606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: STARTING SCRUMHALF

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Edit, all, I'm going to be leaving this poll here for a day or so before moving it back into the RWC selection subsection
Kiwi

First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.

The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is
Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan
Ferris-Heaslip-Wallace

This is going to be a toughie a lot of good options here lads! Keep it clean!

Scrumhalves:

REDDAN: Showed good form since December and seems to be one of the best rounded scrumhalves we have in our 30 man squad. His passing is quick enough and he doesn't hang around the ruck for too long. Can be poor if his pack are going backwards but can also lead from the front and be instrumental in creating quick attacking ball by taking the initative. Average box kick, average defender, big game experience. Good relationship with Heaslip, SOB and Sexton.
STRINGER: Vastly experienced player. Has one of the best passes off the deck in the world regarding pace and accuracy. He also gets the ball our of the ruck very quickly and is great at marshalling his pack. Is very unbalanced as he rarely makes a break, has poor defence and his box kicking is average. Can be an excellent impact sub. Great relationship with O'Gara.
O'LEARY: Exceptionally physical scrumhalf with good defence and is also quick. Versatile in that he can at a push play wing and centre. He is a poor passer for an international scrumhalf. His passing is slow and sometimes very inaccurate. He can take a long time getting the ball away from the ruck also. His decision making can be poor also be it how long it takes him to make a decision and he takes the wrong option more than other international scrumhalves. Average-poor box kicker.

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Cheers
Pete

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:19 pm

Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

No we didn't beat them either.

No, but Burgess & Cooper only got a try each. Considering the pack Ireland had, that wasn't bad going.

All of Australia's attack come from the halfbacks. Reddan gets turned over far too easy.

Those "only" two tries wouldn't happen to be winning ones would they?

I didn't notice Reddan getting turned over too often on Leinsters march through the best in Europe or in Irelands best performance this season.

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:21 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
valjester wrote:
red_stag wrote:
caoimhincentre wrote:
red_stag wrote:Against Australia or France I'd say O'Leary. Reddan for the rest. For what its worth though Reddans performance against South Africa is the worst scrumhalf display I've seen since Bergamasco. Its been sticky forgotten.

Everyone has played bad games.
You need to give reddan credit for the games he played well in to.
As do many in relation to TOL also.
i do give reddan credit. I consider him our best scrumhalf and said as much. However if we play france or australia then oleary is a better pick in my opinion.

Tol is only our best choice if he comes back fit and on form. I don't think he was as bad as people are making out this year, his passing was that slow; he just wasn't making it too the rucks quick enough. If Tol can perform like he did against wales last year then I think he is worth a shot because his defence could be crucial against aus, he would also add some pace. But unless he proves that he is fully fit in the warm ups then he can't be risked. Also none of our scrumhalves should be allowed kick, except murray.

Reddan preformance against south africa was really awful, and I think you're being slightly insulting to bergamasco considering he isn't actually a sh, but he is still probably the best option which is quite depressing. If the pack is on the front foot and generates enough quick ball then hopefully we will be far enough ahead by the time reddan has his brainfart. Reddan will gift the other team 7points or make a bad decision that costs us the opportunity to score.

Stringer shouldn't be considered to start any game; his time at international level has come and gone. The game has moved on and it is no longer enough to just have a pass.

Do people not realise that defence for a scrumhalf isn't as important as nearly every other trait??????

Do they not realise that of all 15 players on the pitch the 9 will normally have to defend the least.

I just plain and simply don't understand why Ireland need O'Leary's defence, why not use a 9 who can attack (and therefore keep the ball) so that we don't have to defend as much!

The only reason TOL's defence will be crucial against Aus is if we give them lots of ball. We have all agreed countless times that keeping the ball against the Australians is the best strategy why oh why would we play a 9 who will directly and/or indirectly give the ball to the Wallabies!?!?!?!

Does TOl not butcher enough try scoring opportunities by taking ages to make up his mind or passing to sexton via the floor!?

Because O'Leary is a hard bastauraud and will hold his own against the Aus backrow. Reddan gets scragged far too often, not to mention the no of intercept tries he gives away.

If O'Leary's injury woes are sorted, he will be starting.

by D24tress Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:26 pm

sin e as a matter of interest what would you starting 22 be for the world cup

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:26 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

No we didn't beat them either.

No, but Burgess & Cooper only got a try each. Considering the pack Ireland had, that wasn't bad going.

All of Australia's attack come from the halfbacks. Reddan gets turned over far too easy.

Those "only" two tries wouldn't happen to be winning ones would they?

I didn't notice Reddan getting turned over too often on Leinsters march through the best in Europe or in Irelands best performance this season.

You miss Thomson's try then?

A Wood/Haskell/Easter combination isn't exactly a daunting backrow!

While it might not have happened in Europe, it happened in Thomond Park, his most recent game Wink

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:29 pm

Ok Sin here it is for you step by step

1) If Reddan clears ball quickly the Aus defence has less time to set
2) If it has less time to set our ball carriers will make more yards
3) If they make more yards our rucking becomes easier due to going forwards

Reddan won't be "snagged" if he is going forwards the way we know he can get our backs moving.

Also can't think of any more than 2 moments where reddan has thrown an intercept pass. Other examples???

