion but for Munster to prosper they have to keep making those hard decisions.
The two lads might prove everyone wrong at another team in the near or far future but for now, even though they were Irish, they didn't seem to be effective enough.

[Pot Hale]

Like I say, I think Paulie and O'Gara ran away pronto because maybe they saw the negative effects of being coaches dropped straight into the same Province straight from the playing career.

So maybe Irish coach promotion is a good thing in theory but maybe moving to a different Province when you become one is a more ideal way of doing it....

..... or maybe.....

....some Irish coaches simply aren't good enough.

I think The two Munster lads were given the offer the couldn't accept because they were judged to be not good enough.  Cold conclusion but for Munster to prosper they have to keep making those hard decisions.
The two lads might prove everyone wrong at another team in the near or far future but for now, even though they were Irish, they didn't seem to be effective enough.

Yep. Munster can't afford to coast whilst coaches develop - slowly.

[SecretFly]

Let's go full experimental and hire Roy Keane as a rugby coach. He seems to prefer rugby to football anyway, probably regrets he chose football over rugby (well, apart from the money), he did a stint of two with a rugby team when he was doing his bloody whatdyacallem? - badges? (crap childish lingo for manager training) - he's a hard man, a useless football coach and he's Irish.

Perfect.  Couldn't fail, could it?

And if he works out in bringing a whole new set of eyes to the game, then next up, get Mad Dog McClean.

[Collapse2005]

I wouldn't be against him coaching Munster first to see how he gets on.

[Kingshu]

I don't know, Payne has done well stepping straight from playing to coaching his province. Some will step up, some will need development time.

[Pot Hale]

I don't know, Payne has done well stepping straight from playing to coaching his province. Some will step up, some will need development time.

Payne was a good player and probably has the instinctive nous to develop into a very good coach relatively slowly and not in the kind of spotlight of expectation that Munster constantly carry each year - they need to make a European home quarter-final each year as a minimum. He's also had his first season as part of a new broom team following a substantial clearout and Ulster surpassed expectations for the season just gone. Probably more pressure to deliver next season with new signings and an increased expectation from HQ. Definitely one for the future - assuming he stays put.

[Collapse2005]

So anyway Rog has officially been appointed LaRochelle head coach. Nice gig for him.

[formerly known as Sam]

So anyway Rog has officially been appointed LaRochelle head coach. Nice gig for him.

Very nice. Wonderful city to live in and a squad with a lot of potential that could certainly benefit from some of the cool tactical control he exerted as a player. They can certainly attack.

[SecretFly]

He likes planes, does Rog. Not a poster boy for the Climate Change soldiers, that's for sure.

[SecretFly]

I don't know, Payne has done well stepping straight from playing to coaching his province. Some will step up, some will need development time.

Well Munster have been doing ok too so I'm not suggesting the two lads were an absolute disaster if you were to compare them to someone like Payne. 

I'm simply saying that Munster, in unison with their head coach and probably/possibly Nucifora, felt that the quality simply wasn't good enough in coaching terms to get those extra percentages they want to genuinely aim for the big prizes.  

I agree - and I think the fact that they were dropped in there as coaches with Munster possibly meant their shortcomings weren't admitted to earlier.  That fear of offending past playing heroes.

[profitius]

Larkham announcement imminent according to the Irish examiners Tony Leen.

[Collapse2005]

Larkham announcement imminent according to the Irish examiners Tony Leen.

I saw him in the airport last Friday with his daughter. I would suspect he signed on the dotted line.

[profitius]

Larkham announcement imminent according to the Irish examiners Tony Leen.

I saw him in the airport last Friday with his daughter. I would suspect he signed on the dotted line.

Confirmed now. 3 year deal.

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2019/06/14/stephen-larkham-to-join-munster-rugby/

[SecretFly]

My word! All Munster's delayed Christmases have come at once!

On the beer lads!!!!!!

..... well, on second thoughts, .... perhaps not. Milkshakes instead lads and close to the Gents.

[Standulstermen]

Munster look in good shape between the prospects in the U20s, the new coaches and the conferences for next season. Might be worth a punt for the pro14

[Collapse2005]

Munster look in good shape between the prospects in the U20s, the new coaches and the conferences for next season. Might be worth a punt for the pro14

Yeah they had some good under 20s players for sure.

[Sin é]

Like I say, I think Paulie and O'Gara ran away pronto because maybe they saw the negative effects of being coaches dropped straight into the same Province straight from the playing career.

As very high profile players under the spotlight in Ireland, I think they wanted to get out of the spotlight and enjoy a bit of freedom for a few years.

I think The two Munster lads were given the offer the couldn't accept because they were judged to be not good enough.  Cold conclusion but for Munster to prosper they have to keep making those hard decisions.
The two lads might prove everyone wrong at another team in the near or far future but for now, even though they were Irish, they didn't seem to be effective enough.

