Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

Well if it's a straw poll like that & the Irish are 'representing the Pro 12'.

I dare say it will be 2-1 in favour of change as proposed by the French & English

SecretFly wrote:And just what IS 'Europe's Elite'???

Europe's Elite are the sides that have won it, not the leagues that contribute to it....but don't actually run it.

So Europe's elite are:
Toulouse and Brive for France,
Wasps, Tigers, Saints and Bath for England,
Munster, Leinster and Ulster for Ireland.

That's Ireland five times winners, France five times winners and England six times winners. That's the elite.

So, if we must have a vote of the Elite as to what's best for the HC and who should be allowed in it, - we Irish, as representatives of the Pro12, say the Scots and Italians can retain their rights to HC spots within our league.

Those in favour say Aye? Those against say No? ____ The Aye's have it.

But not the Welsh obviously.

Pot Hale wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:Places are awarded to the countries involved in the six nations so the top 8 in the Pro12 will never work.

It wouldnt be voted in because of the 4 countries involved in the Pro12 league but it would arguably produce a better overall quality 24 team HC.

Would it?

Treviso are having a brilliant game against Sarries at the moment. Would the overall quality improve if it was Wasps or Newcastle or Bayonne instead?

Yes & good luck to them.

However most teams are fairly happy to be drawn in a group with an Italian club aren't they?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Well if it's a straw poll like that & the Irish are 'representing the Pro 12'.

I dare say it will be 2-1 in favour of change as proposed by the French & English

No, Trev, the idea was you could vote on yours (HC spots), France would vote on theirs, and we'd control ours

Anyway, in a more serious vein, how would a better class of Pro12 side getting into HC impact on what AP are doing anyway?

It would just make it again tougher for AP sides when they clash with Pro12, which they are already finding a tough task - even with Pro12 sides that are allegedly push-overs - Connacht?

The best Pro12 sides would still be managing players to get the best out of both competitions, still resting players when they could, - against weaker opposition and at strategic points in a season (weaker opposition does exist in AP too, believe me).

So how would what Pro12 do with HC placements have any real impact on English success? If England then still kept to the alleged same formula of never resting their best players (myth), they'd still run into a brick wall come HC pool time. It's AP priorities that are wrong, not which 'weakling' sides manage to steal their way into the HC.

The way things are going at the moment Ireland, Wales and Italy should be looking for more representation in the HC at the expense of the French and English.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
It wouldnt be voted in because of the 4 countries involved in the Pro12 league but it would arguably produce a better overall quality 24 team HC.

It's only the English who want us to change that argue that,why do people still think that the European Cup should not represent all the top countries in Europe.Why do the English think their way is best when all the evidence points to them being wrong?

Cracking game just finished between Treviso and Saracens 20-26. Treviso nearly snuck it at the death with a scrum penalty on 5m line but Sarries held out for their home quarter.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

6. But our league is more competitive because we have relegation.
Really? REALLY? Is someone trying to claim Newcastle are competitive?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
It wouldnt be voted in because of the 4 countries involved in the Pro12 league but it would arguably produce a better overall quality 24 team HC.

It's only the English who want us to change that argue that,why do people still think that the European Cup should not represent all the top countries in Europe.Why do the English think their way is best when all the evidence points to them being wrong?

The French as well actually

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
It wouldnt be voted in because of the 4 countries involved in the Pro12 league but it would arguably produce a better overall quality 24 team HC.

It's only the English who want us to change that argue that,why do people still think that the European Cup should not represent all the top countries in Europe.Why do the English think their way is best when all the evidence points to them being wrong?

The French as well actually

Have the French actually said that they want the H Cup qualification process for the Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian Unions to change so that instead of picking their teams the way they want them, they should pick them, the way the English and French unions want them to? Have they actually said that?

If they have, then I think there should be a few proposals from the Pro 12 to the Premier Rugby and Top 14. I've been drafting a few to send on to Mr McCafferty and his cronies in the Top 14.......

1. The French must impose a salary cap equivalent to the England one. There must be no difference between the two. And keep it reasonable ffs, none of this mad stuff we've been reading about in the papers.

