Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Carberry is 22, McPhillips is 21. Is this talk about sticking with McPhillips and hoping he turns out to be a gem maybe a tad naive? Carberry at a year older is being talked about as though he was the second coming and all this despite Sexton and Byrne and a whole backline of stellar players potentially blocking him. By contrast, it's almost as if we only know the name of McPhillips because we had no choice. A year ago the thinking was Jackson and Nelson. We then were saying Cooney can play 10 a bit. Then we signed Lealifano. Surely if McPhillips was the hot prospect, the coaches would have featured him more before Lealifano left.
In fact during Leanlifano's time here wasn't Nelson the preferred bench 10, and indeed started 3 games at 10 before Christmas, but then got injured?

Not meaning to be super negative, I hope I'm wrong. Cooney is a perfect example of a player suddenly shining from nowhere. I guess Ulster coaches know better than me if he's a real prospect worth thrusting into the limelight or not.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Haven't played Tigers in a while and Munster took our record of giving them thier biggest European defeat, now we get a chance to take it back.

Entirely doable if we play as appallingly as we did last season. Welford Road is currently a breached fortress and we can neither attack nor defend consistently or with any real skill.

Both teams are in a rebuilding phrase, its strange to see tigers not in top 4. Normally when a team dominates uou begin to dislike them, like Saracens but when tigers dominated I always liked them or more didn't dislike them as I would have wanted the underdog to win. They were never like Toulon or Saracens though.

Dislike is a funny emotion. Being big spenders is one thing, but what happened at Ulster last season is quite another. I guess it depends on your moral standing.

Farrell set to fill in at Ulster if McFarland appointment delayed

McFarland may not be arrive until midway through the campaign as he's still under contract

At face value, Ulster seem set to start off next season in an even bigger mess than they were at times last season. Their new head coach, Dan McFarland, may not be arriving until midway through the campaign as he still under contract to the Scottish RFU. They also need a new chief executive and they have only one young outhalf, Jonny McPhillips, on their books. Apart from that . . .

Yet it seems that contingency plans are in place to resolve all these problems.

The most pressing is resolving McFarland’s situation with the Scots or, failing that, bringing in some outside help.

“We knew that when we signed Dan we had a clause in his contract, and we accepted that, and if it turns out that that’s the way that it ends up being, then that’s fine,” said IRFU Irish high performance director David Nucifora this week.

“We’ll just deal with that. We do have a bit of a Plan B in place if that’s the case, and we’ll just wait and see what the Scottish Rugby Union decide to do with Dan probably after the (Scottish) tour. Obviously we would like, and Ulster would like, for him to be there at the start of the season but if he can’t be well then we’ll accept that and as I say we’ve got something that we’ll do to support Ulster.”

Nucifora was not in a position to reveal Plan B.

“I can’t tell you just yet.”

It will not be an interim head coach per se, according to Nucifora

Clarity

“No, probably just some help for the coaches up there. We’ll wait and see. I don’t think we’ll have clarity on that until the tours are finished, so we’ll just see when we all get back home after our June tours and just see what the lay of the land is I suppose, and see if the scenario has changed somewhat.”

But, in that scenario, the widespread belief is Ireland assistant/defensive coach Andy Farrell would spend the first few months of the season as a glorified, interim head coach (thus, including interim head coaches, making him Ulster ninth in a dozen years).

Regarding McFarland, Nucifora said it was not a case paying the Scots compensation. “No, there’s no reason to do that. They’re not asking for money. No one has asked for money. At the moment they just wanted to utilise his services.”

Towards the end of last season, Ulster were described as “a bit of a basket case” by Brian O’Driscoll, a view which former player Stephen Ferris said was “totally fair”, and were McFarland not come aboard until January there must be a risk of further disruption.

