Irish Provincial teams for next year

First topic message reminder :

Genuinely interested on how Leinster and Munster will shape up over the coming year.
Thinking specifically what the teams will be during the Wc, what they will be after and what they will be at the end.

Below I have listed Ulster with a / being a position I am uncertain over:

15 - Payne, Payne, Payne
11 - Spence, Trimble, Trimble
13 - Cave, Cave/Spence, Cave/Spence
12 - Marshall, Wallace, Wallace/Marshall
11 - Gilroy, Danielli/Gilroy, Gilroy
10 - Humphreys, Humphreys, Humphreys
9 - Marshall, Pienaer, Pienaer
1 - McAllister, Court, McAllister/Court
2 - Kyriacou, Best, Best
3 - Fitzpatrick, Afoa, Afoa
4 - Muller, Muller, Muller
5 - Tuohy, Tuohy/Stevenson, Tuohy/Stevenson
6 - Henry, Ferris, Ferris
7 - Faloon, Faloon/Henry, Faloon/Henry
8 - Wannenberg, Wannenberg, Wannenberg

Assuming predictable WC squad selections i.e. no bolters
As you can see I reckon 2 internationals are Wallace and Court will be fighting to hold on to their provincial spot by the end of the season and that 1 Danielli will not make the team

Do you know if Leinster Rebels is gonna be on tv? I'm gonna be up North for that one then coming down for Ireland vs France the next day.

I think wage demands might see Tommy Bowe staying in Wales. He is on massive money over there (I saw Rob Kearney slagging him off about his massive contract on twitter) and the fact that he isn't tied to any province (but plays for Ireland) makes him popular in both Wales & Ireland for marketing purposes (puts him up there with BOD & POC who are liked and respected in all camps).

The arrangement at the moment would also suit the IRFU - Ospreys paying his wages. He plays in the Magners/Pro12 and seems to be well treated by the Ospreys and is available anytime Declan Kidney wants him.

I think Ulster would be better off investing any money they have available on backrows/2nd rows (and depth) and the halfbacks than on another winger (no depth).

PS - I think Ulster could compete a bit better with Munster if they sent out their first team rather than all their kids.

How they start will play a massive part. If they get a few wins, then their younger players will gain lots of confidence and they will pick up a lot of momentum when their internationals come back.

I feel a slow start will be hard to recover from for all the teams this year.

Sin é wrote:

PS - I think Ulster could compete a bit better with Munster if they sent out their first team rather than all their kids.

Woah, woah tiger. You did see the age profile of the Munster team that rode into Ravenhill last season........

Looking at their team they should get out of the blocks pretty sharpish really. They should be one of the 'good' teams who will be least affected by international call ups really

Anyone know how much the Ireland vs Connacht tickets are and can they be bought at the gate?

I think the Dragons could pose as big a challenge for a play-off spot this season as the Ospreys.

Last season there was very little between 2nd and 6th spot so I don't think anyone can take their play-off spot for granted. 3rd spot flattered Ulster a wee bit last year as we played some poor rugby at times but got a few last minute penalties which got us the points.

Apart from against Cardiff at Ravenhill and in the HEC I can't think of many times last season were we actually played some good rugby. There were too many Pienaar or Humphreys wonder kicks for my liking.

I think we'll need to be much better and more clinical than last season to finish in the top 5.

OnASideNote wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PS - I think Ulster could compete a bit better with Munster if they sent out their first team rather than all their kids.

Woah, woah tiger. You did see the age profile of the Munster team that rode into Ravenhill last season........

I'd put that down to a bad day in the office for them (like how they beat Munster in Thomond Park).

In their away games though, for both Leinster & Munster, they have something like Paddy Wallace at 10 and no sign of Trimble or Ferris. They usually claim that they have to rest them because the IRFU tell them to.

Right and what are you suggesting Ulster's real reasons for resting players would be, if its not an IRFU directive??

Artful_Dodger wrote:Right and what are you suggesting Ulster's real reasons for resting players would be, if its not an IRFU directive??

