Keith Earls and the number 13

First topic message reminder :

So Munster have named Keith Earls at outside centre against Treviso. This is now Earls' third match in a row where he has played 13 and looks set to continue this against Castres and Northampton. Given his past experience here for Munster, Ireland and Lions is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote: Stag, I'm delighted Botha is here for 2 years.

Rods, there is an interview in the ST (behind paywall) with BJ. Said its nice to be in a team that has focus and direction

Seriously, he sounds like the ultra professional. No bones about being here to make a few bob. Said you had to fight for respect in Munster. Said he misses all his saffer mates & some butcher who made special sausages for him up in Belfast.

Edit: he also said that he didn't think that the IRFU would go ahead with ruling that foreign players could have only one contract.

Rugby player
Gastronome
Business Analyist

He's some catch! Keep him.... at least until his contract is ceremonially burned at the airport by the angry IRFU official with the long memory, with Botha in handcuffs to make sure he gets on the plane!

He is a farmer as well - he will be able to give the Bull a dig out when it gets busy in the spring.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote: Seriously, he sounds like the ultra professional. No bones about being here to make a few bob. Said you had to fight for respect in Munster. Said he misses all his saffer mates & some butcher who made special sausages for him up in Belfast.

Ha ha Sin, just spotted that one...you never miss a trick sir!

Posted on Munsterfans - mods if you have a problem with this, please delete.


[quote]BJ BOTHA FROM BEHIND THE ST PAYWALL

On difference between NH and SH forward play:
“It’s harder work. It’s slower. It’s more impacts. Heavier ground. It’s really dog work. The scrumming was never as intense down south with us in South Africa as it is here. In tight phases, whether it’s a drive or a lineout, it was not as intense because you can play the ball a lot. Not saying that they can’t do it here but I just feel it is more diffficult here.”

Playing tighhead:
“I’m glad I moved from loosehead to tight head – the confrontation but also the accountability you have there. You need to be accountable. The majority of the time, when they look at a scrum that went badly, they look at you. You live up to the challenge. Wheatever they bring you, you just have to bury them again and again and again. That’s the key. You have to stand up each week.”

Experience as a player:
“When I was younger I got myself into a situation where you think about it too much. With a little bit of experience, you give yourself more room to….you’re more relaxed until you hit the field. At that stage something takes over you that you can’t explain. You’re in your own little world and can’t even hear the crowd. That’s the kind of situation I find myself in.
When I was younger you got on the field and you were buzzing. It lasts 10 minutes and then it’s over. To work yourself through a game, to really be ready for contact, ready for each scrum – you need concentration. You can’t concentrate when you’re in that mental state that you’re hyped up and ready to run through a brick wall”

Move to Munster from Belfast:
“You can imagine, I was taking them [wife and family] out of their comfort zone [settled in Belfast with other SA player families about] coming here. But from a rugby point of view – not saying that’s the most important thing – but that’s the reason we are over here. I’m not here for a holiday. They understand that, they know it’s just temporary”.

New IRFU NIQ Guidelines:
“You hear about that but whether it’s going to happen or not is also another debate. So you hold onto the fact that it’s not going to.”

Playing with Munster:
“There’s a special vibe coming through. I’m enjoying it. It’s nice to be in a team like this where we have direction and know where we’re going. It’s a journey. When you come to a big organisation like Munster you have to fight for your respect. Actions speak louder than words. You put your body on the line and show that you’re buying into everything here. Hopefully, I’ve done that a small bit”.
[quote]

Rods, I'm not making it up. Someone stepped on his corns in Ulster.

Anyone notice POC making a bee line over to shake hands with Botha (who was sitting down) when POC came off?

Move to Munster from Belfast:
“You can imagine, I was taking them [wife and family] out of their comfort zone [settled in Belfast with other SA player families about] coming here. But from a rugby point of view – not saying that’s the most important thing – but that’s the reason we are over here. I’m not here for a holiday. They understand that, they know it’s just temporary

I love the way the bit about the SA player families is in brackets. Where those BJs words or added in by the interviewer? Up until the beginning of last season Botha and Diack were the only two South Africans at Ulster.

