England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

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Carried on..............

Interesting...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67569874

Farrell giving 2024 6N a miss for mental health/family.

Well i hope its not because of the grief hes been getting for the last few years and during the world cup. Whatever people think of him on the pithc...it shouldnt go further.

As to England....Ford in Pole position for the 10 spot....but who the F...is Captain...

Very interesting. He takes an absolute pasting from many regardless of performance. After the World Rugby fumble around his citing that stuff spilled over into utter vitriol from a lot of folk. His predominantly good injury record, Sarries usually have elongated seasons due to KO rugby and being rated so highly by successive England and Lions setups means he has played a ton of rugby too. I can understand why he'd be exhausted. Good on him for knowing it and making the call to take a break.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not overly surprised that a prop who excels in the scrum looked decent when our coach doesn't look much outside, more a restriction of ambition really. Ditto with all our fly halves. Kicking the ball away all the time is all fair and well but when we have the 3 we do along with a guy like Fin Smith in the wings it's just a waste.

Or props that look decent in the scrum generally look good... It's almost like it's their job and conceding penalties in that department can hurt a team in tight international games...

Most of the top international teams don't play in their own half. We've been over this several times. See Ireland, South Africa and France as reference. The issues for England were how toothless we were in the final third and that is an area we need to work on.

mountain man wrote:Interesting...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67569874

Farrell giving 2024 6N a miss for mental health/family.

Hopefully not down to online trolls but suspect it probably is. Hopefully the mid season rest bite is good for him long term.

As for captain hopefully Borthwick picks a guaranteed first name on team sheet player. Possibly Itoje or Jamie George?

mountain man wrote:As for captain hopefully Borthwick picks a guaranteed first name on team sheet player. Possibly Itoje or Jamie George?

Genge was also part of the leadership group

Is Genge though starting prop? Every game?

Not many starters are guarenteed though...

Jamie George
Cole - If he doesnt retire
Itoje
Chessum fighting with Martin for the other lock spot?
Ford
Lawrence
Steward

Cant comment on Chessum or Martin (are they leaders) but the others dont strike me as Captains...even Itoje.

mountain man wrote:As for captain hopefully Borthwick picks a guaranteed first name on team sheet player. Possibly Itoje or Jamie George?

Genge would be a possible. Don't think George or Itoje have done much captaining before. Tom Curry if he's back in time could be an option, if Ben Curry finds himself back in form he's good at communicating with the ref. Ford if he's selected over Smith(s).

Pick your side then pick your captain for me.

With lots of talented back row options but Lawes and Curry unavailable I wouldn't mind looking at a 6-2 split. Have two back rows on the bench to use for impact whilst reducing the number of starters who need to play the full 80. The Boks have been very good at that to get the best out of players like Wiese and Kwagga.

1.Genge 2.Langdon 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Ludlam 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Daly 14.Murley/Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Pearson 21.Barbeary/Mercer 22.JvP 23.Smith

I like the look of something like that for instance. Genge, Ford or Itoje all seem reasonable captaincy options from that. I'm of the view that captains have far less influence now than is often discussed though so that isn't a massive concern for me.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not overly surprised that a prop who excels in the scrum looked decent when our coach doesn't look much outside, more a restriction of ambition really. Ditto with all our fly halves. Kicking the ball away all the time is all fair and well but when we have the 3 we do along with a guy like Fin Smith in the wings it's just a waste.

Or props that look decent in the scrum generally look good... It's almost like it's their job and conceding penalties in that department can hurt a team in tight international games...

Most of the top international teams don't play in their own half. We've been over this several times. See Ireland, South Africa and France as reference. The issues for England were how toothless we were in the final third and that is an area we need to work on.

Surely our 13 year old scrum coach will be able to improve anyone?!

king_carlos wrote:Pick your side then pick your captain for me.

With lots of talented back row options but Lawes and Curry unavailable I wouldn't mind looking at a 6-2 split. Have two back rows on the bench to use for impact whilst reducing the number of starters who need to play the full 80. The Boks have been very good at that to get the best out of players like Wiese and Kwagga.

