Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

It does seem that this cat video is pretty old. But, also oeople seem more upset about it then say, Chelsea having a player who killed someone when he was drink driving.

We are a nation of animal lovers, my mum was all in on Romanian rescue dogs, not so keen on Romanian people.
,

[beninho]

Im assuming us tax rates overall  may be lower if you need to have private health insurance.For us it is compulsory NHI but as we are seeing nowhere near perfect.We have done this to death but some  sort of combination may be best. NHS will spend any amount of money if given the chance .Some talk today about a refund for private ops if the NHS cannot get the job done in the target time which seems on the face of it reasonable

This is the hateful thing about the NHS, to many, esoecially the left it is on a pedastal and beyond criticism.
If you dare to criticise it, you get called a Trumpite and therefore must want it privatised.
It is not a choice between the NHS and the American model, there is every ither developed nations systems, most of which work better than the NHS.

If the NHS worked so well, other countries would have copied it, but none have. It clearly needs reform in some shape or form.

You love banging this drum. Tell me a better system for the NHS, which keeps people the same level then they have at the moment.?. I'm sure if soneone comes up with that, people would be all over it. Until then, it's the best option we have.

[Duty281]

Im assuming us tax rates overall  may be lower if you need to have private health insurance.For us it is compulsory NHI but as we are seeing nowhere near perfect.We have done this to death but some  sort of combination may be best. NHS will spend any amount of money if given the chance .Some talk today about a refund for private ops if the NHS cannot get the job done in the target time which seems on the face of it reasonable

This is the hateful thing about the NHS, to many, esoecially the left it is on a pedastal and beyond criticism.
If you dare to criticise it, you get called a Trumpite and therefore must want it privatised.
It is not a choice between the NHS and the American model, there is every ither developed nations systems, most of which work better than the NHS.

If the NHS worked so well, other countries would have copied it, but none have. It clearly needs reform in some shape or form.

You love banging this drum.  Tell me a better system for the NHS, which keeps people the same level then they have at the moment.?. I'm sure if soneone comes up with that, people would be all over it. Until then, it's the best option we have.

Most countries in Western Europe.

[beninho]

So, how would you implement a NHS system to be like most countries in Western Europe, will keeping things similar to what people have now?

[super_realist]

So, how would you implement a NHS system to be like most countries in Western Europe, will keeping things similar to what people have now?

Why do you expect any of us to answer that? Go and speak to a country with a better performing NHS that isnt wasting money on rainbow crossings.

[beninho]

So, how would you implement a NHS system to be like most countries in Western Europe, will keeping things similar to what people have now?

Why do you expect any of us to answer that? Go and speak to a country with a better performing NHS that isnt wasting money on rainbow crossings.

Because, anyone that says the NHS needs to be revamped, should be able to explain how they think it should be revamped, and have a vague idea how it will not be worse, financially or any other way for people who use the NHS.

Because if they can't its, just meaningless.

[super_realist]

Im assuming us tax rates overall  may be lower if you need to have private health insurance.For us it is compulsory NHI but as we are seeing nowhere near perfect.We have done this to death but some  sort of combination may be best. NHS will spend any amount of money if given the chance .Some talk today about a refund for private ops if the NHS cannot get the job done in the target time which seems on the face of it reasonable

This is the hateful thing about the NHS, to many, esoecially the left it is on a pedastal and beyond criticism.
If you dare to criticise it, you get called a Trumpite and therefore must want it privatised.
It is not a choice between the NHS and the American model, there is every ither developed nations systems, most of which work better than the NHS.

If the NHS worked so well, other countries would have copied it, but none have. It clearly needs reform in some shape or form.

You love banging this drum.  Tell me a better system for the NHS, which keeps people the same level then they have at the moment.?. I'm sure if soneone comes up with that, people would be all over it. Until then, it's the best option we have.

Its true though isnt it? Why not reform it? 50% of the expenditure of the NHS is non clinical, so clearly there's a management issue.
Theres clearly a procurement problem, they clearly spunk money on prescriptions people dont need like dandruff shampoo and ibuprofen.
We could charge for missed appointments, we could have abetter system for obtaining medicines instead of using Boots as the defacto state pharmacist.

