Ireland 2023/24 - RWC and Onwards

First topic message reminder :

So another season is over, and we're getting ready for Andy Farrell's announcement this coming week for his initial RWC squad that will be used in upcoming warm-up games against Italy (5 Aug) , England (19 Aug) both in Aviva, and then a whittled down finalised RWC squad to play Samoa in France on 26 Aug.

The U20s RWC kicks off in South Africa in July.

After Munster's well-deserved win against Stormers, Farrell & Co may have paused for thought as to who comes into the wider squad beyond the nailed-on members. The 42 man RWC Training Squad announced is:

Forwards (22)

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University)
Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers)
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne)
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere)
Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster)
Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf)
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf)
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy)
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD)
Cian Prendergast (Connacht/Corinthians)
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD)
Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)*
Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena)
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD)

Backs (20)

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians)
Caolin Blade (Connacht/Galwegians)
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD)
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon)
Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)*
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster)
Mack Hansen (Connacht/Corinthians)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers)
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD)
James Lowe (Leinster)
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor)
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen)
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster)*
Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas)
Jamie Osborne (Leinster/Naas)*
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan)

king_carlos wrote:That feels brutal on big Joe, carpet? He was terrific for the first three rounds!

He was and I'm sure he would be if started. But he can be equally explosive off the bench,
Its nothing personal for me it's horses for courses. I think Henderson will help keep our set piece on track especially the lineout.
Build a score in the first half then unleash Joe with 30 minutes to go

Fair. For me, I think I'd ere towards maximising power against this Scotland team.

1.Porter 2.Sheehan 3.Furlong 4.McCarthy 5.Henderson 6.Bierne 7.JvdF 8.Doris

16.Kelleher 17.Healy 18.Bealham 19.Baird 20.POM

Something like that. Look to hammer over the gain line on the one out carries that usually allow Ireland to go through an absurd number of phases in a low risk manner.

I doubt POM will get benched when he's been made skipper though.

Just saw that Frisch has been called up to the France squad! Real shame if we lose him.

If the Ireland pack was picked on form it would be:

1.Porter 2.Sheehan 3.Bealham 4. Beirne 5.Henderson 6.Conan 7.JvdF 8.Doris

16.Kelleher 17.Healy 18. Furlong 19. McCarthy 20. Baird

It wont be

Munster have announced that they are playing the ABs XV again in November.

Who are the long-term replacements for Porter and Furlong? Who is the next 9? That all seems like something Ireland will struggle with. Munster have a few good players, maybe they'll be filling the void?

Collapse2005 wrote:Munster have announced that they are playing the ABs XV again in November.

Another game for Munster - looks like Ulster doesn't exist when it comes to hand out representative matches

It was the 25th anniversary of the Six Nations this year.
Over that time, each team has played 125 games and the number of titles, wins, losses, placing, etc is fascinating.

The most important one:
6N Titles
England 7, France 6, Ireland 6, Wales 6

Thereafter, the figures differ somewhat from the title tallies.
Triple Crowns
Ire 7, Eng 5, Wal 5
Grand Slams
Fra 4, Wal, 4, Ire 3, Eng 2
Matches won
Ire 85, Eng 82, Fra 80, Wal 64, Sco 41, Ita 15
Matches Lost
Ire 37, Eng 41, Fra 42, Wal 58, Sco 81, Ita 108
Average Table Place
Ire 2.3
Eng 2.4
Fra 2.7
Wal 3.5
Sco 4.4
Ita 5.6

Financially, the placing of a team determines the prize money they win. No Grand slam this year which earns the winning team an extra £1m apparently.
A Grand Slam for a union has been achieved 13 times in the last 25 years.

Prize monies for places this year were 1st £5m, 2nd £3.5m, 3rd £2.5m, 4th £1.5m, 5th & 6th £1m.

The England, France, Ireland & Wales unions apparently budget for finishing third in the 6N table each year. Not sure about Scotland and Italy budget targets.

Top 3 finishes for Unions in last 25 years
Ire 23/25
Eng 20/25
Fra 17/25
Wal 10/25
Sco 5/25
Ita 0/25

The fact that Wales have won 6 titles but have only had 10 top three finishes is crazy. They are very good a striking while the iron is hot.

Pot Hale wrote:It was the 25th anniversary of the Six Nations this year.
Over that time, each team has played 125 games and the number of titles, wins, losses, placing, etc is fascinating.

The most important one:
6N Titles
England 7, France 6, Ireland 6, Wales 6

Scotland - Dark Horses: 25

I think its fair to say Scotland have under performed, in the last three years they should have had at least one top two finish challenging hard for top spot.

Collapse2005 wrote:I think its fair to say Scotland have under performed, in the last three years they should have had at least one top two finish challenging hard for top spot.