“I think that’s the worst case scenario,” said Nucifora. “Do I think it will be January? No I don’t. I think there will be a resolution before then so I am not concerned that it’s going to be January. There are lots of things going on in Ulster. There is a major rebuild underway. The coaching team that remains has only been in place for a year so really they’re still new. Obviously Dan is coming in as the head coach, there’s a new CEO going to be appointed, there’s a new head of strength and conditioning, a new head of physiotherapy that we are in throes of appointing up there. So it is a total rebuild that’s going on and I think that’s exciting. That’s positive.”


Golden generation

Yet as a relatively golden generation comes to an end with a welter of retirements and the departure of Charles Piatau, Ulster have been lagging way behind Leinster, and arguably the other provinces, in producing home grown players – the emergence of Jacob Stockdale covering a multitude.

“Yes but there are some good players coming through their system,” maintained Nucifora. “Admittedly it’s not the volume that’s coming out of Leinster but that’s probably proportionate to the population. But there is some good talent up there, young talent, and in the last eight weeks of the season you started to see that. Some of the young players were given opportunity finally and showed what they could do. It was great that they managed to win that play-off game and maintain their place in Europe.”

“I just think that when we get all of these things ironed out, it will definitely help. It won’t be overnight. It’s unrealistic to think that it will just turnaround on a sixpence but as I said, if we are going to do it, we’ve got to do it properly. There is a major rebuild going on up there and we need to make sure that we get the right people doing the right jobs. If we do that, then the right talent will come through.”

Nucifora confirmed the union had rejected Ulster’s proposal to sign Springboks outhalf Elton Jantjies, albeit Joey Carbery’s preference for Munster clearly went against the high performance director’s preference that he join Leinster.

“Our first option is always to find an Irish solution whatever possible because we need to make sure the system is strong with Irish options. The Elton Jantjies thing that was brought up, it didn’t make any sense because we want to try and find an Irish solution.”

Carbery

“Yes, we hoped that Joey might take up that opportunity. It didn’t pan out that way is because that was the players choice but was Jantjies the right option? For example, he’s going to be playing in the World Cup no doubt, he’s going to be away for large chunks of time. South Africa we knew were recalling their players. At least we’ve got a better line of communication now with the South African coach,” noted Nucifora ironically in reference to Rassie Erasmus.


“We are aware of a few things . So that didn’t really make any sense. Going forward for them, we still hope there is an Irish option for them that we are working on but would we consider a foreigner to help them if we had to? Yeah, we would, if it made sense, absolutely. But our preference would be to find a good Irish alternative if we can do that.”

Nucifora said this would not be one of the outhalves on Munster’s roster, nor even from one of the other provinces, with Ian Madigan and Gareth Steenson also being ruled out.

“Look we are always trying to find solutions and we’ve got to think laterally at times so we try and do that. We want our teams to be successful. We don’t go out there trying to make things hard for them. We actually go out there to try and make it easier for them and we just ask hard questions at times to try and make sure that the solutions are genuine solutions.”

Genuinely one of the worst interviews I've ever read about Ulster. They really don't care about us.

So we can't get an overseas outhalf because they really want us to have an Irish one. Only it can't be from another province. Or an Irish player who's playing overseas. Well guess what David, that leaves exactly nobody. Oh, except for the one you kicked out. Somebody please get Nucifora's head out of his own backside. Another wasted season with no coach and no 10.

JmD wrote:Genuinely one of the worst interviews I've ever read about Ulster. They really don't care about us.

Funny I thought it was really positive. The organisation has been a disaster since the pro era began and the IRFU are supporting a major restructuring rather than paper over the cracks as we always do.

They haven't ruled anything out that I can see but have made it clear the options they prefer.

The suggestion of Jankies is beyond idiotic and again thankfully we have someone showing sense, rather than letting us blow big money on an average player who'd be missing for big chunks of the season.

People will read what they want I suppose.