Reddan getting "snagged" is pretty similar to TOL OUR SCRUMHALF picking and driving no??? Doh

Notice how he'd bossed the English backrow all over the park during the rest of that game!

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:33 pm

Sin é wrote:You miss Thomson's try then?

A Wood/Haskell/Easter combination isn't exactly a daunting backrow!

While it might not have happened in Europe, it happened in Thomond Park, his most recent game

Nope the Thompson pass was a big mistake but it was counterbalanced by the fact that Reddans sharp and accurate service and decisions making were a big factor in us winning that game.

That was a very good Munster performance at Thomond sin, tell me how did O'Leary get on that day?

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:34 pm

D24tress wrote:sin e as a matter of interest what would you starting 22 be for the world cup

Against Australia:

Healy/Best*/Ross
POC & DOC
Ferris/Wallace/Heaslip
Sexton/O'Leary
BOD/D'Arcy
Trimble/Earls*/Bowe

*depending on how Jones works out.
If Jones works out, I'd have Earls instead of Trimble as Earls & Jones have a good thing going.

Cronin
Court
Ryan
SOB
McFaddan
Reddan
ROG

I'd have Kearney starting at Fullback if we get to play SA. And I'd have Flannery ahead of Best if he is fit.

by BATH_BTGOG Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:39 pm

Shouldn't this be in the fantasy section?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:41 pm

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Shouldn't this be in the fantasy section?

It's out here for 24 hours - refer the red text in the OP

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:47 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ok Sin here it is for you step by step

1) If Reddan clears ball quickly the Aus defence has less time to set. They won't bother setting their defence, they won't need to because Rocky Elsom will be in Sexton's face before he can blink.
2) If it has less time to set our ball carriers will make more yards. First things first, secure the ball.
3) If they make more yards our rucking becomes easier due to going forwards.

Reddan won't be "snagged" if he is going forwards the way we know he can get our backs moving. A bit 'if' there.

Also can't think of any more than 2 moments where reddan has thrown an intercept pass. Other examples??? I only mentioned that game because it was held up as an example as to how brilliant Reddan was in it.

Reddan getting "snagged" is pretty similar to TOL OUR SCRUMHALF picking and driving no??? O'Leary has the physicality to make a break and when he does he is able to recycle it.

Notice how he'd bossed the English backrow all over the park during the rest of that game! Yep, the English backrow. Can't see him bossing Rocky Elsom around somehow

by BATH_BTGOG Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:51 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
BATH_BTGOG wrote:Shouldn't this be in the fantasy section?
It's out here for 24 hours - refer the red text in the OP

Why?

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:55 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
valjester wrote:
red_stag wrote:
caoimhincentre wrote:
red_stag wrote:Against Australia or France I'd say O'Leary. Reddan for the rest. For what its worth though Reddans performance against South Africa is the worst scrumhalf display I've seen since Bergamasco. Its been sticky forgotten.

Everyone has played bad games.
You need to give reddan credit for the games he played well in to.
As do many in relation to TOL also.
i do give reddan credit. I consider him our best scrumhalf and said as much. However if we play france or australia then oleary is a better pick in my opinion.

Tol is only our best choice if he comes back fit and on form. I don't think he was as bad as people are making out this year, his passing was that slow; he just wasn't making it too the rucks quick enough. If Tol can perform like he did against wales last year then I think he is worth a shot because his defence could be crucial against aus, he would also add some pace. But unless he proves that he is fully fit in the warm ups then he can't be risked. Also none of our scrumhalves should be allowed kick, except murray.

Reddan preformance against south africa was really awful, and I think you're being slightly insulting to bergamasco considering he isn't actually a sh, but he is still probably the best option which is quite depressing. If the pack is on the front foot and generates enough quick ball then hopefully we will be far enough ahead by the time reddan has his brainfart. Reddan will gift the other team 7points or make a bad decision that costs us the opportunity to score.

Stringer shouldn't be considered to start any game; his time at international level has come and gone. The game has moved on and it is no longer enough to just have a pass.

Do people not realise that defence for a scrumhalf isn't as important as nearly every other trait??????

Do they not realise that of all 15 players on the pitch the 9 will normally have to defend the least.

I just plain and simply don't understand why Ireland need O'Leary's defence, why not use a 9 who can attack (and therefore keep the ball) so that we don't have to defend as much!

The only reason TOL's defence will be crucial against Aus is if we give them lots of ball. We have all agreed countless times that keeping the ball against the Australians is the best strategy why oh why would we play a 9 who will directly and/or indirectly give the ball to the Wallabies!?!?!?!

Does TOl not butcher enough try scoring opportunities by taking ages to make up his mind or passing to sexton via the floor!?

Where have I said that reddan would gift the other team through poor defence? He is more likely to hand them the ball.
Australia don't need lots of ball to win games, they are capable of beating teams with 40% possession or less. Obviously we don't want to hand them the ball unnecessarily but if we kick smartly we can gain an advantage as bowe and earls are very good chasers, but like I said none of our scrumhalves except murray should be allowed to kick. Reddan is a poor kicker as well as tol. Once again I think you're overplaying how poor tol's passing is, especially in relation to reddan. His passing was accurate in the games in played this year, the problem was the amount of time he took to get to the ruck and to make up his mind.

