Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

Ben Leicester have been fortunate to find wealthy owners who saved us from a deal of trouble but they could not be accused of throwing stupid money around and disregarding the fans.The PL winning team was assembled from a bunch of frees ,has beens and cheap buys I think Ulloa was the top buy at about £9m.What they then did as some players moved on for big money was start throwing some of that money about to try to maintain position with varying degrees of success.The Chairman gives away free beer and cakes on his birthday and has given a lot to local organisations including a childrens hospital ,We have been very very lucky.
I think the German teams have a different voting structure where fans have a big say.

[McLaren]

Can someone explain what England see in Declan Rice? Looks like a championship centre back asked to play in midfield. So strange.

[beninho]

Fukin love football

[dynamark]

The 10 years statue thing was just a tabloid headline.Repeat the judges do not make it up on the day there is a book of sentence rules and they have to work within that .Things do get changed from time to time but they have a range of penalties they can issue.Good result tonight but hell it was boring for 65 minutes I dont like saying it but trip over Grealish made a difference

[beninho]

But the government did set out with a bill where the aim was to increase the maximum sentence to a memorial to upto 10 years. It was a government bill.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-factsheets/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-criminal-damage-to-memorials-factsheet

Not sure where its just tabloid nonsense comes from?

Now, it may never happen, and was probably nothing more then a publicity stunt in a look at us protecting statues kind of way.

But, in theory you could get a longer sentence for criminal damage to a memorial then for r*** or killing someone.

[beninho]

Why has this law been introduced?
There has been widespread upset about the damage and desecration of memorials with a recent spate over the summer of 2020. It has long been considered that the law is not sufficiently robust in this area. Incidences of damage and desecration of memorials are typically of low monetary value, but very often carry a high sentimental and emotional impact. As the law previously stood, courts were obliged to try such cases summarily where the value of damage was assessed as being less than £5,000, which, in turn, meant the full range of sentencing powers was not available


Just read that, it was just pandering to the easily offended snowflake right wingers.

[super_realist]

But the government did set out with a bill where the aim was to increase the maximum sentence to a memorial to upto 10 years. It was a government bill.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-factsheets/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-criminal-damage-to-memorials-factsheet

Not sure where its just tabloid nonsense comes from?

Now, it may never happen, and was probably nothing more then a publicity stunt in a look at us protecting statues kind of way.

But, in theory you could get a longer sentence for criminal damage to a memorial then for r*** or killing someone.

Only a moron would genuinely think anyone would ever get ten years for it.
We can't even successfully prosecute the majority of sexual crimes. Absolutely no one was ever going to go for jail for 1 year, let alone 10 for criminal damage. Behave.

The tabloid reference was an analogy for how you responded to the story. You surely never believed anyone would or could receive a 10 year sentence, yet you accuse those who want statues to remain and be untarnished as behaving disproportionately? What is pretending that people are going to 10 years for statue vandalism other than an over the top sensationalist reaction?

[beninho]

I'm just quoting the law brought in by the government. Whether it will happen or not, and it's unlikely is another matter entirely.

Though, if unlikely why do it in the first place?

Though still back to the original point 8 years for kicking soneone to death still seems a tad light.

[super_realist]

10 years as a sentence was never brought in. It was never passed through Parliament. It is not law.

Your use of language is terrible. Atkinson was not kicked to death.

[beninho]

Sorry proposed law. Do you think it will get voted down? Or will they pull it, knowing its all a load of nonsense.

Regarding his death, medical experts said without the kicks to the head and tasering, he would not have died. He was kicked and tasered to death.

[super_realist]

Of course it won't go through as a 10 year sentence that is preposterous.
. As for the death certificate, I don't really care. It was how you used the language.

Saying someone has been kicked to death implies intent and some sort of mad frenzy.

If you die from one punch, you don't claim you've been punched to death, you may have died as a result of the punch, bit to say you've been punched to death would be laughable .

No one meant to kill Atkinson, who by all accounts was being a Muppet, bmthe officer exceeded his limit of restraint, but he didn't "kick him to death"

That sort of terminology is not permitted in a manslaughter case

Yet another tabloid esque response from you.

[beninho]

In your medical opinion. Was the kicks to the head a contributing factor to the death of Dalian Atkinson?

