Glasgow & Edinburgh Discussion Thread 31: The Roadmap for Success Vs The Perpetual Roadworks of Incompetence

[NeilyBroon]

First topic message reminder :

As requested, another thread connected by the M8. Two teams about as comparable as Adam Peaty and Eric the Eel.

Will Glasgow build on their title win next season?

Will Edinburgh even make the top half of the table?

Speculation and more on another volume of the patter papers.

[jimbopip]

Wee Dunky making a break and putting Jordan in for a try...show and go, step, outside break, draw the full back, scoring pass!!! All at walking pace.
I laughed for 10 minutes.

[bsando]

Some decent cameos off the Glasgow bench as well.

Schickerling looked like he will be a very solid squad player and Ben Afshar certainly did not let the pace drop when he came on.

RG also showed us what we will be missing!

I’m more optimistic about Ashfar than Dobie looking ahead. Seems like he has a lot of potential. Dobie is getting a good run of games to show what he can do. I caught the  highlights and it seemed like he had one howler but was otherwise quite good.

Some of those missed tackles from Cardiff will make painful watching on Monday for the blues. But credit to Glasgow, they are so good at stretching and wearing down defences.

[RDW]

Deary me the Cardiff defence was dreadful. I suspect their defence coach will be making sure their training week next week is not a pleasant one.

Some nice displays from Glasgow, Dobie in particular is looking strong and sharp at 9. His time on the wing doing him some good.

[BigGee]

I thought Dobie and Ashfar both played well. They both have a quicker, more accurate pass than George Horne, though maybe not kicking as well as him yet.

There is going to be some competition for the SH jersey at Glasgow going forward.

[jimbopip]

Morning peeps ,
well, I must have been watching through the wrong end of the telescope. I thought that was a pretty awful game of rugby.
Credit to Cardiff they came out at the start of the match and threw everything they had at Glasgow. However, in reality all that meant was that after the first quarter, in which Cardiff had almost all the possession and territory, the score was 14-14 with Glasgow scoring very easily. At that point the game was up. Glasgow knew that if they kept to their systems and didn't do anything too Edinburghly then they would win; Cardiff were hoping that if they kept throwing the kitchen sink at Glasgow them maybe, just maybe, they might get something out of it.
I know I'm biased but, for me, the result was never in doubt. Cardiff are going in the right direction, but Munster, Ulster and Benetton should all be above them at the end of the season. Add Glasgow, Bulls and Leinster and the playoffs look out of reach.
Also, a special mention to the referee interpreting the laws of rugby through the medium of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard and Spock made the game messier than Stuart Hogg's social calendar.
Still, lots of tries and 5 points away from home so mustn't grumble

[jimbopip]

Glasgpw statistics for last night;

30 defenders beaten
16 clean breaks
146 tackles made.

I would imagine Wee Shona and the House Elf beat about 20 defenders between them, and the Meatball will insist he beat 5 putting Jordan in at the end.
146 tackles is less than half the number they made against Ulster.
Like I said...in some ways a pretty awful game of rugby.

[RDW]

Edinburgh getting absolutely gubbed

[demosthenes]

Have Edinbugh actually taken the field yet? This sounds like unopposed training!

[RDW]

48-0 HT. That's got to be one of the worst first half performances in Scottish pro club rugby history.

[TJ]

I hate being an Edinburgh fan. Fortunately I cannot watch this match.

[jimbopip]

I tried watching this. I really tried. The Luvvies are woeful.

[RDW]

That team has a huge amount of Test caps and a Test Lion in it - it an absolute embarrassment

[BigGee]

Is this going to cost Everett his job?

[TJ]

Is this going to cost Everett his job?

I hope not but it might mean a few players lose theirs. You cannot really blame a coach for this surely?

[RDW]

Is this going to cost Everett his job?

I hope not but it might mean a few players lose theirs.  You cannot really blame a coach for this surely?

That team is full of class and experience. How can they be so good for Scotland yet so dreadful for Edinburgh?

2 return tries from Edinburgh - if we can salvage a try BP it won't be a complete disaster

[TJ]

Is this going to cost Everett his job?

