Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Carberry is 22, McPhillips is 21. Is this talk about sticking with McPhillips and hoping he turns out to be a gem maybe a tad naive? Carberry at a year older is being talked about as though he was the second coming and all this despite Sexton and Byrne and a whole backline of stellar players potentially blocking him. By contrast, it's almost as if we only know the name of McPhillips because we had no choice. A year ago the thinking was Jackson and Nelson. We then were saying Cooney can play 10 a bit. Then we signed Lealifano. Surely if McPhillips was the hot prospect, the coaches would have featured him more before Lealifano left.
In fact during Leanlifano's time here wasn't Nelson the preferred bench 10, and indeed started 3 games at 10 before Christmas, but then got injured?

Not meaning to be super negative, I hope I'm wrong. Cooney is a perfect example of a player suddenly shining from nowhere. I guess Ulster coaches know better than me if he's a real prospect worth thrusting into the limelight or not.

Is anyone here applying for the vacant post at Ulster Rugby just advertised today?
I know I am

Surely with things like the Gibbs situation is you write in we are letting you go early to go home on the condition you only take a job at home. If you don't you must compensate us

A lot like a young SA player who actually had to retire until his contract situation was sorted

He did take a job at home though

For how long.

I think it's good for Ulster to get a clean start but wasn't rumours going around when he left that he had a French team looking at him.

Yes, La Rochelle. Problem is he had the 9 month release clause the IRFU put in all contracts so he didn't have to go home, just give his notice and still be going to France

At this stage, who honestly cares?

Jonno may not have known exactly where he wanted to go but we know for damn sure where he didn't want to be. It doesn't matter what reasons he gave for leaving Ulster, what mattered most was getting a coaching team signed up and that's done. Now what matters most is players in the positions we need them in for next season. Now that is something to care about.

Yes. Agreed.

Don Alfonso wrote:At this stage, who honestly cares?

Probably quite a lot of people.
The IRFU can't allow the provinces to be used like that with impunity. If Gibbs was released under false pretences then they should be seeking financial compensation from La Rochelle.
Clermont can't be too happy either, as they had to release him from a contract on what has transpired to be a tactic to avoid compensation to them, and he then shows up at a major rival - they should be seeking compensation also.
The LNR might not be too happy either, if the whole thing was orchestrated to allow one of their teams to poach a rival coach.
Anyone involved with drafting contracts will look at this chain of events and have to rethink how they ensure their contracts are worth anything.

But he's going to Waikato - he's just not staying there. Why would La Rochelle pay us compensation?

Isn't there supposed to be a nine month notice period?

The Great Aukster wrote:Isn't there supposed to be a nine month notice period?

Yes and he's going to La Rochelle in November, he gave his notice in Feb/April time so that's around the 9 month mark so why would they owe us

Given that we don't know what the personal reasons were/are for leaving we don't know if circumstances have changed in the mean time

Couldn't give two hoots about Gibbes. One second we are saying we don't want Carbery if he doesn't want to be here, next thing we are saying we want a coach to remain against his will?

I don't care what the reasons given are or actually were. He didn't want to stay, grand, how do we move forward in the best way?

I'm more interested in the question of... are we actually going to make any signings?

Maybe some players wanted to get the June tests over before announcing they are moving to Northern Hemisphere?

I'd take RG Snyman for lock and Damien McKenzie to cover 10/15. Thanks


(I'm sure McKenzie has a contract clause along the lines of 'if I ever get an offer to sign for Ulster')

clivemcl wrote:
(I'm sure McKenzie has a contract clause along the lines of 'if I ever get an offer to sign for Ulster')

Doesn't everyone?

clivemcl wrote:Couldn't give two hoots about Gibbes. One second we are saying we don't want Carbery if he doesn't want to be here, next thing we are saying we want a coach to remain against his will?

I don't care what the reasons given are or actually were. He didn't want to stay, grand, how do we move forward in the best way?

I'm more interested in the question of... are we actually going to make any signings?

Maybe some players wanted to get the June tests over before announcing they are moving to Northern Hemisphere?