1.Genge 2.Langdon 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Ludlam 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Daly 14.Murley/Watson 15.Steward

16.George 17.Rodd 18.Sinckler 19.Martin 20.Pearson 21.Barbeary/Mercer 22.JvP 23.Smith

I like the look of something like that for instance. Genge, Ford or Itoje all seem reasonable captaincy options from that. I'm of the view that captains have far less influence now than is often discussed though so that isn't a massive concern for me.

If Sleightholme stays fit and playing as he is...id really like to see him in the mix...

Genge will be starting LH. Who knows if Marler will be there anyway. Genge is also a leader so would be logical although he's not going to be there for the last 20 minutes.

If Mercer is involved he might be an interesting choice because I think he was an exceptional U20 captain and he might be able to carry that across, but that is a big IF.

Itoje never seems to be that bothered, and I wouldn't want to add to his burden.

Personally I think captain is overplayed, it's not like cricket where key decisions made every 30 seconds.

Pick best team and captain is then best candidate from there, has to be a guaranteed starter and ideally someone who is calm and sensible with previous club captaincy although even that not necessary.
Jamie George for me would fit the bill but again not a biggy.

Farrell is class but he does get an awful lot of stick. Being a but too much in your face and playing for Saracens? Ford got all the plaudits in the world for his game vs Argentina and then Farrell lambasted for playing to the same game plan. There is a big gap in leadership when he's not on the pitch though.

Ludlam and I think George have been skippers for their respective clubs. Other than that genge has had experience of international captaincy. Will be interesting to see who gets the nod. My money's on George.

lostinwales wrote:If Mercer is involved he might be an interesting choice because I think he was an exceptional U20 captain and he might be able to carry that across, but that is a big IF.

Itoje's one of the most influential U20s skippers we've seen if going back to that sort of age. He captained Sarries to the AWC trophy in his first full senior season as well.

With Itoje it likely relies on whether he wants it. The fact that he's skippered Sarries relatively little in the intervening years suggests he may not. Some just don't like the role.

As said before I'm a touch sceptical of Mercer's skills transferring to the current international game even though I rate him. He's significantly less physical than most international 8s. Terrific skills elsewhere. His hands and footwork around contact are great. He's a really smart reader of the game too. He doesn't hit notably hard in either the carry or tackle though. With how organised good international teams now are that's looking more and more like a prerequisite. Offloads and smart jackal work are great, but not so influential if your team is consistently behind the gain line in attack and defence. His club performances mean I'm very open to him getting chances and would be happily proved wrong. I've got that nagging concern though.

No-one ever mention Lewis Ludlow these days. He was only the 5th player in English rugby history to captain the national side on debut.

Rugby Fan wrote:No-one ever mention Lewis Ludlow these days. He was only the 5th player in English rugby history to captain the national side on debut.

He also wasn't particularly impressive in those summer internationals against USA and Canada, sadly.

A very consistent performer for Gloucester but I think a fair few others have surpassed him.

Rugby Fan wrote:No-one ever mention Lewis Ludlow these days. He was only the 5th player in English rugby history to captain the national side on debut.

Not mentioned for good reason.

mountain man wrote:Personally I think captain is overplayed, it's not like cricket where key decisions made every 30 seconds.

Pick best team and captain is then best candidate from there, has to be a guaranteed starter and ideally someone who is calm and sensible with previous club captaincy although even that not necessary.
Jamie George for me would fit the bill but again not a biggy.

I think these days it is one of those things where they mostly won't make a difference, particularly if they have a good leadership team around them. But really good leaders will, just like bad leaders can pull their teams down. They are also on point and have to deal with a great deal of media attention as well as doing their day job, and that doesn't suit everyone.

Some players just make everyone around them play better.

Only going to be available for a while, but Ludlam is an experienced captain, he could do a job for the 6N at least. See what happens after that.

So Owen Farrell has decided to mend/improve his mental health and take some time away from the test scene and won't be available for the 6N next year. I hope the media and internet trolls are satisfied with the years of constant negativity and criticism towards him, both professional and personally. Truly disgusted at his treatment.

Team for 6n

1 Genge
2 George
3 Cole
4 Martin
5 Itoje
6 Chessum
7 Underhill
8 Earl

9 Mitchell
10 Ford
11 Daly
12 Manu
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

I would hope that Genge isn't the Captain. The couple of times he has taken the reins his communication to the team hasn't been great.