2. The French must commit to sending a full team to every match in the Heineken Cup, even when a team is not likely to qualify for the knockout rounds.

3. The Premiership teams must reduce the number of imports of foreign players in line with what the Pro12 teams are doing, particularly in the case of Irish teams. By 2014, there should be no more than 4 foreign players in any match-day squad and two of these should be on the bench. This will give more match-time to English players who should be playing in the Heineken Cup.

4. The Anglo-Welsh trophy should be abandoned as a competition or at least not involve any senior squad players from any Premiership team.

5. The Premiership must agree a similar Player Management Programme to that operated by some of the unions in the Pro12.

6. There are too many teams in the Premiership. From 2014, bolt the trapdoor on 10 teams and keep it like that for an agreed period - say ten years.

7. Instead of picking the top 6 from the Premiership to qualify for the H Cup, Premier Rugby should change this to 6 nominated teams that it believes can last the pace - with relegation abolished, and using a much bigger pool of English players to add depth to their squads within a restricted salary cap base, this should be achievable. If yiz can't agree, pick the names out of a hat and just get on with it.

8. If you do all that, we'll let you play in a final in 2015 during your World Cup year, can't say fairer than that.

Quote from the Telegraph answers your question


"There’s something else that McCafferty feels strongly about. He, along with a number of senior figures among the French and English clubs, believes the current qualifying arrangements for Europe’s premier competition are flawed, and that the prospects of the French and English representatives are being unfairly skewed by a cosy Celtic-Italian coalition.
Put simply, English and French Rugby Union teams have to bust a gut to qualify from their respective domestic leagues while any old middling outfit can get through from the RaboDirect Pro 12, a new name for an old sinecure, the Celtic alliance plus Italy. McCafferty and friends are so peeved about the perceived inequality that they are making, strong representations to European Rugby Cup Ltd, the organisation that runs both European tournaments."

Who does any of this explain how only Sarries qualified for the QF?

Because the English sides have to work hard at qualifying for the HEC so are worn out for it. I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of the thread wasn't it? [not saying it's true]

Does the IRFU enforce (or the provinces have in place) a player management system for their non-international players? The English EPS players do have a system in place (resulting in them missing something like 6 addition games per year). I don't know how many the Irish internationals miss.

There is a limit of one foreign player (possibly two) in the English squads. Can't do anything about the employment law with Europe/Kolpak. The English clubs aren't as reliant on the RFU funding as the Welsh and Irish teams are. As far as I'm aware this is what governs the quotas of foreign players.

EDIT: On average 2 teams from the Jeff qualify for quarters. Occasionally it's been three, occasionally it's been one. Biggest change recently is that all three of the Irish provinces are on form, either due to the system, current players, alignment of the stars, whatever.

What position is McCafferty again in the RFU? He is involved in the Union right? This isn't just the body for the Jeff clubs trying to flex their muscles to give their teams more money is it?

This weekend was the final group games for this years competition. Sky Sports are a big ugly organisation that solely in business to deliver a profit by getting viewers in front of the gogglebox watching stuff their have exclusive rights to. Big Bad Inc. decided the best lineup for the key Saturday was back to back fixtures containing Irish provinces on its main channel. The red button exists but only to a portion of the potential viewers so they have to make the call as to what games will get bums on seats! Leinster, Ulster, Munster all prime billing. Even on the Friday night they were showing Quins with Connacht instead of an english club taking on the mighty Toulouse on English soil.