I'm not calling for tol to start, I'm just saying that if he were to show form in the warm ups, he might be the best option. Against wales last year he played with sexton and they played very well as a pair.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:58 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

No we didn't beat them either.

No, but Burgess & Cooper only got a try each. Considering the pack Ireland had, that wasn't bad going.

All of Australia's attack come from the halfbacks. Reddan gets turned over far too easy.

Ridiculous statement!

So if the ball gets kicked long Beale has to wait for genia and cooper to come back before he can run the ball yeah?
Australia have threats all over the backline.
Do you mean when Reddan runs the ball he gets turned over far too easily?? If that is what you are trying to say that's just silly.

Cooper will defend from 15, like he does for the reds, so he is right with what he says in that cooper usually starts any attack. I'm not sure what burgess has to do with the argument considering he is possibly worse than any option ireland have and will only start if we get lucky and genia is injured.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:05 pm

Sin-

That post is just taking the p***.

Val-
Wasn't implying you said that. But why should we give the Aussies more ball that they would normally get it sounds like we are loading the gun that will shoot us.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:10 pm

Sin the Australian back row will be in whoever plays scrum half's face. The problem is TOL is the one who is most likely to still have the ball when they get to him.

Reddan had made as many clean breaks as TOL for Ireland this season and has been turned over less times. TOL has a habit of taking the ball on himself and getting isolated, you might think this is a great asset to us but I don't. I'd rather see Sexton,Bowe or Heaslip with the ball in their hands than TOL.

Considering the form Elsom is in I would say that the English backrow Reddan faced was as daunting as the one the australians will bring. Thats twice you've mocked the English back row but you are forgetting that England beat them twice last year. They also did it by utlisiing QUICK ball and hitting the Australians on the break, some thing we won't be able to do if we start with TOL.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:15 pm

roddersm wrote:Sin the Australian back row will be in whoever plays scrum half's face. The problem is TOL is the one who is most likely to still have the ball when they get to him.

Reddan had made as many clean breaks as TOL for Ireland this season and has been turned over less times. TOL has a habit of taking the ball on himself and getting isolated, you might think this is a great asset to us but I don't. I'd rather see Sexton,Bowe or Heaslip with the ball in their hands than TOL.

Considering the form Elsom is in I would say that the English backrow Reddan faced was as daunting as the one the australians will bring. Thats twice you've mocked the English back row but you are forgetting that England beat them twice last year. They also did it by utlisiing QUICK ball and hitting the Australians on the break, some thing we won't be able to do if we start with TOL.

+1

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:17 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-

That post is just taking the p***.

Val-
Wasn't implying you said that. But why should we give the Aussies more ball that they would normally get it sounds like we are loading the gun that will shoot us.

Reddan kicks a lot as well and he is quite poor at it. Unless Murray plays at scrumhalf, they shouldn't kick at all. Leave the kicking to Sexton, P.Wallace and Kearney/Earls and no one else, only those who can kick. Then we have to make sure that bowe, trimble/earls and the other chasers are up quick closing down cooper, who is liable to run the ball and get isolated at times. There is no problem with kicking once we kick well and the chase is good. It was noticeable in the super15 final that there was a lot of kicking but the chase was very poor meaning that once the player caught the ball they were running back into space. Hopefully Ireland can exploit this by having a good chase for our own kicks and having our back 3 run back ball. I thought genia in particular had a lot of poor kicks both in terms of it being the wrong decision and a poor kick.

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:21 pm

valjester wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

No we didn't beat them either.

No, but Burgess & Cooper only got a try each. Considering the pack Ireland had, that wasn't bad going.

All of Australia's attack come from the halfbacks. Reddan gets turned over far too easy.

Ridiculous statement!

So if the ball gets kicked long Beale has to wait for genia and cooper to come back before he can run the ball yeah?
Australia have threats all over the backline.
Do you mean when Reddan runs the ball he gets turned over far too easily?? If that is what you are trying to say that's just silly.

Cooper will defend from 15, like he does for the reds, so he is right with what he says in that cooper usually starts any attack. I'm not sure what burgess has to do with the argument considering he is possibly worse than any option ireland have and will only start if we get lucky and genia is injured.

Thanks for putting it better than I did. Most of Australia's attack comes from the half-backs. (Only mentioned Burgess as he played against Ireland last year).

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:23 pm

roddersm wrote:Sin the Australian back row will be in whoever plays scrum half's face. The problem is TOL is the one who is most likely to still have the ball when they get to him.

Reddan had made as many clean breaks as TOL for Ireland this season and has been turned over less times. TOL has a habit of taking the ball on himself and getting isolated, you might think this is a great asset to us but I don't. I'd rather see Sexton,Bowe or Heaslip with the ball in their hands than TOL.

Considering the form Elsom is in I would say that the English backrow Reddan faced was as daunting as the one the australians will bring. Thats twice you've mocked the English back row but you are forgetting that England beat them twice last year. They also did it by utlisiing QUICK ball and hitting the Australians on the break, some thing we won't be able to do if we start with TOL.