[westisbest]

Read that Atkinson had two bootlace prints in his forehead, that would defiantly contribute to his death. Also he was tasered for 33 seconds which is a hell of a lot longer than should be.

Disgraceful stuff.

[McLaren]

Super

I just hate the sort of reckless behaviour this cop showed, drunk driving would be similar, where someone removes all empathy or care about others wellbeing.

I wouldn't care if this police officer got 30 years. Can't imagine he is offering much to society anyway.

[dynamark]

Guys none of us has probably ever been in a situation where you are genuinely in serious fear for your life and this is what our police and emergency services sometimes face we expect them to be able to deal with it as a part of their job but sadly it doesnt always work out.

[McLaren]

dyna

Don't be so naive. That cop never for one second thought his life was in danger. He just had a hard on for going rough on suspects. It was literally overkill. Throw away the key.

[super_realist]

In your medical opinion. Was the kicks to the head a contributing factor to the death of Dalian Atkinson?

I don't know and I don't care, I was questioning your use of sensationalist, Sun newspaper headline language which would not be permitted in such a case and any barrister who used such language would have to retract it.
. Its clear the police officer was out of line and he's been rightly charged with manslaughter for which he has been given 8 years, but that doesn't mean or even imply that he kicked him to death.

Atkinson was not a well man by all accounts and whilst that isn't an excuse could also have contributed to his death.
Atkinson was also reported as being incredibly uncooperative and confrontational, which may not have led the police officer to fear for his well being, but may explain whilst he (illegally) got overly physical with him.

It's not like this would have happened at Atkinson been happy to go down the station and acted like an adult.

By the way, I'm not victim blaming here, Atkinson deserved better treatment from the police, but his resistance clearly didn't help.

[beninho]

I'm not a barrister and this isn't court.

Whilst he wasn't well, both physically and mentally he wouldn't have died that night without being tasered and kicked in the head.

I don't see anywhere that states he wasn't acting like an adult, albeit an adult having a mental health crisis.

8 years is still ridiculous and I hope it gets increased substantially.

[super_realist]

Jesus, 6 months I've been away and your comprehension has not got improved.

Atkinson was not kicked to death. Do you not understand that sort of language implies certain things, one of which is purpose.

He was not kicked to death.

As for whether you think its too lenient or not, that's up to you, but the law only allows for 10 years, and he probably got 8 because Atkinson was resisting arrest and therefore there is an argument for allowing some sort of physical force to restrain Atkinson behaving like an arse.

Unfortunately that copper crossed the line and Atkinson died as a result of a number of factors, head injury being one, but that isn't being "kicked to death".
Had he only used the taser for the mandated 5 seconds and not kicked his head, he may still have died, but that doesn't mean the policeman deserves 10 years when there is clearly other circumstances in and around the arrest which don't make it a clear cut 10 year sentence.

Glad you went into housing and not law.

[beninho]

Isn't maximum for manslaughter life?

Behavi ng ike an arse? Modern view on mental health there....

[Soul Requiem]

There are a couple of things to consider here.

1. Dalian Atkinson verbally and physically threatened his father, stating falsefully that he'd just killed his siblings and was now there for him. The use of force was justified based on that but he was found to have used unnecessary and unreasonable force therefore a manslaughter charge seems fair.
2. Benjamin Monk was charged with murder and the trial proceeded upon those charges, he was found not guilty of Murder but guilty of Manslaughter. I therefore don't believe the use of language 'kicked to death' is that over the top when considering that. I do believe it's common practice in this country to prefer a charge of murder with manslaughter then introduced as an option.

[Duty281]

Isn't maximum for manslaughter life?

Behavi ng ike an arse?  Modern view on mental health there....

No, because the man in question was found guilty of unlawful act manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of 24 years. But that's at the very high culpability range, which this never was. The judge decided it fell into category 'C', which carries a range of 3-9 years.

[beninho]

I guess what we know is the guy was found guilty of killing him, due to his actions. His actions included excessive tasering and kicking him in the head. Therefore it's probably fair to say that he was tasered and kicked to cause his death.

[beninho]

Isn't maximum for manslaughter life?

Behavi ng ike an arse?  Modern view on mental health there....

No, because the man in question was found guilty of unlawful act manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of 24 years. But that's at the very high culpability range, which this never was. The judge decided it fell into category 'C', which carries a range of 3-9 years.

