Ireland 6 Nations chat

First topic message reminder :

Geoff on the Ulster thread created a clever analysis on squad depth and I am taking a crack at a similar one for Ireland in advance of the 6 nations:

My assumptions are based on a squad of 36 (not the 40 Joe named last year). Players categories into 4 ratings:

World class = top three in position in world, and/or Lions test starter
International class = would make the team for other tier 1 nations
Below international class - would not make the team for other tier 1 nations
Exciting prospect - show potential to be a real asset

Ideally we have one world class and 2 international class per position.

TH (3)
World class - Furlong
International class - Ryan
Exciting prospect - Porter

Assessment - Drop off after Furlong, but not as steep as with hooker

Hooker (3)
International class - Best, Cronin (instead of Tracy)
Below international class - Herring

Assessment - Our weakest forward position, with a big drop off after Best

LH (3)
World class - McGrath (Lions bench for all three tests, scrapes in here)
International class - Healy, Kilcoyne

Assessment - Most consistently strong position in front row, all three are great players and Healy may well rereach his world class heights in 2018. Add in Moore and its a great position for us

Lock (5)
International class - Henderson, Toner
Below international class - Dillane, Roux (instead of Treadwell)
Exciting prospect - Ryan

Assessment - good first team pair, with some exciting prospects coming through.

Flankers (6)
World class - POM
International class - VDF, Murphy (Instead of TOD, Ruddock and SOB out due to injury)
Exciting prospect - Leavy

Assessment - embarrasment of riches!

No. 8 (2)
International class - Stander, Conan
Assessment - Very strong, with multiple flankers also able to play there

Scrumhalf (3)
World class - Murray
Below international class - Marmion, McGrath

Assessment - big drop off after Murray. Marmion/McGrath neither have been able to fully translate provincial form to ireland

Flyhalf (3)
World class - Sexton
Below international class - Keatley
Exciting prospect - Carberry

Assessment - Sexton staying fit is essential to winning in Twickenham, the drop off after that is huge.

Centers (5)
International class - Henshaw, Aki,
Below international class -  Farrell
Exciting prospect -Scannell (Instead of Ringrose and McCloskey)

Assessment - strong, if not the most exciting group of players.

Wings (5)
International class - Earls
Below international class - Conway, McFadden (Instead of Byrne, Sweetnam)
Exciting prospect - Stockdale

Assessment - some exciting young players coming through, but think Earls will start

Fullback (2)
International class - Kearney
Exciting prospect - Larmour

Assessment - Kearney continues to show his class in the big games and will start 3/4 of the 6 nations, I think Larmour has a good shot of starting the others. TOH if not.

geoff999rugby wrote:I think saying we don't have the skill level of others is Love sacks

In fairness I did use the term skill but that is a bit of a lazy generalization as there are lots of skills in rugby and in mny of them we have very skillful players.

Leinster and Connaght in particular have been very successful playing offloading rugby.

That said if you look at the likes of Watson's try at the weekend we don't have the player who really can break the line and run 50-60 metres to score, that is just reality.

Look at the Lions backline, no Irish player was really in contention in the outside backs.

Henshaw is a classic example - nailed on starter, physically strong, hardworking, decent athlete but he's not someone who sits down defenders or run over people.

For all the wrap around plays against France we didn't really threaten anything, that wasn't for want in ambition in our tactics, we just didn't have anyone able to cause the French defense problems.

We might make the odd half break here and there but really our tries come generally from being well within the opposition half.

rodders wrote:

Look at the Lions backline, no Irish player was really in contention in the outside backs.

A few things about that, rodders.

Number 1:  Gatland is always Wales coach...even when he coached the Lions.  Gatland is going to try to work as many of his men into a Lions tour and teams because he obviously wants to instil confidence in those players for future benefit as Welsh coach.............. like the 2018 6N.  So less places for the other candidates from other nations... Ireland/Scotland.  England must be handled more delicately because his object was still to win the series.... and he needed more than a Welsh team to do it

Number 2:  Gatland has a long history with Ireland even though he's a long time gone.  Long memory, much brooding, much vengeance plotting, loves to still kick us when he gets his moment (BOD) - loves that Mafia 'horse's head' stuff.

Number 3:  The Lions only drew the series - they didn't win it.  Had our old leaden legged backs been there, the Lions might have won the whole thing.  The pedestrian Irish backs did it before.  