I think England beat australia by beating them up in the forwards as well as the bolded part. You can't have one without the other. I hope whoever plays at scrumhalf takes a few chances and runs it them self but they will need to be supported. TOL can get isolated and reddan sometimes attempts stupid offloads and loses possession. If a scrumhalf is just to pass all day we may as well play stringer. Reddan should start but as has been said before this is the start of a new season so no player has form to speak off. The warm up games will show us how kidney is thinking but I think most of us can agree that this is probably our weakest position along with backup props.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:29 pm

valjester wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-

That post is just taking the p***.

Val-
Wasn't implying you said that. But why should we give the Aussies more ball that they would normally get it sounds like we are loading the gun that will shoot us.

Reddan kicks a lot as well and he is quite poor at it. Unless Murray plays at scrumhalf, they shouldn't kick at all. Leave the kicking to Sexton, P.Wallace and Kearney/Earls and no one else, only those who can kick. Then we have to make sure that bowe, trimble/earls and the other chasers are up quick closing down cooper, who is liable to run the ball and get isolated at times. There is no problem with kicking once we kick well and the chase is good. It was noticeable in the super15 final that there was a lot of kicking but the chase was very poor meaning that once the player caught the ball they were running back into space. Hopefully Ireland can exploit this by having a good chase for our own kicks and having our back 3 run back ball. I thought genia in particular had a lot of poor kicks both in terms of it being the wrong decision and a poor kick.

By giving the ball away I don't really mean kicks although these count as well.

What I mean is: if we have slow ball, the Aussie defence will be set and we will find it very hard to break through or even make substantial yardage. This will force us into making mistakes, getting turned over at the breakdown or being forced to kick it away.
That's what I mean by not giving them the ball. TOL playing will result in us giving them the ball indirectly.

I have no problem with kicking as long as it is tactical and well executed with the ensuing chase.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:36 pm

valjester wrote:I think England beat australia by beating them up in the forwards as well as the bolded part. You can't have one without the other.

Actually you can have one without the other but the problem is beating a team up in the forwards is no use if you don't score any points. Unless were going to rely on kicking penalties then we'll need quick ball to score tries.

Sorry we don't want a scrum half to pass all day. We want a scrum half who will pass when we need to pass, kick when we need to kick and run when there's a gap. That isn't stringer or O'leary. Actually thats probably Murray but as he has no international experience yet then Reddan is the only other guy who can fill this role.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:38 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
valjester wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-

That post is just taking the p***.

Val-
Wasn't implying you said that. But why should we give the Aussies more ball that they would normally get it sounds like we are loading the gun that will shoot us.

Reddan kicks a lot as well and he is quite poor at it. Unless Murray plays at scrumhalf, they shouldn't kick at all. Leave the kicking to Sexton, P.Wallace and Kearney/Earls and no one else, only those who can kick. Then we have to make sure that bowe, trimble/earls and the other chasers are up quick closing down cooper, who is liable to run the ball and get isolated at times. There is no problem with kicking once we kick well and the chase is good. It was noticeable in the super15 final that there was a lot of kicking but the chase was very poor meaning that once the player caught the ball they were running back into space. Hopefully Ireland can exploit this by having a good chase for our own kicks and having our back 3 run back ball. I thought genia in particular had a lot of poor kicks both in terms of it being the wrong decision and a poor kick.

By giving the ball away I don't really mean kicks although these count as well.

What I mean is: if we have slow ball, the Aussie defence will be set and we will find it very hard to break through or even make substantial yardage. This will force us into making mistakes, getting turned over at the breakdown or being forced to kick it away.
That's what I mean by not giving them the ball. TOL playing will result in us giving them the ball indirectly.

I have no problem with kicking as long as it is tactical and well executed with the ensuing chase.

It depends on how he plays, I'm willing to give him the benefit of doubt that his injuries have been the reason for some of his poor play and a bit like kearney that he has being following the tactics to rigidly. He has shown in the past that he can mix it up and if he is told just get to the breakdown and pass it out I'm sure he can do it. Like I said I think his passing has been accurate and as fast as reddan/boss, even if reddan's service is much quicker. I think he should be given a shot in the warmups to see if he is fully recovered. He should probably get one of the french games as they are probably the hardest and if he can do it against them he should be able to do it against aus. Give reddan the other French one. Tol would have to play very well to get ahead of reddan or else reddan to have a nightmare but it can only be good for Ireland if tol gets back to form and plays well.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:39 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
By giving the ball away I don't really mean kicks although these count as well.

What I mean is: if we have slow ball, the Aussie defence will be set and we will find it very hard to break through or even make substantial yardage. This will force us into making mistakes, getting turned over at the breakdown or being forced to kick it away.
That's what I mean by not giving them the ball. TOL playing will result in us giving them the ball indirectly.

I have no problem with kicking as long as it is tactical and well executed with the ensuing chase.

Spot on pete. The 1st two 6N games are perfect examples of this.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:41 pm

roddersm wrote:
valjester wrote:I think England beat australia by beating them up in the forwards as well as the bolded part. You can't have one without the other.

Actually you can have one without the other but the problem is beating a team up in the forwards is no use if you don't score any points. Unless were going to rely on kicking penalties then we'll need quick ball to score tries.

Sorry we don't want a scrum half to pass all day. We want a scrum half who will pass when we need to pass, kick when we need to kick and run when there's a gap. That isn't stringer or O'leary. Actually thats probably Murray but as he has no international experience yet then Reddan is the only other guy who can fill this role.