Granted one of those times was the drubbing by France at HQ when we were in complete disarray but he did go missing as a Captain that day. I was not impressed. He doesn't seem to be loud enough.

I think George is a good shout, but that leaves us a bit short when it comes to developing young hookers. We don't want players like Theo Dan getting bit part cameos of a minute or two. It's not fair on the players. Itoje almost always plays the full 80. Becoming skipper might even stop him whooping and hollering when we win a simple scrum or breakdown...

Mr Bounce wrote:I would hope that Genge isn't the Captain. The couple of times he has taken the reins his communication to the team hasn't been great.

Granted one of those times was the drubbing by France at HQ when we were in complete disarray but he did go missing as a Captain that day. I was not impressed. He doesn't seem to be loud enough.

Realistically the captain doesn't really lead the team on the field. There will be a leadership group that will do it between them. The captain is the one of the leadership team that's got the job of talking to the ref.

Genge was the social secretary, the guy setting the squad culture under Eddie. Not sure if that continued under Borthwick.

You'd have thought we'd have Ford, Genge, George all in that leadership group at least on the pitch. All more than capable of talking to the team. Often you want one of the halfbacks directing troops if it isn't going to plan.

Geordie wrote:Team for 6n

1 Genge
2 George
3 Cole
4 Martin
5 Itoje
6 Chessum
7 Underhill
8 Earl

9 Mitchell
10 Ford
11 Daly
12 Manu
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

Nah not sure about that. Daly certainly not and although Dan Cole is still quality we do need to look at other options.

Genge, George, Sinckler
Chessum, Itoje
Underhill, TWillis, Earl
Mitchell, Ford
Atkinson, Lawrence
Freeman, Steward, Watson

Dan/LCD, Obano/Rodd, Painter/Heyes, Martin, Pearson, Care, Smith, Manu.

Great chance to blood some centres this tournament. We desperately need to get some more caps in Lawrence and ideally a 12 (Atkinson has reliably been in form for a while now). I'd like to see Painter and Heyes both get some opportunities unless Stuart really pulls his finger out. Similar at loosehead with Obano and Rodd get them both some game time. Marler and Cole would be the safe options but keep selecting them and we're putting off the inevitable. First three games are Italy, Wales and Scotland. Experiment and if it goes well then great, if not revert back to the more experienced options as the games get harder.

Not sure on Care really but given injuries and Mitchell's ability to go off radar the experience on the bench might be useful. I'd be tempted to give Warr the bench Vs Italy though just to see what he can offer.

Sam I honestly dont want to see Sinkler near the squad. Also the stories are ye has chronic back problems which is causing his lacklustre performances...whichi in that case..he isnt going to improve. Hell I'd rather they looked at painter than Sivnkler start.

I'd love to see Atkinson and Lawrence in the centres but I suspect it'll be Manu...

Mr Bounce wrote:I would hope that Genge isn't the Captain. The couple of times he has taken the reins his communication to the team hasn't been great.

Granted one of those times was the drubbing by France at HQ when we were in complete disarray but he did go missing as a Captain that day. I was not impressed. He doesn't seem to be loud enough.

I think George is a good shout, but that leaves us a bit short when it comes to developing young hookers. We don't want players like Theo Dan getting bit part cameos of a minute or two. It's not fair on the players. Itoje almost always plays the full 80. Becoming skipper might even stop him whooping and hollering when we win a simple scrum or breakdown...

Dan isn't going to be in the match day squad as LCD will probably be starting by that point.

Not sure Sinckler deserves place in squad unless he has a big turnaround next couple months. He's been way off it for England last couple years.

I suppose with Farrell ruling himself out at least we won't see him at 12 so that does potentially open up another option.

As for wings, will Watson be fit and stay fit. Must be someone other than Daly to be given chance, not that Daly is a bad player but thought we wanted a rebuild and centres/wings are where it's needed most.

Geordie wrote:Sam I honestly dont want to see Sinkler near the squad. Also the stories are ye has chronic back problems which is causing his lacklustre performances...whichi in that case..he isnt going to improve.  Hell I'd rather they looked at painter than Sivnkler start.

I'd love to see Atkinson and Lawrence in the centres but I suspect it'll be Manu...