Number 4:  I don't give a crap about The Lions.  The way you get into that side is to be very visible at the sparks and somersaults and va va voom.  The 6N and AIs are the shop window for players to put up their hand for the show.  Our players sacrifice this shop window to play to their commander's wishes and tone everything down into the grind of defence.

It keeps going back to tactics...not ability.

England do have Watson but they also have a 10 playing at 12 because there are no top class 12's in England.
Teo is a very limited 13.
May is fast but otherwise ordinary (although Cloete was able to match him in a foot race recently - not bad for a backrower)
Brown is the most overated 15 in World rugby

We have Ringrose, Earls, Stockdale and Larmour with the x factor

Overall I simply do not thing we come up short , by comparison, far from it

Ringrose : appears to be injured more often than not
Earls : I don’t rate against top class opposition. Good flat track bully
Stockdale : Good AI series but has been shown up recently (notably once by Larmour)
Larmour : looks like the real deal if he gets his chance

So not sure we really have an abundance of 50-60yd line breakers

I could put an equally negative spin on the England boys.
What does that prove ?
And are you seriously dismissing Stockdale because of one bad game and Ringrose because he has had a couple of injuries this year ??

It about the potential to make a difference on the pitch and our back line, in that respect, is the equal of others

Blanko wrote:Ringrose : appears to be injured more often than not
Earls : I don’t rate against top class opposition. Good flat track bully
Stockdale : Good AI series but has been shown up recently (notably once by Larmour)
Larmour : looks like the real deal if he gets his chance

So not sure we really have an abundance of 50-60yd line breakers

Really? I would have Earls as one of the most naturally gifted finishes Ireland has ever produced. He has done it against top class opposition many times so not sure how you see him as a 'flat track bully'. Each to their own of course.

Not sure how Stockdale has been shown up either, he had next to no opportunities against France but for Ulster he is breaking lines everywhere and is in the same form as he was in the AI's.

Larmour looks like he's about to throw up!

Not looking great there for Furlong...

Hopefully nothing serious, great player.

A few terrible passes on the gain line for Ireland, giving the receiving player no time and causing knockons.

Ooh selfish from Murray there, there were numbers on the right if he shifted it and didn't go for the try himself...

Made no difference though as he sets up Henshaw then scores himself. Ireland actually playing with attacking intent...

Hopefully we are only an hour away from abandoning this myth that Italy are improving.

Scottrf wrote:Hopefully we are only an hour away from abandoning this myth that Italy are improving.

And maybe people might realise that they are playing a lot of inexperienced players, they are trying to build a team and depth. Not going to happen over night but hopefully come the RWC they'll be a lot sharper

Italy are dreadful, it’s time the bottom team had a play off with the 2tier 6 nations, italy need a rocket up their backside to improve or get lost

Losing by massive scores (like last week and today) does Italy no favours at all. They need a break from the 6 Nations and we need a break from them.

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Hopefully we are only an hour away from abandoning this myth that Italy are improving.

And maybe people might realise that they are playing a lot of inexperienced players, they are trying to build a team and depth. Not going to happen over night but hopefully come the RWC they'll be a lot sharper

I honestly do not see where they are going to improve myself. They are simply a very poor team. I can see COS sharpening them up a little but cant see them being sharp enough to truly push top tier 1 nations by the time of the RWC.

TightHEAD wrote:Italy are dreadful, it’s time the bottom team had a play off with the 2tier 6 nations, italy need a rocket up their backside to improve or get lost

It'll really scare them to play a team the Emerging Italy team can beat

Ireland's angles are really impressive. Seem to have multiple options on different lines every pass.

Ireland playing some sexy rugby

eirebilly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Hopefully we are only an hour away from abandoning this myth that Italy are improving.

And maybe people might realise that they are playing a lot of inexperienced players, they are trying to build a team and depth. Not going to happen over night but hopefully come the RWC they'll be a lot sharper

I honestly do not see where they are going to improve myself. They are simply a very poor team. I can see COS sharpening them up a little but cant see them being sharp enough to truly push top tier 1 nations by the time of the RWC.