We need a better system for getting doctors appointmets instead of the tee time rush at 8am every morning, we need evening and weekend appointments to make a hit on the waiting lists etc.

Why just carry on because "its the best we have". You'd do well in 1970's British Industry with an attitude like that.

[super_realist]

Thats absolute nonsense. We have many outlets plus we have always livedd with wars, pandemics and climate change.

Not before globalisation took hold.

... we clearly have it easier. What's the comparision to worrying about how many likes you have to whether you will die from a tooth infection.

That sort of whining sounds like a millenial moaning its hard being young these days.

I know it might sound crazy, but have you ever stepped back and asked yourself why we need to work and serve others in order to survive? Its slavery by another name... slavery-lite! The last couple of years I have been questioning stuff like this.

That is the most infantile response in regards to working for a living I have ever heard. Well done.
Slavery lite?
Go and set set up your own business then or go and hunt and gather seeing as you think it is the optimum for happiness , no one is forcing you to work for a comoany, for which you are recompensed for your Labour. Nothing like slavery. Slavery is owning another human being as property and withholding their freedom, not employing them to do a job.

[beninho]

I've had weekend and evening Doctor appointments.

Charging for missed appointments, so, you want to NHS to start getting into debt collection now? And further layers of bureaucracy to sift through appeals, or people with genuine reasons.

[super_realist]

https://www.thejournal.ie/roderic-ogorman-ukrainian-refugees-uk-concerns-5704150-Mar2022/

UK are officially jerks

Ask a Ukranian

[super_realist]

I've had weekend and evening Doctor appointments.

Charging for missed appointments, so, you want to NHS to start getting into debt collection now? And further layers of bureaucracy to sift through appeals, or people with genuine reasons.  

You dont need to do it by debt collection. There are other means.
Like Sweden, you phone up, book an appointment, pay £10, turn up, its refunded, dont turn up you lose it
Its not even comolicated software.

[beninho]

So, who deals with the appeals and refunds? Who decides what is genuine. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed doctors appointments if they don't have any money?

[beninho]

Though if we want to copy Sweden, we should follows its welfare system and pay more in benefits and charge higher taxes as they do in Sweden.

[super_realist]

So, who deals with the appeals and refunds? Who decides what is genuine. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed doctors appointments if they don't have any money?  

The refund is automatic

[super_realist]

Though if we want to copy Sweden, we should follows its welfare system and pay more in benefits and charge higher taxes as they do in Sweden.

Make the NHS more efficient as previously stated then you dont need to pay more tax.

[beninho]

So, who deals with the appeals and refunds? Who decides what is genuine. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed doctors appointments if they don't have any money?  

The refund is automatic

Not if someone couldn't attend, I'd assume.

[beninho]

Though if we want to copy Sweden, we should follows its welfare system and pay more in benefits and charge higher taxes as they do in Sweden.

Make the NHS more efficient as previously stated then you dont need to pay more tax.

Great call, why has no one thought if that over the years. Missing a trick the NHS, appointing all these people with experience rather then the expert on running the NHS Mr no mark off the Internet, he can also give his knowledge on masks and many other things.

Love an Internet expert.

[beninho]

What's the great reset? Seems to be flagged by conspiracy nuts

[McLaren]

Super

As you can see from the graph I posted yesterday, the UK (NHS) is actually run quite efficiently. We are firmly in the middle of the pack for healthcare costs.

And if you had bothered to check, we actually don't spend as much as we could. Denmark, Belgium, Germany, France, Sweden, Norway etc all spend a greater proportion of GDP on healthcare.

[Eyetoldyouso]

The NHS is the number 1 political hot potato. Whatever any politician says should be done is immediately rubbished by another politician, union, medic etc

So what is the solution?

In the old days, back when most of the posters to this site were in short trousers or not even born, whenever there seemed to be an intractable problem with divergent opinions but a willingness to sole, they would appoint a Royal Commission. This is what should be done now.

