Champions Cup; and the other one if someone wants to comment

First topic message reminder :

Couldn't see another thread on a quick look so sorry if I've missed it.

This weeks fixtures as follows (lifted from the beeb):

Friday
POOL 1
Connacht v Bordeaux Bègles
20:00

POOL 3
Glasgow Warriors v Northampton Saints
20:00

EUROPEAN CHALLENGE CUP
POOL 3
ASM Clermont Auvergne v Edinburgh
20:00

....Guernsey vs Bury St Edmonds as well which is a biggy

Saturday
POOL 1
Bulls v Saracens
17:30

Bristol v Lyon
20:00

POOL 2
Bath v Ulster
15:15

Toulouse v Cardiff Rugby
15:15

POOL 3
Toulon v Exeter Chiefs
13:00

Munster v Bayonne
17:30

EUROPEAN CHALLENGE CUP
POOL 1
Zebre v Cheetahs
13:00

Sharks v Pau
15:15

Dragons v Oyonnax
20:00

POOL 2
Ospreys v Benetton
17:30

POOL 3
Black Lion v Gloucester
13:00

Castres v Scarlets
15:15

Sunday
POOL 2
Racing 92 v Harlequins
17:30

POOL 4
Sale v Stade Francais
13:00

La Rochelle v Leinster
15:15

Leicester Tigers v Stormers
15:15

EUROPEAN CHALLENGE CUP
POOL 2
Perpignan v Lions
13:00

Newcastle Falcons vMontpellier
15:15

There also looked like a double knock-on in midfield before LR kicked to ball into the Tigers dead-ball zone.   Officials seem to be calling a lot in LR's favour but Tigers wasting the extra men big time.

king_carlos wrote:Skelton lucky not to get yellow for his slap down near the line IMO.

When La Rochelle get the ball they just clearly have more power though. The number of ball carriers across their side is brutal. Because they are winning collisions on both sides of the ball it means that their jackals are having a good time attacking the breakdown whilst Tigers are struggling there.

Tigers once again lacking precision when they get in the oppo 22. Plenty of handling errors and that's despite running pretty basic patterns.

Montoya, Martin, Chess and Hatherell have mostly impressed from Tigers perspective. All in the pack though.

Bourgarit is a fantastic player. If it weren't for Marchand and Mauvaka I expect he'd have a far bigger profile. He nails the basics, is terrific over the ball and so dynamic as a carrier.

This is a real drubbing - worse than the score line would indicate. La Rochelle seemed so comfortable when down to 13 men. Such a good team.

How many yards forward did that line-out throw go - the officials must all be cross-eyed

That was crap from Tigers ... although not sure why Martin getting a shoulder in the face wasn't checked ...

Nice finish there as a consolation.

La Rochelle just on a different level. Their physicality and breakdown work is obviously excellent but the playmaking axis of Kerr-Barlow-Hastoy-Seuteni-Dulin is so good. Very much in that modern mould of having playmakers and kickers throughout the backline to control the game. A very good side.

Tigers had chances to make it closer. They certainly squandered chances with poor errors, which sums up the season so far in reality. Just beaten by a much better side though.

Heaf wrote:That was crap from Tigers ... although not sure why Martin getting a shoulder in the face wasn't checked ...

Or Kata. TMO was MIA though it made little difference.

No openside again means no real breakdown threat for Tigers. McKellar needs to wake up to that.

No attack coach really does hurt us. We're just to one dimensional and against high quality sides like La Rochelle it really shows as a gaping difference I'm quality.

Nice bit of skill from Kelly at the end. One of the few Tigers who can say he had a good game.

Yep Tigers totally outgunned by LR and the officials didn't affect the result, but they need to do much better. Just one obvious example was the line out where LR threw long and their player caught it about 3-4 yards on the Tigers side - how can the ref and AR both miss that?  The AR hadn't moved off his spot behind the hooker so how can he not have realised when the receiving player caught it several yards to his left?