Both Jerry and Felix are highly regarded. Munster wanted to keep them. Lets not forget that Rassie Erasmus offered Felix a job with SA (and Felix is still only 31). Schmidt seemed to rate him highly as well. I suspect he wants to develop his coaching career (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he ended up coaching in SA/Super Rugby for a few years). I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry Flannery gives up coaching as he has huge business interests he might want to get stuck into. I always got the impression is that he was doing Axel a favour when he joined Munster's coaching team). He has done a great job with the Munster forwards.

[Sin é]

My word!  All Munster's delayed Christmases have come at once!

On the beer lads!!!!!!

..... well, on second thoughts, .... perhaps not.  Milkshakes instead lads and close to the Gents.

Munster isn't Leinster and so don't need to wear nappies!

Joey Carbery should be deligthed and excited to get Larkham as his new coach.

[Collapse2005]

Lol, there were stories of a Munster player doing something very similar about ten years ago. Like they are somehow morally superior to other rugby players.

[SecretFly]

Munster look in good shape between the prospects in the U20s, the new coaches and the conferences for next season. Might be worth a punt for the pro14

Yeah, could very well be a big bounce coming, as can happen with such a new collective...but it might more realistically take a bedding in year to really see what at Team (coaches) can do.

[Sin é]

Lol, there were stories of a Munster player doing something very similar about ten years ago. Like they are somehow morally superior to other rugby players.

I don't think they peed on anyone. The Munster team did get into trouble on their Christmas night out in Kilkenny once. The Indo claimed that Doug Howlett got arrested! (He didn't and they had to apologise to him).

Quinny was talking about that recently - said that the whole incident was a wake-up call when they realised that they had to cop on.

Leinster were asking for trouble when they decided to exclude fans from their awards night (so that the lads could let their hair down)! Someone should have realised that might not have been a good idea.

[SecretFly]

No, no...wasn't there also talk of twosomes and threesomes or whatever numbers they like... down the line there somewhere, Sin?

Anyway, I think I recall mention of conversations about that kind of stuff a few years ago with one of two Munster lads half-mentioned.

Hope Diageo don't go looking for news on that stuff, IF it was indeed a real story. They hate unbridled sexual activity by drunk men I hear.....

[Sin é]

No, no...wasn't there also talk of twosomes and threesomes or whatever numbers they like... down the line there somewhere, Sin?

Anyway, I think I recall mention of conversations about that kind of stuff a few years ago with one of two Munster lads half-mentioned.

Hope Diageo don't go looking for news on that stuff, IF it was indeed a real story.  They hate unbridled sexual activity by drunk men I hear.....

Ah yes, I remember it. As far as I can recall, it was the woman who was boasting about her conquests on social media - the opposite of what happened in Belfast.

The IRFU/Munster must have had words with them because since then, the two lads have settled down with girlfriends/partners (with one of them proudly boasting recently that Child No. 3 is on the way).

[SecretFly]

So she was guilty of treating the boys like meat or sexual conquest notches on her pistol?

Well, that is equality for you.

[Pot Hale]

So she was guilty of treating the boys like meat or sexual conquest notches on her pistol?

Well, that is equality for you.

I didn’t know that girls had pistols these days, thought they only had the holster. Modern times eh, Fly? It wasn’t like that in Mae West’s day.....

[SecretFly]

God I laughed, Pot. You made me feel my emotional age there. What a jolt it was.

Stars on her fuselage then!

[Pot Hale]

God I laughed, Pot.  You made me feel my emotional age there.  What a jolt it was.  

Stars on her fuselage then!

There you go - much more ladylike and subtle.

[profitius]

Joey Carbery should be deligthed and excited to get Larkham as his new coach.

Should be interesting what he does with JJ. JJ could be used more as a second playmaker IMO. Bleyendaal and Ben Healy should be the back up 10s.

[The Great Aukster]

No, no...wasn't there also talk of twosomes and threesomes or whatever numbers they like... down the line there somewhere, Sin?

Anyway, I think I recall mention of conversations about that kind of stuff a few years ago with one of two Munster lads half-mentioned.

Hope Diageo don't go looking for news on that stuff, IF it was indeed a real story.  They hate unbridled sexual activity by drunk men I hear.....

Ah yes, I remember it. As far as I can recall, it was the woman who was boasting about her conquests on social media - the opposite of what happened in Belfast.

The IRFU/Munster must have had words with them because since then, the two lads have settled down with girlfriends/partners (with one of them proudly boasting recently that Child No. 3 is on the way).

Rather than being opposite, it was the same thing happened - but it was the outcome that neither set of rugby players had any control over.

The outcome from the Munster 'precedent' was laddish notoriety and no doubt seen as something to emulate by impressionable juniors?

[SecretFly]

+ it would appear that the woman perhaps made the revelations public against the wishes of the players, or at least not having looked for approval from them?
+ she treated the encounter as a 'conquest' of sorts? Purely a sexual dalliance, no respect for the men, just the physical thrill of the bodily moment?