I'd take RG Snyman for lock and Damien McKenzie to cover 10/15. Thanks


(I'm sure McKenzie has a contract clause along the lines of 'if I ever get an offer to sign for Ulster')

Reminds me of last night after the gruesomely boring Brazil v Switzerland game.... Slaven Bilic was asked about whether a push in the box was a penalty or not. He tried an answer for a few seconds but the truth was written all over his face. And then he simply blurted out the truth: 'To be honest, I don't care'.

Lovely stuff. I love gulps of sheer honesty at times.

Scottish Rugby is pleased to confirm Danny Wilson will join the Scotland national team as Assistant Coach (forwards) this August.

Wilson, who has eight-years’ elite-level coaching experience in the Guinness PRO14 will replace Dan McFarland, who is set to join PRO14 side Ulster in January.

FFS Ulster, look if this is the man you DEFINITELY want, then just pay them to release him. If not, take the second place candidate.
I'm so fed up with the club asking it's team and fans to wait through seasons to get the coaching ticket they deserve.

It's unacceptable.

Scotland are playing hard ball, and they have the power, so just suck it up and pay out. If UR weren't prepared to pay him out of his contract, they shouldn't have offered the job to him.

Feckin shambles as I see it.

Going by what has been said, he was an IRFU and Joe appointment, if they are making the appointments surely they should stump up the cash to release him. Maybe this is one of the things Logan wants to get off his chest once he's out the door

I don't see how this is a shambles just standard practice all round with all parties protecting their own interests. The SRU are digging their heals in which is their right to do.

If Ulster want him earlier then they need to pay up or appoint caretaker. I don't see how it has anything to do with Schmidt or the IRFU.

I think it is a good sign the SRU won't release him as shows he is held in high regard.

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Isn't there supposed to be a nine month notice period?

Yes and he's going to La Rochelle in November, he gave his notice in Feb/April time so that's around the 9 month mark so why would they owe us

Given that we don't know what the personal reasons were/are for leaving we don't know if circumstances have changed in the mean time

If Gibbes gave notice near the end of February, his notice period runs until the end of November. The IRFU then took March and April to recruit McFarland, so he is unlikely to be at Ulster before the end of January.

As Ulster are inconvenienced so too are La Rochelle taking on a coach who will miss their pre-season and the first three months of the regular season. So if the SRU are asking the IRFU to buy out McFarland's contract (as they are perfectly entitled to do), why shouldn't the IRFU ask La Rochelle to buy out Gibbes' contract as they are entitled to do?

It is surely unacceptable for the IRFU to buy McFarland out of his contract to employ him in July while at the same time continuing to pay Gibbes to work his notice period. Therefore for McFarland to start this summer, La Rochelle would have to agree to take Gibbes early and take over the monies outstanding to him, and the IRFU would have to do the same with the SRU.

The most likely course of action is that Gibbes stays as coach until the end of November, and Peel is a caretaker in December/January until McFarland arrives. It's far from ideal but the coming season is likely to be a very difficult one, so paradoxically it might suit Ulster to explain that away with the coaching flux and development of young players. McFarland would be coming in mid-season with very little expectation, so he could have enough games to assess the players without the pressure of results.

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Isn't there supposed to be a nine month notice period?

Yes and he's going to La Rochelle in November, he gave his notice in Feb/April time so that's around the 9 month mark so why would they owe us

Given that we don't know what the personal reasons were/are for leaving we don't know if circumstances have changed in the mean time

If Gibbes gave notice near the end of February, his notice period runs until the end of November. The IRFU then took March and April to recruit McFarland, so he is unlikely to be at Ulster before the end of January.

As Ulster are inconvenienced so too are La Rochelle taking on a coach who will miss their pre-season and the first three months of the regular season. So if the SRU are asking the IRFU to buy out McFarland's contract (as they are perfectly entitled to do), why shouldn't the IRFU ask La Rochelle to buy out Gibbes' contract as they are entitled to do?