But you're not going to get quick ball if you're being beaten up in the forwards all day. Reddan's kicking is not very good either and his decision making is appalling. Murray doesn't have the experience and it is probably asking too much for him to get into the squad. He would have to play exceptionally in any chance he gets. I suppose it all comes back to all our options have flaws and they are all going to cost us in one way or another.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:44 pm

roddersm wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
By giving the ball away I don't really mean kicks although these count as well.

What I mean is: if we have slow ball, the Aussie defence will be set and we will find it very hard to break through or even make substantial yardage. This will force us into making mistakes, getting turned over at the breakdown or being forced to kick it away.
That's what I mean by not giving them the ball. TOL playing will result in us giving them the ball indirectly.

I have no problem with kicking as long as it is tactical and well executed with the ensuing chase.

Spot on pete. The 1st two 6N games are perfect examples of this.

The problems in the first two games of the six nations where knock ons and poor discipline more than slow ball. We should have hammered Italy, D'arcy dropped three balls within feet of the try line and bod threw a pass about a metre over mcfadden's head when mcfadden had a clear run to the line. Against france we scored three tries to one and should have had more but didn't due to poor handling and poor decision making.

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:44 pm

roddersm wrote:Sin the Australian back row will be in whoever plays scrum half's face. The problem is TOL is the one who is most likely to still have the ball when they get to him.

Reddan had made as many clean breaks as TOL for Ireland this season and has been turned over less times. TOL has a habit of taking the ball on himself and getting isolated, you might think this is a great asset to us but I don't. I'd rather see Sexton,Bowe or Heaslip with the ball in their hands than TOL.

Considering the form Elsom is in I would say that the English backrow Reddan faced was as daunting as the one the australians will bring. Thats twice you've mocked the English back row but you are forgetting that England beat them twice last year. They also did it by utlisiing QUICK ball and hitting the Australians on the break, some thing we won't be able to do if we start with TOL.

And the facts are that because of his physicality, he is able to recycle it without getting turned over. His pace can be a problem though for our forwards to keep up with.

For the record for the 6Ns.
Got Turnovered
O'Leary 4
Reddan 5

Breaks made
O'Leary 10
Reddan 7

Bear in mind that O'Leary was carrying an injury when he played (suffering from back spasms).

Neither Haskell or Wood (who were in England's backrow against Ireland) were involved in any of the victories over Australia. It might have been a different result if Louis Moody & Tom Croft were in England's backrow.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:51 pm

valjester wrote:
But you're not going to get quick ball if you're being beaten up in the forwards all day. Reddan's kicking is not very good either and his decision making is appalling.

True but why would we be expecting to get beat up in the forwards against Australia? If we do we will lose whoever is at 9. However if we get parity then we will stand a far better chance of winning with Reddan at 9.

You are wrong, Reddans descision making and kicking is FAR better than O'Leary's.

As has been discussed here before TOL is very good at executing rehearsed set piece moves but once we go into multi phases, which we will need to do, he is appalling. Rugby is a simple game, you create space and utilise it.

TOL simply can't play heads up rugby, he can't see where the space is so he either takes the ball in to contact, boots the ball away, ships the ball to the 10 or relies on a forward drive. None of which with any thought behind it and mostly at the wrong times.

More often than not with TOL on the field we go through phase after phase until we concede possession.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:57 pm

roddersm wrote:
valjester wrote:
But you're not going to get quick ball if you're being beaten up in the forwards all day. Reddan's kicking is not very good either and his decision making is appalling.

True but why would we be expecting to get beat up in the forwards against Australia? If we do we will lose whoever is at 9. However if we get parity then we will stand a far better chance of winning with Reddan at 9.

You are wrong, Reddans descision making and kicking is FAR better than O'Leary's.

As has been discussed here before TOL is very good at executing rehearsed set piece moves but once we go into multi phases, which we will need to do, he is appalling. Rugby is a simple game, you create space and utilise it.

TOL simply can't play heads up rugby, he can't see where the space is so he either takes the ball in to contact, boots the ball away, ships the ball to the 10 or relies on a forward drive. None of which with any thought behind it and mostly at the wrong times.

More often than not with TOL on the field we go through phase after phase until we concede possession.

Its not really saying much if its better than tols, reddan is not a good kicker. His decision making is fine once he doesn't actually have to think about it and so long as his pack is on top. Tol has never done anything as stupid as reddan attempting a kick 5m from the london irish line or a quick tap 5m from his own in the magners league final.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:58 pm

Thanks sin for dispelling a few myths around O'leary. So the guy who is so much better at making breaks and retaining posession actually got turned over 4 times and only made 3 more breaks than Reddan, who apparantly can't make breaks and gets turned over all the time.

I'm sorry but that doesn't compensate for his awful service.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:02 pm

valjester wrote:Tol has never done anything as stupid as reddan attempting a kick 5m from the london irish line or a quick tap 5m from his own in the magners league final.

Yes he has. That box kick into touch against france when we'd turned over the ball inside the french half was most stupid piece of play I've ever seen from a scrum half.

