Glasgow & Edinburgh Discussion Thread 31: The Roadmap for Success Vs The Perpetual Roadworks of Incompetence

[NeilyBroon]

First topic message reminder :

As requested, another thread connected by the M8. Two teams about as comparable as Adam Peaty and Eric the Eel.

Will Glasgow build on their title win next season?

Will Edinburgh even make the top half of the table?

Speculation and more on another volume of the patter papers.

[BigGee]

That looked no arms from Healy

[Welshmushroom]

That looked no arms from Healy

did to me as well. lucky to get away with that

[BigGee]

We'll done Edinburgh who score a cracking try on the death. Vellacott pace and a fabulous support line from Scott.

33-31 Leinster but at least a second BP for Edinburgh

That was as many as Edinburgh got the whole of last season. They'll take something from that match.

[Welshmushroom]

So its going to end up 33-31 to Leinster. Those 2 really soft scores cost them in the end. Could have won this game but their kicking and lineout work was dire tonight.

[RDW]

Thanks for the comments lads - sounds lots of positives but lots of frustration too. Good to hear we showed a lot more grit and spirit.

Will watch this morning.

[RDW]

Urgh, another so near but so far performance. It's probably not an exaggeration to say that if Edinburgh's lineout was better we would have won that - must have lost 5-6 in really important places. Kicking was wayward too.

Edinburgh were in complete control after that try early  in the 2nd half but Leinster just turned the screw, not helped by some weak tackling. It was particularly frustrating that we would work hard and put a lot of effort into our scores then straight away Leinster would hit back again with relative ease. Our strong bench made a difference - maybe some of them should start.

I liked the look of Ross Thomson who looks to have more of an attacking edge than Healy. Worth saying his defence was good too. Muncaster is also a complete beast now - would love to see.him getting a good run this season although he took a bad hit late on not looking happy. Tuipoloto jnr barely touched the ball - Edinburgh still have work to do to get their 13 more involved.

Edinburgh have a brutal start to the season with a trip to SA to come straight away. There's a good chance we'll be quite far off the pace before we get to a more favourable run.

[RDW]

Looks like Boffelii could be out for a while having agitated his back issue again. He's barely played for Edinburgh since signing what must have been a bumper contract 18 months ago.

Good thing we've got plenty depth in the back 3!

[Hazel Sapling]

Did not get to watch too much of the match but saw the first two Leinster tries. Both positions came from bad box kicking from Price.

Some of that may be due to tactics as Price had little protection but considering how much experience he has, it was really poor.

[BigGee]

Well somehow Glasgow managed to lose that game.

Well done to Ulster for staying in the game though. It was a decent hit out for both teams, great defence from both teams and both struggling a bit in attack.

Very exciting game though but first games never tell the story of the season.

[RDW]

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/stuart-hogg-put-in-headlock-by-former-scotland-team-mate-after-instigating-mass-brawl-with-stupid-thomas-ramos-incident

Kinghorn laying down the law!

[EWT Spoons]

If we persist with Healy and Price we are going to struggle.

Price looks like he has lost all interest in being the player he once was and is now a shadow of his former self. I get the feeling he didn’t want to leave Glasgow or if he was to leave, it would have been to a French side to boost his bank balance.  Coming to a mid-table Edinburgh team for the same/less cash is clearly not getting his juices flowing.  Healy on the other hand is just not good.  He was crap last season and he’s not looking much better this season.  He can’t get a backline involved, his kicking from hand when the game is live is very hit and miss, sadly mostly miss.

Until those deficiencies are addressed Edinburgh are going to be mid-table at best.

Thomson and Velacott looked better when they were on the field, but Velacott apparently isn’t trusted to run a game as he’s too much of a maverick and whilst the SRU have realised Healy is not up to much, unfortunately given the limited options we need to include him in some manner.

Also, I was told last season by reputable sources that Boff’s injury was potentially a career ender.  That he managed to come back and be involved in preseason is impressive, but if he’s aggravated it again then I do wonder if his body is telling him to knock this rugby business on the head.  Whilst I don’t think anyone wants to see him retire, for his own sake I hope someone is having that conversation with him.