I hope not but it might mean a few players lose theirs.  You cannot really blame a coach for this surely?

That team is full of class and experience. How can they be so good for Scotland yet so dreadful for Edinburgh?

good point

[bsando]

Is this going to cost Everett his job?

I hope not but it might mean a few players lose theirs.  You cannot really blame a coach for this surely?

That team is full of class and experience. How can they be so good for Scotland yet so dreadful for Edinburgh?

good point

Edinburgh are such a mystery. What are they doing in training to lose that badly??

[NeilyBroon]

What do you do with a problem like Edinburgh... Something is really off with their culture. It's bizarre how ingrained the rot is into every team. Its like the anti ethos of Glasgow. I'm not convinced Everett is that awful a coach, considering Edinburgh have been through so many coaching changes to still be utterly guff. People just clearly aren't happy at Edinburgh. Is there much player pay disparity between the two pro teams? I'd imagine a lot of the Edinburgh boys are still on a decent packet!

[Hazel Sapling]

It can't entirely be laid squarely on Everitt as it has happened with too many coaches. There just appears to be a complete lack of accountability within the playing squad. There is a real question of whether Edinburgh need to have a proper clear out and accept being weaker in the short term to reset around a mentally tougher mindset. One consistent theme has been a lack of hunger in the senior playing squad and a belief that, if they are dropped, they will be back in quickly.

The reaction to this has to be swift and brutal. At least 10 players should be dropped if not the entire starting 15 at risk. Bring in a couple of academy players if needed to fill the bench. The young players need to be given an opportunity surrounded by senior players who know they have to play well to get their next contract. What would that side potentially look like?

Venter - Harrison - Rae (Jones - Morris - Sebastian or Williams)
Hodgson - Carmichael (Sykes)
Crosbie - Muncaster - Boyle (Dodd - McConnell)

McAlpine - Thompson (Vellacott - C Scott)
Lang - Tuipulotu
McCann - Patterson - Graham

Looks like it might lack talent but that sides has 10 Scotland caps starting and at least two more that are knocking on the door (Venter, Muncaster). Struggling to figure out a way to drop both Sykes and Gilchrist fully due to injuries. Price has been so poor and Shiel is not trusted so Vellacott lucks out with a bench spot.

[Welshmushroom]

For me Edinburgh have some very good players in that squad. Maybe 6-7 you can build a good team around. The real issue is pretty much everyone else there. For me they probably need to have a fairly big clear out but without going with a number of overseas players there isnt a massive player pool outside of Scotland to sign up.

Maybe if they go down the project overseas pathway but your basically looking to qualify after 5 years which means if Scotland really are going to progress they would have to take a punt on a bunch of 22-24 year olds which im not sure would help them in the URC over a couple of seasons.

Not entirely sure how that nightmare can be fixed.

On the plus side there is at least 1 scottish side kicking butt and taking names.....

[bsando]

Altitude probably played a part in the first half, but that is only one small part of the loss. Some of the tries Lions scored looked inevitable even before they made a break. The Edinburgh defensive line was awful, no continuity and holes everywhere waiting to be exploited. When your defence is scrambling to cover tackles like that it's ugly.

Tom English is going to let rip on the Scottish Rugby Podcast this week. I wonder if Peter Wright will pop in for this one too?

I like the idea of binning players for such an abject performance Sapling but Everitt will now be panicking to retain his job. He needs three wins in a row bring it back to even. Stormers at home, Cardiff followed by Osprey's away. That is doable on paper and I actually think they will pull it back. They've got to show some steel against the Stormers though, for the fans.

Looking ahead the coaches need to get this Edinburgh side playing a lot better if they want to stay in contention. Pressure is mounting.

[TJ]

I think that perhaps there are a lot of complacent players. Problem will be signing others at this stage of the season

[bsando]

Fans have not held back on social media or Scottish rugby news sites. Many seem to be calling for Everett’s head after only three games. 

If Everitt does get sacked before Christmas I think Leon MacDonald would have to be top of the list to takeover, given his interest in coaching Scotland before accepting an AB’s assistant position (which he subsequently left). 

