Irish Provincial teams for next year

First topic message reminder :

Genuinely interested on how Leinster and Munster will shape up over the coming year.
Thinking specifically what the teams will be during the Wc, what they will be after and what they will be at the end.

Below I have listed Ulster with a / being a position I am uncertain over:

15 - Payne, Payne, Payne
11 - Spence, Trimble, Trimble
13 - Cave, Cave/Spence, Cave/Spence
12 - Marshall, Wallace, Wallace/Marshall
11 - Gilroy, Danielli/Gilroy, Gilroy
10 - Humphreys, Humphreys, Humphreys
9 - Marshall, Pienaer, Pienaer
1 - McAllister, Court, McAllister/Court
2 - Kyriacou, Best, Best
3 - Fitzpatrick, Afoa, Afoa
4 - Muller, Muller, Muller
5 - Tuohy, Tuohy/Stevenson, Tuohy/Stevenson
6 - Henry, Ferris, Ferris
7 - Faloon, Faloon/Henry, Faloon/Henry
8 - Wannenberg, Wannenberg, Wannenberg

Assuming predictable WC squad selections i.e. no bolters
As you can see I reckon 2 internationals are Wallace and Court will be fighting to hold on to their provincial spot by the end of the season and that 1 Danielli will not make the team

They really lost some good players this year though and while they made a few signings they lost more than they got

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:They really lost some good players this year though and while they made a few signings they lost more than they got

Isn't that really the way the IRFU have set things up though. Fringe players from the other teams will go to Connaght on 1-2 year deals and as players prove themselves they'll move on to bigger teams. This helps Ireland and the other provinces but it's hard for Connaght to improve in the long term if they keep losing their better players.

I think we have reached a stage where the other teams have actually got young talent of their own on the benches and we may see medium term development.

i think the aims for Ulster are do well in H-cup group (win home games) qualifaction is a bit to much of an ask, but 2nd spot would be great (though I don't think 2nd spot would even get us in the Almin and top 4 finish in the Celtic League.

3 wins out of 4 in Wales last year, will prob not be repeated, but can still get top 4 with out this.

what I'm really looking for as a sign of improvement is a better showing against Munster and Leinster.

A fantastic achievement would be to win the home games and have the away games close, losing bonus points.

what I hope to see in winning one of the home games against these two, and picking up LBP's away (or at least in one) that will show how far we've come and also how far we still have to go.

Part of me wishes there was a bit of selflessness and the other provinces took a bit of a hit each for a big improvement with Connacht. Wasn't that the plan that the other 3 would start sending Connacht more players.

IMO there are a number of players who should be there and it won't help Munster-Ulster or Leisnter but will make Connacht a very competitive rugby team not just a development site.

I think players like these should go there:

Dominic Ryan
Niall Morris
Ian Nagle
Tommy Bowe
Geordan Murphy
Tom Hayes
Johnne Murphy
Neil Best
Roger Wilson
Eoin O'Malley
A Munster Scrumhalf


I think these players or players like these players should spend a bit of time at Connacht (2/3 years) help build the team with the aim being that someone of them would stay longer and a team would be built of quite a high standard and would attract others. Would help build a feel good factor there and increase the number of people at each game

Tommy Bowe going to Connacht?

I realise others will hate this idea as it weakens their team but I think this could be a good way for Connacht to grow more.

Would there be lack of team spirit due to such a mix of players? Possibly.
Too many oldies? Nope Wilson and Best could help the leadership of the team I think.

Why not Dodger?

Why would Johne Murphy go? He's got quite a few high profile games for Munster including Heineken Cup.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Part of me wishes there was a bit of selflessness and the other provinces took a bit of a hit each for a big improvement with Connacht. Wasn't that the plan that the other 3 would start sending Connacht more players.

IMO there are a number of players who should be there and it won't help Munster-Ulster or Leisnter but will make Connacht a very competitive rugby team not just a development site.

I think players like these should go there:

Dominic Ryan
Niall Morris
Ian Nagle
Tommy Bowe
Geordan Murphy
Tom Hayes
Johnne Murphy
Neil Best
Roger Wilson
Eoin O'Malley
A Munster Scrumhalf


I think these players or players like these players should spend a bit of time at Connacht (2/3 years) help build the team with the aim being that someone of them would stay longer and a team would be built of quite a high standard and would attract others. Would help build a feel good factor there and increase the number of people at each game

What ticket price would you set to cover the cost of these extra players?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
I think players like these should go there:

Dominic Ryan
Niall Morris
Ian Nagle
Tommy Bowe
Geordan Murphy
Tom Hayes
Johnne Murphy
Neil Best
Roger Wilson
Eoin O'Malley
A Munster Scrumhalf

You are joking Pete?! Maybe we could send them Paul O'Connell, BOD and Stephen Ferris while we're at it!