What would be the team to be kicked out of the HC if this thing was to be rejigged? Aironi.
Because groups containing that team always supply two teams to the knock outs because they struggle at his level? Yes.
So then the English team in that pool qualified, if 2 of the remaining 3 go through? No.
And is there any reason why the Italians should get two teams in? Well there is a non-profit view that you need more than one club in a country at a competitive level to develop the sport there. Being in a Comp like the HCup builds profile and gives them a slice of revenue to go to developing rugby in that country.
Is it working? Well, yes and no so far. Treviso are no longer whipping boys but Aironi, being a new amalgamation of older clubs (see Wales for slow take up of that kind of shuffle), has been slower to improve. But more of the Italian international team are now based in Italy instead of abroad and they aren't the whipping boys of the 6Ns anymore. So the work isn't completed, but there are signs it is helping to move things in the right direction.
And how does PRL come into this? To be honest, they are looking after the interests of their clubs. They are in a bigger market and continuously sell their league as the best in the world with no equal. They, along with the Top14, also pay top whack on the wage front which drives up the primary cost of clubs and reduces profit. As the RFU nominate the top sides from the PRL to represent England in the HCup, the PRL objective is to get their teams as much money as possible and argue for rules to be changed to give their teams an advantage in hope of winning the thing. Winning the HCup would show that they do have the best league in the world and are top dogs. Advancing to latter stages of the competition gets more revenues into those clubs and increases the profits of those PRL members.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
It wouldnt be voted in because of the 4 countries involved in the Pro12 league but it would arguably produce a better overall quality 24 team HC.

It's only the English who want us to change that argue that,why do people still think that the European Cup should not represent all the top countries in Europe.Why do the English think their way is best when all the evidence points to them being wrong?

The French as well actually

I have seen no evidence that the French want a change - do you have a source ?

If.....

If ...

......if French and English clubs want change to the HC qualification process within the Pro12, you can be damn sure the Pro 12 will want changes too - in English and French leagues. ie, less of them getting in by right when only three from each ever look like having a chance.

You see, French and English leagues have their own Aironi's and Connachts. And I'm sure we'd want them - well everyone is being nicely blunt on this subject - we'd want them shafted!

"Oh???? - Never thought about that? - Never thought that the minnow League would have demands of its own???? - or have the temerity to question the qualification process and HC numbers of ye olde traditional leagues in France and England? If push comes to shove - they will.

Its called negotiation. Ask for more than you want to give yourself wiggle room. My view is that for the Pro12's sake we should tie qualification to league placing. That has nothing to do with England or France. It would add INTENSITY which is sadly lacking (outside of local derbies and third to sixth a month before the play off positions are decided) in the Pro12.

SecretFly wrote:If.....

If ...

......if French and English clubs want change to the HC qualification process within the Pro12, you can be damn sure the Pro 12 will want changes too - in English and French leagues. ie, less of them getting in by right when only three from each ever look like having a chance.

You see, French and English leagues have their own Aironi's and Connachts. And I'm sure we'd want them - well everyone is being nicely blunt on this subject - we'd want them shafted!

"Oh???? - Never thought about that? - Never thought that the minnow League would have demands of its own???? - or have the temerity to question the qualification process and HC numbers of ye olde traditional leagues in France and England? If push comes to shove - they will.

What like Newcastle and Worcester, who have lets be honest no chance of finishing in the top 6 positions

Knackeredknees wrote:

SecretFly wrote:If.....

If ...

......if French and English clubs want change to the HC qualification process within the Pro12, you can be damn sure the Pro 12 will want changes too - in English and French leagues. ie, less of them getting in by right when only three from each ever look like having a chance.

You see, French and English leagues have their own Aironi's and Connachts. And I'm sure we'd want them - well everyone is being nicely blunt on this subject - we'd want them shafted!

"Oh???? - Never thought about that? - Never thought that the minnow League would have demands of its own???? - or have the temerity to question the qualification process and HC numbers of ye olde traditional leagues in France and England? If push comes to shove - they will.

What like Newcastle and Worcester, who have lets be honest no chance of finishing in the top 6 positions

No - like the three HC qualifiers who never look like they have a snowball's chance in hell in any given year. Those sides change all the time but the rhythm of English rugby is that only three at most ever look like they are ready to compete in HC. The same for the French.

No he meant London Irish.

(sorry Pete)

At the moment its all kneejerk stuff for this season, last year sarries were rubbish in the HC this year only 1 loss (so far) and the others have had bad runs, but next year who knows? We may have 5 in the Qtrs or none, Ireland may only have 1 or all 4, Wales may have all or nothing, but i do think that league placement is a good idea

Glas a du wrote: That has nothing to do with England or France.