Thanks for clearing. It will be interesting to see if the appeal against the lenient sentence comes to anything.

[Duty281]

I guess what we know is the guy was found guilty of killing him, due to his actions. His actions included excessive tasering and kicking him in the head.  Therefore it's probably fair to say that he was tasered and kicked to cause his death.

It depends how you define it. The judge said in his sentencing remarks that the kicks delivered, while unreasonable, did not cause serious injury and would not have caused death in a healthy person. A contributing factor, yes, but not the sole cause, or even joint cause.

[beninho]

But he wasn't a healthy person. Surely the taser and kicks must have had an impact on his death, or how can he be guilty ?

Housing law I can go on all day, other law, im just curious about.

[Soul Requiem]

But he wasn't a healthy person.  Surely the taser and kicks must have had an impact on his death, or how can he be guilty ?  

Housing law I can go on all day, other law, im just curious about.

I don't think that is really a factor in this.

[beninho]

Now serious failings in the way the police handled the Clapham vigil and Bristol protests.

I've got family in the met, but they are really taking a pounding at the moment and unfortunately a lot is on them.

[beninho]

But he wasn't a healthy person.  Surely the taser and kicks must have had an impact on his death, or how can he be guilty ?  

Housing law I can go on all day, other law, im just curious about.

I don't think that is really a factor in this.

It may not be, im not an expert. But isn't the person killed, taken into account with the actions taken? For example an older person killed by giving them a certain drug, if that drug wouldn't have killed a healthy person is that considered? Or death by dangerous driving involving a child?

Just curious, as I don't know.

[Duty281]

But he wasn't a healthy person.  Surely the taser and kicks must have had an impact on his death, or how can he be guilty ?  

Housing law I can go on all day, other law, im just curious about.

The kicks (and taser) were a contributing factor to Atkinson's death, but because the kicks did not cause serious injury in themselves and were considered to only be of moderate force, it is only a lower category of unlawful act manslaughter hence the lower sentence.

It is unlikely the sentence will be increased for this reason. 8 years is actually surprisingly high* considering the mitigation that was submitted and apparent previous good character of the officer involved. If the kicks did cause serious injury and/or were of excessive force, the sentence would be as high as 16 years.

*Not saying I agree with it. Just that the judge has gone for the higher end of the 3-9 years guideline, despite many degrees of mitigation.

[dynamark]

Ben bit of advice if you would be so kind .I have a tenant I need to give notice to for non payment am I right in thinking Im better waiting to 1st Aug when I can give 2 months rather than now it would be 4 months.
You have to feel for anyone who gets into a bad mental state years ago they would have been sent away to an institution ,In Leicester we had the Towers 'hospital' and Carlton Hayes(big establishments) where I live both long gone thank goodness in many ways but it sometimes leave very disturbed individuals to try to manage in a bad place.

[super_realist]

Isn't maximum for manslaughter life?

Behavi ng ike an arse?  Modern view on mental health there....

Mental health. The new back pain.
Not want to do something? "I've got mental health issues"

Not want to take responsibility for something" I've got mental health issues "

It's a get out of jail excuse these days. Just having mental health issues doesn't mean it is a reasonable excuse to resist arrest.
Mental health doesn't necessitate a violent response a la Atkinson.

Although we are more aware of mental health issues these days, it's all to easy for people to just use it whenever they want to be treated in such a way in which they are excused for bad behaviour.

[beninho]

Notice Periods are bloody confusing at the moment!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nearlylegal.co.uk/2021/05/less-notice-more-forms-end-of-eviction-ban/amp/

If housing officers struggle I fear for landlords.

And check you gave Epc, gas and electricity certs, deposit certs and right to rent guides!

[super_realist]

It must be difficult Ben.
It really favours the scrote tenent doesn't it?

[beninho]

It must be difficult Ben.
It really favours the scrote tenent doesn't it?

Generally it doesn't, as long as the ll does everything correctly, which they should, but don't! It's just gone mad with the constant changes due to covid regs. Aswell as the late notifications and lack of courts and bailiffs anyway. Which has seen more illegal evictions, which the police do next to nothing about.