Possibly a very smart use of their resources. Why risk playing the big names against Munster and Leinster, tire out the front liners and suffer and narrow defeat. Instead use the front line players to get wins over the rest of the opposition. Increases chances of playoff positions but won't get you 1st place.

If thats what they're doing its smart and commendable.

The IRFU do tell us to rest players as they do for all Provinces.

We were specifically told to play Paddy Wallace a t 10 for 2/3 games prior to Christmas

Can't believe this is even being questioned

I find it very unlikely as one of our key aims is better results in the interpros. I would also suggest that its an unlikely strategy given that we did the double over Munster in the Magners in the 09/10 season, difficult to see the plan after that being to play weakened teams and concede defeat against Munster the following season.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but maybe its just as likely that the IRFU choose these matches against Leinster and Munster for Ulster to rest players for.....different reasons.

"Call me a conspiracy theorist but maybe its just as likely that the IRFU choose these matches against Leinster and Munster for Ulster to rest players for.....different reasons."

It makes sense. Keep the points in Ireland.

A team resting a load of internationals is more likely to lose therefore rest players when two Irish teams play eachother so that Munster don't lose to the O's they lose to ulster or Leinster don't lose to Edinburgh they lose to Connacht.

From an IRFU POV it makes perfect sense

That isn't true ...Dublin tells us to rest players from a number of matches. They do not specify which matches - that is up to the Province.

Often the selected matches are dictated by the fixture list.
Ulster for example very rarely would pick a game before a HC match as they think it is important to put out your first team the week before.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Call me a conspiracy theorist but maybe its just as likely that the IRFU choose these matches against Leinster and Munster for Ulster to rest players for.....different reasons.

You're a conspiracy theorist It was definitely frustrating when we were forced to play Wallace at 10 though and it really hindered us in those games. it's even more frustrating when you consider that Kidney has no intention of actually playing him there.

Oh I thought the IRFU had some say in which matches to rest people, apologies

To clarify further we would get a directives along the lines of:

Paddy Wallace can only play 10 of the 15 games before Christmas and 2 of those must be at 10.
Something similar for Tom Court and TH.

After that it is up to us as to the when and where.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Right and what are you suggesting Ulster's real reasons for resting players would be, if its not an IRFU directive??

Maybe they are trying to cod their own supporters. Next season they will play their senior players and there will be an improvement in results which they can point to as a general improvement (if they don't make it out of their Heineken Cup pool).

They always seem to rest them when playing Munster & Leinster away. Munster & Leinster just rest players without saying anything. As for having Paddy Wallace as the starting 10 in Thomond Park with all those kids!

Here is the team that came to Thomond:
Ulster: J Smith (D McIlwaine 70); T Seymour, I Whitten, L Marshall, S Danielli; P Wallace, P Marshall; B Young (D Fitzpatrick 60), R Best, D Fitzpatrick (T Court h-t), T Barker (N McComb 41), R Caldwell, TJ Anderson, W Faloon, R Diack (C Henry 50)

Why aren't Muller, Wannaberg, Pienaar playing?

Ha, that is an astonishingly bad team.

geoff998rugby wrote:To clarify further we would get a directives along the lines of:

Paddy Wallace can only play 10 of the 15 games before Christmas and 2 of those must be at 10.
Something similar for Tom Court and TH.

After that it is up to us as to the when and where.

Just out of interest does the IRFU insist that any other players at the other provinces be played out of position?

Was Fitzgerald played at 15 at Kidneys request? Are there other examples?

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/9095.php

I think photo 17 about sums up Munsters future.......

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ha, that is an astonishingly bad team.

Lambs to the slaughter!

I sometimes wonder about the IRFU having a say in rest players, it has to be like Geoff says,

rest them twice in next 7 games say, and leave it to manager to choose.

Because if the IRFU chose when to rest players for all 4 proviences, then they are open to being accused of match fixing.

If this was the cae it wounldn't be the other Unions that would be the first to pull them up on this, but the bookies.

I think Schmidt was told to play Fitz at 15 yes.

He must also have been told to keep playing Fitzgerald at 11 instead of McFadden, I have no doubt that Schmidt would of dropped Fitzgerald otherwise.