That would be two quality coaches in charge of both pro sides. Wether the SRU budget stretches far enough to hire a coach of his quality is another matter. 

Most expect Toonie to not get his contract renewed or for him to move up into a different position within the SRU. I certainly haven’t forgotten this years 6N result. Having LM and Franco as potential successors to Toonie would bode well heading towards RWC2027.

[NeilyBroon]

Leon Macdonald would be a good capture for Scottish rugby but would he be the right fit for Edinburgh? Look at Dave Rennie for Glasgow. Did well enough but never got that last inch out of the team, was succeeded by Danny Wilson who, despite being terrible, pretty much got the same results.

Whisper it, but I think perhaps cockers was the best fit, despite the dogsh*t end of his tenure... Edinburgh need a coach who'll put a rocket up them, like VC did with Scotland. Mike Blair did well enough to start with his "we're all mates here" approach but then we saw the player complacency again. I just think for whatever reason Edinburgh are a tricky team to coach.

Hazel's point about senior players feeling undroppable is probably bang on the money. Glasgow if you play well you're in the team. Edinburgh if you play well you're in the team if you've got the name, otherwise well done you can go play for the A team against dragons junior xv. I don't know if the coaches have been given quotas for headliner players playing but it sometimes feels that way with Edinburgh.

[jimbopip]

[quote="NeilyBroon"]Leon Macdonald would be a good capture for Scottish rugby but would he be the right fit for Edinburgh? Look at Dave Rennie for Glasgow.  I know I've banged on about this before but I think Cowboy Dave was superb in the very short term and disastrous in the medium to long term. His "Here's my best 23; they'll be picked every week and the rest of the squad are here for injury/rest protocol weekends." got results short term but really damaged the culture of the club. The dreadful results under Danny Wilson would probably have happened whoever took over from the false messiah.


Did well enough but never got that last inch out of the team, was succeeded by Danny Wilson who, despite being terrible, pretty much got the same results.
No, there was a genuine drop off in performance, due to a  San Andreas sized fault line running through the morale/esprit de corp of the playing staff.  This culminated in the thrashing/capitulation away to Leinster.

Whisper it, but I think perhaps cockers was the best fit, despite the dogsh*t end of his tenure... Edinburgh need a coach who'll put a rocket up them, like VC did with Scotland. Mike Blair did well enough to start with his "we're all mates here" approach but then we saw the player complacency again. I just think for whatever reason Edinburgh are a tricky team to coach.

Hazel's point about senior players feeling undroppable is probably bang on the money. Glasgow if you play well you're in the team. Edinburgh if you play well you're in the team if you've got the name, otherwise well done you can go play for the A team against dragons junior xv. I don't know if the coaches have been given quotas for headliner players playing but it sometimes feels that way with Edinburgh.[/quote]

The culture at Embra is wrong, and has been for years. William McIlvanney defined the Glasgow (city, not rugby club)by telling the story of Jack Dempsey's visit to the city. world heavyweight boxing champion not URC champion). He requested fruit for his hotel room and the market trader from the fruit market rather than deliver to the kitchen seized the opportunity to meet his hero and delivered the fruit to the room. There then followed the slightly funny/slightly embarrassing scene where the wee Glasgow chap attempts to get in the good books by,
"Here's your fruit, champ where do you want it?"
"Anywher."
"On the table, champ?"
"Anywhere."
"i can put it by the window."
"Anywhere."
And so on until the world heavyweight champions snaps at the five foot nothing Glaswegian to "just put the goddamn basket on the goddamn floor." At which the wee man reverts to his true Glaswegian self and explains that he doesn't give a fecc who Dempsey is he doesn't talk to anyone like that. So let's have the jackets off and we'll sort this out here and now.  Remember the city's motto is Nemo me lacessit impune. Which does , often, define how the locals feel about their relationship to the outside world. What is Embra's ;"You'll have had your tea?". Or "We've got a castle and the National stadium so we must be great at rugby." ?  

[bsando]

I think Edinburgh under Everitt have been rotating the squad much like Glasgow. Currie was a standout last season, Paterson too. With kinghorn away, Boff injured, Paterson injured, it’s been left to the goose to field at full back, not ideal for him or the team but he’s doing what he can. 