Manu struggled to finish a game at the world cup. Given the level of the games I think we leaned on his experience, we might still go back to it for the later games Vs France and Ireland but earlier in the competition I think we might give a new combination a chance.

I'm not a big fan of Sinckler but his experience and both the age of Cole and the indifferent form of Stuart I feel push us that way in the short term. Not sure we really want to roll into the 6N with Painter, Heyes and Stuart. I suppose we could start with either Painter or Heyes and then use Cole off the bench to go after the substitute loosehead at scrum time. Didn't work particularly well last 6N and big Dan does struggle to play much more than 50 mins at international level.

To be fair Tuilagi had a heavy workload. In 1 match Ford passed to him 3 times.

Get Will Collier into the squad
He's only 32 - Prime tighthead age

Starting front row could be -

Genge, George, Collier
Banch - Obano, Dan, Painter

Sinkler hasnt shown top form since previous WC and his move to Bizzle
Stuart has had variable form since his injury
And now is the time to introduce some newer caps into the system.

As for wing, will Murley get a chance? Deserves it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair Tuilagi had a heavy workload. In 1 match Ford passed to him 3 times.

Generally you don't want to pass to him much though. He crashes the ball up puts a bit of panic into the opposition and then is the dummy option that holds the defence. Of course the forwards ability to drop the ball did limit the number of phases in the 22 at the world cup.

propdavid_london wrote:Get Will Collier into the squad
He's only 32 - Prime tighthead age

Starting front row could be -

Genge, George, Collier
Banch - Obano, Dan, Painter

Sinkler hasnt shown top form since previous WC and his move to Bizzle
Stuart has had variable form since his injury
And now is the time to introduce some newer caps into the system.  

Isn't Collier injured? He's also not great at reloading and going again. He won't make the next world cup and is a less good Dan Cole style option currently.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair Tuilagi had a heavy workload. In 1 match Ford passed to him 3 times.

Generally you don't want to pass to him much though. He crashes the ball up puts a bit of panic into the opposition and then is the dummy option that holds the defence. Of course the forwards ability to drop the ball did limit the number of phases in the 22 at the world cup.

Well I have to admit when you see how potent we are are now and the space the wingers are getting when passed the ball it's hard to argue that the tactics aren't working.

mountain man wrote:As for wing, will Murley get a chance? Deserves it.

Roebuck will be the winger who is introduced this 6Ns I reckon.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair Tuilagi had a heavy workload. In 1 match Ford passed to him 3 times.

Generally you don't want to pass to him much though. He crashes the ball up puts a bit of panic into the opposition and then is the dummy option that holds the defence. Of course the forwards ability to drop the ball did limit the number of phases in the 22 at the world cup.

Well I have to admit when you see how potent we are are now and the space the wingers are getting when passed the ball it's hard to argue that the tactics aren't working.

The attack in the opposition third of the pitch didn't work. I think we're all rather hopeful that Jones the new attack coach is going to bring some things in here to help that.

We got plenty of time in the opposition third of the pitch though so it's hard to argue that the general tactics weren't effective, even if they were a bit dull. It's fine only playing and taking risks in the opposition third of the pitch but when you then get into that area you need to be able to open up and really bring more to the party than just trying to bully your way over.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:As for wing, will Murley get a chance? Deserves it.

Roebuck will be the winger who is introduced this 6Ns I reckon.

I think we might see Freeman given another go. Same age as Roebuck, similar scoring stats this season (well Freeman scored a lot more in the PRC but that doesn't really count for much). Same age but Freeman is bigger, possibly quicker, has better all round skills and covers more positions.

I think Roebuck might be in the A team game just to help secure his allegiance for the next few years in case Scotland take an interest. He's definitely looked decent over the last season or two.

Freeman, Steward and Watson would give us a lot of security at the back, give us an advantage in the kicking battle but still offer a range of carrying options on attack with two wingers that can finish.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair Tuilagi had a heavy workload. In 1 match Ford passed to him 3 times.

Generally you don't want to pass to him much though. He crashes the ball up puts a bit of panic into the opposition and then is the dummy option that holds the defence. Of course the forwards ability to drop the ball did limit the number of phases in the 22 at the world cup.