Each of the political parties and interest groups should have input into its terms of reference and composition. Give it 5 years to report, televise its meetings, and sit back and wait. In the meantime we will continue to fiddle at the edges.

This of course assumes that there isn't a nuclear holocaust beforehand.

[super_realist]

Super

As you can see from the graph I posted yesterday, the UK (NHS) is actually run quite efficiently. We are firmly in the middle of the pack for healthcare costs.

And if you had bothered to check, we actually don't spend as much as we could. Denmark, Belgium, Germany, France, Sweden, Norway etc all spend a greater proportion of GDP on healthcare.

Mac, that doesnt tell you how the money is spent. Ive long said that the NHS doesnt need more money, per head of population and as a % of our GDP we are right up there with our neighbours, but we have a worse system. Almost half the NHS budget goes on NHS salaries.

[super_realist]

Though if we want to copy Sweden, we should follows its welfare system and pay more in benefits and charge higher taxes as they do in Sweden.

Make the NHS more efficient as previously stated then you dont need to pay more tax.

Great call, why has no one thought if that over the years.  Missing a trick the NHS, appointing all these people with experience rather then the expert on running the NHS Mr no mark off the Internet, he can also give his knowledge on masks and many other things.

Love an Internet expert.

Would you agree we have a prescription problem?
NHS is wasting money painting ainbow coloured crossings for goodness sake.
. Just carry on as usual eh Ben? Hope you dont get ill.

[super_realist]

So, who deals with the appeals and refunds? Who decides what is genuine. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed doctors appointments if they don't have any money?  

The refund is automatic

Not if someone couldn't attend, I'd assume.

Then then they can CANCEL so someone else can take it. The issue is people NOT TURNING UP to appointments.

A 15 minute GP appointment costs the NHS £40.

We pay for dentistry, we pay for Optometry, maybe paying a smakl fee for other aspects of our sh1t NHS might help sort things out?

[beninho]

Though if we want to copy Sweden, we should follows its welfare system and pay more in benefits and charge higher taxes as they do in Sweden.

Make the NHS more efficient as previously stated then you dont need to pay more tax.

Great call, why has no one thought if that over the years.  Missing a trick the NHS, appointing all these people with experience rather then the expert on running the NHS Mr no mark off the Internet, he can also give his knowledge on masks and many other things.

Love an Internet expert.

Would you agree we have a prescription problem?
NHS is wasting money painting ainbow coloured crossings for goodness sake.
. Just carry on as usual eh Ben? Hope you dont get ill.

I'm obviously not as much an expert on the NHS as you are. I assume you have looked far more into things then me, so I dont know if we have a prescription problem or not. But, from my own experience, with my mum, who died of cancer in 2019 and my sister who has had cancer twice and still undergoes chemo each month, the NHS has been very good. With both children being born under C Section, the care after was good. Whenever I've needed the NHS, they've been good.

[beninho]

So, who deals with the appeals and refunds? Who decides what is genuine. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed doctors appointments if they don't have any money?  

The refund is automatic

Not if someone couldn't attend, I'd assume.

Then then they can CANCEL so someone else can take it. The issue is people NOT TURNING UP to appointments.

A 15 minute GP appointment costs the NHS £40.

We pay for dentistry, we pay for Optometry, maybe paying a smakl fee for other aspects of our sh1t NHS might help sort things out?

I know, I get your point. My question was who decides if soneone has a genuine reason for not turning up, and who gets the refund?. But, yelling people they can't have an appointment if they don't have any money, is a bit off in my view.

[JuliusHMarx]

If the NHS doesn't need more money, then why charge people for missing an appointment?
Believe it or not, £10 is a lot of money to some people and to lose it because of e.g. a family emergency that prevented them attending or cancelling is harsh. Yes, there could be an appeals process, but that would cost money to create and run that system.

Also begs the question of what happens if someone phones for an appointment but says either 'I can't afford the deposit at the moment' or 'I only deal in cash'.

[beninho]

I'm guessing that Abramovich was giving notice of his sanctions. But, its pretty funny.