With all that negativity out the way, that we managed to get a TBP and an LBP against one of the teams who will be challenging for the title this season is no bad thing, if we can continue that against other less impressive teams we might not be as bad this season.  However, our next 3 games are all games I would imagine we will struggle in, so could be mid-October before we get our first win.

[Welshmushroom]

Yeah Price looks done at this level. He shouldnt be anywhere near the 23 the way he is playing the last 18 months.

Healy probably still has his uses for those rainy days where you need a kicking/defensive 10. Thompson would be my first choice at the moment but Healy does offer a different type of play which might not be useful from March onwards but when the weather gets dire will have his part to play no doubt.

[EWT Spoons]

Yeah Price looks done at this level.  He shouldnt be anywhere near the 23 the way he is playing the last 18 months.  

Healy probably still has his uses for those rainy days where you need a kicking/defensive 10.  Thompson would be my first choice at the moment but Healy does offer a different type of play which might not be useful from March onwards but when the weather gets dire will have his part to play no doubt.

I have to disagree about Healy. His kicking game isn’t good when he’s asked to kick during live play. From the tee, or when a penalty has been awarded, he can be very good and that is where he gets this reputation as a kicking 10 from, but if you ask him to kick when there is even the hint of pressure coming his way then he crumbles, and you’d be just as well asking literally anyone else in the team to kick. I wish I was exaggerating but watching him first hand all last season and again at the weekend he’s just not up to it. Taking the Leinster game as an example, he put the ball out on the full, it was close but was still unsuccessful, he then followed it up immediately by kicking the ball beyond Duhan's jumping reach when he's maybe 10-15 feet away, which is impressive given the height of the lad, to put the ball straight out. I appreciate that players can and do put the ball out on the full, it happens, but the frequency of it with him is actually fairly high and then following it up in the next play by just kicking the ball straight out is just mindless and disappointingly that's the norm with him.

I know I seem highly critical of him, but when he signed, he was seen as the great hope at 10 that Edinburgh have needed for years, but the reality is, he’s not that player. He doesn’t thrive as a kicking 10 to get the game played in the opposition half, he’s too slow to be a running 10 and he doesn’t have the passing game to get the backs involved. He has yet to show anything to justify his inclusion in the side.

[Hazel Sapling]

Both games are what could have beens for both sides.

Glasgow will be bitter as there was no way they deserved to lose that game but at the end of the day, it was away after a short pre-season where it was felt the team was rusty and it took a series of misfortunes to cost us the game. Frustrating and hopefully not going to cost us much at the end of the season, but home games against Bennetton and Zebre sandwiching an away date at Cardiff should give us some momentum.

Edinburgh at home against a weakened Leinster...there is no excuse. Difficult tour to SA followed by Stormers at home means the team really needs to find its footing. Everitt is under pressure and has already made some good calls around trusting youth more. He needs to go a bit further with regards to replacing Price and try a 6-2 bench due to the depth Edinburgh have in the forwards. SA may be the tour to make these adjustments.

[bsando]

Good summary Sapling, I agree. The Ulster match was always going to be a tricky one going off the pre season results. Although both Edinburgh and Glasgow lost it feels more glass half full rather than empty. Both teams need to now try and build some momentum

[jimbopip]

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/stuart-hogg-put-in-headlock-by-former-scotland-team-mate-after-instigating-mass-brawl-with-stupid-thomas-ramos-incident

Kinghorn laying down the law!

Mr AP has metamorphosed into Le man sausage Sportif.

[BigGee]

Glasgow Warriors team to face Benetton at Scotstoun, Friday 27 September, kick-off 7.35pm. Tickets are still available at glasgowwarriors.org.

1 Nathan McBeth (43)
2 Gregor Hiddleston (10)
3 Zander Fagerson (150)
4 Max Williamson (20)
5 Richie Gray (116)
6 Euan Ferrie (21)
7 Rory Darge (49)
8 Matt Fagerson (112)

9 Jamie Dobie (69)
10 Adam Hastings (54)
11 Kyle Rowe (17)
12 Tom Jordan (51)
13 Sione Tuipulotu (56)
14 Kyle Steyn (C) (78)
15 Josh McKay (50)

Replacements

16 Johnny Matthews (74)
17 Rory Sutherland (0)
18 Sam Talakai (1)
19 Alex Samuel (16)
20 Scott Cummings (126)
21 Gregor Brown (21)
22 George Horne (119)
23 Duncan Weir (150)

Unavailable for selection: Sebastian Cancelliere (foot), Allan Dell (arm), Jack Dempsey (back), Huw Jones (calf), Stafford McDowall (calf), JP du Preez (knee), Ollie Smith (knee), Sione Vailanu (knee),Henco Venter (thigh), Murphy Walker (neck)

[BigGee]

A little bit of gentle rotation from The General.