Envy or anger or righteous indignation - call it what you want - any of that coming from the other leagues about the Pro12 has everything to do with England and France. Everything. And they should know that if demands are made - demands will be made.

AP league = INTENSE. AP HC Involvement = NOT SO INTENSE.
PRO12 = NOT SO INTENSE. PRO12 HC Involvement = INTENSE.

Glas you keep up this INTENSE thing - you seldom mention the PRIORITY thing. Wise sides prioritise one over the other, STILL wanting to win both but managing the whole better. AP just see the start line at the beginning of the season, look down the track to the end and Ready, Steady, Go for everything at 100metre sprint speed (myth but that's the fantasy we keep hearing so we'll pretend we believe it for the purposes of the argument).

Better management of resources is the key, not calling for changes to an external league. But if the call comes, it will be answered by demands of our own.

SecretFly wrote:

Glas a du wrote: That has nothing to do with England or France.

Envy or anger or righteous indignation - call it what you want - any of that coming from the other leagues about the Pro12 has everything to do with England and France. Everything. And they should know that if demands are made - demands will be made.

AP league = INTENSE. AP HC Involvement = NOT SO INTENSE.
PRO12 = NOT SO INTENSE. PRO12 HC Involvement = INTENSE.

Glas you keep up this INTENSE thing - you seldom mention the PRIORITY thing. Wise sides prioritise one over the other, STILL wanting to win both but managing the whole better. AP just see the start line at the beginning of the season, look down the track to the end and Ready, Steady, Go for everything at 100metre sprint speed (myth but that's the fantasy we keep hearing so we'll pretend we believe it for the purposes of the argument).

Better management of resources is the key, not calling for changes to an external league. But if the call comes, it will be answered by demands of our own.

But all the Welsh and Irish sides have to do is not be the worse in there country (i better that Connaught or Scarlets/Dragons) not really a tough qualifing criteria

But all the Welsh and Irish sides have to do is not be the worse in there country (i better that Connaught or Dragons) not really a tough qualifing criteria

Fixed that for you.

Fly, I know that. My point is that the freedom to prioritise in such a manner is what deadens the games for the fans and means not so many of them turn up (apart from in Ireland). There are not enough consequences for failure in individual Rabo games to make it an intense occasion FOR THE FANS. Compare this to the Heineken Cup where every game is vital and the consequences of failure are dire.

Cheers Glas
Realised that the dragons were in the amlin so changed it, just not quick enough

But all the Welsh and Irish sides have to do is not be the worse in there country (i better that Connaught or Scarlets/Dragons) not really a tough qualifing criteria.

And YET last year was an Irish 1,2,3 in the league! Remarkable.

Knackerknees - so are the top seven or eight sides in AP forever wondering which thing they are playing for when they meet each other and the weaker sides in their weekly League games?

The League itself is important - yes? Of course it is - we keep getting told just how important it is; the history, the tradition, the fans, the Leicester players giving each other broken bones in rough and ready battle-hardened training.

So the League is important silverware at the end of the year. Now when the Leicester player goes out on the field, what is he thinking?

"I want this game for playoffs and League chances"
- Or -
"Flip it in hell!, we need this game to make sure we're still in with a Heineken cup challenge next season"

How many reasons do you need to want to win a game and prove yourself better?

The top six or seven in the League are the real potential sides of that League. There is always an inevitable top rung and bottom rung in leagues. So the top knows they are usually fighting for both League and HC spots, with the rest of the league also rans 'fighting' for relegation.
That's six places up for grabs between a realistic seven or eight sides each year. There's your harder battle to qualify. And it doesn't amount to much of a tougher battle in my eyes.

Meanwhile, in Ireland, the sides that can relax and not let Pro12 positions really matter to them all that much, the Irish sides who use the Pro12 for their young lads to 'train' - well they're still always up there or thereabouts in the League. In short, they're still trying to win it, and sending out sides they hope will perform better than their opponents. But they are also prioritising. Planning strategically throughout the year.