[McLaren]

Super

I guess you are saying that we should be more like some of the countries to the left of the UK on this graph. What country on this graph do you think the UK should be able to match?

would you be happy for the UK to spend more on health if we could achieve a Switzerland life expectancy?

[super_realist]

Mac, we keep hearing how great the NHS is, yet Germany with 16 million more people seems to run a better health service whilst having more doctors and nurses per capita and does so without being Europes largest employer like the NHS.
The question should be WHY is the NHS employing so many people whilst having lower doctors and nurses per capita than most of our neighbours.
That clearly shows that the management structure is skewed.
If Germany can have a better health system with fewer staff whilst maintaining a better Doctors/Nurses per capita than us, what are all these extra people in the NHS actually doing?

[super_realist]

Super

I guess you are saying that we should be more like some of the countries to the left of the UK on this graph. What country on this graph do you think the UK should be able to match?

would you be happy for the UK to spend more on health if we could achieve a Switzerland life expectancy?

Life exoectancy in case of the UK wont improve by increasing health soending. Our country has too many, idle, fat wasters. Its a cultural thing and I think the NHS is spending something like 20% of its budget on Type 2 Diabetes amd associated diseases.

GDP in Switzerland is considerably higher too

[super_realist]

If the NHS doesn't need more money, then why charge people for missing an appointment?
Believe it or not, £10 is a lot of money to some people and to lose it because of e.g. a family emergency that prevented them attending or cancelling is harsh. Yes, there could be an appeals process, but that would cost money to create and run that system.

Also begs the question of what happens if someone phones for an appointment but says either 'I can't afford the deposit at the moment' or 'I only deal in cash'.

Because it is WASTING money, as i just said. If you dont bother tonturn up for your GP appointment, its £40 of a cost to the NHS.

Why should the NHS pay for missed appointments?

As for how they pay. Take it out of their taxes

[JuliusHMarx]

So it's a punishment.
I guess those who don't earn enough to pay tax wouldn't be fined.
Perhaps the fine could be means tested - that would be fairer.

[beninho]

The Sarah Everard vigil is now legally a balls up by the Met. Really don't help themselves.

[McLaren]

yet Germany with 16 million more people seems to run a better health service whilst having more doctors and nurses per capita and does so without being Europes largest employer like the NHS.

This response tends to make me think you didn't even try to answer my question. I ask what country you would like the UK to improve and become like and you pick one who spends more for shorter life expectancy.

[super_realist]

yet Germany with 16 million more people seems to run a better health service whilst having more doctors and nurses per capita and does so without being Europes largest employer like the NHS.

This response tends to make me think you didn't even try to answer my question. I ask what country you would like the UK to improve and become like and you pick one who spends more for shorter life expectancy.

As usual, you dont understand anything. You seem to think the ONLY thing which results in longer life exoectancy is how much you spend. Tjeres much more to it than that.

I asked a question which you dodged.

How can Germany have 16 million more people in its population yet have a smaller and better health service with MORE doctors and nurses per head of population?

As for life expectancy, UK is 81 and Germany 80.6 so hardly a big deal and id much rather have Germany's waiting list time, diagnisis and treatment/recovery figures as well as the doctor to patient ratio than the profligate NHS spunking money.

[super_realist]

So it's a punishment.
I guess those who don't earn enough to pay tax wouldn't be fined.
Perhaps the fine could be means tested - that would be fairer.

Peasants don't pay for prescriptions, the same people wouldnt oay forndoctors appointments. Not rocket science.

[JuliusHMarx]

So it's a punishment.
I guess those who don't earn enough to pay tax wouldn't be fined.
Perhaps the fine could be means tested - that would be fairer.

Peasants don't pay for prescriptions, the same people wouldnt oay forndoctors appointments. Not rocket science.

I'd rather be a peasant than a tw@t.

[super_realist]

So it's a punishment.
I guess those who don't earn enough to pay tax wouldn't be fined.
Perhaps the fine could be means tested - that would be fairer.

Yes, you pay for a missed appointment, why not?
I missed a physio appointment because i noted down the wrong date. I paid for my appointment i missed. Why should I not have to pay?