Does sound as if Farrell is off from those Lancaster comments.

Farrell messing up his passing again and this side are lethal in finishing.

A bit of rotation from Sarries but this is still a strong side for them and they don’t look remotely at the races today.

Aw, Will Rowlands couldn’t get over the line today.

Poorfour wrote:A bit of rotation from Sarries but this is still a strong side for them and they don’t look remotely at the races today.

Doesn't look remotely look like they are in France.

Bordeaux have such a dangerous backline, give them an inch and you're under you own posts. Sarries have been lacklustre and UBB have cut them to shreds.

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:A bit of rotation from Sarries but this is still a strong side for them and they don’t look remotely at the races today.

Doesn't look remotely look like they are in France.  

Why am I deriving just a wee bit of perverted pleasure out of this?

Wow Saracens getting humped...

You know the expression: "It ain't over until the fat lady sings"?
Damn, she is singing right in the Sarrie's ears!

Geordie wrote:Wow Saracens getting humped...

40 points down with a quarter of the game to play isn't a fun position for them to be in.

Farrell looks miles off form. Sarries look rocked to their foundations by this UBB performance.

I just hope Sarries take Itoje off soon to give him a rest.

Sarries finally pull one back as I type this. Looks like UBB gifted them that one a bit.

doctor_grey wrote:You know the expression:  "It ain't over until the fat lady sings"?
Damn, she is singing right in the Sarrie's ears!

Wow. Great call doc.

Probably should have been a 3rd there!

Am odd scrum that. Never seen a hooker get folded quite like before.

Bizarre end could have been tries for Saracens but the attack is great. More of that every where please.

UBB took their foot off the gas a bit. Seemed to jerk back to life after the second Sarries try. Was it nine tries in the end? Scoreline could have been even more one sided had Jalibert got his kicking boots on. That backline is all available to France for the 6N and bar Lucu 26 at most. Lot of talent for UBB and France for years there.

formerly known as Sam wrote:UBB took their foot off the gas a bit. Seemed to jerk back to life after the second Sarries try. Was it nine tries in the end? Scoreline could have been even more one sided had Jalibert got his kicking boots on. That backline is all available to France for the 6N and bar Lucu 26 at most. Lot of talent for UBB and France for years there.

And, I think, also what may be a significant drop off by Saracens. Only question is if this is a temporary blip or not.

Given how well McCall tends to turn pigs ears to purses can you really bet against them doing it again.

I thought Quins 4th and 5th tries weren't tries, there has been a bit of angst online over it and for the Glasgow disallowed try in the dying moments. Quins and Bath are high flying in the premiership so I think most expected them to beat Cardiff anyway, given they have much better squads on the whole. Quins played some good rugby for sure, I don't think their squad is superstar but they are certainly doing a lot right on and off the field, perhaps Cardiff can learn a thing or two (like getting Adam Jones back here ).  

I don't see anyone really challenging the French clubs and Leinster when it comes to the latter stages. Perhaps Bulls will, their strength up front is ridiculous.

Looking at the Challenge Cup, it seems it will have a lot of qualifiers, the top 4 in each pool plus and the fifth ranked teams in the Champs Cup. I'm not sure I like this format but I remember giving up trying to understand it a while ago.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given how well McCall tends to turn pigs ears to purses can you really bet against them doing it again.

Him and Baxter have a knack for it.

Looking at the Challenge Cup, it seems it will have a lot of qualifiers, the top 4 in each pool plus and the fifth ranked teams in the Champs Cup. I'm not sure I like this format but I remember giving up trying to understand it a while ago.[/quote]

Understand it?
Does anyone?
I just watch the games and wait to see who goes where after the pools, my poor alcohol addled brain can only compute so much.

Teams with 1 win in the pool stages qualifying for the KOs was a bit of a turning point for me where I struggled to engage as much. Basically a point at which you might as well rename the pool stages, "who gives a f**k as long as everyone has two guaranteed home games stage".