I don't think any of us will be arguing with that!

"The England, France, Ireland & Wales unions apparently budget for finishing third in the 6N table each year"

So with Irelands winning the £5m there's a £2.5m excess floating about, can Ulster have a world class 10 please?

Pete330v2 wrote:"The England, France, Ireland & Wales unions apparently budget for finishing third in the 6N table each year"

So with Irelands winning the £5m there's a £2.5m excess floating about, can Ulster have a world class 10 please?

Need to get Taniela Tupou confirmed to Leinster first. Priorities sir!

Subbing off Furlong and Ryan, bringing Tupou and Snyman on for impact would be approaching a squad from the world league career mode on Rugby '08.

The extra money will not go on extra players

geoff999rugby wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Munster have announced that they are playing the ABs XV again in November.

Another game for Munster - looks like Ulster doesn't exist when it comes to hand out representative matches

Yeah it doesnt seem fair. Ulster once drew with the ABs too and yet there were no musicals made about that either.

In all seriousness though I do think there is scope for the IRFU to put a bit more into Ulster.

I suspect that Ulster will benefit from the conversion of short-term operational debt owed to the IRFU c.£2.5-3m into a longer-term loan similar to Munster's €4m operational debt conversion last season. This will be necessary with the move to change the corporate structure of the provincial branches from societies where members are exposed personally to the branches' debts - as evidenced during Covid - to more normal Limited or DAC structures with limited liability for directors/members.

Part of the 6N prize money goes toward the squad/management bonus pool, the remainder will likely go towards off-setting the huge cost of the RWC last year - c. €10m according to the IRFU in its last Annual Report.  

The IRFU managed to get its professional cost profiles back to more normal levels post-Covid with Player/Management now back to 2018/19 levels of c.€31m for player/management budgets for provinces (LMU - 3 x €8m +C €6m) and €7.5m for test team management, central contract players plus bonuses.

All of the CVC monies from PRO14 shares purchase have now been spent with competition income likely to fall substantially with the full 27% split for CVC being taken out.   More than ever, the provinces will have to deliver their own revenues to meet their player recharge costs for any salary amounts above the levels of the IRFU funding contribution.   With Leinster having 7 and moving to 8/9 players for next season on central contracts, their €8m (£6.8m) allocation will go a lot further on the rest of their squad than the other 3 provinces who only have 1 or 2 players off their books.

Squad for the SA tour:

Forwards: Ryan Baird (Dublin University/Leinster) 20

Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 40

Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 50

Caelan Doris (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 41

Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 76

Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 129

Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 39

Cormac Izuchukwu (Ulster/Ballynahinch)*

Oli Jager (Munster) 1

Ronan Kelleher (Lansdowne/Leinster) 31

Joe McCarthy (Dublin University/Leinster) 10

Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)(captain) 105

Tom O’Toole (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 13

Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 64

Cian Prendergast (UCD/Connacht) 3

James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 62

Dan Sheehan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 26

Nick Timoney (Banbridge/Ulster) 3

Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 62

Backs:

Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 56

Caolin Blade (Galwegians/Connacht) 2

Craig Casey (Shannon/Munster) 14

Jack Crowley (Cork Constitution/Munster) 14

Ciaran Frawley (UCD/Leinster) 4

Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 72

Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 32

James Lowe (Leinster) 31

Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/Ulster) 17

Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 116

Calvin Nash (Young Munster/Munster) 6

Jimmy O’Brien (Naas/Leinster) 8

Jamie Osborne (Naas/Leinster)*

Sam Prendergast (Lansdowne/Leinster)*

Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 58

Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 37

Are Healy and Murray in just to justify their salary and sponsorships? I also think Ireland need to be looking beyond O'Mahony as well - he's been made captain now so there's no choice, although I would have kept POM in the squad anyway to ensure there's another leader around for a while.

Gladd Izzy has been called up, but McCann definitely should be there as well

Am I right that there's only 2 LHs there but 4 THs? Presumably Bealham potentially covering? The absent LH is 35-year-old Dave Kilcoyne as well, so not a spring chicken.

JGP is the massive blow though. He's Ireland's standout 9 by a distance, one of the standouts worldwide. The phase play is so much slicker with him on the field.

With Keenan and Hansen also absent, who usually offer playmaking options, it'll be interesting to see if and how Farrell adjusts the tactics ball in hand. Ringrose feels like a massive returnee in that regard. He's a brilliant link man at 13.

king_carlos wrote:Am I right that there's only 2 LHs there but 4 THs? Presumably Bealham potentially covering? The absent LH is 35-year-old Dave Kilcoyne as well, so not a spring chicken.

JGP is the massive blow though. He's Ireland's standout 9 by a distance, one of the standouts worldwide. The phase play is so much slicker with him on the field.