Sorry rodders but Jantjies at the time Ulster were trying to sign him wouldn't have been unavailable for large chunks as up until a month ago the Springboks weren't picking overseas players. As things stand Ulster are without a fly half, the IRFU have allowed Munster to end up with possibly 5 IQ fly halves and Ulster 1...maybe 2 but are almost forbidden from signing a NIQ one. There were 9 IQ fly halves getting regular game time last season across the provinces plus Carbery. The problem seems to be that Joe has hung his hat on Carbery and that's left Ulster the odd one out in getting the prodigal son a new home

There are positives and negatives to it all, it seems players past and present are sad to see Jonny Davis go. It's not a great environment to create one week before pre season starts

Kingshu wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Haven't played Tigers in a while and Munster took our record of giving them thier biggest European defeat, now we get a chance to take it back.

Entirely doable if we play as appallingly as we did last season. Welford Road is currently a breached fortress and we can neither attack nor defend consistently or with any real skill.

Both teams are in a rebuilding phrase, its strange to see tigers not in top 4. Normally when a team dominates uou begin to dislike them, like Saracens but when tigers dominated I always liked them or more didn't dislike them as I would have wanted the underdog to win. They were never like Toulon or Saracens though.

The problem we have is that the fans won't accept a transition season and the fans own the club. The pressure on the board and coaches is then massive to continue playing towards the top end of the competitions whilst also rebuilding. We've failed miserably to do either of late but at least the academy looks to be working again (all three tries from England in the under 20s final were by Tigers players with five in the squad).

Sadly we've not strengthened the tight five anywhere near enough.

As long as Ulster still display the ferocious pack skills you usually do you'll only need a kicker to win the game.

Rodders, to me the whole thing could reads as, "Haha yeah it is a mess isn't it... Oh well."

I get that you don't want Jantjes but please answer me this: Who else is available? We literally just need a body who can play 10, because right now we have one. One. For a whole season.

Think with the tigers games we are going to be talkimg up the other team as favourites. Havent travelled for an Ulster game before but this one intrests me. Tigers have great fans, and would be a great venue to visit.
Hopefully by the time it comes round both teams have some form and not as expected if Ulster are changing coach from first time we play to next.

When Nucifora said this would not be one of the outhalves on Munster’s roster, nor even from one of the other provinces, with Ian Madigan and Gareth Steenson also being ruled out.
Who does that leave? Is there an Irish qualied OH with more experince than McPhillips somewhere we are not aware off?
Is he paving the way for Jackson to return in 2 years? What do we do in the meantime? He wouldn't leave Munster in this mess.

I think the reality is somewhere in between. It seems Nucifora (and the IRFU) are committed to this plan they have. Thats good and positive but I wish we would get off the subject of a ten and find some answers to the other glaring holes in the squad. Loosehead, Lock, anywhere in the outside backs as an example. The state of our squad is such that we could have Graham Henry, steve Hansen and Wayne Smith in charge and it wouldnt matter. The depth isnt there. They can be serious about a revamp but until we are allowed to spend the money we make its irrelevant.

marty2086 wrote:Sorry rodders but Jantjies at the time Ulster were trying to sign him wouldn't have been unavailable for large chunks as up until a month ago the Springboks weren't picking overseas players.

Nucifera states clearly that they are in contact with Erasmus so were aware of what their plans were in terms of calling up overseas players, including Yanties.

Ulster may well not have been aware during their initial contact but it clearly was factored into the decision not to bring him in.

what I dont understand is that surely those periods where he wouldnt be available are the opportunities for us to blood Mcphillips. Is that not a positive?

He says "there is an Irish option for them that we are working on" anyone know who that is as he rules out all the options I know off?

https://extra.ie/2017/10/30/sport/rugby/zebo-joins-55-players-irish-abroad

Here's a list from earlier in the season. Once you rule out Madigan and Steenson, in short, there's nobody.

Maybe when he says 'irish option' he just means an Irish qualified option. As in somebody with a parent or grandparent.

Although perhaps not all fantastic standard, a whopping 10 of the 55 on that list are out-halves. How many are either better than or better prospects than McPhillips?