OnASideNote wrote:http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/9095.php

I think photo 17 about sums up Munsters future.......

I agree need to photoshop Murray in there too

Artful_Dodger wrote:He must also have been told to keep playing Fitzgerald at 11 instead of McFadden, I have no doubt that Schmidt would of dropped Fitzgerald otherwise.

I thought this too.

We manage our playing staff to get the best set of overall results..hardly a news story. Everyone does it and our squad is smaller than both Munster and Leinster. It makes perfect sense to me to selected the 2 hardest games of the season as the ones to rest players. As a further FYI that won't apply this year, away to Munster, as it is the last game of the season and could be key.

Incidentally that 'awful' team did pretty well for 70 mins and the kids will be stronger and better for the experience.

For years Ulster picked the the best team week on week and got to the HC physical drained. That was dumb ..Humphreys and McLaughlin are playing it smart.

Artful_Dodger wrote:He must also have been told to keep playing Fitzgerald at 11 instead of McFadden, I have no doubt that Schmidt would of dropped Fitzgerald otherwise.

Is this just hearsay though? It seems Ulster get a raw deal on this, especially as Kidney doesn't think Wallace and Court are good enough in the positions he insists on them being played in to actually play them there himself!

It's to act as a stop gap as such. If Ross was suddenly carted off after 3mins against Australia, DK can at least say Court has had some time at 3 provincially.

Now i believe Tommy will and should come back to Ulster but i am curious as to Munsters great depth in the back three. Where is that depth? Can Stag or Munsty (or Sine) enlighten me.

I make the only top class players

Jones (still a lot to prove though)
Earls (awesome player but potentially a 13)
Howlett (has he only a season left?)
Johne Murphy (not top class)
Zebo (unproven)
Denis Hurley (again not top end but still useful)
I may be missing some guys out but i cant think of any more

Exactly Pete - Court and Wallace are seen as multi position bench players and as such DK wants them to play some game time in their 2nd position.
Maybe its the same with Fitz

OnASideNote wrote:http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/9095.php

I think photo 17 about sums up Munsters future.......

Missing Murray & Sherry. Or do you think its symbolic that BOD is bloodied and on his knees!

Photo 16 is pretty good - Earls (with Felix close behind) gets past BOD, Nacewa & Shaggy to score a try.

And to be fair to Kidney back in the Autumn he had serious considerations about Court actually becoming our starting TH. Didn't he start as TH against New Zealand in the autumn?

It'll be nice for the provinces to have some sort of freedom back after the world cup though. Fitzgerald really did have some awful games and should have been dropped and even the most die hard Paddy Wallace fan wouldn't suggest he should play 10.

roddersm wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:He must also have been told to keep playing Fitzgerald at 11 instead of McFadden, I have no doubt that Schmidt would of dropped Fitzgerald otherwise.

Is this just hearsay though? It seems Ulster get a raw deal on this, especially as Kidney doesn't think Wallace and Court are good enough in the positions he insists on them being played in to actually play them there himself!

Its probably the only reason Paddy Wallace has an international contract. Gordon D'Arcy doesn't (or Marcus Horan)!

Stand, in my opinion we have a good mix of useful squad players, top class performers and promising youngsters in our team.

Denis Hurley for example has bags of provincial experience and was a key player in our 2008 HEC campaign which we won. Still only 27. Same with Johne Murphy who is only finding his feet at Munster. A very useful squad player who ended up at centre way too often last season. He'll be fine on the wing with lots of big game experience. Howlett is a guy with experience and real talent as you say he has a season or two left.

Zebo, Earls, Jones and Deasy (who had a very good game in that Thomond Park game v Ulster) are all promising youngsters and Sean Scanlon is another back 3 player in his early 20s in the squad too. Danny Barnes also plays winger.

Sin é wrote:

OnASideNote wrote:http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/9095.php

I think photo 17 about sums up Munsters future.......

Or do you think its symbolic that BOD is bloodied and on his knees!

Finally......................

red_stag wrote:Stand, in my opinion we have a good mix of useful squad players, top class performers and promising youngsters in our team.