Meanwhile, also back in the real world; Edinburgh, Treviso and even Connacht are proving to English observers that the bottom of the Pro12 is not cannon-fodder. You do need to want to win against them and have a plan and attitude to do so. Leinster know it, Munster knows it, Ospreys know it, Scarlets know it.

Yes, HC is regarded higher over here in Ireland - some of us would say our priorities in the right place in that regard. It is a better competition than any of the leagues individually - in a sense, it IS the top league in Europe. And for now, Pro12 sides are doing okay in that league of leagues.

Mickado wrote:

But all the Welsh and Irish sides have to do is not be the worse in there country (i better that Connaught or Scarlets/Dragons) not really a tough qualifing criteria.

And YET last year was an Irish 1,2,3 in the league! Remarkable.

No it's not.

It really is simple:

Do you consider that the HC is the best it can be, or are you prepared to allow some teams in irrespective of merit as each of the 6 Nations need to be represented?

Do you consider the Rabo Pro 12 to be a league, or is it a collection of mini leagues and an overarching league all rolled into one?

Does the lack of support at Pro12 matches outside Ireland or local derbies concern you, or is that a price worth paying to keep the Status Quo?

This is all about weighing up the pros and cons and compromising if necessary. English club rugby is seemingly under pressure from the French decision not to have a wage cap. We understand that they are taking a huge punt, it really is Poopie or bust for their backers. In the football Premiership that hasn't mattered as new money has always been found. Will that be the case in Rugby? England and France will find out. Our administrators will do us a disservice however if they do not look at whether the Pro 12 could be bettered. In my view the positives of looking outside a narrow national interest to tie HC qualification to league placing are worth the risks of the negatives that could flow. It would be better to do this on our own terms when we have a choice than be forced to do it when we do not.

P.S. for all "regional" supporters clapping themselves on the back, consider your chances if England and France went to Regions.

Secret, it's all about priority, the main Irish side do not have to worry about qualifying so can afford to rest/test players and to an extent so can the welsh sides. The Italian and Scottish sides could only play their best players on HC games and only play kids for the Pro12 as they automatically qualify.
On the other side the English and French sides have to fight for every point, as looking at it bath and Baritz won't qualify for next years comp as they won't get to sixth(or seventh if sarries or a French side win). Yet as long as Scarlett's finish one place above the dragons they qualify even if there 11th and dragons 12th

Knackered, so you would actually prefer to see the six strongest sides from Pro12, regardless of nationality go through to HC.

This would mean, in your eyes, that Pro12 top players would have to stay on the field longer, have more games and risk injury and the run-down in form and energy at the end of a season. And so, in that scenario, Pro12 would then be in balance with AP and Top 14.

A level playing field.

Well, for one, (and I'll get back to this with Glas a little later), but for one, it's already not a level playing field with the French and their lack of a cap. So, if English clubs see themselves at a disadvantage to both Pro12 AND Top 14; then we can at least join you in turning on the frowns at French clubs and saying we are at a disadvantage.

But to keep with your point. Let's say top six Pro12 teams through - could be four Irish, two Scottish or four Welsh and two Italian sides.

I still say Pro12 sides will use the only weapon they have as a collection of countries with much smaller playing and economic resources than England and France - that is to say, I still tell you Pro12 sides - most of them - will mix and match teams and try to get through a season by using their better players at strategic points along the way, and saving them in the proverbial cotton wool for future encounters. The Pro12 sides, out of necessity, will still manage and still prioritise. (maybe not competitions this time, but games)

And so, when AP and Top 14 HC participants expect a blown out Leinster or Munster or Edinburgh or Cardiff or Ospreys or Treviso to show up and offer up a greatly reduced threat in the pool stages, I'm kinda warning you that it won't happen that way.

Out of necessity, we have to micromanage our players and will continue to do so. So - when every Pro12 side is micro-managing, we'll still be using our younger inexperienced players to help get the HC spot and trying to protect, as much as possible, the players we feel we'll need if we get those HC spots.

