Ireland 2023/24 - RWC and Onwards

First topic message reminder :

So another season is over, and we're getting ready for Andy Farrell's announcement this coming week for his initial RWC squad that will be used in upcoming warm-up games against Italy (5 Aug) , England (19 Aug) both in Aviva, and then a whittled down finalised RWC squad to play Samoa in France on 26 Aug.

The U20s RWC kicks off in South Africa in July.

After Munster's well-deserved win against Stormers, Farrell & Co may have paused for thought as to who comes into the wider squad beyond the nailed-on members. The 42 man RWC Training Squad announced is:

Forwards (22)

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University)
Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers)
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne)
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere)
Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster)
Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf)
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf)
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy)
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD)
Cian Prendergast (Connacht/Corinthians)
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD)
Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)*
Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena)
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD)

Backs (20)

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians)
Caolin Blade (Connacht/Galwegians)
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD)
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon)
Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)*
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster)
Mack Hansen (Connacht/Corinthians)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers)
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD)
James Lowe (Leinster)
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor)
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen)
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster)*
Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas)
Jamie Osborne (Leinster/Naas)*
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan)

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Sexton is having a hearing on 13th July following his recent annoyance with refereeing.

He will cop a couple of matches, we are a threat in the pool. Even though we’ll fluff our lines in the quarters.

Well the hearing is still ongoing, from 9 this morning.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well the hearing is still ongoing, from 9 this morning.

Still???

And still.

Annnnnnd concluded. Decision to be announced in the next few days.

It's a cover-up. They have retreated to their inner sanctum to try to figure out how to get Sexton out of hot water.

doctor_grey wrote:It's a cover-up.  They have retreated to their inner sanctum to try to figure out how to get Sexton out of hot water.

100% spot on!

doctor_grey wrote:It's a cover-up.  They have retreated to their inner sanctum to try to figure out how to get Sexton out of hot water.

What are you on about Doc, Sexton was never in any trouble, they weren't investigating him today, in fact he wasn't even at the Champions Cup final, anyone saying otherwise is not to be trusted

Doesn't matter the results there will be outrage.
It will be too lenient and too harsh.
Conspiracy to stop Ireland and to make sure they win
Ireland always get special treatment and are treated unfairly.
But it will make this place entertaining

carpet baboon wrote:Doesn't matter the results there will be outrage.
It will be too lenient and too harsh.
Conspiracy to stop Ireland and to make sure they win
Ireland always get special treatment and are treated unfairly.
But it will make this place entertaining

You are right, and I'm already outraged. This is awful and a travesty. Drags Rugby through the dirt once again. Bast@rds.

The only upside is disciplinary hearing bans never ever make any sense most of the time, so whatever the ban we can all agree on that

I expect that no news isnt exactly a great sign. I do think Sexton deserves some sort of ban which wont be enough for his critics but will likely see him miss the three world cup warm up games and not a lot else which based on the fairly scatty information available is about right.

All of this sort of thing gets completely ramped up for a world cup but I think the Ireland camp will deal with it well and move on one way or another.

Yep three match ban, all of the warm up games and will be available for RWC as expected. Probably about right too.

Its too long .....

Its too short .......

He would never have played in those games anyway ......

Its all a farce ....

When do we get the full wording so the arguments can really begin?

Probably the day before the final. If Ireland get knocked out early it will be forgotten about very quickly.

doctor_grey wrote:It's a cover-up.  They have retreated to their inner sanctum to try to figure out how to get Sexton out of hot water.

Job done: https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/66183082

As long as it’s consistent and sets a precedent for future stuff. That’s where the real outrage will be, if others are treated more harshly for the same thing going forward.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:As long as it’s consistent and sets a precedent for future stuff. That’s where the real outrage will be, if others are treated more harshly for the same thing going forward.  

I think a precedent has been set already with the likes of Hartley and rassie etc. Sexton is probably breathing a huge sigh of relief and may have been dealt with leniency. However we are not privy too the details so must take a leap of faith that the disciplinary committee have it correct. I'm not sure copping a three week ban for abusing match officials is good the game imo, the refs have a difficult job at the best of times.

One thing's for sure you Ireland boys will receive a lot of vitriol from our South African brethren about this, let hope it doesn't spoil what could be a brilliant world cup for you guys.