That said, it's not just somebody better we need, it's an experienced mentor type player we need.

But maybe at this stage we just need to take the best OH we can lay our hands on.

Kingshu wrote:He says "there is an Irish option for them that we are working on" anyone know who that is as he rules out all the options I know off?

He actually didn't rule anyone out other than Janties.

If you read his actual response when asked if the player was at the other provinces he said "not necessarily".

Given negotiations are ongoing and the player(s) will be under contract, do people honestly think he's going to give names when asked? I wouldn't read to much into it.

Seen Jack Carthy's name floating around, given they have signed David Horwitz that seems plausible, Ronaldson is another option.

That list doesn’t include players with Irish parents/grandparents we are not aware off.

For example Mike Haley and Will Addison are not on that list and both had Irish heritage, is there an OH with an Irish parent/grandparent we are unaware of but the IRFU are talking to?

I believe Simon Hickey may be of Irish heritage maybe we can nap him from Edinburgh, to annoy the Scots more?

Is there someone that we suddenly find out they could play for Ireland like, Will Addison, playing at out half out there?

clivemcl wrote:Although perhaps not all fantastic standard, a whopping 10 of the 55 on that list are out-halves. How many are either better than or better prospects than McPhillips?

That said, it's not just somebody better we need, it's an experienced mentor type player we need.

But maybe at this stage we just need to take the best OH we can lay our hands on.

MacGinty also isn't IQ so that's another off the list

rodders wrote:
Seen Jack Carthy's name floating around, given they have signed David Horwitz that seems plausible, Ronaldson is another option.

Ronaldson has mostly been playing at 12 though hasn't he? Could be useful to cover there too but hardly better than Janjties

Jake Gordon, the Scrum Half called up to the Wallabies squad is IQ (until Saturday). It was in some article I read but now can't find.

More IQ players out there than we know of. But IRFU surely know well. Somebody at IRFU needs to leak that overseas IQ players list. It would be nice to do some fantasy shopping!

rodders wrote:

Kingshu wrote:He says "there is an Irish option for them that we are working on" anyone know who that is as he rules out all the options I know off?

He actually didn't rule anyone out other than Janties.

If you read his actual response when asked if the player was at the other provinces he said "not necessarily".

Given negotiations are ongoing and the player(s) will be under contract, do people honestly think he's going to give names when asked? I wouldn't read to much into it.

Seen Jack Carthy's name floating around, given they have signed David Horwitz that seems plausible, Ronaldson is another option.

For the42.ie he said "When asked if the Irish option that they are “working on” was presently at Munster, Nucifora said, “not necessarily, no” before confirming that the player in mind was not at any of the three other provinces."

I don't know where Steenson being ruled out comes from, but Madigan is ruled out.

I can't see it being Steenson, I'd say he is well settled with an eye on moving into coaching with Chiefs.

Think it means an IQ player that we are unaware of. European based players would already have contracts for next year, and it doesn't look like the IRFU are much use in getting McFarland early, so don't think they would could but out a players contract.

That would suggest a SH player. Anyone any ideas? Non capped super rugby OH?

There was talk a while ago the DN made munster his pet project, with the clear out at Ulster, maybe he sees he can have more influence and make us his pet project?

Daniel Kirkpatrick sounds Irishy.

clivemcl wrote:Daniel Kirkpatrick sounds Irishy.

Not much point in that calibre of overseas player, at least Keatley could play 12 and 15 if needby.

Interesting Madigan is too expensive but we could have had Jantjies. Madigan must have cast a spell on the person writing the cheque

toml wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Daniel Kirkpatrick sounds Irishy.

Not much point in that calibre of overseas player, at least Keatley could play 12 and 15 if needby.

Interesting Madigan is too expensive but we could have had Jantjies. Madigan must have cast a spell on the person writing the cheque

Madigan is under contract at Bristol so he'll be on a handsome wage and Bristol would be looking for a good old chunk of compensation. They have a rich man writing the cheques.