So yep, women can be as cold, clinical and animalistic in their desire for blunt, non-emotional sexual experiences as men.  It's a truth we all know exists but few get the leverage to put forward publically when discussing how sexes might prey on the other for purely physical gratification.

[profitius]

For far in the transfer market for the provinces combined it's 14 in, 34 out. +23 academy players promoted.


Compared to:

2014/15
28 in, 42 out. +13 academy promotions


2015/16
25 in, 45 out. + 10 academy players promoted.


2016/17
35 in, 54 out, 0 academy promotions. [I had to double check that]


2017/18
22 in, 37 out, +21 academy promotions


2018/19
25 in, 47 out, +17 academy promotions


In the previous 5 seasons the averages are:
27 in, 45 out. +12.2 academy

- This season sees a big jump in promoting academy players.
- Squads seem more settled. Less movement than previous years. Presumably that's down to having less foreign players.
- There's more leaving than coming in so the squads must be smaller. That coincided with stronger academies so the provinces can dip into the academy when short.
- Leinster have signed 4 players in 3 years. The rest have been academy promotions.
- Between them Munster and Leinster have signed just 2 players for next season.

[SecretFly]

That's an interesting stand-out stat for 2016-2017. Anyone know or remember what might have caused that sudden complete lack of seeming faith in the academy resources? I know it could just be an incidental anomaly and that the numbers weren't high in the seasons before, but still - notable drop from 13, 10 all the way to zero.

[profitius]

That's an interesting stand-out stat for 2016-2017.  Anyone know or remember what might have caused that sudden complete lack of seeming faith in the academy resources? I know it could just be an incidental anomaly and that the numbers weren't high in the seasons before, but still - notable drop from 13, 10 all the way to zero.

Its a weird one. Probably because the U20s of 2013, 2014 and 2015 were weak. Not great talent in those years.


2012s and 2016s were strong but the 2012s mostly graduated in 2014 or 2015.


The 2016s would have just being entering the academy that year or the year before. There's a jump the next year when I presume the likes of James Ryan, Porter, Stockdale etc got promoted early plus some of those are just being promoted now.

[geoff999rugby]

Ulster have promoted 9 Academy players in the 18/19 season

They have signed 2 NIQ but that is because they had only 1 NIQ at the end of the season, lower than anyone else

[profitius]

Ulster have promoted 9 Academy players in the 18/19 season

They have signed 2 NIQ but that is because they had only 1 NIQ at the end of the season, lower than anyone else

McFarland has made some big changes. I notice all the provinces now have a core group of players which are backed up by young Irish players. I'd say Nucifora is driving that forward.

[geoff999rugby]

Anyone seen the new Leinster, European, purple jersey - YUK !

[Geen sport voor watjes]

Doesn’t matter what colour it is. They always smell

[asoreleftshoulder]

The sweet smell of success.

[SecretFly]

Doesn’t matter what colour it is. They always smell

...of beer or p-iss? Don't be coy, DOD. This is a man's game after all.

[profitius]

https://limerickrugby.ie/aviva-take-over-by-the-irfu-remains-a-speculative-possibility/

Interesting article on whether the IRFU should offer to buy the FAI's share of the aviva stadium.

[SecretFly]

https://limerickrugby.ie/aviva-take-over-by-the-irfu-remains-a-speculative-possibility/

Interesting article on whether the IRFU should offer to buy the FAI's share of the aviva stadium.

Now that's more like it.... !

And drop the name Aviva as I think it was the FAIs part of the bloody deal that forced the name change to pay for their bit of the deal that they couldn't afford.

Call it either the John Delaney Begging Bowl instead. Or Cannabis Gardens.

[profitius]

https://limerickrugby.ie/aviva-take-over-by-the-irfu-remains-a-speculative-possibility/

Interesting article on whether the IRFU should offer to buy the FAI's share of the aviva stadium.

Now that's more like it.... !

And drop the name Aviva as I think it was the FAIs part of the bloody deal that forced the name change to pay for their bit of the deal that they couldn't afford.

Call it either the John Delaney Begging Bowl instead.  Or Cannabis Gardens.

I read that the FAI are losing €40k a week in interest payments so it might be worth their while to negotiate a deal. Even St John of Delaney gave them a loan!

[mikey_dragon]

I can’t remember if I mentioned where James McCarthy was headed after I brought him up. He’s joined Dragons. Hopefully he develops into a good pro player!

[Collapse2005]

I see Leicester have just signed form Leinster/Munster backrower Jordan Coughlan from Northampton. Could be one to watch, he was class at schools level.

[St John The Enforcer]

Nottingham....Northampton..... It's all the fuken one init.

[Collapse2005]

Nottingham....Northampton..... It's all the fuken one init.

Sorry yes you are right.

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