It is surely unacceptable for the IRFU to buy McFarland out of his contract to employ him in July while at the same time continuing to pay Gibbes to work his notice period. Therefore for McFarland to start this summer, La Rochelle would have to agree to take Gibbes early and take over the monies outstanding to him, and the IRFU would have to do the same with the SRU.

The most likely course of action is that Gibbes stays as coach until the end of November, and Peel is a caretaker in December/January until McFarland arrives. It's far from ideal but the coming season is likely to be a very difficult one, so paradoxically it might suit Ulster to explain that away with the coaching flux and development of young players. McFarland would be coming in mid-season with very little expectation, so he could have enough games to assess the players without the pressure of results.

How are Ulster entitled to ask La Rochelle for compensation? He signed with La Rochelle after his release was granted, he's joining La Rochelle at the end of what would have been his notice period if he served it, so either way there is nothing due. Just like Connacht weren't due anything from Bristol or Munster from the SARU for Rassie and Nienaber when they gave their notice.

Ulsters recruitment or McFarland and allowing Gibbes to go are separate issues

For all we know Scotland are asking for silly money to release McFarland and that's where the issue is, it should be an issue that was resolved before confirming him

rodders wrote:I don't see how this is a shambles just standard practice all round with all parties protecting their own interests. The SRU are digging their heals in which is their right to do.
If Ulster want him earlier then they need to pay up or appoint caretaker. I don't see how it has anything to do with Schmidt or the IRFU.

You make it sound like they had no choice but McFarland. If they knew they couldn't get him till January and were ok with a pre-season without a head coach, then that is what I say is a shambles. If it's not important for Pre-season and 3months of a season, then why is it important at all? Sure may as well not bring him in till next summer then. Unless he's so good that we can afford to have a coachless first half of the season and completely turn it around after January. Season Ticket holders should expect to be watching a team play that has a full coaching ticket and giving the season their 100% effort.

rodders wrote:

I think it is a good sign the SRU won't release him as shows he is held in high regard.

As said before, they don't want to keep a guy around who will spill all their info to his new employer (IRFU). McFarland will do very little between July and January. This is purely about money. And I don't blame SRU. Point is, UR knew they wouldn't pay, knew they wouldn't get him and were happy enough to sacrifice half a season on the gamble.
The exact same kind of gamble that worked oh so well for Kiss eh?

clivemcl wrote:
You make it sound like they had no choice but McFarland.

I don't know what choice they had but you certainly don't go for your second choice just because he or she is available sooner. MacFarland is either the man they want or not.

I presume it is not totally unforeseen and have a plan in place for the first part of the season if the worst case happens.

Not keen on Gibbs though remaining though, he obviously has very little respect for the organization or fans.

Whut?

Gibbes is gone. He's at Waikato. He'll leave there in November, after the ITM Cup. Is anyone following any of this?

Scotland, meanwhile, have become the first Tier one nation to lose to America in the pro era. They won't want McFarland coaching their team and then going to Ireland just before the Six Nations, a mere eight months before the RWC. Too much disruption, too much insider knowledge. So they won't want him actually involved that late on. Is the SRU so flush that they can pay Danny Wilson to coach and McFarland to sit around kicking his heels because they won't release him to Ulster for a reasonable buyout?

http://www.the42.ie/dan-mcfarland-ulster-4076940-Jun2018/

Don Alfonso wrote:Whut?

Gibbes is gone. He's at Waikato. He'll leave there in November, after the ITM Cup. Is anyone following any of this?

Scotland, meanwhile, have become the first Tier one nation to lose to America in the pro era. They won't want McFarland coaching their team and then going to Ireland just before the Six Nations, a mere eight months before the RWC. Too much disruption, too much insider knowledge. So they won't want him actually involved that late on. Is the SRU so flush that they can pay Danny Wilson to coach and McFarland to sit around kicking his heels because they won't release him to Ulster for a reasonable buyout?