Denis Hurley for example has bags of provincial experience and was a key player in our 2008 HEC campaign which we won. Still only 27. Same with Johne Murphy who is only finding his feet at Munster. A very useful squad player who ended up at centre way too often last season. He'll be fine on the wing with lots of big game experience. Howlett is a guy with experience and real talent as you say he has a season or two left.

Zebo, Earls, Jones and Deasy (who had a very good game in that Thomond Park game v Ulster) are all promising youngsters and Sean Scanlon is another back 3 player in his early 20s in the squad too. Danny Barnes also plays winger.

Stag

Wasnt meant as a dig but i just dont see how they would deem themselves strong enough (i think it was Pete said it though) to say no to Tommy Bowe. Leinster are clearly strongest in this area but Munster would be ideal for Tommy (only if Ulster was out of the question)

As you say you need players like Hurley etc though. Really solid players. Last time i saw him play was for the A's against the Saxons and he was excellent.

Sin é wrote:Its probably the only reason Paddy Wallace has an international contract. Gordon D'Arcy doesn't (or Marcus Horan)!

Why the flip would Horan get an international contract?! .....

Did we say that? I'd love to have Bowe. I'd play him at 13

no i think it might have been pete who said it Stag

Standulstermen wrote:no i think it might have been pete who said it Stag

He's a Leinster fan

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:Its probably the only reason Paddy Wallace has an international contract. Gordon D'Arcy doesn't (or Marcus Horan)!

Why the flip would Horan get an international contract?! .....

He used to have one - he still makes Ireland camps.

It seems that the IRFU are cutting back on international contracts. By right Court wouldn't have an international contract as he is at best 2nd choice Loose Head. For example, Sean O'Brien does not have an interntional contract, but Stephen Ferris those.

Edit: it saves the provinces a pile of money if they have players who have international contracts.

Yeah I said it. I think back3 is one of the strongest positions you have in your team. Maybe when Dougie calls it a day then yeah I'd bring him in. He could do a job at 13 for you I guess.

Sin é wrote:
He used to have one - he still makes Ireland camps.

Of course he did he used to play for Ireland. I'm not sure why you think he warrants one as much as Wallace?

The contract are being cut back to 24 I beleive.

Tom Court would still get one on that basis as you would have, at least 3 props, in the 24.
I would imagine Paddy Wallace will not be renewed, when his contract central contract runs out, but don't know. That is what is happening to a lot of them.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
He used to have one - he still makes Ireland camps.

Of course he did he used to play for Ireland. I'm not sure why you think he warrants one as much as Wallace?

I didn't claim that.

All I want to do is to point out that the IRFU pay Paddy Wallace's (& Tom Courts) wages so they have a say in when, where and how they are played for their province. And since that saves money for Ulster Rugby to be used elsewhere (be it coaching or playing staff), they go along with it.

Sin é wrote:
I didn't claim that.

All I want to do is to point out that the IRFU pay Paddy Wallace's (& Tom Courts) wages so they have a say in when, where and how they are played for their province. And since that saves money for Ulster Rugby to be used elsewhere (be it coaching or playing staff), they go along with it.

Fair enough Sin . I'm not sure why Horan's name got thrown in there though. Anyway let's move on shall we?

Paddy Wallace and Tom Court are like everone on Central contract. At the time Dublin wanted to tie them into the Irish set up and manage their game time.

They are not being treated any different from players at other Provinces with Central Contracts

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I didn't claim that.

All I want to do is to point out that the IRFU pay Paddy Wallace's (& Tom Courts) wages so they have a say in when, where and how they are played for their province. And since that saves money for Ulster Rugby to be used elsewhere (be it coaching or playing staff), they go along with it.

Fair enough Sin . I'm not sure why Horan's name got thrown in there though. Anyway let's move on shall we?

I only mentioned Horan because Tom Court's name was brought up about having to get gametime at TH with Ulster. Horan lost his international contract due to his illness. He still gets called into Ireland squads though and if anything happened to Healy he would be more than likely starting for Ireland as Court would be needed to cover both sides.