Agreed the money isn't there and it spread squads too thin in some positions when internationals come into it.

Like why would O'Malley move. They have 2 good outside centres in Griffin and McCrea. At scrumhalf Paul O'Donoghue has just joined. Musnter are going to lose at least 3 second rows for the World Cup - Nagle is necessary for us.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why not Dodger?

If he comes back to Ireland should he not go to the province that gave him the opportunity, that made him into the player he is today?

It's seems strange to say one of Ulsters best players of the past 10 years should go to another province if he has a chance to go back to Ulster and play in the first team.

Ulster have sent Connacht three players already; we only have 32/33 players in our squad right now. We can't afford to lose anyone else to anywhere.

Why would Tommy bowe go to Connacht? There's a reason why Cromwell said "to hell or to Connacht"

I am doing this for what i think would be best for Ireland. I think it makes more sense for a player like EOM, Nagle, Ryan and Morris to be playing week in week out than training all the time and getting the odd game and the others would be experienced heads.

The players who play oversea's are an obvious choice.

I am fully aware it seems ridiculous!

Pete for me it is vastly over compensating for past neglects.

red_stag wrote:I would imagine at start of season:

Wilkinson, Reynecke, Maguire
Browne, McCarthy
Muldoon, Naoupu, O'Connor
Murphy, Nikora
Matthews, Griffin
Vainikolo, Duffy, McCrea

Flavin, Ahyou, Swift, Anderson, O'Donoghue, O'Connor, O'Halloran

Keith Matthews is injured.

I'm a big fan of JOC, but can't see him covering 7 and the bench, I'm guessing either Ofisa or Grace there.

Is Maguire ready? I don't think so.

I agreed with you up till I saw the likes of Bowe on the list. Johne murphy is need to. It would be good for guys on development contracts to spend a season or tow in Connacht.

No no no - NIALL O'Connor is on the bench covering flyhalf. TJ Anderson covering backrow.

Oh yeah I am not saying they should all go I think maybe 3 should 2 young-ish lads and 1 experienced one.

I was just saying players like these would really help Ireland as a team in the long run

I would have also though the fact that he's one of the best wingers in Europe and in the prime of his career and would be sought after by most teams around might be enough to make it a tad hard to persuade him to do a few seasons in Galway.

Imagine if O'Leary wasn't getting his game behind Stringer and Murray. Doing no good at Munster but he would do a world of good at Connacht and he'd be getting game time to challange for the Irish 9 jersey.

I think it would be about buying into the system. I wish there hadn't been an exodus from Connacht this year as glad as I am about getting Carr, Hagan and Cronin. I was thinking the team is building another few good players or a few more to step up and boom they are an upper middle table side.

Leinster have too many backrows and back 3
Munster have too many scrumhalves

Get them playing, obviously the ones who are good enough and would be valued there but are behind the likes of Nacewa or Murray or heaslip at their respective clubs

But you need at least two/three options in each position Pete. That's the minimum you need.

Modern rugby is all about depth.

Thomas O'leary?!! ....jees I thought you wanted to help Connacht Pete!...

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Part of me wishes there was a bit of selflessness and the other provinces took a bit of a hit each for a big improvement with Connacht. Wasn't that the plan that the other 3 would start sending Connacht more players.

Selflessness, tempered with one eye on the others. Is any province going to be the first to blink? What if Leinster send players, but Ulster and Munster hang on to theirs (or any combination). One province has been duped by the other two. Is it a good idea all of a sudden?

The only way it could happen would be if the IRFU dictated player movements. But again, IRFU men are also Leinster, Ulster and Munster men, so it still can't be trusted.

But selflessness is a tough gig. I really like Connacht, I want to see them play better and hope they don't embarrass us at the Heineken Cup. But I wanted Hagan back. I wanted Carr back. I'm really glad we got Cronin and I'm not happy they have Maguire. Likewise I'm sure there are Munster fans who have come around to the idea that Keatley has talent.