When you bring in essentially a whole new team things aren't going to happen over night, systems and combinations take time to build. The first two weeks of the competition they are playing two of the best teams in the world, that'll expose a lot of teams never mind a brand new one

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Italy are dreadful, it’s time the bottom team had a play off with the 2tier 6 nations, italy need a rocket up their backside to improve or get lost

It'll really scare them to play a team the Emerging Italy team can beat

I actually believe that the Georgian team is very much under-rated. I would wager they would beat this Italian side and could possibly pose a tougher challenge in the 6N than Italy currently are.

marty2086 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Hopefully we are only an hour away from abandoning this myth that Italy are improving.

And maybe people might realise that they are playing a lot of inexperienced players, they are trying to build a team and depth. Not going to happen over night but hopefully come the RWC they'll be a lot sharper

I honestly do not see where they are going to improve myself. They are simply a very poor team. I can see COS sharpening them up a little but cant see them being sharp enough to truly push top tier 1 nations by the time of the RWC.

When you bring in essentially a whole new team things aren't going to happen over night, systems and combinations take time to build. The first two weeks of the competition they are playing two of the best teams in the world, that'll expose a lot of teams never mind a brand new one

Fair point

eirebilly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Italy are dreadful, it’s time the bottom team had a play off with the 2tier 6 nations, italy need a rocket up their backside to improve or get lost

It'll really scare them to play a team the Emerging Italy team can beat

I actually believe that the Georgian team is very much under-rated. I would wager they would beat this Italian side and could possibly pose a tougher challenge in the 6N than Italy currently are.

Georgia who have never beaten a tier one nation, who lost to Emerging Italy a few years ago and who finished behind Romania last season in the REC?

I'm not criticising the Italian team for failing to win these first two games, or even be competitive. But the narrative prior to the game from the pundits was that they would pose some sort of challenge and could cause upset. Clearly ridiculous.

That's quite a stat from the commentator - if Italy lose all their games Parisee will have 100 losses to his name!

Georgia used to be a very strong rugby nation and I feel they are on their way back. I do believe, as others do, that the bottom placed 6N team should have a play off against the best tier 2 nation. Its another way to help develop rugby in other countries.

We don’t need to replace Italy with Georgia. We need to go back to a 5 Nations.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's quite a stat from the commentator - if Italy lose all their games Parisee will have 100 losses to his name!

I've said on here quite a few times, despite his individual ability he holds Italy back

Cyril wrote:We don’t need to replace Italy with Georgia. We need to go back to a 5 Nations.

5 has an awkward schedule.

4 doesn't, has all the real rivalries and most of these players play too much rugby already.

Stockdale making a lot of mistakes!

Harsh on Scotland Scott?

5 nations, yes please.

How long do Ireland keep Sexton on?

Alright get the bird off the panel 'I've actually been impressed with Italy's defence'

Scottrf wrote:Alright get the bird off the panel 'I've actually been impressed with Italy's defence'

100% agree.

Scottrf wrote:Alright get the bird off the panel 'I've actually been impressed with Italy's defence'

Can we get the sexist off these boards?

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Alright get the bird off the panel 'I've actually been impressed with Italy's defence'

Can we get the sexist off these boards?

Lighten up dude

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Alright get the bird off the panel 'I've actually been impressed with Italy's defence'

Can we get the sexist off these boards?

Lighten up dude

There is always somebody around to be offended on the behave of others

That looks like a potential broken arm for Henshaw.

Larmour on the field on the wing (not his position) and Earls to 13 (not his best position).

Big blow for Ireland losing both Furlong and henshaw potentially for the tournament

Ref cost them a try there I think.

Scottrf wrote:Ref cost them a try there I think.

No doubt about it!

Poor missed tackle by Leavy there.

COS has gifted Ireland a massive points difference here

Highlight for me is the pitch, looks great!

Shame to see Henshaw off, looked like a break?

TightHEAD wrote:COS has gifted Ireland a massive points difference here

In what way?

As poor as Italy are, Ireland have been outstanding today.

eirebilly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:COS has gifted Ireland a massive points difference here

In what way?

As poor as Italy are, Ireland have been outstanding today.

You see Billy England only scored 46 points past Italy so therefore Italy tried against them but COS ordered them not to try against us.

Minozzi does look pretty handy.

This Italy team can play in stints....

mid_gen wrote:This Italy team can play in stints....

But two interception passes cancel out all of their points.