[dynamark]

Thanks Ben .I, trying to keep them on board but loosing patience,Just had a look at tickets for Scottish open but all sold out maybe wales celtic manor in a few weeks for me summer hols

[beninho]

It seems like a thoroughly decent person won in batley. Even with the horrific Galloway trying to split the vote fir the Tories. Why anyobe would think him a person to vote for is beyond me.

[super_realist]

It seems like a thoroughly decent person won in batley. Even with the horrific Galloway trying to split the vote fir the Tories. Why anyobe would think him a person to vote for is beyond me.

I wouldn't want to be an MP in Batley with a baying mob of Muslim idiots camped outside a school dishing out death threats to a teacher trying to do his job.

Labour majority went from 4000 to 350. Stsrmer is doing what we all thougjt was impossible, somehow actually being less popular then Corbyn

[JAS]

Now serious failings in the way the police handled the Clapham vigil and Bristol protests.

I've got family in the met, but they are really taking a pounding at the moment and unfortunately a lot is on them.

I too have family in the police (partners 2 sons) and yes they are taking a pounding at the moment, not helped by the vagueness of the Covid rules/guidelines as well as the MASSIVE understaffing/underfunding. Have a look at Wiltshire on a map (exclude Swindon because that's a separate unitary authority), on some nightshifts my partner's son is one of only 4 (yes FOUR) officers covering the whole Northern half of the county so the towns of Marlborough, Devizes, Tidworth, Calne, Chippenham, Melksham, Corsham as well as the villages. One night (pre-Covid) a massive fight kicked off in a pub in one of the villages. Two of them arrived and were massively outnumbered, called for backup but the other two were dealing with an RTA on the other edge of the patch. They had to call (and hope) for backup from Swindon. Bottom line is they're under a lot of pressure in those situations, that's no excuse to wading in Tazer first, second & third but I can understand why they would want to defuse a situation asap to stop it escalating. I don't for one second think Wiltshire is unique in terms of staffing levels.

[beninho]

Now serious failings in the way the police handled the Clapham vigil and Bristol protests.

I've got family in the met, but they are really taking a pounding at the moment and unfortunately a lot is on them.

I too have family in the police (parters 2 sons) and yes they are taking a pounding at the moment, not helped by the vagueness of the Covid rules/guidelines as well as the MASSIVE understaffing/underfunding. Have a look at Wiltshire on a map (exclude Swindon because that's a separate unitary authority), on some nightshifts my partner's son is one of only 4 (yes FOUR) officers covering the whole Northern half of the county so the towns of Marlborough, Devizes, Tidworth, Calne, Chippenham, Melksham, Corsham as well as the villages. One night (pre-Covid) a massive fight kicked off in a pub in one of the villages. Two of them arrived and were massively outnumbered, called for backup but the other two were dealing with an RTA on the other edge of the patch. They had to call (and hope) for backup from Swindon. Bottom line is they're under a lot of pressure in those situations, that's no excuse to wading in Tazer first, second & third but I can understand why they would want to defuse a situation asap to stop it escalating. I don't for one second think Wiltshire is unique in terms of staffing levels.

I think staffing is a big thing. My Brother in law, basically says people are being rushed through, and therefore background checks aren't fully completed, and people aren't passing basic fitness tests, but being passed.

[beninho]

Cobham Council going Lib Dem. Only a council, but continued the trend of the leafy areas going to the lib dems in council elections.

[JAS]

Now serious failings in the way the police handled the Clapham vigil and Bristol protests.

I've got family in the met, but they are really taking a pounding at the moment and unfortunately a lot is on them.

I too have family in the police (parters 2 sons) and yes they are taking a pounding at the moment, not helped by the vagueness of the Covid rules/guidelines as well as the MASSIVE understaffing/underfunding. Have a look at Wiltshire on a map (exclude Swindon because that's a separate unitary authority), on some nightshifts my partner's son is one of only 4 (yes FOUR) officers covering the whole Northern half of the county so the towns of Marlborough, Devizes, Tidworth, Calne, Chippenham, Melksham, Corsham as well as the villages. One night (pre-Covid) a massive fight kicked off in a pub in one of the villages. Two of them arrived and were massively outnumbered, called for backup but the other two were dealing with an RTA on the other edge of the patch. They had to call (and hope) for backup from Swindon. Bottom line is they're under a lot of pressure in those situations, that's no excuse to wading in Tazer first, second & third but I can understand why they would want to defuse a situation asap to stop it escalating. I don't for one second think Wiltshire is unique in terms of staffing levels.