[JuliusHMarx]

How were you billed for your missed NHS physio appointment? I'm assuming it was NHS, as we are discussing the NHS. What was the appeal process? Did paying the money affect your ability to heat your house, or feed your family?
Should peasants even be given health care - would it be better for society if they all just died young along with, say, fat people? Then we could get some hard-working immigrants in to do the jobs all the lazy slobs don't want to do.

[JAS]

How were you billed for your missed NHS physio appointment? I'm assuming it was NHS, as we are discussing the NHS. What was the appeal process? Did paying the money affect your ability to heat your house, or feed your family?
Should peasants even be given health care - would it be better for society if they all just died young along with, say, fat people? Then we could get some hard-working immigrants in to do the jobs all the lazy slobs don't want to do.

He’s trying ever so hard not to say it directly but that to me that’s the implication.

Every time we get into these kind of debates it makes sense to go back to the 1st principles of Why the NHS was set up and also consider what health/welfare was like before it was set up. Then think how you can preserve/evolve those principles to meet the countries health/welfare needs. Let’s face it, healthcare and medicine have changed enormously in the past 74 years.

What you don’t need and what shouldn’t ever EVER colour the debate is jumped up bloody wannabe accountants moaning about having to pay a penny or 2 more in income tax FFS. We, as the 5th or 6th richest nation in the world either want a healthcare system that befits us as a nation OR we want to show the world how much we love to embrace wealth inequality and show other countries the link between low taxes for the sake of it and what it does to poverty, health and social mobility in the bottom half/two thirds of the income distribution. In that respect the difference between the Skandi nations and us is a national embarrassment, even worse is the fact that most people either don’t know or don’t care.

[McLaren]

Every time we get into these kind of debates it makes sense to go back to the 1st principles of Why the NHS was set up and also consider what health/welfare was like before it was set up.

This is a good point. But whenever I think about the founding of the NHS I can't help but think that it wouldn't be palatable to todays voters if we had to establish it now. There are too many people who just don't understand how fortunate we are to have a single payer healthcare system.

[JAS]

Every time we get into these kind of debates it makes sense to go back to the 1st principles of Why the NHS was set up and also consider what health/welfare was like before it was set up.

This is a good point. But whenever I think about the founding of the NHS I can't help but think that it wouldn't be palatable to todays voters if we had to establish it now. There are too many people who just don't understand how fortunate we are to have a single payer healthcare system.

What is palatable to todays voters? They've been brainwashed into believing that we have to be a low tax economy and that clouds every judgement and snookers successive governments from making the right long term choices rather than the politically expedient short term ones. We as a country have an absolutely chaotic misunderstanding of government finance and it's peddled and supported by the media.

Go ask your average Dane or Swede how utterly terrible it is to have to live in a high tax economy....exactly.

High Tax, High Spend high wage means government finance in terms of Health, education & infrastructure are properly funded.

We have Low tax (well actually do we really?) Low spend (hence NHS mess, Education in bits etc) and low wage (hence the ridiculous levels of in work poverty) All because we've been led to believe that low tax, low spend (politicians don't like to mention the accompanying low wage bit) is what a successful economy should be like. Well we've had decades of it, how's that working out for everyone??

Of course what you're going to get now is the apologists saying ah but the pandemic, ah but the war in Ukraine...Hogwash these issues were in our economy before those 2 calamitous events. The same apologists who castigate 1970s governments, conveniently forgetting the OPEC oil crisis that precipitated the inflation crisis that precipitated Unions losing their Poopie over trying to keep their workers wages in line.

This time round when inflation really takes off (in the next few months) unions are so neutered there will be no fight, this time ordinary working people will just have to lie down and suck up doubling of gas and electricity, suck up £2.50 a litre petrol and diesel while utility companies and oill companies rebalance their balance sheets after the pandemic. For many ordinary families it'll be years without holidays and other small luxuries that make life bearable. Can you imagine how dull life is going to be for millions of people who will effectively be surviving rather than living. Still, at least many can say "it's ok, its what we voted for and will do again". Before anyone comes back with the predictable...."it'd have been worse under Labour" That's really not the point, I see Starmer also wedded to focus groups telling him that he must appear to low tax, low spend as well.