Madigan reported to be on €500,000 salary even if he halved that to come to us he would still be over paid.
Hes only ever become a first choice 10 in the 2nd tier of rugby.
If he quartered his wage it should be considered, but who in their right mind would quarter thier wage?

Jantjies would have been cheaper than Madigan..

I don't know why he keeps getting mentioned.

Ulster have just started advertising today for Jonny Davis' replacement.. preseason starts today

Kingshu wrote:Madigan reported to be on €500,000 salary even if he halved that to come to us he would still be over paid.
Hes only ever become a first choice 10 in the 2nd tier of rugby.
If he quartered his wage it should be considered, but who in their right mind would quarter thier wage?

Jantjies would have been cheaper than Madigan..

I don't know why he keeps getting mentioned.

Certainly not now. He probably knows now that his International ship has sailed and he missed it so he doesn't have to 'sacrifice' personal gain anymore for a shot at the Ireland jersey. If someone is willing to pay him 500,000 for his services anywhere in the world then he's going to take it.
I think his asking price would only go down if he felt he could push his way back into contention for Ireland.

How can you be worth 500k and not on international contention?
If he’s not back in the picture even with Hackson out of the picture, then I don’t see him maintaining his earnings or anywhere close once his contract expires.

Bristol are known for throwing their money about. It's also beneficial to have some key players available during international periods particularly if you expect to be in a relegation scrap because those are the times you can look to gain points from weakened teams up the top end of the table.

marty2086 wrote:Ulster have just started advertising today for Jonny Davis' replacement.. preseason starts today

Talk about expecting someone to hit the ground running.

clivemcl wrote:How can you be worth 500k and not on international contention?
If he’s not back in the picture even with Hackson out of the picture, then I don’t see him maintaining his earnings or anywhere close once his contract expires.

If someone is willing to pay it, that's what you're worth; until that paymaster doesn't want to pay that price for you anymore.

And on a second take on the query. Ireland are a pretty tough and exacting unit these days to get into and stay in. I'd say there are lots of 500,000 plus players in Europe that couldn't get into this Ireland side now...even with a proverbial granny

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Ulster have just started advertising today for Jonny Davis' replacement.. preseason starts today

Talk about expecting someone to hit the ground running.

Think they are more expecting them to play catch up, all we need is someone coming in and saying that they want to do things differently and the players are starting over again when it comes to how they do things

At least with McFarland in place he can maybe communicate ideas and a plan, though the question is with Farrell being the back up plan and McFarland not in place. Who exactly is in charge of training?

....a man called Shane Logan, I think.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Ulster have just started advertising today for Jonny Davis' replacement.. preseason starts today

Talk about expecting someone to hit the ground running.

Think they are more expecting them to play catch up, all we need is someone coming in and saying that they want to do things differently and the players are starting over again when it comes to how they do things

At least with McFarland in place he can maybe communicate ideas and a plan, though the question is with Farrell being the back up plan and McFarland not in place. Who exactly is in charge of training?

Isn't that the whole point of getting rid of JD - to get someone in who does things differently? This was reported at the end of May so what genius sat on their hands for a month?

Any news on GG's replacement, or are UR waiting for an injury backlog to make sure the new person is completely saturated with work?

Do we not already have an injury backlog?

I don't know if JD was sacked/let go because of how he did things or because he was so engrained into the culture of Ulster and needed to be removed to change that. If Im not mistaken, doesn't he live, or at least did live, with some of the players?

Everything I read about Ulster lately causes me to facepalm. It is therefore very fitting that our emblem is the red hand.

On a more serious note, I heartily recommend everyone has a look at Tommy O'Hagan ripping the hole out of Stephen Ferris on his Twitter feed.

clivemcl wrote:How can you be worth 500k and not on international contention?
If he’s not back in the picture even with Hackson out of the picture, then I don’t see him maintaining his earnings or anywhere close once his contract expires.

