Irish Provincial teams for next year

First topic message reminder :

Genuinely interested on how Leinster and Munster will shape up over the coming year.
Thinking specifically what the teams will be during the Wc, what they will be after and what they will be at the end.

Below I have listed Ulster with a / being a position I am uncertain over:

15 - Payne, Payne, Payne
11 - Spence, Trimble, Trimble
13 - Cave, Cave/Spence, Cave/Spence
12 - Marshall, Wallace, Wallace/Marshall
11 - Gilroy, Danielli/Gilroy, Gilroy
10 - Humphreys, Humphreys, Humphreys
9 - Marshall, Pienaer, Pienaer
1 - McAllister, Court, McAllister/Court
2 - Kyriacou, Best, Best
3 - Fitzpatrick, Afoa, Afoa
4 - Muller, Muller, Muller
5 - Tuohy, Tuohy/Stevenson, Tuohy/Stevenson
6 - Henry, Ferris, Ferris
7 - Faloon, Faloon/Henry, Faloon/Henry
8 - Wannenberg, Wannenberg, Wannenberg

Assuming predictable WC squad selections i.e. no bolters
As you can see I reckon 2 internationals are Wallace and Court will be fighting to hold on to their provincial spot by the end of the season and that 1 Danielli will not make the team

I'm with Mick here I think O'Malley is our man, he's showed up really well whenever he has played. he was outstanding against Clermont and Ulster in particular this season. How old is he? 23? Small guy but his defence seems to be ok too.

Can't see Borlase making it Stag, looks so ordinary. He's been with munster for 2 seasons hasn't he?
In terms of your signings, losing Buckley and gaining Botha was good business although it cost you an NIQ spot

geoff998rugby wrote:McAllister will be International standard well before he is 25 - I would also say he is a better prospect than Hagan.

True, but McCalister is a loose head and Hagan a tight.

Pete,

Borlase arrived in November last year.

red_stag wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

red_stag wrote:Question: Will this be a breakthrough year for the so far unimpressive Peter Borlase?

Remember how poor Stan Wright was when he first came? Needs to be given more time.

Thats what I'm thinking. I'm backing him to have a good year in the Pro 12

Really? I don't think I've ever seen you write a good word about him.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: Can't see Borlase making it Stag, looks so ordinary. He's been with munster for 2 seasons hasn't he?

Only here 9 months (2 of which have been the off season).

MBTGOG understood.

I jsut have a feeling that Hagan has a bit to prove yet before we can considered him a future Intrernational. The signs are good but lets wait a little.

In terms of breaking into the International stage I just feel that McAllister is future along, in development, even though this was only his 1st year.
Court has his work cut out holding onto the Ulster 1 jersey - at least after Christmas imv.

MBTGOG, I've never been a fan of his and wish we never signed him. However I've been thinking recently that he could step up and giving the matter thought I can see him matching Archer this season.

MBTGOG wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:McAllister will be International standard well before he is 25 - I would also say he is a better prospect than Hagan.

True, but McCalister is a loose head and Hagan a tight.

It's all good for Ireland though.

1 Healy-McCalister
2 Best-Fla<?>-Cronin-Strauss<?>
3 Ross-Hagan

It looks good. I am also really glad Ulster are and more importantly will be contributing more to irish Rugby than in the last 5 years or so. I think it's a great step and they have got some great talent coming up in the next few seasons. I think they are going to be much more competitive this season and in seasons to come. Their status as a good club side is growing all over the world too with such signings.

Apologies thought he was here much longer. I'd prefer Archer to push on, I've heard great things about him about a year ago and he has somewhat slipped under the radar for a bit. He had a few ML games did he not???

PS: This is my 1,000th post

I would not quite write Court off yet - he should be added to that list.

It looks good. I am also really glad Ulster are and more importantly will be contributing more to irish Rugby than in the last 5 years or so. I think it's a great step and they have got some great talent coming up in the next few seasons. I think they are going to be much more competitive this season and in seasons to come.

How much more competitive can they get?

geoff998rugby wrote:I would not quite write Court off yet - he should be added to that list.

Quite possibly, he is 30 and some props start to really excel around 30-35, will be interesting to see if Court can make this transition.

They can go up another level and I think they will. If they could get into the final of the Pro12 or even win it (possibly even win the league format of it) and try and match their HCup involvement of last year again although it will be hard with their group.