Glasgow have a strong club culture and identity. Edinburgh lack the same. What is the club moto? 

It’s a quick turn around before the Stormers arrive at the Hive, sorting out the defence must be top priority. Fans will want to see a response. These are the moments that players should be embracing, coming back and proving the naysayers wrong. Five points at home against Stormers would be a very good result. Follow that up with a win over Cardiff and the season is back on track.

These next three fixtures are going to be very interesting. Will Edinburgh show some mettle? Or will they simply dish out more dross?

[jimbopip]

p.s. Just in case anyone thinks I'm being unduly cruel

Pick a Scotland team for next weekend (against anyone) not on reputation but on form. How many Luvvies get in?

[RDW]

Btw what's going on with the South African crowds? It was an empty stadium except the shaded bit which was lucky to have 1000 people in it.

Do South African fans only care if it's Springboks in the team?

Not a great look for the league, especially given how well their team did!

[jimbopip]

Avoidance strategy? Much?

[RDW]

Avoidance strategy? Much?

?

You've seen my previous posts bemoaning how rubbish Edinburgh were right?

[BigGee]

They seem to get decent crowds for derby games in SA and cup finals but struggle a lot on the more mundane fixtures for sure.

It does not help that they are playing in big stadia generally though. They can have a good few thousand in and it still looks empty, just like Murray field use to.

I see the Glasgow leg of the 1892 cup is going to be played at Hampden this year in the hope of stimulating a bigger crowd in the East as well.

It might also be a good trail run for if we need to move out of Scotstoun for the Commie Games as well.

[bsando]

p.s. Just in case anyone thinks I'm being unduly cruel

Pick a Scotland team for next weekend (against anyone) not on reputation but on form. How many Luvvies get in?

For Fiji

Schoe (cmon, he's better than anyone else at Glasgow), Matthews, Fagerson
Gray, Gray
Christie, Darge,
Dempsey
Warr, Russell
Huwipulotu
VDM (ditto Schoe), Steyn
Kinghorn

8x Glasgow
5x Exile
2x Edinburgh

[BigGee]

Is the Fiji game out of window?

If so bring in Horne/Dobie for Warr

Hastings for Russell

Cummings for Gray J

Fagerson for Christie

Rowe for Kinghorn

That takes Glasgow up to 13 and in truth even Schoemsn and DVD are not showing much in the way of form at the moment!

[bsando]

Wow that pesky three week window is further deflating what little aura of a good team Edinburgh have left.

Jordan would probably be a great pick for Fiji given his physicality. Hastings has done well against Fiji in the past and I expect the Fijians will be rusty first up. They were a joy to watch at the world cup, I hope they can keep progressing.

[RDW]

One thing that annoyed me most is the lack of effort some of the players were putting in when the Lions were breaking away. Bradbury in particular was lightly jogging back for most of them not looking interested. Rule 1 when you're getting pumped is you've still got to chase everything and at least show effort.

Muncaster is looking like he's ready to make the next step - get him a run of starts! He's an absolute unit and has the full disregard for his wellbeing you need from a mental backrower.

[EWT Spoons]

Something is rotten at Edinburgh.

Successive coaches have struggled to get a tune out of a squad full of supposed international standard players.

Cockers managed it (to an extent), until he didn’t, Blair got a one season bounce before we reverted to the norm.  Everett didn’t have a great season last season and this one so far is worse.  There seems to be a culture at Edinburgh where being mediocre (or just crap) is fine.  I don’t know where the problem stems from, but it feels like there needs to be a clear out from top to bottom at the club.  It won’t happen though, given the SRU are going through their own management changes and to embark on another one for Edinburgh would be time consuming and costly.

Everett also should be shown the door, I realise that successive coaches have tried and failed, but he just doesn’t inspire confidence, and his selections are nonsensical.  Price has been perceived with well beyond any rationale level of game time.  He finally gets dropped and we pair our most attacking 9 with the talent vacuum that is Healy.