I'm telling you the problem in English rugby is not outside, it's the idea of no trust shown to lesser players to do the man's work of league duty. (That's what we keep getting told - all the best players in AP play longer because they 'have to') I'm saying trust to your lesser players more, give them the experience and you end up not having to always trust in your HC potential players.



Glas - you do realise French and English clubs (the bigger ones) are already 'regions'? In terms of collective population catchment areas?

Why threaten a LACK of real competition (as would be the case if England and France divided up into regions) as a solution to improve competitiveness?

Knackeredknees, Leinster fight for every point. That's why they're top of the league. And I'm amazed English team don't rest/test players in league games. That's incredible. It's almost beyond belief. But if you say so. Essentially the English seem to be complaining that the Irish prioritize the HEC to much and it's to hard to beat them. And they're saying "Could you please prioritize it less, like us, so we can win it?" Which is ridiculous. If an English team wants to win the Heineken Cup then they just have to face up to the Irish challenge in the competition. If you can you'll win it. If you can't, we're not going to change our setup to make it easier for you. Sorry. Not unless you reduce your population tenfold to make it fairer on us.

Glas a du, it's sounds like you're searching for magic bullet to increase Welsh attedances. Well, there isn't one. The Pro12 already has the most attractive style of rugby. You can see the best Welsh internationals and a very talented crop of youngsters, but still the attendances are low. I've heard the problem was ticket prices, and the location of stadiums, and bad refs, and the economy. Now you're saying it's the HEC qualification? I doubt it. It's just proving very difficult for the new regions to capture the publics imagination. Partly because of the bungled job they did in switching to regions. Partly because the old club game was so close to Welsh hearts. Partly because the Welsh only seem interested in playing each other and the English.

And again, I'll repeat, the Pro12 has nothing to do with the Heineken Cup.

I'm telling you the problem in English rugby is not outside, it's the idea of no trust shown to lesser players to do the man's work of league duty. (That's what we keep getting told - all the best players in AP play longer because they 'have to') I'm saying trust to your lesser players more, give them the experience and you end up not having to always trust in your HC potential players.

I do think that's true for a lot of the clubs if not all of them. Trouble is the lower ones lose there best acadamy players to the bigger clubs and these clubs are scared to play them because the expectations are so high.

I think a lot sides do rest players but it depends. At Quins, Robshaw, Brown, Turner-Hall and Lowe at least played every game they weren't injured last year. And it seems to be the way this year as well. Saracens are well known for their rotation policy although I'm not sure they still use it. They've certainly done well with it in the last couple of years. Maybe it'll catch on.

[of course if everyone is resting players then everyone can, if some aren't then it in theory because more of an issue]

Is the Heino a serious competition more like?! Did anyone see the side Leinster put out on Saturday?

Hagan, Ruddock, Browne starting...no Sexton, Ross, Jennings, Reddan, Toner, McGlaughlin?

FFS lads take the competition seriously!

roddersm wrote:Is the Heino a serious competition more like?! Did anyone see the side Leinster put out on Saturday?

Hagan, Ruddock, Browne, Madigan starting...no Sexton, Ross, Jennings, Reddan, Toner, McGlaughlin?

FFS lads take the competition seriously!

Fixed that for you there Rodders

HammerofThunor wrote:
[of course if everyone is resting players then everyone can, if some aren't then it in theory because more of an issue]

But that's the problem in a nutshell Thunor "Hey, wait a second now...well maybe...No - no effing way! Not now. I won't. I'm not going to rest any players because he's just put up his team and it's all his big boys"

The fear of the unknown - the fear that you always get a result you want with the big boys and never get it with the younger players. AP sides need to get over that sense of - if we use four or five young rookies, our season is a bloody disaster!!! No, it's not necessarily - young rookies playing alongside a smattering of seniors is good for the club's consistency, as the young guys will be further along in experience when they meet the side that wouldn't chance theirs on that night, two years ago.

Thing is Feckless if an AP teams put there priority on the HC rather than the league, they run the risk of not qualifying for the next years tournament, while the Pro12 teams get money from the respective unions regardless it would be to much of a gamble for an AP team to not get the revenue in that the HC generates.