Good to see a few more back on the wagon after the off season. Horne, Sutherland and Cummings off the bench and Hastings gets his first start. Good to see Tom Johnson starting at 12, which many feel may well be his best position going forward and especially with impending SQ status coming up.

Very good to see Matt Fagerson straight back in, he looked like he took a bad one last weekend and I was expecting him to be out for a while.

There is also an A team game this friday night, it will be interesting to see the teams for that as well.

[jimbopip]

A little bit of gentle rotation from The General The recent Squidge Rugby video on Glasgow was very, very insightful on the General's selection strategy. It is light years away from Cowboy Dave's, "Here's my best 23 and anyone else is in the team on sufferance." The General only used 46 players all season but maintained a consistency of performance which was almost unbelievable. Glasgow scored at least 2 tries in every game last season; this is unheard of, not just at Scotstoun or in the URC but in all the European leagues.
House Elf-Haircut should be an interesting watch.
Haircut-TJ should be "interesting": will Haircut defend at 13 with the other two shuffling in one?
Wee Shona created havoc last season calling attacking moves off the cuff from 12, with two 10's inside him gawd knows what he'll do against Benetton. Squidge called Glasgow's ability to make it up as they went along "next level improv free form jazz". Cool man.
I think Benetton should make the play offs again; outside Glasgow they are the side I have a soft spot for. (See Shaun? That's how it's done). But Glasgow by 19. Or Benetton by 2.

[jimbopip]

Benetton line up

15 Matt Gallagher *
14 Louis Lynagh (1)
13 Malakai Fekitoa (16)
12 Marco Zanon (82)
11 Onisi Ratave (28)
10 Jacob Umaga (40)
9 Andy Uren (25)
8 Sebastian Negri (86)
7 Manuel Zuliani ( 54)
6 Alessandro Izekor (38)
5 Eli Snyman (47) (C)
4 Scott Scrafton (14)
3 Simone Ferrari (108)
2 Siua Maile (20)
1 Mirco Spagnolo (20)

Glasgow will do well to treat them with respect.

[BigGee]

Yes, it certainly looks like a decent line up from Benetton.

Not an easy game but you would expect Glasgow to win.

[BigGee]

Comfortable win by the Warriors over a very miss firing Benetton who struggled to keep a full team on the pitch.

That is our season up and running at any rate.

[bsando]

Solid performance from Glasgow. Ewan Ferrie looks powerful in the back row. Given the rise of Christie the back row options for Scotland are shaping up nicely. 

Poor Darge missing out on a brace by 3/8 of an inch. Not sure he needed to even do that step, he probably could have made the line by going route one.

[BigGee]

Glasgow left a lot of points out there for sure, but they played better and got the 5pts, ably assisted by Benetton's death wish.

They will certainly need to improve discipline and learn to win away from home if they are to continue to progress.

[bsando]

Another loss for Edinburgh and the last Bulls try from a quick lineout was a shocker. Edinburgh totally switched off. They’ve really got to get these basics better. That one cost them points from the match.

[BigGee]

Goodness, I should not be surprised but watching Edinburgh is so frustrating.

That was a seriously miss firing performance from the Bulls but Edinburgh did not really look like scoring the whole game, they are just so one dimensional in attack.

The jury is still out on this new attack coach!

[RDW]

I was about to come on to say a LBP away to the Bulls shouldn't be sniffed at but sounds like we could have had more if we put in a better performance!

[Hazel Sapling]

Not seen Edinburgh game. Just sounds like more disappointment.

Glasgow game has plenty of opportunities to get more points but the fundamentals looked good and getting five points against a talented, albeit misfiring, Benetton side is good.