With Keenan and Hansen also absent, who usually offer playmaking options, it'll be interesting to see if and how Farrell adjusts the tactics ball in hand. Ringrose feels like a massive returnee in that regard. He's a brilliant link man at 13.

ToT will be playing LH

Kingshu wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Am I right that there's only 2 LHs there but 4 THs? Presumably Bealham potentially covering? The absent LH is 35-year-old Dave Kilcoyne as well, so not a spring chicken.

JGP is the massive blow though. He's Ireland's standout 9 by a distance, one of the standouts worldwide. The phase play is so much slicker with him on the field.

With Keenan and Hansen also absent, who usually offer playmaking options, it'll be interesting to see if and how Farrell adjusts the tactics ball in hand. Ringrose feels like a massive returnee in that regard. He's a brilliant link man at 13.

ToT will be playing LH

Interesting. Has he done that previously?

Thoughts on no Ross Byrne from Ireland fans? Obviously, won the Six Nations but many Leinster fans seemed frustrated by him during the recent KO losses.

king_carlos wrote:Thoughts on no Ross Byrne from Ireland fans? Obviously, won the Six Nations but many Leinster fans seemed frustrated by him during the recent KO losses.

He's not a bad player. But he's at his best when you have a dominant pack and getting good fast ball.
But he's not much of a threat on his own, and if under pressure I feel he's easily shut down.
His brother Harry has everything you want in a modern ten. Physical, huge boot on him decent pace, and a very good range of passing, but ultimately he's shown he can't control/ read a game as well as you would hope and is just as liable to pass direct to the opposition as he is to put the winger away.
So I understand why neither is called up.

Frawley has shown he could be a great ten, everything you want. But he's 26 and only got a handful of senior appearances at 10 and I think he's firmly seen as a utility back by club and country and can't see that changing.

Sam Prendergast from what we have seen could be better than them all. But crucially he needs game time.

Then behind him you have Tector and Murphy, both young and both showing a lot of potential.

So to me no great loss.

king_carlos wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Am I right that there's only 2 LHs there but 4 THs? Presumably Bealham potentially covering? The absent LH is 35-year-old Dave Kilcoyne as well, so not a spring chicken.

JGP is the massive blow though. He's Ireland's standout 9 by a distance, one of the standouts worldwide. The phase play is so much slicker with him on the field.

With Keenan and Hansen also absent, who usually offer playmaking options, it'll be interesting to see if and how Farrell adjusts the tactics ball in hand. Ringrose feels like a massive returnee in that regard. He's a brilliant link man at 13.

ToT will be playing LH

Interesting. Has he done that previously?

He's been training there with Ireland and Ulster but as far as I'm aware hasn't played any matches at loosehead.

king_carlos wrote:

JGP is the massive blow though.

With Keenan and Hansen also absent, who usually offer playmaking options, it'll be interesting to see if and how Farrell adjusts the tactics ball in hand. Ringrose feels like a massive returnee in that regard. He's a brilliant link man at 13.

All three are extremely hard to replace, and not sure we have anyone in this squad who can replicate what they do.

And hopefully ringrose can quickly get back to his best as I think we need him fit and in form as the other three centers make great direct plays but not top end speed.

Ulster's best backrower doesn't make the squad?

I was wondering if O'Toole was a TH as I couldn't remember, but he's being asked to play LH? Why not just call up Loughman, who should probably be there over Healy anyway.

mikey_dragon wrote:I was wondering if O'Toole was a TH as I couldn't remember, but he's being asked to play LH? Why not just call up Loughman, who should probably be there over Healy anyway.

Looks to me Farrell has decided Loughman doesn't cut it at International level.
I think he is right.
Trouble is how many Irish props do?

They managed to convert Porter from TH to LH in insane time to be fair. It's easy to forget that he made a Lions tour as a TH, but didn't travel due to injury, then converted to being a world class LH in about a season. It was one of the more insane position switches from recent years in terms of how quickly he managed it. Woki just magically becoming a second row because France had too many flankers was is another notable one. Tuisova shifting to 12 perhaps. There aren't many who do it as quickly and successfully as Porter did.

I think O'Toole has attributes better suited to LH than TH.
My worry is making the switch this far into his career

geoff999rugby wrote:I think O'Toole has attributes better suited to LH than TH.
My worry is making the switch this far into his career

He's the same age as Porter when he switched. As said above, Porter is a pretty ridiculous outlier in how quickly and well he made that switch. There is that precedent there though.

This Ireland setup have be training a lot of their props to scrummage on both sides. Their official team sheet (i.e. the ones given to the officials) have Porter and Bealham designated as able to scrummage at LH or TH and Healy able to play LH, TH and hooker. IIRC it was a response to fears of going down an extra man if you end up unable to field a full scrum due to a card for foul play.

Bealham is a poor LH
Healy is poor TH