Waikato are expecting to receive compensation for Gibbes move to La Rochelle in November.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/provincial/104703044/waikato-lose-the-battle-to-keep-jono-gibbes-after-strange-month-of-puzzling-revelations

Gibbes has effectively moved from Clermont to a 4-year deal at La Rochelle via an escape clause to take up a head coaching role at Ulster, and then via a release clause to move to New Zealand. His contract with Ulster was until Feb 2019, which hasn't been honoured, nor has the reason for his early release. If Waikato are able to claim compensation, why shouldn't the IRFU?

Might his circumstances not have changed?

And his Waikato contract has presumably been bought out. He was released from his Ulster one.

Let me posit a scenario.

Jonno Gibbes has a sick parent. In January, he announces he's going home at the end of this season. He wants to look after them. He is told he can be released from his Ulster contract. Once Kiss is gone, Ulster start looking for a long-term replacement Head Coach. Jonno agrees a contract with Waikato back home.

He is told parent doesn't have much longer. Certainly not the two years of his Waikato contract.

He goes to see La Rochelle before his Ulster game. Isn't sure what to do.

Waikato confirm he's still coming - in May, he goes back to NZ and has his picture taken with the rest of his coaching team.

He's told his parent won't see out the summer. His reason for coming back to NZ will be gone. He doesn't especially want to come back to Ulster, who, with the guidance of the IRFU, have gotten the nod from Dan McFarland anyway.

He goes back to La Rochelle, who say they would still be delighted to have him. They agree to pay Waikato out.


Jonno Gibbes was pretty underwhelming as a forwards coach. I'd rather have McFarland, on the strength of all the evidence. But without knowing the whole story, I'm loath to designate him as some kind of snake in the grass.

http://www.the42.ie/irfu-ireland-olding-jackson-nucifora-4076694-Jun2018/

Maybe the IRFU and Nucifora have realised the Carbery experiment was a mistake

For Gibbs he had the famous 6 month notuce clause that the IRFU insist on, the same one as Rassie and Lam used.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pat-lam-admits-he-would-still-be-at-connacht-but-for-the-irfus-insistence-on-a-sixmonth-release-clause-35775924.html

There was no need to say family issues unless it was true, he could just trigger the release like lam or Rassie and walk away.
As such he gave Ulster the 6 months and more and no compensation would be due and I believe there was a family issue at the time as there would be no requirement to make it up.

On a positive note for a change here.
Will Addison has been called into Ireland camp.

"It’s understood Schmidt played a role in luring the 25-year-old to Ulster ahead of next season and his involvement at Ireland training last week suggests he has a strong chance of breaking into the national set-up in the future."

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.the42.ie/dave-kilcoyne-ireland-will-addison-4078256-Jun2018/%3famp=1

https://twitter.com/VicensEmilien/status/1008986087388274688

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44531797

'For the immediate future, there's no thought that they will be considered. They are playing overseas at the moment. If you are playing overseas, you are not considered.'

Have the IRFU changed their policies or did he forget to add in, unless you're Johnny Sexton?

If you were the IRFU and Sexton was to get injured, would you fancy going into a RWC with Joey Carbery as the man at 10?

http://www.the42.ie/joe-dunleavy-donegal-letterkenny-4077404-Jun2018/

Here's hoping this is the start of something.

marty2086 wrote:'For the immediate future, there's no thought that they will be considered. They are playing overseas at the moment. If you are playing overseas, you are not considered.'

Have the IRFU changed their policies or did he forget to add in, unless you're Johnny Sexton?

If you were the IRFU and Sexton was to get injured, would you fancy going into a RWC with Joey Carbery as the man at 10?

If Sexton gets injured just before or in the early stages of the RWC we're screwed unless Carbery improves at an unbelievable rate. It's the one thing that made me think they'd keep PJ at least but it wasn't to be. Now they've seen the kind of player we now have at backup and perhaps the hard-nosed attitude will change. I mean who will we take to the RWC id both Sexton and Carbery were injured?

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:'For the immediate future, there's no thought that they will be considered. They are playing overseas at the moment. If you are playing overseas, you are not considered.'

Have the IRFU changed their policies or did he forget to add in, unless you're Johnny Sexton?