Yeah apologies had forgotten about him, he really needs to push on IMO and show what he can do internationally.

That's not being much more competitive. That's matching how they did in the H Cup last year and winning one more game in the Pro12. Consolidating is what they need to do.

Well considering the group they had last year and the group they have this year I think that is a pretty big deal.

Off topic I know but this is about Mitchel, very strange, thinks he may make it back for the RWC....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/5347483/Horror-show-steels-Drew-Mitchell-recovery

MBTGOG wrote:That's not being much more competitive. That's matching how they did in the H Cup last year and winning one more game in the Pro12. Consolidating is what they need to do.

Well there are a number of area's we need to improve on. We need to do much better in the interpro's and win more bonus points. If we want to reach a Magners final then we need to aim for a top 2 league finish.

Likewise in the HEC we need to try and top our group as oppose to get through in runners up position. A home QF would really help us get further. Obviously next season this will be incredibly difficult but this is what we need to aspire to I think.

I'm not sure consolodation is the right word because we'll need to be much better next season just to reach the same position as last year in the magners and HEC.

"I'm not sure consolodation is the right word because we'll need to be much better next season just to reach the same position as last year in the magners and HEC."

Yeah that's what I am getting at

Pete the signs are that we will be stronger than last year. We've retained the SA boys and the arrival of Afoa and Payne will strengthen us considerably I think.

Even more importantly the young guys like Spence, Marshall, Faloon, Jackson, Gilroy, McAllistar etc. are all a year older and more experienced and hopefully will play an even bigger role this year.

I'm pretty confident that we will be a better team next season even though I'm not very optimistic that we can reach the HEC QF again.

If we can get another top 4 magners finish and remain unbeaten at home in the HEC + at least 1 away win then I would see that as a good season.

Beating Leinster and Munster at home would be progress too and generally we need to perform better in the interpro's.

Rodders hows this for an aim.

Undefeated at home.
Win 1 away match in Ireland.
Win 2 away games in Wales
Win all away games in Italy.
Win 1 away game in Scotland.

Thats 17 wins out of 22 Easy. Then throw in bonus points and easy peasy

You've got to remember about Ulster this year is that they will be a marked team. Other sides will want their scalp so I do genuinely think it's about consolidation and I mean keeping up the same level of performance even if that isn't enough to get them through their H Cup group this year.

This is a year of consolidation for Ulster - improve the performances.
Because of our group - that may result is a poorer HC record.

As I have posted elsewhere I have an expectation that in 2012-13 we would be a position to at least be Munsters equal. I still see us as the 3rd Irish province next year.

I also believe that that is good enough to be the 3rd best Pro 12 team. We are in better shape than any Welsh side let alone Scotland and Italy.

Stag I like the cut of your jib

Munsty yes we will be more of a marked team this year but I think we were last season two after the hype around our signings. The reality is that our HEC group is much harder and I'd expect the Welsh teams to be stronger next season in the league.

Therefore to ensure that we are in contention for the Magners play offs I think we'll have to be better than last year and to qualify from our HEC group we'll need to be much better.

It's not just about results too and I think we need to play better rugby than last year. Our set piece let us down at times as did our handling. We relied far too much on individual brilliance from Pienaar or Humphpreys so I'd like to see a bit more clinicalness from the backs. Defensively we need to improve too.

I think our Magners position flattered us a bit last year in that the Ospreys, edinburgh and Cardiff underperformed. I think a top 5 league position is vital to aim for though, ideally top 4.

I think that's the long short of it, they will be a better team but won't do as well in Europe because of the group they have. I expect them to get into the top4 of the pro12 but would like them to do it a bit more comfortably than they did last year.

roddersm wrote:I think our Magners position flattered us a bit last year in that the Ospreys, edinburgh and Cardiff underperformed.

True but nothing I have seen in the close season convinces me any of them will be any better.
In different ways all 3 seem to be a bit of a mess at the moment.

Edinburgh have not replace Robinson and have a seriously underpowered front 5.
Cardiff are broke and seem to have a soft centre with respect to team spirit.
Ospreys are in transition from glacticos to more emphasis on home grown talent

Munsty yes we will be more of a marked team this year but I think we were last season two after the hype around our signings

Yeah but you were a largely unknown quantity then including the young players. Not so this time really.