I think staffing is a big thing. My Brother in law, basically says people are being rushed through, and therefore background checks aren't fully completed, and people aren't passing basic fitness tests, but being passed.

Yep, apparently 16 week basic training has been scrapped, so new recruits being thrown to the wolves on the street without even the most basic concepts having been drummed into them...calamity just waiting to happen somewhere. So where does the buck stop if say an untrained new recruit either kills somebody or gets killed dealing with a situation? The new recruit? the supervising Sergeant? the Chief Constable? The Home Sec?

[McLaren]

Stsrmer is doing what we all thougjt was impossible, somehow  actually being less popular then Corbyn

And I think this supports the point I have been making for several years now that labour's decline is less about the personalities involved and more about England's lurch to the right. Middle and working class English people are not interested in progressive ideas. If anything they are encouraged that there is a Tory party they can vote for who will not adopt policies that are now classed as "woke", or what we might call progressive in old money.

People say that Blair's legacy is an illegal war, but really it was giving the English a taste of where progressive 21st century politics could go and they hated it.

[super_realist]

Woke is not being progressive Mac, woke is being intolerant to anything that doesn't follow the far left cult agenda.

It stifles debate because it doesn't allow it (or is too frightened to debate or share a platform because it's not a "safe" space), curtails free speech because if you don't agree with them you aren't permitted to speak and makes people frightened to voice opinion for fear of being branded a racist, bigot or beneficiary of white privilege and shouted down by a 6th form mob . It is authoritarianism and a prime example of the Kafka trap in action.

The left don't have a monopoly on goodness or kindness and it's about time you stopped pretending that a vote for the left is the only barometer of how good a person you are.

If anything, wokeness is regressive and is actually making things worse.

[JuliusHMarx]

Woke dictionary definition - "alert to injustice in society, especially racism" or "alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice".

If you define woke as something entirely different - i.e. being intolerant to anything that doesn't follow the far left cult agenda, then I can see why you don't like it. Neither would I.

But I think being woke is a good thing, if we go by the dictionary (which is probably the best approach, rather than making up our own definition).

[Galted]

Woke dictionary definition - "alert to injustice in society, especially racism" or "alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice".

If you define woke as something entirely different - i.e. being intolerant to anything that doesn't follow the far left cult agenda, then I can see why you don't like it. Neither would I.

But I think being woke is a good thing, if we go by the dictionary (which is probably the best approach, rather than making up our own definition).

That depends if you live in a city or not as, according to the urban dictionary, woke is a politically correct alternative to "stupid" or "retarded" or a 'politically correct narrative that has Marxist principles at its roots and doesn't tolerate open discourse'.

[JuliusHMarx]

s_r is clearly more down with the kidz than I am. I'm old school.

[Galted]

s_r is clearly more down with the kidz than I am. I'm old school.

The rural dictionary says 'why it be them foreign sorts, what would deny us simple folk t' hunting of t' fox and t' coursing of t' hare and t' eating of t' gravel' so either way s_r knows what he's on about.

[super_realist]

Woke dictionary definition - "alert to injustice in society, especially racism" or "alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice".

If you define woke as something entirely different - i.e. being intolerant to anything that doesn't follow the far left cult agenda, then I can see why you don't like it. Neither would I.

But I think being woke is a good thing, if we go by the dictionary (which is probably the best approach, rather than making up our own definition).

I prefer to go by the usage of the word, rather than the official definition. Thihsands of words have different usages to their definitions.
If you are saying that being woke is what your definition is saying then that would be fine, but that is not how woke is being used in society these days is it?

If you think being woke is just being against racism or social injustice , then you've just hatched out of an egg.

[JuliusHMarx]

I guess that once the right started using the term as an insult, it did corrupt the original meaning of the word, and it has come to mean what they prefer it to mean.
It also gives the right a convenient excuse not to be woke in the original sense.

[super_realist]

Why are you saying its only the the right are against wokism? It's only the far left that are into it in the way I'm referring to it.
Centre left people aren't any more woke than a centre right person.

Anyone with any common decency is against the sensorious, kafka trap, nonsense that the far left student idiot types come out with.

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