If you were the IRFU and Sexton was to get injured, would you fancy going into a RWC with Joey Carbery as the man at 10?

If Sexton gets injured just before or in the early stages of the RWC we're screwed unless Carbery improves at an unbelievable rate. It's the one thing that made me think they'd keep PJ at least but it wasn't to be. Now they've seen the kind of player we now have at backup and perhaps the hard-nosed attitude will change. I mean who will we take to the RWC id both Sexton and Carbery were injured?

Ian Madigan will be playing at 10 in the Premiership next season, so in an emergency, he could come in. Then, Tyler Bleyendaal could also be an option (who will be big competition for Joey Carbery).

I actually think that Carbery did well enough in the first test for someone who rarely plays in the 10 position. He has got a good temperment.

Ulster have resigned second row Alex Thompson, who had been in the academy a few years ago. Played last season foe Terenure and was in the Ireland club side.

marty2086 wrote:Ulster have resigned second row Alex Thompson, who had been in the academy a few years ago. Played last season foe Terenure and was in the Ireland club side.

We're making signings on the cheap then, saving the moola for a huge outhalf signing.

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Ulster have resigned second row Alex Thompson, who had been in the academy a few years ago. Played last season foe Terenure and was in the Ireland club side.

We're making signings on the cheap then, saving the moola for a huge outhalf signing.

Or to buy out Dan McFarlands release

Thompson though if I remember was one who looked good too a point then plateaued/was blocked/dropped off and then was released, it's good to see that guys who leave and stay in the club game are still being offered a chance

That's twice in quick succession that Scotland have played pretend-financial hardball with Ireland (IRFU)  The WC hosting lack of support was a 'financial' cold blooded business-is-business decision, according to them.  And now this needlessly pedantic McFarland thing.  Are they hoping perhaps to stall a first section of Pro14 season insider knowledge of Glasgow/Edinburgh that Ulster might gain from the ex Scottish coach? Giving Glasgow/Edinburgh a head start into the season?

I hope there comes a time when the IRFU can return all this small time itchy, bitchy, bristling pretend-botherly love crapology from some of our friendly neighbours with interest.

SecretFly wrote:That's twice in quick succession that Scotland have played pretend-financial hardball with Ireland (IRFU)  The WC hosting lack of support was a 'financial' cold blooded business-is-business decision, according to them.  And now this needlessly pedantic McFarland thing.  Are they hoping perhaps to stall a first section of Pro14 season insider knowledge of Glasgow/Edinburgh that Ulster might gain from the ex Scottish coach?  Giving Glasgow/Edinburgh a head start into the season?  

I hope there comes a time when the IRFU can return all this small time itchy, bitchy, bristling pretend-botherly love crapology from some of our friendly neighbours with interest.

I thought that's what Munster was for?

No Munster are there to protect our Southerly shores from Welsh invasions forces, led by Lord Dowlais no less. The Welsh see the red shirts from their landing boats offshore and they think their advance forces have already landed so they go home for the tea.
They still didn't support us holding the WC neither - even though they thought they had taken us over! But that's the Welsh for you, jealous of even their own success

FYI Heineken Cup draw is at about 2.20pm today

https://www.epcrugby.com/video/video-2018-2019-champions-cup-challenge-cup-pool-draws-live/

I'm reading that Steve borthwick applied for the head coaches role.

Scarlets, Racing and Leicester next season

That's not the worst group we could have gotten

Haven't played Tigers in a while and Munster took our record of giving them thier biggest European defeat, now we get a chance to take it back.

If our players are fit and health, our coaches are decent and we sort a good 10 then we can beat all those teams at home. It's then about what we can do away from home.

A lot of 'ifs' there Neil!

Kingshu wrote:Haven't played Tigers in a while and Munster took our record of giving them thier biggest European defeat, now we get a chance to take it back.

Entirely doable if we play as appallingly as we did last season. Welford Road is currently a breached fortress and we can neither attack nor defend consistently or with any real skill.

clivemcl wrote:A lot of 'ifs' there Neil!

Yes indeed, guess that's because there are a lot of unknowns about Ulster right now.