I did think Jordan looked underpowered for what we want from our 12 getting battered back on a few occasions. With Hastings maybe needing a week out, he should move back to 10 for Cardiff. My prediction is beyond the three injuries is Cummings in for R Gray and then a proper rotation for Zebre (maybe we see Simpson, J Mann, Schnickerling come in)

[BigGee]

Zebre beat Munster yesterday, clearly much improved this season.

I am not sure we will be rotating quite so much as previously for this game!

[Hazel Sapling]

Someone did a nice image showing Zebre's home performances in September/October against the Irish provinces on Reddit

- Zebre 29 - 33 Leinster in 2022
- Zebre 36 - 40 Ulster in 2023
- Zebre 42 - 33 Munster in 2024

Zebre are improving but away in Glasgow should be a step too far. Would still look to rotate more then than against Cardiff away

[bsando]

Bordeaux, Toulouse and Toulon make up the top 3 sides in the Top 14. Great to see Gray, Kinghorn and White making a difference for their respective clubs in France.

[Hazel Sapling]

Apparently Sione and Mosese Tuipultotu are trying to convince their youngest brother Ottavio to make the move from Australia. Australia u20s and Waratahs hooker with an injury history

[George Carlin]

As mentioned by young James, this is well worth watching to understand what Franco has done.

[bsando]

Seems like king Boff will be out for a long time again! Everitt told Tom English on the bbc Scotland rugby pod he’s had a reoccurrence of his old injury, although in a different spot. Sad news for him, he must be very frustrated with that. It does leave Edinburgh in a bit of a pickle at fullback with only Paterson and then Goosen swapping from wing to cover.

[Welshmushroom]

Franco was a inspired signing for Glasgow. He really has turned that side around. Will be interesting to see how they go in Europe this year.

[RDW]

Seems like king Boff will be out for a long time again! Everitt told Tom English on the bbc Scotland rugby pod he’s had a reoccurrence of his old injury, although in a different spot. Sad news for him, he must be very frustrated with that. It does leave Edinburgh in a bit of a pickle at fullback with only Paterson and then Goosen swapping from wing to cover.

Ach that's a shame. Sounds like it could be a career ending injury given how long it took last time.

[jimbopip]

Looking at the Glasgow line up from last week I don't expect too many changes for the Cardiff trip.

Ragnar needs a rest. So possibly Nathan McBeth and Talakai at LH.
Haircut and Hornito had head knocks so may well be rested. House Elf to start with Afshar to bench.
Seaman was in a moonboot at the end so may be rested.
Dempsey has been on the FB pics for the team announcement so he should be back in.

I think it'll be very close to last week's team. The big call will be Meatball or TJ starting at 10.

[bsando]

Cordero Starting on the wing I see. If he’s anywhere close to as good as his brother that’ll be a big bonus for Glasgow.

[BigGee]

lasgow Warriors team to face Cardiff at Cardiff Arms Park, Friday 4 October, kick-off 7.35pm. You can watch the match live on Premier Sports or follow all the action on our Live Match Centre at glasgowwarriors.org.

1 Rory Sutherland (1)
2 Johnny Matthews (75)
3 Sam Talakai (2)
4 Alex Samuel (17)
5 Scott Cummings (127)
6 Gregor Brown (22)
7 Matt Fagerson (113)
8 Jack Dempsey (50)

9 Jamie Dobie (70)
10 Tom Jordan (52)
11 Facundo Cordero (4)
12 Sione Tuipulotu (C) (57)
13 Huw Jones (71)
14 Kyle Rowe (18)
15 Josh McKay (51)

Replacements

16 Gregor Hiddleston (11)
17 Jamie Bhatti (107)
18 Patrick Schickerling (0)
19 Richie Gray (117)
20 Max Williamson (21)
21 Euan Ferrie (22)
22 Ben Afshar (8)
23 Duncan Weir (151)

Unavailable for selection: Sebastian Cancelliere (foot), Rory Darge (head), Allan Dell (arm), Adam Hastings (head), George Horne (head), Stafford McDowall (calf), JP du Preez (knee), Ollie Smith (knee), Kyle Steyn (ankle), Sione Vailanu (knee), Murphy Walker (neck)

[BigGee]

As expected, the walking wounded from last weekend all sit this one out.

Shuggy and Dempsey make their seasons debuts though and a proper debut for Schickerling from the TH spot on the bench, it will be good to see how he gets on.