Even at school boy level you know that you keep turn over ball in hand. We had brilliant attacking opportunity, with a big overlap, just before half time and TOL didn't even look up he just kicked the ball away and it went straight into touch.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:03 pm

valjester wrote:
roddersm wrote:
valjester wrote:I think England beat australia by beating them up in the forwards as well as the bolded part. You can't have one without the other.

Actually you can have one without the other but the problem is beating a team up in the forwards is no use if you don't score any points. Unless were going to rely on kicking penalties then we'll need quick ball to score tries.

Sorry we don't want a scrum half to pass all day. We want a scrum half who will pass when we need to pass, kick when we need to kick and run when there's a gap. That isn't stringer or O'leary. Actually thats probably Murray but as he has no international experience yet then Reddan is the only other guy who can fill this role.

But you're not going to get quick ball if you're being beaten up in the forwards all day. Reddan's kicking is not very good either and his decision making is appalling. Murray doesn't have the experience and it is probably asking too much for him to get into the squad. He would have to play exceptionally in any chance he gets. I suppose it all comes back to all our options have flaws and they are all going to cost us in one way or another.

The point of it Val is that it's a cycle as such.

Quick ball=defence not set
Defence not set=easier to make yards with ball carrier
Make yards with ball carrier=easier to recycle quick ball

It's just a loop. Unfortunatly TOL puts a spanner right into that well oiled machine.
His passing accuracy is awful for an international level scrumhalf. He takes so long to make decisions and his pass is slower than all our other 9's.

Sin-
"And the facts are that because of his physicality, he is able to recycle it without getting turned over. His pace can be a problem though for our forwards to keep up with."
Who cares if when he gets tackled he gets the ball back, that is more due to where the forwards are or how hard they ruck at that particular moment. TOL can't pass to the level of an international 9, that is important!

If my scrumhalf was making a break anyway I would want them to make a break like TOL did for Bowe's try 2 6n ago or Reddan in the HCup final, where they make yards and then eventually link, or at elast try to. The idea of our 9 running straight into an entire second row doesn't make me feel very positive.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:06 pm

Val and Sin-

There's a reason TOL only has two votes...

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:07 pm

valjester wrote:
roddersm wrote:
valjester wrote:
But you're not going to get quick ball if you're being beaten up in the forwards all day. Reddan's kicking is not very good either and his decision making is appalling.

True but why would we be expecting to get beat up in the forwards against Australia? If we do we will lose whoever is at 9. However if we get parity then we will stand a far better chance of winning with Reddan at 9.

You are wrong, Reddans descision making and kicking is FAR better than O'Leary's.

As has been discussed here before TOL is very good at executing rehearsed set piece moves but once we go into multi phases, which we will need to do, he is appalling. Rugby is a simple game, you create space and utilise it.

TOL simply can't play heads up rugby, he can't see where the space is so he either takes the ball in to contact, boots the ball away, ships the ball to the 10 or relies on a forward drive. None of which with any thought behind it and mostly at the wrong times.

More often than not with TOL on the field we go through phase after phase until we concede possession.

Its not really saying much if its better than tols, reddan is not a good kicker. His decision making is fine once he doesn't actually have to think about it and so long as his pack is on top. Tol has never done anything as stupid as reddan attempting a kick 5m from the london irish line or a quick tap 5m from his own in the magners league final.

I also think BOD saved his skin by getting his hands on the ball and booting it downfield in the Magners final as well on another occasion when he attempted to run the ball from his own 5mm line. Its like as if someone told him to never, ever kick the ball and he is taking it literally.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:11 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
The point of it Val is that it's a cycle as such.

Quick ball=defence not set
Defence not set=easier to make yards with ball carrier
Make yards with ball carrier=easier to recycle quick ball

It's just a loop. Unfortunatly TOL puts a spanner right into that well oiled machine.
His passing accuracy is awful for an international level scrumhalf. He takes so long to make decisions and his pass is slower than all our other 9's.

Yes but my point is that it is much harder to get quick ball if your pack is being beaten up. If your pack is beaten up then your scrumhalf is going to be under pressure as the ball won't be clean so therefore its harder to recycle quickly as the scrumhalf has to dig in for the ball and by the time he gets it and gets the pass of the defence is up and it becomes harder and harder to recycle and eventually the ball is kicked away or turned over or a penalty given away. You can't lay the blame for slow ball solely on the scrumhalf. Tol's accuracy for passing is fine or at least it was in the six nations, but yes it is slow and he takes too long at rucks and too long getting there. But if our pack is beaten up, it won't matter if we have fourie du preez playing for us, the ball will still be slow and we will have to kick.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:13 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Val and Sin-

There's a reason TOL only has two votes...

I voted for Reddan. I'm just saying that O'Leary isn't as bad as he is being made out to be. At his best he is capable of making a lions touring panel, none of our other options have ever come close to achieving that.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:14 pm

Sin é wrote: Its like as if someone told him to never, ever kick the ball and he is taking it literally.

Well he must have ignored that advice when he put in those perfectly executed box kicks against England which allowed Bowe and Trimble to put the England back 3 under so much pressure.

There's a reason we beat England and we lost to france and wales.....we kept hold of the ball and used the ball we had well. That is how we will beat australia too, not by coughing up cheap possession because our no 9 is putting our back line and ball carriers under pressure by giving them slow ball behind the gainline.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:15 pm

Val-

Like I said it can be the 9's fault if the ball is slow. Cyclic.