Me neither Geoff but I don't feel secure in the suggestion that we are the 3rd or 4th best team in the Magners. Last season play off qualification went right down to the wire and the Ospreys and Cardiff didn't perform anywhere near their potential. The Dragons and scarlets look dangerous as well and surely the Scottish sides can't be as poor this season?

We had a bit off luck a few times towards the end of last year and I don't want to see us relying on last minute penalties so much this year.

All in all I think another top 4 finish would be a massive achievement and even a top 5 finish wouldn't be a total disaster, albeit a disappointment.

A big factor for us next season will be how Jared Payne settles. Watching him in the S15 i am really quite excited about his signing. We have running threat from the likes of Gilroy, Humph, Spence, Trimble, D'arcy; we have creative players like Pienaar, Marshall, Wallace but Payne will provide a cool head and a link between attacks. His support play is excellent and he almost always takes the right option. His offloading is good without being anything flashy and if the pass is on you just know he will give it.

I think sometimes Ulster go into 'headless chicken mode' in that after we make the initial break we often dont back it up sufficiently and end up letting a team off. Someone to take the right option would be very welcome in this situation.

I think Ulster could really kick on in the pro12 this year.

Ospreys have lost some good players and are rebuilding to some extent

Cardiff could and should be tough opposition

Munster are still better than Ulster but not by as much after their year last year (no offence is intended I just don't think Munster are as strong as they were a couple of seasons ago and don't see any signings other that Botha that will change this dramatically)

Edinburgh aren't strong enough upfront and their depth is pretty poor

Looking at the fixtures if Ulster can come through the first half of the season in the top 3 then the fixtures in 2012 are a lot kinder. We have 3 out of 4 welsh teams away during the RWC i think? We won 3 out of 4 away games in wales last year. A repeat would be nice

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Munster are still better than Ulster but not by as much after their year last year (no offence is intended I just don't think Munster are as strong as they were a couple of seasons ago and don't see any signings other that Botha that will change this dramatically)

I think Munster are much stronger than Ulster. Maybe not so much on paper or individually but what they have is a winning mentality and experience of grinding out results, winning big trophies and putting teams to the sword ruthlessly.

Player for player are 1st team compares well these days but I think it will take a few seasons to build up that mental toughness and experience to reach the level that Munster and Leinster are at. It will also take time to build up an aura where teams fear us the way they do Munster and Leinster.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think Ulster could really kick on in the pro12 this year.

Ospreys have lost some good players and are rebuilding to some extent

Cardiff could and should be tough opposition

Munster are still better than Ulster but not by as much after their year last year (no offence is intended I just don't think Munster are as strong as they were a couple of seasons ago and don't see any signings other that Botha that will change this dramatically)

Edinburgh aren't strong enough upfront and their depth is pretty poor

Cardiff will probably continue to be chitt I reckon. Ospreys are an unknown quantity, but it will take them a while to get a new direction whatever happens.

Munster could surprise you. Don't forget their League form last year. They are champs after all.

If they get a decent 12 from somewhere. (time is ticking on that one) and Keatley kicks on from his Connacht experience.

Danny Barnes, Ian Nagle and Conor Murray look the bizo. There are a few more bubbling under too. Zebo for example.

Anyway.. If not this season, then it is only a matter of time until Munster come flying back to the top.

"Anyway.. If not this season, then it is only a matter of time until Munster come flying back to the top."

+1

Should Munster buy a NIQ backrow or centre?

red_stag wrote:Should Munster buy a NIQ backrow or centre?

Fly-half

red_stag wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

red_stag wrote:Question: Will this be a breakthrough year for the so far unimpressive Peter Borlase?

Remember how poor Stan Wright was when he first came? Needs to be given more time.

Thats what I'm thinking. I'm backing him to have a good year in the Pro 12

I think SH players in the main come here expecting it to be a walk in the park and then really struggle to adapt to a higher than expected skill level weather etc. Its not just Borlaise, look at JDV, took him a while to get going..... Of course there are exceptions... Rocky, Dougie.

I'll tell ya what tho, Borlaise would want to start showing some glimmer of ability this year........

---------------------------------------------------


Rodders, u cheeky Monkey, I think were ok with ROG and Keatley.......