I think that is a summary of what he said by the ST. When I read the article in the newspaper, he mentioned the butcher in Belfast who made sausages the SA way for him and the rest - thats not mentioned here. I got the impression from the article that his family was well setled up there and were happy. Are all the saffers living close to each other?

Anyway - they have Wian & Shaun Payne in Munster.

Sin é wrote: I got the impression from the article that his family was well setled up there and were happy.

I don't doubt that but its the inference that the main reason he was happy was because there were a load of SA players. No doubt that was a factor bet he was at Ulster a couple of season before the others arrived. Belfast is a small place so no doubt the players are not too far away from each other.

My starting team v Wales based on current form

Healy – Best – Ross
POC – Toner
Ferris – Heaslip – O’Brien
Reddan – Sexton
Fitzgerald – McFadden – O’Malley – Bowe
Kearney

Cronin – Court – Ryan – Jennings – Murray – Madigan – Earls

Healy – Best – Ross
POC – Toner
Ferris – Heaslip – O’Brien
Reddan – Sexton
Fitzgerald – McFadden – Cave – Trimble
Kearney

Cronin – Court – Ryan/Tuohy – POM – Murray – ROG – Earls

Healy, Best, Ross
Toner, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Darcy, Earls
Fitzgerald, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Court, Ryan, O'Mahony, Reddan, O'Gara, McFadden

Right Rodders, I’ll concede that Trimble has been on better form than Bowe and that Cave has more experience than O’Malley so they’re fair changes.
O’Mahoney’s good form should be rewarded and both himself and O’Brien are flexible enough to cover the backrow so probably no need for the safety net of Ryan on the bench.

Earls not anywhere in the starting fifteen, Rod?

Oh man. Batten down the hatches...

BTW the thing that surprised me most is that I now realise that I want Toner to start

Toners problem was that when he took the ball into contact he took it too high and was tackled and put back over the gainline. Once he sorted that he doesn’t have many glaring weaknesses in his game, he’s obviously very good in the air, he’s got good hands, and when he’s tackled low he’s always got a free arm to look for an offload, which he does well. once he sorted out his carrying he was always going to be a good player.

I read the article on Botha in the paper. Got to agree with Sin that he seems the model pro. I can understand why he was frustrated up here. Signed when we had Matt Williams as coach and then there was a massive overhaul in the management structure.

Fairly sure Geoff has said that he had actually shook on a deal at Ulster (perhaps just in principle) but then when Munster offered more Humph wouldn't match it and told him he could go. If I recall correctly I think Geoff said Humph was less than impressed.

Two sides to every story though and he was a great pro whilst up here. I'm sure Tom Court and Paddy Mac would credit him with a lot and like Stag I have been pleasantly surprised by his fitness if not his form.

I would go along with Rodders team with Ryan in for Toner and I wouldn't mind Earls for Trimble.

Don Alfonso wrote:Earls not anywhere in the starting fifteen, Rod?

Oh man. Batten down the hatches...

No he's close alright Don, but it's about getting the right balance. I'd happily trade him for McFadden to replicate the 'A' partnership discussed above but I like the look of McFadden and Cave. Fitzgerald and Trimble have just nudged ahead as the form wings and the back 3 is well balanced for power, pace and skill.

I'm aware that theres only one Munster man in my starting XV but frankly that shouldn't matter. I believe thats the best team Ireland can put out right now.

The pack picks itself but theres a case for any off Ryan, Toner and Tuohy...DOC and Cullen put your feet up lads and crack open a few beers because you've a few weeks off .

kearney,bowe,cave,mcfadden,fitzgerald,sexton,murray,heaslip,obrien,ferris,oconnell,ryan,ross,best,healy

subs - court,cronin,toner,omahony,reddan,rog,earls

very hard on trimble but there you go

see you later leo,donners,darcy,jennings.

dublin_dave wrote:see you later leo,donners,darcy,jennings.