Well I have to admit when you see how potent we are are now and the space the wingers are getting when passed the ball it's hard to argue that the tactics aren't working.

The attack in the opposition third of the pitch didn't work. I think we're all rather hopeful that Jones the new attack coach is going to bring some things in here to help that.

We got plenty of time in the opposition third of the pitch though so it's hard to argue that the general tactics weren't effective, even if they were a bit dull. It's fine only playing and taking risks in the opposition third of the pitch but when you then get into that area you need to be able to open up and really bring more to the party than just trying to bully your way over.

I think that Jones' role is still to be decided, he could be doing anything. I understand that from a SA pov his role was mainly about idenitifying kinks in the armour of opposition or how they like to attack themselves and put in specific plans, so may not have a strong role potentially in how we set out to attack in general. I'm also not hopeful that Borthwick will radically alter his approach of kick and hope the opposition make mistakes. We don't take risks anywhere, it's like watching England with Southgate. And it's the reason I'm not really fussed who we play at 9 to 15, we know how we'll play and it won't bring the best out of very many of our players.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:As for wing, will Murley get a chance? Deserves it.

Roebuck will be the winger who is introduced this 6Ns I reckon.

I think we might see Freeman given another go. Same age as Roebuck, similar scoring stats this season (well Freeman scored a lot more in the PRC but that doesn't really count for much). Same age but Freeman is bigger, possibly quicker, has better all round skills and covers more positions.

I think Roebuck might be in the A team game just to help secure his allegiance for the next few years in case Scotland take an interest. He's definitely looked decent over the last season or two.

Freeman, Steward and Watson would give us a lot of security at the back, give us an advantage in the kicking battle but still offer a range of carrying options on attack with two wingers that can finish.

I'm interested to see how Freeman goes in midfield more than trying him on the wing. We get limited opportunities wider out and I'm just not sure his decision making is quite there. He's scored alot, he's young maybe he just needs a run but I'm putting him in the bracket of Malins at the moment. Roebucks kick chase is excellent, he's fast, he defends well think that ticks the boxes for England.

Primary winger skill being occasionally chasing kicks and otherwise staying warm on the touchlines?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:As for wing, will Murley get a chance? Deserves it.

Roebuck will be the winger who is introduced this 6Ns I reckon.

I think we might see Freeman given another go. Same age as Roebuck, similar scoring stats this season (well Freeman scored a lot more in the PRC but that doesn't really count for much). Same age but Freeman is bigger, possibly quicker, has better all round skills and covers more positions.

I think Roebuck might be in the A team game just to help secure his allegiance for the next few years in case Scotland take an interest. He's definitely looked decent over the last season or two.

Freeman, Steward and Watson would give us a lot of security at the back, give us an advantage in the kicking battle but still offer a range of carrying options on attack with two wingers that can finish.

I'm interested to see how Freeman goes in midfield more than trying him on the wing. We get limited opportunities wider out and I'm just not sure his decision making is quite there. He's scored alot, he's young maybe he just needs a run but I'm putting him in the bracket of Malins at the moment. Roebucks kick chase is excellent, he's fast, he defends well think that ticks the boxes for England.

I am also interested to see how Freeman goes in the midfield. Will certainly help Saints. But like anyone, he has to learn the position.

I would like to see England have a look at Ibitoye as a winger. Huge pace, and elusive. In good form for Brizzle despite them not doing brilliantly.

Cunningham-South like Willis in at blindside for his club.

And no Collier isn't injured.

And Quirkes on the bench with LCD starting.

Apparently Edinburgh and Scotland are about to make a big play for Gus Warr.

I have seen a lot of names mentioned as possible THs to replace Cole and Sinkler. Paul Hill has been quietly competent for Saints this season. He also adds the advantage of being mobile and a decent ball handler. It will be interesting to see how he goes this weekend against Sarries.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have seen a lot of names mentioned as possible THs to replace Cole and Sinkler. Paul Hill has been quietly competent for Saints this season. He also adds the advantage of being mobile and a decent ball handler. It will be interesting to see how he goes this weekend against Sarries.

Hill has always been very good with ball in hand. Agile, quick, and powerful makes a good combination. Scrummaging historically not quite at that level, though.