I think the point is he's paid €500k not to be in international contention. If you agree to play in the Championship, you agree to forgo a career in international rugby for a Tier 1 nation.

I see Rodney was at training yesterday along with Ross Kane, seems both have been resigned giving us Moore, Herbst, Kane, O'Toole and Rodney at TH

Moore looks a bit trimmer too

marty2086 wrote:I see Rodney was at training yesterday along with Ross Kane, seems both have been resigned giving us Moore, Herbst, Kane, O'Toole and Rodney at TH

Moore looks a bit trimmer too

An undisclosed contract extension for Rodders according to the BelTel. Perhaps with some proper coaching we could see an improved AhYou version 2.0, that's if we can get a full coaching team together in time for our first kick off.

In more signing news we have signed up to 5 more years of Kukri. I hate Kukri, why can we not get Adidas.....oh yeah we're poison.

I see it was Adam McKendry in the BT, it was reporting yesterday Rodney had left but had to be pointed out to him he was at training

Don't know if it means much but from the pictures posted on Facebook, Jared was the one with the whistle. Is he the man in charge until we have someone in charge or someone in charge until the man who is meant to be in charge takes charge?

Also spotted Stockdale in the background on the training pitch, straight back at it off the plane from Oz

Not sure if anyone saw Janties performance on Saturday but Ulster got a close escape.

Without doubt one of the worst performances by an international 10 in recent history.

As I mentioned on here some time ago if Rodney is kept it will be as an attempt to turn him into a passable LH.
We don't need him at TH - Moore, Herbst, Kane, O'Toole
We only have Warwick, McCall, VdeMerwe, O'Hagan at LH

If, as seems likely there are no NIQ to come in - this will be seen as a 1 year experiment/stop gap.
If it works happy days, if not Rodney will be looking for alternative employment in 19/20
He has played there before but I don't know how he did

I agree Rodders - Janties was an expensive bullet dodged

Alex Thompson has returned after a spell at Tenure - a good prospect from what I have seen.
Looks like he went down there to get a few miles under his belt, I was concerned we might have lost him

i've tried to be positive but im struggling to find any way in which next season isnt going to be another slogfest. McFarland and co will have to work miracles imo. The squad is hideously thin.

We aren't in crisis yet. Who is in charge of the senior side at the moment? Soper?

I do wish Ulster could get all the turning over done before the start of the season for once.

Best guess is that last season was us bottoming out, hopefully some young players really grow into the jersey and pull us forward.

We really could do with an experienced head at 10 though. Bad times for Ulster when we'd be happy to sign Ian Keatley

Im not convinced that we have hit the bottom. IMO we are a Coetzee injury away from a worse season. Theres still an awful lot to prove for guys like Timoney etc albeit they showed they can up their game. Consistency needs to be the watchword and then back it up in big games.

The depth in the backs is ridiculous

I'm not sure we've hit rock bottom just yet. We've started preseason without a full coaching team let alone a full squad. We have one single outhalf in McPhillips without any additions on the horizon and if Coetzee turns in a sick note again this season I think we could struggle to avoid the challenge cup in 2019/20.

My view is results wise we have further to fall

BUT

managerial ability and attitude wise we most certainly have turned the corner.
Its a different healthier place now - Logan going has lifted a cloud off of the place.
The IRFU have decided to sweep away an old rotten, failed structure - I think they are right.

We need to convince the we are on an upward direction next year, through the development of our highly talented youngsters.
If we do we will get the NIQ we need the following year - remember we have no NIQ contract (including Projects) going into 19-20.
We believe we have the coaching structure right, or on the way to being right, but the new CEO is key.
From what I am hearing it will someone who understands the game, because they played at a senior level - it needs to be

It’s Constable. Thought that was already leaked? Felt like it was more than a guess/Tom our. But can’t now remember the source.

I was told be a colleague who seems to have solid contacts that it was Constable. If it's true he'll have to give up any conflicting interests/hobbies