It’s done now, time to move forward.

The SA lot are always whinging about something. I think what Rassie did was worse btw, and he got off lightly - being banned during covid will make it seem lighter…

I dont see how what Rassie did was particularly comparable. He criticised refs over a period of time on multiple occasions on social media after a warning. Sexton had an altercation in the heat of the battle in private. Not really similar.

Collapse2005 wrote:I dont see how what Rassie did was particularly comparable. He criticised refs over a period of time on multiple occasions on social media after a warning. Sexton had an altercation in the heat of the battle in private. Not really similar.

It's a lot closer to Dylan Hartley's 11 week ban for abusing the ref. Hartley used stronger language - but then was actually in the middle of the game and IIRC claimed it wasn't directed at the ref - and had more of a previous disciplinary history, but Sexton's was definitely directed at the ref and was at the end of a game he didn't play in so he had the option to stay out of their way and not engage.

Another comparison is Marler's 6 week ban (albeit with 4 weeks suspended) for sledging Jake Heenan. It was the sort of comment that gets thrown around in scrums all the time; except that Marler happened to direct it at a player whose mother (unbeknownst to him) was very ill.

3 weeks, missing no games of consequence, seems like a very lenient result and one that sets a dangerous precedent that the penalty for ref abuse is pretty mild.

Collapse2005 wrote:...Sexton had an altercation in the heat of the battle in private...

It wasn't in the heat of the battle - it was after the match and not on the back of any particularly contentious decisions. It was basically just sour grapes at losing. Nor was it in private, it was on the field in clear view of tens of thousands of fans in the stadium, and more on TV. Even if the words used couldn't be heard it was quite clear he was having a go. Nor was it a one off comment, he had a go at Spreadbury, then went and had a go at the match officials, and then made more comments in their direction during the medal ceremony. It's not at all like the Rassie example - which is unique to the best of my knowledge - and shouldn't get that kind of ban. But it is fair to say that he is lucky to have got the bare minimum entry level. With full mitigation I'd have expected him to get 5 or 6 weeks for this.

There's no doubt it's a lenient let off for Sexton. I did actually expect his career to come to an end because of this and that, perhaps is what was being deliberated. Should they swiftly end his career and Ireland's RWC chances or should they be lenient and impose a ban of little substance just to tick their own boxes. I don't think it sets a precedent at all however as punishments dished out have historically been random to say the least. I'd fully expect the next bit of ref abuse to get a harsh penalty and everyone will point at this decision but nobody will look.
Johnny would have been wrapped in cotton wool anyway and it would be unlikely that he would have featured much in the 3 games if at all. He'll be fresh and raring to go for the RWC so it's turned out to be a silver lining for us Irish but a point of wrath for everyone else.

Yeah, interesting point that in regards to annoyance there will be some who are generally already annoyed by Sexton's behaviour who will have loved to have seen him banned for any reason! I think the more pertinent point though is that there doesn't appear on the surface to be much consistency in the citing processes and panels across different panels, let alone different panels across different comps, and hemispheres. I really do think precedents should be set but inevitably this, as with many other cases over the years are merely treated as 1 offs and are treated as such. Indeed the only times previous is considered is to the individual's past not cases similar to the wrong doing.

Russ Petty notes Sexton was given mitigation for admitting to the words he said, while the report also spells out he clearly said more than he admitted.

Petty has a tweet with the record of some abuse levelled at officials. Do look at it for the comments attributed to Richard Cockerill, which you can read at the bottom of his table.

https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1680900778653896704

Poorfour wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I dont see how what Rassie did was particularly comparable. He criticised refs over a period of time on multiple occasions on social media after a warning. Sexton had an altercation in the heat of the battle in private. Not really similar.

It's a lot closer to Dylan Hartley's 11 week ban for abusing the ref. Hartley used stronger language - but then was actually in the middle of the game and IIRC claimed it wasn't directed at the ref - and had more of a previous disciplinary history, but Sexton's was definitely directed at the ref and was at the end of a game he didn't play in so he had the option to stay out of their way and not engage.

Another comparison is Marler's 6 week ban (albeit with 4 weeks suspended) for sledging Jake Heenan. It was the sort of comment that gets thrown around in scrums all the time; except that Marler happened to direct it at a player whose mother (unbeknownst to him) was very ill.