Once the management and coaches have been addressed, there needs to be a review of the snr players.  Some of the players at the club have been there through the thin and thinner times, they should be leaders and driving the team on to reach performances we know they are capable of, regardless of who the head coach (or whatever title Everett has now) is, but it’s not happening.  I’m clearly not in the dressing room, but they don’t seem to be setting the required standards.

[RDW]

Something is rotten at Edinburgh.

Successive coaches have struggled to get a tune out of a squad full of supposed international standard players.

Cockers managed it (to an extent), until he didn’t, Blair got a one season bounce before we reverted to the norm.  Everett didn’t have a great season last season and this one so far is worse.  There seems to be a culture at Edinburgh where being mediocre (or just crap) is fine.  I don’t know where the problem stems from, but it feels like there needs to be a clear out from top to bottom at the club.  It won’t happen though, given the SRU are going through their own management changes and to embark on another one for Edinburgh would be time consuming and costly.

Everett also should be shown the door, I realise that successive coaches have tried and failed, but he just doesn’t inspire confidence, and his selections are nonsensical.  Price has been perceived with well beyond any rationale level of game time.  He finally gets dropped and we pair our most attacking 9 with the talent vacuum that is Healy.

Once the management and coaches have been addressed, there needs to be a review of the snr players.  Some of the players at the club have been there through the thin and thinner times, they should be leaders and driving the team on to reach performances we know they are capable of, regardless of who the head coach (or whatever title Everett has now) is, but it’s not happening.  I’m clearly not in the dressing room, but they don’t seem to be setting the required standards.

What's the chat from your inside man?

[jimbopip]

Synchronicity is everything.
Bigson has a newish job and regularly travels up to Glasgow and Embra. Last night he arrived at Waverley and ascended the stairs to Princes Street. Whereupon he noticed two locals knocking lumps out of each other. As one of them clearly had the upper hand Bigson paused and considered intervening. Then he realised that the bloke who was well on top was actually a woman.
It was nice of Mrs Gilchrist to meet Grant off the train wasn't it?

[RDW]

Listening to the Scottish rugby podcast (a good listen for those who've not tried it) with grumpy uncle Tom understandably tearing into the Edinburgh performance.

Of note was another interview with Sean Everit who was sticking to the same tone - focussing on the positives of the 2nd half as opposed to publicly tearing the team new one. "They showed a lot of character to come back" - they should never have got in that situation in the first place! Also refusing to say that he'll make wholesale changes on the basis that the players showed in the second half that they could learn their lesson. He was claiming a lot of the tries against were from not following the plan and when they followed the plan in the second half it was much better...

Everitt seems a good rugby guy but IMO this was the time to give the public shoeing.

[RDW]

Worth saying he did specifically note bad kicking as the major flaw with that first half (which other than tackling is true). Got to say I'm moving into the Healy is rubbish camp - if he's meant to be there for his kicking and controlling abilities, and he doesn't do that, then there's really not much point. Give Thomson a run of starts!

[BigGee]

Alex Craig coming to Glasgow imminently as replacement for RG. Presumably we are buying out his contact from Scarlets.

He will be on less than we are paying for Big Ritchie you would imagine, so it seems like a decent bit of business and it will do his Scotland chances no harm at all.

[BigGee]

Glasgow Warriors team to face Zebre Parma at Scotstoun, Friday 11 October, kick-off 7.35pm. Tickets are still available at glasgowwarriors.org.

1 Jamie Bhatti (108)
2 Johnny Matthews (76)
3 Zander Fagerson (151)
4 Gregor Brown (23)
5 Scott Cummings (128)
6 Euan Ferrie (23)
7 Rory Darge (50)
8 Jack Dempsey (51)

9 George Horne (120)
10 Adam Hastings (55)
11 Facundo Cordero (5)
12 Stafford McDowall (C) (79)
13 Huw Jones (72)
14 Jamie Dobie (71)
15 Kyle Rowe (19)

Replacements

16 Grant Stewart (50)
17 Nathan McBeth (44)
18 Patrick Schickerling (1)
19 Alex Samuel (18)
20 Max Williamson (22)
21 Henco Venter (22)
22 Ben Afshar (9)
23 Tom Jordan (53)

Unavailable for selection: Sebastian Cancelliere (foot), Gregor Hiddleston (quad), JP du Preez (knee), Ollie Smith (knee), Kyle Steyn (foot), Sione Vailanu (knee), Murphy Walker (neck).