Knackeredknees wrote:Thing is Feckless if an AP teams put there priority on the HC rather than the league, they run the risk of not qualifying for the next years tournament, while the Pro12 teams get money from the respective unions regardless it would be to much of a gamble for an AP team to not get the revenue in that the HC generates.

Thats not strictly true. The Irish provinces are subsidised but they still need to generate their own revenue. Geoff can you confirm? HEC qualification is very important and with Connacht getting stronger each year we have to look over our shoulders.

roddersm wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:Thing is Feckless if an AP teams put there priority on the HC rather than the league, they run the risk of not qualifying for the next years tournament, while the Pro12 teams get money from the respective unions regardless it would be to much of a gamble for an AP team to not get the revenue in that the HC generates.

Thats not strictly true. The Irish provinces are subsidised but they still need to generate their own revenue. Geoff can you confirm? HEC qualification is very important and with Connacht getting stronger each year we have to look over our shoulders.

It's the subsidiary that helps if you know your getting it regardless. Tigers and Saints have the fan base to still make the money but it will hit their plans big time.

How long do you think it will be before Connacht are real contenders for that 3rd spot?

Knackeredknees wrote:Thing is Feckless if an AP teams put there priority on the HC rather than the league, they run the risk of not qualifying for the next years tournament, while the Pro12 teams get money from the respective unions regardless it would be to much of a gamble for an AP team to not get the revenue in that the HC generates.

But surely this is an English internal problem? Why are you calling for us to change our league? Nobody is forcing English rugby to award the HEC places to the top 6 finishing teams in their league every year. If it's such a terrible hindrance then they shouldn't do it that way. Why not award a license to 6 English teams to enter the Heineken Cup for a set number of years. Let them have a higher cap for a bigger squad to fight on two fronts. Every few years the weakest one loses their license and other teams can apply. Why doesn't the RFU buy 6 clubs and have them as permanent Heineken Cup teams. Why don't the RFU create 6 regions? If the English think there's a problem then they have to sort it out themselves. Not demand that we replicate their failing system.

By the way rodders, that's a good point about Leinsters team at the weekend. A good few young players who wouldn't be considered first choice started. Does that now mean Leinster aren't taking the HEC seriously?

No. They still won. They're just using the full potential of their whole squad.

Ok name the six teams?

Now what do you think would happen to the sides told your not entering?

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:Thing is Feckless if an AP teams put there priority on the HC rather than the league, they run the risk of not qualifying for the next years tournament, while the Pro12 teams get money from the respective unions regardless it would be to much of a gamble for an AP team to not get the revenue in that the HC generates.

But surely this is an English internal problem? Why are you calling for us to change our league? Nobody is forcing English rugby to award the HEC places to the top 6 finishing teams in their league every year. If it's such a terrible hindrance then they shouldn't do it that way. Why not award a license to 6 English teams to enter the Heineken Cup for a set number of years. Let them have a higher cap for a bigger squad to fight on two fronts. Every few years the weakest one loses their license and other teams can apply. Why doesn't the RFU buy 6 clubs and have them as permanent Heineken Cup teams. Why don't the RFU create 6 regions? If the English think there's a problem then they have to sort it out themselves. Not demand that we replicate their failing system.

By the way rodders, that's a good point about Leinsters team at the weekend. A good few young players who wouldn't be considered first choice started. Does that now mean Leinster aren't taking the HEC seriously?

No. They still won. They're just using the full potential of their whole squad.

+1 Feckless, been saying this for months - It really pishes me off that the English think they can start changing other Unions structures for the benefit of their teams, its actually quite sad.

Besides, even if the allocation of HC spots changed, you would still have Leinster, Munster and Ulster qualifying through the Rabo at a canter and then focusing on the HC. When the English clubs and RFU come to terms with the fact that their own systems and structures are the problems and that other Union can allocate how they choose, maybe then the English clubs will start competing again.

Just looked up some fact from last year.

Ulster had 11 players who played 21 or more games last (max 29)
Of those 2 played in every game.

That list includes players who were unavailable due to International call ups - Court, Wallace and Danielli

Trimble, Best and Cave are not there simply because of injuries.
10 was split between O'Connor and Humphreys which is why a 10 isn't included.