3 weeks, missing no games of consequence, seems like a very lenient result and one that sets a dangerous precedent that the penalty for ref abuse is pretty mild.

Not really, what Hartley said was worse and aside from guessing and second hand information we dont really know what Sexton said and what it was over. Hartley also had one of the longest ever rapsheets in rugby, bu contrast Sexton has never had a ban. Hartleys default was not to admit guilt as per the biting incident on Ferris so I wouldnt put much stock in what he said.

Big wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:...Sexton had an altercation in the heat of the battle in private...

It wasn't in the heat of the battle - it was after the match and not on the back of any particularly contentious decisions.  It was basically just sour grapes at losing.  Nor was it in private, it was on the field in clear view of tens of thousands of fans in the stadium, and more on TV.  Even if the words used couldn't be heard it was quite clear he was having a go.  Nor was it a one off comment, he had a go at Spreadbury, then went and had a go at the match officials, and then made more comments in their direction during the medal ceremony.  It's not at all like the Rassie example - which is unique to the best of my knowledge - and shouldn't get that kind of ban.  But it is fair to say that he is lucky to have got the bare minimum entry level.  With full mitigation I'd have expected him to get 5 or 6 weeks for this.

Disagree completely. A lot of guess work and speculation.

Rugby Fan wrote:Russ Petty notes Sexton was given mitigation for admitting to the words he said, while the report also spells out he clearly said more than he admitted.

Petty has a tweet with the record of some abuse levelled at officials. Do look at it for the comments attributed to Richard Cockerill, which you can read at the bottom of his table.

https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1680900778653896704

Interesting stuff. Cockerill must have been well miffed to come out with that barrage. All those were deemed punishable in weeks so Sexton's ban is almost 8 weeks which equates to the highest sanction on that sheet. Can we all agree that 3 games is plenty in that case

Collapse2005 wrote:

Big wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:...Sexton had an altercation in the heat of the battle in private...

It wasn't in the heat of the battle - it was after the match and not on the back of any particularly contentious decisions.  It was basically just sour grapes at losing.  Nor was it in private, it was on the field in clear view of tens of thousands of fans in the stadium, and more on TV.  Even if the words used couldn't be heard it was quite clear he was having a go.  Nor was it a one off comment, he had a go at Spreadbury, then went and had a go at the match officials, and then made more comments in their direction during the medal ceremony.  It's not at all like the Rassie example - which is unique to the best of my knowledge - and shouldn't get that kind of ban.  But it is fair to say that he is lucky to have got the bare minimum entry level.  With full mitigation I'd have expected him to get 5 or 6 weeks for this.

Disagree completely. A lot of guess work and speculation.

The only guesswork is around the actual words used. The rest is well documented and obviously shown via TV coverage.

That being said three weeks is about what I expected. Tom Youngs had a citing for telling a ref he "wasn't effing strong enough" but obviously not effing. He apologised to the ref the following day privately and copped a two week ban reduced to one week if he officiated a certain number of community games (a quite frankly brilliant use of the citing system).

I've not read the verdict so don't know if Sexton apologised after the fact or not or what exactly he said. Having more than one nibble with verbals at the officials obviously isn't a good look, particularly when you aren't playing.

Incorrect. Stating that Sexton had no reason to be upset as there were no innocuous decisions is speculation and guesswork as it isnt kno n what he was upset about.

It also wasnt shown by tv footage, it was a fans camera. It was a private altercation captured by a camera as opposed to Rassies tweets which were meant for public consumption.

I also think he deserved a ban but based on what we know three games is about right.

The transcript would appear to disagree with you, Collapse2005:

RugbPass article on the transcript wrote:He did accept that he wanted “to let them [the officials] know he was unhappy with a couple of their big decisions” and the he had used f-word expletives, how [many] of which he did not know or recall.

Link to full article

Basically, both sides agreed that there was an incident in which Sexton came to the ref team after the match and directly criticised them, using swear words, and the panel took the side of the officials in whether a second incident occurred around the presentation, but dismissed a third incident in the tunnel.

In what way exactly? In so far as the refs testimonies for the most part said they couldnt hear what he said to them? Like I said based on what is known the ban seems about right.