Let's say Healy and Ferris are making hay carrying. Then all of a sudden our 9 pauses wondering whether to go left or right to 10 or to a forward, kick or keep ball. that pause allows the defence to get that bit more set making it harder on the Healy's and Ferris's to make the yards.

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:23 pm

roddersm wrote:Thanks sin for dispelling a few myths around O'leary. So the guy who is so much better at making breaks and retaining posession actually got turned over 4 times and only made 3 more breaks than Reddan, who apparantly can't make breaks and gets turned over all the time.

I'm sorry but that doesn't compensate for his awful service.

Facts are that O'Leary was playing injured during the 6Ns. Reddan was supposedly fit. Even at that, Ireland scored 3 tries against France with O'Leary at SH.

An Ireland with Reddan at SH managed to score 3 against Scotland - but that was with O'Gara at OH. Wink

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:26 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote: Its like as if someone told him to never, ever kick the ball and he is taking it literally.

Well he must have ignored that advice when he put in those perfectly executed box kicks against England which allowed Bowe and Trimble to put the England back 3 under so much pressure.

There's a reason we beat England and we lost to france and wales.....we kept hold of the ball and used the ball we had well. That is how we will beat australia too, not by coughing up cheap possession because our no 9 is putting our back line and ball carriers under pressure by giving them slow ball behind the gainline.

The reason we lost against wales and france is because we didn't take our chances. We can't blame everything on our scrumhalves. We know they have their flaws and we have to plan around them. Reddan should start but tol is not as bad as is being made out.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Val-

Like I said it can be the 9's fault if the ball is slow. Cyclic.

Let's say Healy and Ferris are making hay carrying. Then all of a sudden our 9 pauses wondering whether to go left or right to 10 or to a forward, kick or keep ball. that pause allows the defence to get that bit more set making it harder on the Healy's and Ferris's to make the yards.

Yes that can happen but that was a problem for Ireland even with reddan during the six nations.

I think I've changed my mind, I want murray to start. It would have been interesting to see how many votes he would have got in this poll.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:31 pm

Well he was just beaten by TOL in the 'chose your RWC Irish squad' poll.

Personally I'd like him to go ahead of TOL. I think Murray could be a gem.

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:32 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote: Its like as if someone told him to never, ever kick the ball and he is taking it literally.

Well he must have ignored that advice when he put in those perfectly executed box kicks against England which allowed Bowe and Trimble to put the England back 3 under so much pressure.

There's a reason we beat England and we lost to france and wales.....we kept hold of the ball and used the ball we had well. That is how we will beat australia too, not by coughing up cheap possession because our no 9 is putting our back line and ball carriers under pressure by giving them slow ball behind the gainline.

Yep - Ireland pack was on top of their game against England (no stupid penalties for the scrum) unlike against France & Wales. (By the way, O'Leary was not involved in the Welsh game so you shouldn't be blaming him for that loss).

PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:34 pm

Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote: Its like as if someone told him to never, ever kick the ball and he is taking it literally.

Well he must have ignored that advice when he put in those perfectly executed box kicks against England which allowed Bowe and Trimble to put the England back 3 under so much pressure.

There's a reason we beat England and we lost to france and wales.....we kept hold of the ball and used the ball we had well. That is how we will beat australia too, not by coughing up cheap possession because our no 9 is putting our back line and ball carriers under pressure by giving them slow ball behind the gainline.

Yep - Ireland pack was on top of their game against England (no stupid penalties for the scrum) unlike against France & Wales. (By the way, O'Leary was not involved in the Welsh game so you shouldn't be blaming him for that loss).

PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

But I presume that includes earls little chips to himself because the only long kick I can remember him doing was the one in the lead up to youngs being sin binned.

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:36 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well he was just beaten by TOL in the 'chose your RWC Irish squad' poll.

Personally I'd like him to go ahead of TOL. I think Murray could be a gem.

I voted Tol, Reddan and Stringer because thats what I think Kidney will bring.
If I was picking I'd probably bring Tol, Reddan and Murray.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:39 pm

Sin é wrote:
PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

I should hope so, he was the full back. What has this got to do with anything?

That reinforces again how Reddan helped execute a superb game plan. 3 kicks that were all effective and the rest of the time keeping the ball in hand. You can ask no more of a scrum half and I hope O'leary was watching as he might have learnt a few things.

Val I'm sorry pal but the slow ball and struggling to get over the gainline was not a problem when Reddan was playing. It is a problem directly caused by O'leary. Our back row is very good at producing quick ball but unfortunately O'Leary is even better at slowing it down.

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:44 pm

valjester wrote:
Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote: Its like as if someone told him to never, ever kick the ball and he is taking it literally.

Well he must have ignored that advice when he put in those perfectly executed box kicks against England which allowed Bowe and Trimble to put the England back 3 under so much pressure.

There's a reason we beat England and we lost to france and wales.....we kept hold of the ball and used the ball we had well. That is how we will beat australia too, not by coughing up cheap possession because our no 9 is putting our back line and ball carriers under pressure by giving them slow ball behind the gainline.