So yeah, I'm happy they have McCrea and Frank Murphy, because they've taken Ulster and Munster men, I don't want them having Leinster men. Sorry, just not happy.

I can be selfless for Irish rugby, just not Leinster rugby.

What would happen IMO is that it would make Connacht a little better and make Munster/Leinster quite a bit worse etc.

Grey I know how you feel. Reddan, Cronin and Ross are all Munster players. They make up 20% of Leinsters starting team. I do still feel attachement to them.

Who's Thomas O'Leary?

Pete another problem is that we only have 3 HEC spots. You can't expect the other teams to let them have their better players and then risk losing out on the HEC. I want to see Connacht succeed but not at the expense of Ulster.

red_stag wrote:No no no - NIALL O'Connor is on the bench covering flyhalf. TJ Anderson covering backrow.

Doh, saw O'Connor and stopped there. Sorry.

Anderson? I can't see him being ahead of either Ofisa or Grace.

has the bouncer Ian Keatly transfered to 606v2, or is he now a Munster fan, and what about ummmmm or was it emmmmmmmm

Ummm,hasn't and won't come over don't know about bouncer.

Totally understand Notch and I agree with you but Leinster could manage without Dominic Ryan or Andrew Conway/David Kearney for a season or two.

Munster could deal without certain players as could Ulster.

I think it should be the IRFU who do it, maybe allow a player to leave each club to go to Connacht.
I suppose yeah if Munster let TOL go, Ulster let Marshall go (for a season) and Leinster let Macken go Leisnter would have swindled them should be done fairly but it is subjective.

I was wondering where the pair of them were....

Can you honestly say that Dom Ryan going to Connacht would hurt Leinster more than benefit Connacht?

roddersm wrote:Pete another problem is that we only have 3 HEC spots. You can't expect the other teams to let them have their better players and then risk losing out on the HEC. I want to see Connacht succeed but not at the expense of Ulster.

I think that's because in Ireland we put a bit too much emphasis on the HC. Look at the likes of Saracens, Wasps, Quins, Toulon... All full of excellent players and they yo-yo between the HC and the Amlin. Irish players (and fans) are allergic to the Amlin, but it doesn't seem to be the be all and end all for English and French based players when it comes to deciding who to play for. But to be honest the Jeff and Top 14 are not treated the same way the P12 is by Irish teams.

(not, lets not start that whole debate again about why, just stating it from a player rotation POV)


If we want to see Connacht succeed, but not at the expense of the other provinces, that starts with bringing players back from overseas, not moving them from the other provinces.

I'm happy that McCrea, Anderson and O'Connor have a new opportunity in Connacht and I hope it works out for them. None of those three were going to get much gametime in Ulster and we have other promising players coming through.

But they are still Ulstermen. And when Connacht play now, I will tune in to support those three players because they are Ulstermen. Same with Tommy Bowe and Roger Wilson.

Just because you leave Ulster doesn't stop you being an Ulsterman. My ambition for all Ulstermen at other clubs/provinces is that they will one day return to Ravenhill as better players.

I find the idea of Bowe playing for another Irish province as strange as the idea of O'Connell or O'Driscoll playing for another Irish province. He's one of the best players Ulster have produced; he's more than good enough to play for us. The suggestion he should go to another province is awful to me. It's no different than if you said Stephen Ferris should play for Scotland or Italy to bring their levels up instead of Ireland; it's just wrong.

Why would we want to see one of our best players at a rival?

Pete - yes.

Ryan may not even start for Connacht. Leinster lose out on a player who gets plenty of ML games. Their internationals need to play more often and there is less chance of competing on 2 fronts.

"If we want to see Connacht succeed, but not at the expense of the other provinces, that starts with bringing players back from overseas, not moving them from the other provinces."

I definitley agree with this, I think Connacht are improving and would like the oversea's players to be playing for an irish province, preferably Connacht because they need the assistance more. I think these experienced oversea's IQ players coupled with some younger academy and squad players should go.

Just going back to the Ryan example- he is behind heaslip, SOB, jennings, McL and Ruddock that is why I would suggest him going.

All 5 being Irish internationals. What happens when 4 of them are on international duty.

But back row is probably Connachts strongest group, though. Muldoon, Naoupu, Ofisa, JOC, Browne and Grace are all pretty good.

Nothing good for Leinster. It is a big blow to take I fully accept that and believe I understand perfectly well how big a blow it is but I still do believe it will help irish rugby in the long run and I care about that more than leinster.