[McLaren]

Jas

I think I agree with the sentiment of your post. If what you are essentially saying is that the UK population has become too right wing to vote in a left of centre party.

And part of that is the idea that government spending should be viewed like a small business or home. You don't hear it used often but the term "deficit hawk" describes this mindset.

Deficit hawk is a political slang term in the English speaking world for people who place great emphasis on keeping government budgets under control

The idea that just balancing the books is what makes a strong economy.

[JAS]

Jas

I think I agree with the sentiment of your post. If what you are essentially saying is that the UK population has become too right wing to vote in a left of centre party.

And part of that is the idea that government spending should be viewed like a small business or home. You don't hear it used often but the term "deficit hawk" describes this mindset.

Deficit hawk is a political slang term in the English speaking world for people who place great emphasis on keeping government budgets under control

The idea that just balancing the books is what makes a strong economy.

Yep that's it Mac, Saying gov't finances are just like a household or small business is blatant and knowingly misrepresenting and appealing to otherwise sensible and prudent people in the most disingenuous way...unfortunately most suck it up!!

How many households or small businesses do you know that can print money?
How many households or small businesses do you know that can issue bonds?

Government borrowing is NOT the same as you or I getting a bank loan. The former shouldn't even be called borrowing, it involves issuing bonds that can be rolled over decade after decade, the latter the greedy illegitimate childen create it from nothing, lend it to you under very strict conditions and want it back on a very strict timetable and want (and indeed have the right to demand more if you don't stick to their timetable so yeah....it should be obvious even to the hard of thinking that household borrowing and Government borrowing should NEVER be classed as the same thing.

As for it being essential for governments to balance the books....the Japanese economy seems to function ok with an eye popping amount of "debt".

Call me naive here but I'd class a well run economy as an economy that functions well for the vast MAJORITY of it's people facilitates prosperity for those prepared to work hard and contribute to a happy and cohesive society now and in the years ahead.

If balancing the books is an essential part of that then fine but it isn't is it? It's a blunt tool used by the haves to convince the have nots that they cant have prosperity today but keep dreaming. It may happen at some point in the future. Here's the news...it won't. Trickle down (or rather trickle across) economics is now so deeply embedded I cant see how we can back out of the self serving greed promotion we have to something eminently more sensible. The majority of the British voting public are totally sold on perpetual self harm.

[beninho]

These companies who do mass reduncies to rehire on worse terms are bloody awful. There really should be some sort of law to protect against it.

[JAS]

These companies who do mass reduncies to rehire on worse terms are bloody awful. There really should be some sort of law to protect against it.

There used to be but somebody thought it was a better idea to break unions, strip them of any ability to properly represent their members and give big companies free reign to do EXACTLY as P&O have done.
Well duh!! Why should we be surprised, our version of global neoliberalism at its finest.

[JAS]

Meanwhile, Currant Buns in Europa league quarter final draw. So here’s a question mainly for Super, 4 years ago, immediately pre Gerrard, what odds would you have given on Rangers making a European Q/F and digging themselves from nowhere in the rankings to 38th after 3 successive last 16s

[McLaren]

Jas

You would think it would be pretty obvious that unions are vital, but I just don't think the general public get it.

[JAS]

Jas

You would think it would be pretty obvious that unions are vital, but I just don't think the general public get it.

Yep everybody is convinced they are the “enemy within” as was drip fed to us as infinitum in the 80s….well welcome to the other side of that coin. Workers shafted at the hands of a multinational… who never saw that coming??

Meanwhile the REAL enemy within (well those with Tory mates) seem to be getting enough of a grace period to deftly move their assets.

Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated!!

[beninho]

I see some republican in texas is so pro life he wants the death penalty for people who have abortions.

[beninho]

'“For me, the privet hedges of suburbia are the privet hedges of a free people.”

What the Holy Smeg does this mean???

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