There's definitely still brilliant teams in Europe and the later KOs will have great matches between those sides. The last two La Rochelle vs Leinster finals have basically been high international level contests. The level of rotation earlier on that's now being seen due to the pools not mattering is fairly depressing for the big draw tournament though.

king_carlos wrote:Teams with 1 win in the pool stages qualifying for the KOs was a bit of a turning point for me where I struggled to engage as much. Basically a point at which you might as well rename the pool stages, "who gives a f**k as long as everyone has two guaranteed home games stage".

There's definitely still brilliant teams in Europe and the later KOs will have great matches between those sides. The last two La Rochelle vs Leinster finals have basically been high international level contests. The level of rotation earlier on that's now being seen due to the pools not mattering is fairly depressing for the big draw tournament though.

I think that's an odd format, and prefer the older formats.

Definitely are some great teams still around, I suppose tournament formats don't matter much to them.

mikey_dragon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Teams with 1 win in the pool stages qualifying for the KOs was a bit of a turning point for me where I struggled to engage as much. Basically a point at which you might as well rename the pool stages, "who gives a f**k as long as everyone has two guaranteed home games stage".

There's definitely still brilliant teams in Europe and the later KOs will have great matches between those sides. The last two La Rochelle vs Leinster finals have basically been high international level contests. The level of rotation earlier on that's now being seen due to the pools not mattering is fairly depressing for the big draw tournament though.

I think that's an odd format, and prefer the older formats.

Definitely are some great teams still around, I suppose tournament formats don't matter much to them.

It is kind of an odd format. But, I think I prefer some version of this as I like teams playing more teams in the pool play instead of the home and homes. Probably puts me in a decided minority. Again...

I’ve not really understood the rationale for changing the format of the competition (although admittedly I haven’t looked at it too closely). I guess to have more match ups between bigger teams? But if teams are rotating their line ups, what is the point?

I’d personally have preferred pools of four, but perhaps fewer teams to compete in the tournament. Less dead-rubbers, more teams who want to take it seriously?

Cumbrian wrote:I’ve not really understood the rationale for changing the format of the competition (although admittedly I haven’t looked at it too closely). I guess to have more match ups between bigger teams? But if teams are rotating their line ups, what is the point?

I’d personally have preferred pools of four, but perhaps fewer teams to compete in the tournament. Less dead-rubbers, more teams who want to take it seriously?

There used to be an extra week in the schedule for the Heineken Cup. Hence 4 team pools, home and away games, 6 pool fixtures. Then QF, SF and final. 9 weekends. Now the tournament has 8 weekends. So they ended up with 4 pools games, last 16, QF, SF and final.

They've then been stumbling from one mess to another trying to find something that works. Which this doesn't really. For me at least.

I wouldn't mind seeing a straight KO format tried for the Champions Cup. There's currently 24 teams in the Champions Cup and 18 in the Challenge Cup. Expand the first round of a Champions Cup KO competition to 32 teams you could have the below over 8 weekends:

Round of 32 - Home and away. Winner on aggregate goes through to last 16. Loser drops into the Challenge Cup.
Round of 16 - Home and away. Winner to QFs. Loser eliminated.
QFs - Home and away. Loser eliminated.
SF - One leg. Home teams decided by best two points differentials in the QFs.
Final - One leg at a neutral venue that's set at the start of the season.

That would leave 10 of the current teams in the Challenge Cup. Expand that to 16 by bringing in other Rugby Europe Super Cup teams as well as Black Lion. The first round of the Challenge Cup could then be used for seeding against the losing Champions Cup teams in the next round:

First round with 16 teams, used for seeding - Home and away legs.
Round of 32 with eliminated Champions Cup teams added - Home and away legs. Winner goes through.
Round of 16, QF, SF and final - All one leg KO games.

That would get all teams their guaranteed 2 home games, which is what most clubs actually care about, whilst keeping both comps at 8 weekends. Then for the Champions Cup especially every game might have a bit more riding on it again.