Collapse2005 wrote:In what way exactly? In so far as the refs testimonies for the most part said they couldnt hear what he said to them? Like I said based on what is known the ban seems about right.

In the way that he admitted the substance of it (per the quote above) even if no-one remembers exactly what was said. It's not a point in dispute: he admits that he directly criticised the officials and swore at them.

I dont think I ever disputed that, I said we dont know exactly what was said nor the reasons why he was upset. Does the transcript dispute that?

Collapse2005 wrote:
Disagree completely. A lot of guess work and speculation.

I'll happily admit that I've speculated that it was sour grapes and I stand by that speculation.  For clarity when I say on the back of contentious decisions I mean normally when there's ref abuse it is in the immediate aftermath, something happens, ref blows the whistle, and before someone's frontal lobe has a chance to kick in they blurt something out. Even if Sexton disagreed with some of the decisions in game (and I don't think anyone outside Leinster thinks they were overly hard done by), he'd had time to think better of berating the ref. He was just very angry, sour even . Unless I'm missing something, pretty much the rest of what I've said is in the written judgement, and seems to have been acknowledged by Sexton in the hearing - I don't think there is anything contentious there.

The only contentious thing for me is how long the judgement took. I dont recall a prescient for it taking two months for a hearing. Not sure why is should take so long nor how that is fair on the Ireland team who had nothing to do with the incident.

Collapse2005 wrote:I dont see how what Rassie did was particularly comparable. He criticised refs over a period of time on multiple occasions on social media after a warning. Sexton had an altercation in the heat of the battle in private. Not really similar.

I didn’t say that it was, a few others have made the comparisons though. As someone else said the Rassie incident is unique and in my opinion far worse. Funnily enough Collapse, I remember you being this one-eyed towards Liam Williams in the 6N. Don’t like it up um, eh?

formerly known as Sam wrote:I've not read the verdict so don't know if Sexton apologised after the fact or not or what exactly he said.

The report says:

c. He apologised to TS [Spreadbury]. We accept JS was intending to and believed he had apologised for "his conduct on Saturday", which in his mind included what we have called incident 1. Until the hearing, he had not apologised to any match official. Then it was done through his Counsel. Even if he was told not to contact them directly, he could still have found another route to apologise before now.

d. We do accept he feels what is properly characterised as remorse, and no self-pity and that it is genuine.

I love Liam Williams Mikey, he is my favourite chimney sweep turned rugby player. He is the most carded player in six nations history though.

Collapse2005 wrote:The only contentious thing for me is how long the judgement took. I dont recall a prescient for it taking two months for a hearing. Not sure why is should take so long nor how that is fair on the Ireland team who had nothing to do with the incident.

I meant contentious statements in my comment, but on this at least I completely agree with you!

Collapse2005 wrote:I love Liam Williams Mikey, he is my favourite chimney sweep turned rugby player. He is the most carded player in six nations history though.

He’s married, sorry.

Liam Williams has never received a red card in the 6 Nations. There’s actually two Irish players joint second for red cards in the hall of fame (no surprise to see the sh|*house is one of them).

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I love Liam Williams Mikey, he is my favourite chimney sweep turned rugby player. He is the most carded player in six nations history though.

He’s married, sorry.

Liam Williams has never received a red card in the 6 Nations. There’s actually two Irish players joint second for red cards in the hall of fame (no surprise to see the sh|*house is one of them).

I know, his wife is quite pretty. He did well.

Joint 2nd with one red card? Lol, come on Mikey. Youre definitely a character!

I think all the talk of this ban "setting a dangerous precedent" is pretty daft.

When has any disciplinary ban ever made any sense?

They are all too long, too short, sends the wrong message, will make players think twice, isn't fair for the rest of the team, doesn't effect the team enough, look what "player" got for the same thing this one is way worse/ nowhere near as bad
What did people expect?

carpet baboon wrote:I think all the talk of this ban "setting a dangerous precedent" is pretty daft.

When has any disciplinary ban ever made any sense?

They are all too long, too short, sends the wrong message, will make players think twice, isn't fair for the rest of the team, doesn't effect the team enough, look what "player" got for the same thing this one is way worse/ nowhere near as bad
What did people expect?

I already mentioned a couple of days ago that I was outraged.  Of course, I was going to be outraged as you describe, regardless of the decision.....