[BigGee]

More rotation from the General, but still a strong looking side, which you would imagine will have to much for Zebre at home.

Good to see another start for Hastings and lets hope he can push on from here.

[jimbopip]

That's a strong looking Warrior's side.
Gregor Brown continues his push to be the new Ginger Tackle Monster taking the 6/4 role.
The Prodigal son gets a chance at 2 (or 16). How a club can lose a player like George Turner and still have a 50 cap replacement desperate to get in the team is something to ponder.
How a club can put out Wombat, Ragnar, Caz's Mate and Schikerling as props while leaving out Talakai, Dell, Sutherland and Walker  is, mad Ted just mad.
How a club can start a seasoned international 10 (Haircut) and have a large section of their fans wishing it was the other guy (TJ in this case) is one for the management at Embra to ponder .

How different, how very different, from the anguished response from The Luvvies' fans every time their latest Xv is announced.

Oh and Alex Craig will be joining in the second row.

[Hazel Sapling]

Happy for Alex Craig to come onboard. Gregor Brown and Ferrie are both slightly undersized for lock. We can get away with it against the smaller packs but against the Saffas or the main Irish provinces...it would be a long day in the scrum. JP Du Preez should be back before too long as well so decent five man rotation (Cummings, Williamson, Samuel, JP Du Preez, Craig)

Bit concerning that Grant Stewart is ahead of Angus Fraser on the hooking charts. Happy for Stewart to have pushed his way back in contention but Fraser really needs to step up.

The back three feel a bit underpowered without Steyn or Smith playing and I do get concerned that we lack power then I remember we have big physical centres to act as the bludgeon. Not sure I am enjoying Dobie on the wing. I get versatility but it says a lot that our juniors are not trusted to fill a wing spot at home against Zebre over a scrum half.

[bsando]

Team to reboot the season. Healy sent to play with Sebastian and Paterson in Bath with Edinburgh A’s


Edinburgh team v Stormers:
15. Wes Goosen
14. Darcy Graham
13. Mosese Tuipulotu
12. Matt Scott
11. Duhan van der Merwe
10. Ross Thompson
9. Ali Price
1. Pierre Schoeman
2. Patrick Harrison
3. Paul Hill
4. Jamie Hodgson
5. Grant Gilchrist (captain)
6. Jamie Ritchie
7. Ben Muncaster
8. Magnus Bradbury
REPLACEMENTS:
16. Harri Morris
17. Boan Venter
18. D’arcy Rae
19. Marshall Sykes
20. Luke Crosbie
21. Ben Vellacott
22. Cammy Scott
23. Matt Currie

[TJ]

I have never rated Healy and hopefully thats the last we see of him as a starter. the only reason he is in Scotland is that he took the hump with Ireland and toonie took the hump with Russell

Thompson needs to be made our first choice starter and given a good run of games IMO - he has a lot of talent but has struggled with getting consistent starts so has not developed as he should - this can be an issue with Scottish players in key positions. Lets hope Price plays as we know he can not as he has been doing in recent times

I am sad to see Gilcrest there particularly as captain - he is one who has just been too comfortable at Edinburgh and whos reputation is bigger than his skillset by far, He would be on my list for the chop. I would rather lose with youngsters trying hard than with old hands who cannot be bothered!

[BigGee]

Duhan off to France next season?

He does not seem all that bothered about playing for Edinburgh, so they probably should not be fighting all that hard to keep him!

[TJ]

When did Duhan last get a pass? 2 seasons ago?

[Welshmushroom]

Given he is 29 i would probably let him go now......hes probably on a massive wedge as well.....He's probably only going to make the next WC for Scotland so they will need to find a replacement wing at some point. Plus I'm guessing he probably wants a bigger contract this time round and at club level im not sure he is worth it.

[Sponsored content]