Bottom line is Ulster did very little resting of players last year and by and large played the best team available

Yes the Provinces do get money from Dublin but it is not an open cheque book and we need to generate more income through sales of mercandise and progressing in competitions - like the HC.

The model in Ireland is very different but it works and we should not apologise for that. The finances of Irish rugby in general and the Provinces are in ride health - if it ain't broke dont fix it.
We are not completely seperate legal entitites.

As mentioned before, inspite of the above our salaries are no higher than the rest of Britain and Ireland.

There is nothing stopping other countries having the same model - if they choose not to do so thats there problem.

There is nothing stopping England having no relegation, regional teams, central contracts etc etc - dont moan about life being unfair. If it is not producing the outcome required do something about dont expect others to change.

It's not about how you run your union or regions/provinces it's about the qualifying criteria. The salary cap works as it stops teams buying up all the talent and being unstoppable(then winge when the players are selected).

The Irish at the moment have nothing to worry about as there always going to be in the top half of the league. If everyone had to fight for the qualification would it make the league stronger or weaker? If treviso were 7th and needed to win to qualify playing the 6th placed team(say Ospreys) in Italy, do you think the Ospreys would fly over with a second string side as they would now? Hell no they would have all the big guns out as would treviso, more people would watch that than a dead rubber game

Knackeredknees wrote:Ok name the six teams?

Now what do you think would happen to the sides told your not entering?

Well I didn't want to go into the details of what was an off the cuff, off the top of my head suggestion. But if you insist.

There would obviously have to be clear criteria to get a Heineken Cup license. Results over a few years, standard of stadium, attendances, financial stability etc.

So under those criteria, the best 6 teams would get say, 4 years in the Heineken Cup They would have the time and stability to have a crack at the HEC without worrying about qualifying next year. In fact their priority would be the HEC, because the renewal of their license would depend on their performances in it. This eliminates any perceived advantage the Celts have.

The teams who miss out will have to up their game to meet the HEC criteria, in time to apply the next time the license is up for grabs. This plan would probably require the AP to be ringfenced for four year periods too. It could mirror a four year cycle that already exists in the international game.

Not saying that's a perfect plan. Just made it up in my head in the last 5 minutes. But it's more constructive than asking other unions to change their league. Because that's not gonna happen I'm afraid.

Another suggestion would be a euro league, which would eliminate all these arguments and put every team in Europe on a level playing field in one competition. I wonder how people would explain an Irish team winning that one? Biased referees probably.

Euro league is a non starter as the French will never agree.

geoff, a Euro league already exists and it's called Heineken. And wouldn't you know, the instance there is a little Irish dominance of it, it must be organised wrong.

There was a period of English dominance, I hope everyone knows. And the star of the league is a French side, I hope we all know that too. And things kinda go in curves, I hope everyone understands that.

And if people who are now critical are a little more patient, Irish dominance will wilt inevitably and English or French or indeed Welsh or Scottish dominance might come to the fore. And then, when English and French sides are back in the driving seat, the competition will be perfect again and no need for changes.

Patience - my new word to add to Intensity and Priority.

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Not until all the teams take it seriously.

Glas - you do realise French and English clubs (the bigger ones) are already 'regions'? In terms of collective population catchment areas?

Certainly. Welsh clubs were just the same pre 1990 and the establishment in England of the Courage Leagues.

Glas a du, it's sounds like you're searching for magic bullet to increase Welsh attedances. Well, there isn't one. The Pro12 already has the most attractive style of rugby. You can see the best Welsh internationals and a very talented crop of youngsters, but still the attendances are low. I've heard the problem was ticket prices, and the location of stadiums, and bad refs, and the economy. Now you're saying it's the HEC qualification? I doubt it. It's just proving very difficult for the new regions to capture the publics imagination. Partly because of the bungled job they did in switching to regions. Partly because the old club game was so close to Welsh hearts. Partly because the Welsh only seem interested in playing each other and the English.

That sounds to me like "I'm all right Jack"