The outrage, in this case, is known in medical terms as 'Autonomic Dysreflexia', and yes, that is a real term (taken only slightly out of context).

It is now an automatic neural response for players when carded to quickly 'apologise' because the apology is a partial "Get Out of Jail Free" card.  Like it sometimes is for 10 year olds.  That is not remotely about Sexton, but all offenders.   However, to me, if a member of a club, who is not a player, abuses a referee, then what kind of standards are we holding ourselves to?  I guess the problem is the standards have been so all over the map.  After this incident I think we should draw a line under this process and establish firmer sanctions with less wiggle room for the adjuticating boards.

There's no doubt the citing process and disciplinary panels as a whole need to be overhauled. Regardless of your opinions on this particular incident I think we can probably all safely say that the panels are anything but consistent.

They can have incidents looked at immediately or take months, they will hand out large penalties or next to nothing for basically the same thing, there is a feeling in some panels in particular that they are taking it easy on people at certain times of the season so they can play international rugby (see numerous french league cases before 6 nations etc)

All in all they are almost completely arbitrary, they just pull a decision on a penalty out of thin air then hand out a reduction if they feel like it and that decision basically from that moment stands for nothing as it will never be talked about in another panel ever again even if the same incident happens the next week.

It definitely has to change.

As for Sexton it will somewhat affect his buildup, while he may usually have been wrapped in cotton wool during the warm ups I don't think that would have been the case this year. He has not played since the last game of the 6 nations if I remember correctly because of injury so that would have been mid March meaning by the time of Ireland first game it would be almost 6 months, I reckon during those warm ups he would have played in at least 1 if not 2 to get himself back into the way of going.

Tim O'Connor, who is no fan of Sexton's demeanour towards officials when he's actually playing, has pointed out two disciplinary decisions which he thinks make for a useful comparison with the recent ruling.

The first is from May 2023, from an incident in the aftermath of a match in February 2023. The coach of Oxford Harlequins RFC faced the following charge.

1. Verbally abused the referee on multiple occasions including:
-Calling the referee 'Mr.Officious'
-Responding 'Yes' when the referee asked her whether she was saying that he was
deliberately biased
-By stating 'you are a cheat' to the referee.
2. Disrespecting the authority of the referee by stating that the performance of the referee was one of the worst she had ever witnessed, stating that the referee was
incompetent and that he did not know the laws.

She got a six week ban, suspended for three weeks.

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/a4/a40a0a80-4924-4b5e-b002-af70aa8f761a/Metcalfe-JonesOxfordHarlequinsJudgmentMay23.pdf

The second is from April 2022, where a player from Hull RFC was charged with abusing the referee during the match. This was actually dismissed, as the panel couldn't determine whether the player had directed specific abuse at the referee, or used an expletive in general frustration. Dylan Hartley probably wishes he could have had that disciplinary panel.

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/68/68b9baeb-8995-4c83-be5a-47f6480af322/HardingHull512JudgmentMay23(final).pdf

As others have pointed out, disciplinary decisions appear to come in all shapes and sizes.

Stephen Ferris’ comments , another one-eye. Some of you still think you’re above the laws.

mikey_dragon wrote:Stephen Ferris’ comments , another one-eye. Some of you still think you’re above the laws.

Glass houses Mikey, glass houses.
Every nation has its own mono-eyed ex players and pundits

And yet there’s only one nation to claim that they don’t, so keep your glass house .

Rugby Fan wrote:The first is from May 2023, from an incident in the aftermath of a match in February 2023. The coach of Oxford Harlequins RFC faced the following charge.

1. Verbally abused the referee on multiple occasions including:
-Calling the referee 'Mr.Officious'
-Responding 'Yes' when the referee asked her whether she was saying that he was
deliberately biased
-By stating 'you are a cheat' to the referee.
2. Disrespecting the authority of the referee by stating that the performance of the referee was one of the worst she had ever witnessed, stating that the referee was
incompetent and that he did not know the laws.

She got a six week ban, suspended for three weeks..

Dylan Hartley received a whole lot more punishment for a whole lot less.  Even given his priors, what he received should not have been worse than this. Or, perhaps better said, what the coach received should have been equivalent or worse than Hartley's ban, not the other way.