Backrow they have: Wallace, Leamy, Ronan, Coughlan, Ryan
Centre they have: Mafi, earls, barnes, Murphy, Keatley

I think you have to go backrow, just to generate some quicker ball. That backrow can always be in the midfield off lineouts and general play anyways if necessary.

thats my 2c

I'd nearly be inclined to agree Pete.

As an aside - Tomas O'Leary at 12?

red_stag wrote:Should Munster buy a NIQ backrow or centre?

centre. Plenty of iq back rows about if you are stuck. Feck all 12s

OnASideNote wrote:
Rodders, u cheeky Monkey, I think were ok with ROG and Keatley.......

You are more than "ok" with those two but as I've mentioned else where I think Munsters midfield problems have been as much to do with ROG standing so deep and just shipping the ball along without committing any defenders than the personnel at centre.

Munsters "problems" are two-fold in my opinion. Their tight 5 is not able to dominate and bully the big french and English packs or even Leinsters the way they did and their backs struggle to break down the best defences at times.

I believe the single most effective signing Munster could make would be a more creative fly-half who could take the ball flatter and realise Munsters dangerous outside backs.

roddersm wrote:

OnASideNote wrote:
Rodders, u cheeky Monkey, I think were ok with ROG and Keatley.......

I believe the single most effective signing Munster could make would be a more creative fly-half who could take the ball flatter and realise Munsters dangerous outside backs.

Well, we had him, but we left him go to France

For me, I think a 12 is paramount and then a flanker. But it has to be the right 12 and failing the acquisition of such a player then the experimentation will continue.

So Stag, it wouldn't surprise me at all. TOL started on the wing back in the day, he's a serious defender (even his detractors will admit this - Francois Baby wont forget him anytime soon) and hes got gas.

Why not, I say cos he ain't gonna be No 1 scrum half next year I reckon....

I'd say Benoit Baby remembers him as well

"You are more than "ok" with those two but as I've mentioned else where I think Munsters midfield problems have been as much to do with ROG standing so deep and just shipping the ball along without committing any defenders than the personnel at centre.

Munsters "problems" are two-fold in my opinion. Their tight 5 is not able to dominate and bully the big french and English packs or even Leinsters the way they did and their backs struggle to break down the best defences at times."

I agree with all of this. i also think you need a direct runner who is going to make yards the hard way and not like POC who makes a yard or two, you need a SOB, Nonu, Elsom, Tindall, Roberts who will crash into the line and.....

a) draw in defenders
b) make yards in the tackle
c) get his hands free and look for support
d) get the ball back quickly

also he can't just take it off ROG or your 9 you need to be cleverer about it which is one of the failings of recent munster due to their midfield. You need this kind of player to be coming from deep off the shoulders of the midfield, needs to be coming around the corner of the ruck rather than straight up so all the defenders can see where he is and where he is going.

Needs to be able to generate quick ball because your pack are not, TOL really doesn't help this. Rog then stands too deep so the backs don't penetrate enough cos the defence is set (the ball was slow).

it's a cycle

no good carriers->slow ball->hard for backs to go forward->slow ball->then hard for ball carriers

Need to break that cycle, start going forward, hard, straight, from deep, clever angles and then run the ball but keep going forwards instead of side to side with the backs

you stag!!!

Yes him too, my bad.

Anyone who what Connacht will look like come September?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Anyone who what Connacht will look like come September?

Male, generally aged about 18-35 years old. Mainly caucasian but there are a few other ethnic groups. They wear green and spend most of their time huddled under the posts watching the opposition #10 taking conversions

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Anyone who what Connacht will look like come September?

Male, generally aged about 18-35 years old. Mainly caucasian but there are a few other ethnic groups. They wear green and spend most of their time huddled under the posts watching the opposition #10 taking conversions

Ouch!!! Hahaha!

Anyone have an idea what their team will look like on paper! Engarde Monsieur!

I would imagine at start of season:

Wilkinson, Reynecke, Maguire
Browne, McCarthy
Muldoon, Naoupu, O'Connor
Murphy, Nikora
Matthews, Griffin
Vainikolo, Duffy, McCrea

Flavin, Ahyou, Swift, Anderson, O'Donoghue, O'Connor, O'Halloran

That's not really an improvement on last year is it???

Its squad depth that they have. But not huge improvement on the 1st XV. Most of their bench are at the same level as their starting team - thats going to be great for them.