I wonder what Dom Ryan (just keeping up the example) would think of moving to Connacht for a year or 2.

I understand Connacht are ok backrow wise was just using him as an example could equally use Andrew Conway or one of Stringer/TOL/Murray

The likes of Ryan etc. various other Leinster backrowers have been offered chances to move to Ulster in the past where they would have got more gametime but they've turned it down to stay at their home province.

I think thats commendable. When I was a child I liked Ireland, but the big dream would be running out to represent your home province. These guys have grown up dreaming of representing Leinster and they don't want to give up on their dream.

If I were to suggest provincial players to move to Connacht the only ones from Munster I could really justify leaving would be JJ Hanrahan and Denis Fogarty.

That is very admireable in all fairness. Never knew that they'd been offered those contracts either.

What about Williams Stag??

Duncan Williams? I wouldn't be happy if he moved there for several reasons.

We are likely to lose 2 scrumshalves to any international camp. We need 4 scrumhalves if 2 are going to be called up to Ireland twice or three times a year. Also i think that he wouldn't necessarily start when the young Paul O'Donoghue will be trying to improve too.

Conway, hmmmm. Is it a good idea?

Look at Fionn Carr. Excellent few seasons with Connacht. Broke their try scoring record. Scored some great tries. Played almost every game each season. Connacht fans think he's a legend.

Look at McFadden. Used sparingly, basically as cover for when BOD wasn't playing. Only half the number of appearances as Carr in the same length of time.... But internationally capped already. All in the same timeframe.

Would it have been Carr capped and McFadden not if Carr played for Leinster and McFadden moved to Connacht? It's possible.

Now if all you want to do is play, if you crave matchdays and having the ball in your hand, then Connacht is the best choice. But if you want to succeed, Leinster is the correct choice. You'll be better trained, you'll be used to winning, you'll be part of a HC winning squad with great coaches and greater team mates. You'll be trusted by Kidney. You'll fit in at Ireland squad sessions because training with those players is already second nature.

So if Conway wants to achieve the highest levels of the game, he should stay.

Personally, all I'd want to do is play, but that's why I never turned out for Ireland I guess.

Also in an interview with TJ Anderson when he left to go to Connacht, it was clear how devastated he was not to have his Ulster contract renewed. Now I'm sure he will come to represent Connacht with great pride and distinction but it was obvious that losing the chance to play for Ulster meant a lot to him.

Now if he grasps his chance at Connacht, who could blame him for wanting to move back to his home province? That's why I didn't really understand why Connacht fans were so annoyed Keatley, Cronin, Hagan or Carr would want to move. None of those lads came from Connacht originally.

Notch wrote:That's why I didn't really understand why Connacht fans were so annoyed Keatley, Cronin, Hagan or Carr would want to move. None of those lads came from Connacht originally.

I think what hurt was losing them all at the same time. If we lost Sexton, Strauss, Ross and Shaggy all at the same time I'd be in bits.

McFadden getting in ahead of Carr may have been due to HCup experience but yes you have a point.

I just wish all those players Notch has listed hadn't left COnnacht it would have done the team the world of good

I can understand that, but Sexton and Shaggy are both Leinster to their core. The equivalent would be John Muldoon for Connacht. Who has also rejected contract offers to stay at his home province.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Leinster have too many backrows and back 3

You wot mate? Do Wot? Leave it aht! Knock it on the 'ead!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Just going back to the Ryan example- he is behind heaslip, SOB, jennings, McL and Ruddock that is why I would suggest him going.

4 of those will probably be at the WC. Under Joe Schmidt Ryan seemed to be AHEAD of Ruddock, not behind.

We are looking at bringing in Leo Avu'a as cover. That's how many back rows we have.

We have 2 top class back rows. 2 full sets. If they are all injury free and not on intl duty that is.

If we are serious about competing with the Toulouses of this world. We NEED that. They still have a bigger and deeper squad than us, happy and all as I am with our squad.

Have a look at how many games Ryan got for Leinster last year. I would suggest more than Ruddock. (just looked it up. Ruddock 17 games 886 minutes. Ryan 23 games 1273 minutes)

Perhaps that is because Ruddock was on an U20 tour AND a senior one last summer. But Ryan grabbed his chance with both hands.

Undoubtedly more should be done for Connacht, but not by hurting the rest of the provinces.