Yep - Ireland pack was on top of their game against England (no stupid penalties for the scrum) unlike against France & Wales. (By the way, O'Leary was not involved in the Welsh game so you shouldn't be blaming him for that loss).

PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

But I presume that includes earls little chips to himself because the only long kick I can remember him doing was the one in the lead up to youngs being sin binned.

Three box kicks from Reddan wasn't what kept Foden & Ashton back, as Rodders claims. Earls runs & his little chips had more to do with that.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:45 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

I should hope so, he was the full back. What has this got to do with anything?

That reinforces again how Reddan helped execute a superb game plan. 3 kicks that were all effective and the rest of the time keeping the ball in hand. You can ask no more of a scrum half and I hope O'leary was watching as he might have learnt a few things.

Val I'm sorry pal but the slow ball and struggling to get over the gainline was not a problem when Reddan was playing. It is a problem directly caused by O'leary. Our back row is very good at producing quick ball but unfortunately O'Leary is even better at slowing it down.

I agree. TOL does literally destroy quick ball a lot of the time he is like a ball and chain to the rest of our backline.

Sin- "Three box kicks from Reddan wasn't what kept Foden & Ashton back, as Rodders claims. Earls runs & his little chips had more to do with that."
How?! What are you talking about?!

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:45 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

I should hope so, he was the full back. What has this got to do with anything?

That reinforces again how Reddan helped execute a superb game plan. 3 kicks that were all effective and the rest of the time keeping the ball in hand. You can ask no more of a scrum half and I hope O'leary was watching as he might have learnt a few things.

Val I'm sorry pal but the slow ball and struggling to get over the gainline was not a problem when Reddan was playing. It is a problem directly caused by O'leary. Our back row is very good at producing quick ball but unfortunately O'Leary is even better at slowing it down.

Watch the south africa match from last year again. I'm not saying that tol is the better option but you are being overly harsh if you are trying to blame him entirely for the problem. If tol has to reach into the ruck to fight for the ball before passing it, that isn't his fault. Of course there are times when he comes up to the ruck and looks both ways before deciding what to do and that is obviously something he has to eradicate if he wants to get the jersey back but you can't blame him for everything.

by Sin é Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:47 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

I should hope so, he was the full back. What has this got to do with anything?

That reinforces again how Reddan helped execute a superb game plan. 3 kicks that were all effective and the rest of the time keeping the ball in hand. You can ask no more of a scrum half and I hope O'leary was watching as he might have learnt a few things.

Val I'm sorry pal but the slow ball and struggling to get over the gainline was not a problem when Reddan was playing. It is a problem directly caused by O'leary. Our back row is very good at producing quick ball but unfortunately O'Leary is even better at slowing it down.

eh, O'Leary kicked the ball twice (2) against France. Rolling Eyes

by valjester Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
valjester wrote:
Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote: Its like as if someone told him to never, ever kick the ball and he is taking it literally.

Well he must have ignored that advice when he put in those perfectly executed box kicks against England which allowed Bowe and Trimble to put the England back 3 under so much pressure.

There's a reason we beat England and we lost to france and wales.....we kept hold of the ball and used the ball we had well. That is how we will beat australia too, not by coughing up cheap possession because our no 9 is putting our back line and ball carriers under pressure by giving them slow ball behind the gainline.

Yep - Ireland pack was on top of their game against England (no stupid penalties for the scrum) unlike against France & Wales. (By the way, O'Leary was not involved in the Welsh game so you shouldn't be blaming him for that loss).

PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

But I presume that includes earls little chips to himself because the only long kick I can remember him doing was the one in the lead up to youngs being sin binned.

Three box kicks from Reddan wasn't what kept Foden & Ashton back, as Rodders claims. Earls runs & his little chips had more to do with that.

I don't think either of them really had much effect on keeping them back. Reddan's kicks weren't great but the chase made them effective.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:50 pm

valjester wrote:
roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
PS - Earls (5 times) kicked the ball more than Reddan (3) did in the game against England.

I should hope so, he was the full back. What has this got to do with anything?

That reinforces again how Reddan helped execute a superb game plan. 3 kicks that were all effective and the rest of the time keeping the ball in hand. You can ask no more of a scrum half and I hope O'leary was watching as he might have learnt a few things.

Val I'm sorry pal but the slow ball and struggling to get over the gainline was not a problem when Reddan was playing. It is a problem directly caused by O'leary. Our back row is very good at producing quick ball but unfortunately O'Leary is even better at slowing it down.

Watch the south africa match from last year again. I'm not saying that tol is the better option but you are being overly harsh if you are trying to blame him entirely for the problem. If tol has to reach into the ruck to fight for the ball before passing it, that isn't his fault. Of course there are times when he comes up to the ruck and looks both ways before deciding what to do and that is obviously something he has to eradicate if he wants to get the jersey back but you can't blame him for everything.

VAL

- It can be his fault and often is because.....

if he took his time at the ruck before that then it makes it harder for the ball carrier to go forward and harder for the supporting players to ruck over because the defence aren't going backwards. That in turn makes it harder for the 9 to get the ball.

Indirectly it can easily be the 9's fault.

SIN mad

There are more ways of slowing the ball down than just kicking it!!!!! Doh

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