The first round of the Challenge Cup might be a limp affair, admittedly. Being brutal though, if teams aren't qualifying in the 32 club KO tournament then how much emphasis are they realistically putting on European games anyway? If a side has struggled in their domestic league to that extent the season before then their focus is very likely not going to be the Challenge Cup at the end of the day.

That would be good for watching on tv, but much less good for clubs. Whenever you get a “weird” pool stage where teams in the pool don’t all play each other, it’s always designed to ensure that each club gets a minimum number of home games. In the current format, each club gets two home games with visitors from another league, which usually guarantees good ticket sales. But the limited number of weekends means home and away against each opponent isn’t doable.

The problem with a straight KO tournament from a club’s point of view is that you might draw an away fixture and get knocked out straight away, which would leave a big hole in your season’s finances. And from a tv revenue perspective, you’d get 31 matches instead of 63 - which would again be a big drop in revenue.

That's why I think home and away games, winner on aggregate would work quite well in a KO tournament, Poorfour. A structure such as above could guarantee the 2 home games whilst hopefully meaning there's a bit more riding on it. If the draw in the early rounds is built around teams in the same leagues not playing each other you get that novelty for fans in the stadium as well.

The downside some might suggest is qualifying for the Champions KO then drawing Leinster/La Rochelle/Toulouse/etc in R1. As a Tigers fan though, I think I'd find it more interesting than the current status quo. Which is generally big rotation in the earliest rounds. Take this year. Stormers sent approaching a C team to Welford Road, then Stade rotated at home. Tigers won both. Then rotated themselves at home to La Rochelle for obvious reasons.

Tigers in the last three seasons, presuming they get pumped at Leinster this weekend, will have played 12, won 9 from the pool stages. Decent record but a ton of weakened sides played in those pool stage wins. Yet when they reach the big boys it's night and day. Personally, I'd prefer even that worst case of drawing a team we'll struggle against in R1. Say we get Toulouse. You see Dupont et al at Welford Road as a season ticket holder. Because that's probably your only two Champions Cup fixtures it should be a full whack Tigers side. Then you can reassess for the Challenge Cup the next week depending on opposition, the injury situation in the squad, etc. I think I'd prefer seeing a full strength Tigers side try and fail against Toulouse in December, then see the kids play Black Lion home and away in January. Rather than play 4 different teams in the top league, but, with an anticlimactic feeling after many team announcements.

Yeah King Carlos, I've had similar thoughts myself on the two legged KO Cup, theres a few formats Ive gone though, there is talk that its the way the HCup will go it the URC and Premiership do combine, to give it a real point of difference from the URCPrem.

Possible even more rounds and start with 64 teams depending on what URC Prem does.

Just on you current model (as I know you'll have put a lot of thought into it) not every team gets two home games, the HCup ones do but the challange Cup ones only get one guaranteed home game.

The top 14 is an issue as they can barely free up any weekends, and they would never drop to a more reasonable 12 teams. So maybe cant be expanded

If the Challenge Cup sides played home and away games in December to deciding seeding for the January games against the losing Champions Cup teams then you'd still get the guaranteed 2 home games a club. The issue would be those home and away games for seeding being a bit limp. As said, there's 42 teams currently though including Black Lions, whilst a Champions Cup KO would have 32 in it minimum. So only the worst performing 9 teams across the Top 14, URC and Prem would actually be in those games for seedings. I'd argue that their focus isn't going to be the Challenge Cup anyway, if we're being brutal, so arguably those games might be a bit limp regardless of format.