Despite the injuries, a pretty strong team for the Warriors, who will be looking for the points from this game.

[jimbopip]

Front row
Wombat and Glasgow's Ian Rush have 182 Glasgow appearances between them. The other six have 14 appearances between them. The General certainly has no qualms about giving people a chance to show they're ready.
Second row

Cummings and Williamson should both be in the Scotland AI squad, When Gray and Samuels come on the intensity levels won't drop by much. Misread the teamsheet...both starting locks from last week are on the bench and it's Cummings-Samuels starting. Fecc me but Glasgow are strong in the big lumps department.

Back row
On Friday 6,7 &8 all scored a try. Only Fagerson starts this week. We are lacking a poacher at 7, but it's three very mobile, very aggressive laddies there.

Half backs House Elf should be in the Scotland squad: this is the sort of match where he needs to show he can be a first choice 9. Haircut's injury means TJ slots back at 10, but that isn't the worst thing that could happen.

Centres
The Shug'n'Shona show once again I wonder if Toonie "suggested" that Shug needed to get some game time if he wants to start against the Boks?

Back Three
No Seaman. Mullet and McKay have looked very good so far and Cordero is obviously rated by The General. Crazy to think that we are missing Seaman-Smith-Seba and still putting out a very, very good back three. If Cordero is as good as The General seems to think.

Cardiff can go top of the league if they win...when did we last hear that? They'll certainly be up for it, but I think it's an away win.

[Hazel Sapling]

It is such a strong 23 whilst missing our star TH, starting halfbacks and the captain. The depth Franco has built is ridiculous and it is all about giving youth a shot. Did not even think about how Samuels, Williamson, Brown, Ferrie and Afshar are all 23 and under.

We have had so many opportunities missed early in the season against two good, lower tier playoff sides so hoping we see a bit more of a clinical edge in this game. The front five should be able to get on top and our bench pack on paper should give us 80 minutes of front foot ball. Matthews should at a minimum have one, if not two.

[BigGee]

A functioning line out this week would certainly help matters!

[BigGee]

Ritchie Gray to leave Glasgow in November to persue a playing opportunity abroad.

A bit of a surprise but maybe not with the amount of promising young second rows at Glasgow just now.

Good of the club to allow RG to head off and top up his pension, maybe in Japan?

You would imagine it will be the end of his Scotland career as well.

[jimbopip]

On the one hand good for him, and his family, and we can only wish him well.
On the other...will we see him start for Glasgow again? Will he feature in the AI,s?
One of the best locks ever to play for Scotland. We were lucky to have had him.

[Hazel Sapling]

It will be a big loss as a key component of our set-piece. Him and his brother would arguably be the starters in the Six Nations but assume this is his international retirement.

Based on the timing, it is either Japan or the USA.

Cummings, Samuel, Williamson and JP Du Preez (assume timing of his departure is when he will be back) is a good rotation. Brown and Ferrie are emergency cover against the weaker teams if needed. I would hope that means that one of the academy locks is considered ready to step up or that Ewan Johnson is coming over at the end of the season (Oyannax have started the season in D2 off the pace).

[bsando]

That’s a shame to see gray potentially ending his Scotland career if hedoes end up heading to Japan. But fair play to him, he was a massive part of glasgow winning the urc last season.

 He’ll be sorely missed for Scotland. His ability to secure ball in the lineout and disrupt opposition lineouts has helped Scotland numerous times over recent seasons. 

With Jonny Gray in good form for Bordeaux I was expected them both to line up together for Scotland this autumn. You never know, perhaps it will happen? That would be a great way for him to end his international career. Packing down with his brother vs the Bokke.

[jimbopip]

As I'll be at Murrayfield for the Boks match I sincerely hope it's Gray x2 in the boiler room.

[BigGee]

We'll was watching that game on delay, so no comments in real time.

Very entertaining stuff, Cardiff never say die, but really need to do a bit of tackling practice!

Glasgow were pretty clinical, took their chances without ever really showing their full repotoire

5 pts down in Cardiff not to be sniffed at though, the Welshmen will give most sides a good game this season!

[BigGee]

Some decent cameos off the Glasgow bench as well.

Schickerling looked like he will be a very solid squad player and Ben Afshar certainly did not let the pace drop when he came on.

RG also showed us what we will be missing!

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