French club rugby is a juggernaut that isn't going away. The ProD2 has some very good and well financed teams in it now as well. The FFR have got that pyramid in a brilliant place by creating a system that makes sense, is governed in smaller segments by boards or clubs that understand what that segment needs, but, most importantly, because there is promotion and relegation throughout all the tiers care about what is above and below. For instance, the Top 14 and ProD2 are governed by all the clubs currently in those leagues voting as a block. Hence, they care about the divisions below as many ProD2 clubs have been there. Contrast that with England's embarrassing situation where you have Premiership shareholder clubs who own the league, then pulled up the drawbridge as they were happy to see the leagues below burn to remove the threat of relegation, then look around in befuddlement trying to find someone else to blame when it goes to s**t. That French pyramid is so impressive now, hence the high engagement in France.

So you'd end up with something like:
Week 1 - Round of 32 home/away
Week 2 - Round of 32 away/home
Week 3 - Round of 16 home/away
Week 4 - Round of 16 away/home
Week 5 - QF home/away
Week 6 - QF away/home
Week 7 - SF
Week 8 - Final

58 matches in total, so not far off the current structure. But it only guarantees one home game for each team.

16 teams will get 1 home game; 8 will get 2; 8 will get 3 - so on average 1.75 per team

In the current format, all 24 teams get 2 home games, with 16 more across the Round of 16 QFs and Challenge Cup QFs - so on average 2.66 per team.

Losing Champions Cup teams from the first batch of KO games could very feasibly drop down into the Challenge Cup though.

December
Champions Cup - Home and away - Aggregate KO
Challenge Cup  - Home and away - Used for seeding in January

January
Champions Cup - Winners from December play home and away - Aggregate KO
Challenge Cup - All 16 teams that start in the Challenge Cup play the 16 Champions Cup losers home and away - Aggregate KO

So 2 guaranteed home games for all the current teams plus the 6 you'd have to bring in from the Rugby Europe Super Cup/SA/ProD2 to make up the 16 starting teams in the Challenge Cup so the numbers work. Ideally, I'd love those 6 teams to all be from Rugby Europe, where Black Lion come from, to add something fresh and aid their development.

I actually think European competitions should be played in the summer or after the conclusion of the club season. They should also reduce who qualifies and I would abandon the challenge cup as rarely do teams actually use this as anything other than a development tool for young players. That makes the cost of the challenge cup a little silly.

Ideally you have one premier competition. Make it its own window in the season.

If I had my way I would move the international into a 6 month period. That way clubs could have a 6 month season where they play domestic leagues in 4 months followed by 1-2 months for Europe.

Would make way more sense and also give the majority of non international players a rest period between seasons.

If anyone is recording tonight's matches be aware TNT on Sky seem to have got the Con v Bris and Glas v Toul channels reversed ...

Odd, if I select direct from the program guide it's OK but if I select the recordings in progress they are reversed ... maybe just my box ...

That was a classic outside break from Huw Jones and a poachers try from Kyle Rowe.

Both looking to impress Toonie1

Bristol in trouble with sir already. Caulfield red carded for a stamp on the head of Bealham, even though it looked an accident. Sinckler binned for team offences conceded by Bristol even though the try was scored. Refs normally let it go if the try is scored but clearly the ref wasn't impressed with the Bristol discipline.

Huw Jones really sending down a message to Toonie!

12-0 Glasgow

That red is a bit unlucky.

Anyone know where I can watch the Edinburgh game with English commentary?

Ref could be heard saying it wasn't an accident and was deliberate. Didn't look deliberate at all to me - is reckless enough in that situation for red?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Bristol in trouble with sir already. Caulfield red carded for a stamp on the head of Bealham, even though it looked an accident. Sinckler binned for team offences conceded by Bristol even though the try was scored. Refs normally let it go if the try is scored but clearly the ref wasn't impressed with the Bristol discipline.

I'm watching Glasgow-Toulon and Warriors seems to be bringing just that bit more energy and go-forward, even in lousy weather. Do you think Brizzle has a chance to come back based on how they have played so far?

Nope

Bloody stupid. Every other game is on an English language channel. By all means have it on a Welsh language channel but either give us an English commentary option or allow tnt sports or via play show it too (like they show the other games)