It seems most of us are in agreement that there's a bit of dead wood there we'd like to see cleared out. I would have no problem seeing Jennings in there but the other guys aren't up to scratch anymore. If Cullen or DOC get in there I'll go bananas ....

I'd go with Dave's team I think, but I'd find room for Tuohy, probably on the bench.

Does Bowe currently deserve to start, though?

im the gaffer i can do what i want : )

Just has a bit more experience than trimble and the centres are a little wet behind the ears at international level so bowe could help. Im sure he will be well up for it after an indifferent year so far. Yes Trimble is playing better but Bowe scrapes in

the other 6 nations teams are going to try some new combinations so think its important that we try some new combinations. Its still a very experienced team.

Correct Stand re Botha.

What surprised me was that David Humph was openly talking about it on the Promanade to a local journo. To be honest it is the only time I have really seen him angry. By nature a very placid even tempered bloke.

dublin_dave wrote:
Just has a bit more experience than trimble and the centres are a little wet behind the ears at international level so bowe could help.

Thats true but Cave and Trimble play together at provincial level and McFadden and Cave have played together for the Wolfhounds. The rest of the backline are all Leinster so you have tried and tested units there.

Trimble is playing a lot better than Bowe right now.

Mickado wrote:My starting team v Wales based on current form

Healy – Best – Ross
POC – Toner
Ferris – Heaslip – O’Brien
Reddan – Sexton
Fitzgerald – McFadden – O’Malley – Bowe
Kearney

Cronin – Court – Ryan – Jennings – Murray – Madigan – Earls

On current form, EOM definitely doesn't deserve a shout at 13. He is well below the likes of Cave, Earls, Spence or even Griffin who outplayed him. His defence is not acceptable at the level he is at now, nevermind international standard.

red_stag wrote:Healy, Best, Ross
Toner, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Darcy, Earls
Fitzgerald, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Court, Ryan, O'Mahony, Reddan, O'Gara, McFadden

+1 - I think barring injury this will be the matchday squad. It is possible that Ryan starts with Toner on the bench, otherwise I think this is definitely a Kidney selection (a settled squad to start the campaign with POM to sub in for his debut, following game might put McF and Earls together depending on how training and first game go)

red_stag wrote:Healy, Best, Ross
Toner, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Darcy, Earls
Fitzgerald, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Court, Ryan, O'Mahony, Reddan, O'Gara, McFadden

You were close to convincing me of Earls getting a shot at 13 until you put D'Arcy alongside him stag

D'Arcy and Earls as a centre partnership will lack creativity, solidity, and any sort of attacking flair. The outside backs would never see the ball! My team for this 6 nations:

Healy - Best - Ross
Ryan - O'Connell
Ferris - Heaslip - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
McFadden - Fitzgerald
Trimble - Earls/Kearney - Bowe

Cronin, Court, O'Callaghan, O'Mahony, Marshall, ROG, Kearney/Earls

The back three that helped destroy England, or Kearney at 15 to provide more safety. Fitz playing the position I think he will be best suited to. Cave unlucky to miss out, though he could easily be the 13 there pushing Fitz to one of the wing spots, with Trimble/Bowe fighting it out for the other.

The O'Malley pick was a bit tongue in cheek lads.

The backs I would pick are

Reddan Sexton
Fitz McFadden Earls Trimble
Kearney

Reddan is more suited to a high tempo game, Murray in good form but it would a tactical pick. McFadden is a 12, and a good one at that*, Earls can do damage from 13 although long term I think he'll find a place on the wing. He can't even be considered for FB because he's not playing there consistently.

*check out his floated pass to Kearney in the build up to Fitzgeralds second try against Bath, PWallacesque!

red_stag wrote:BTW the thing that surprised me most is that I now realise that I want Toner to start

That is a shock I remember not too long ago you and I were debating just how poor a player he was.You thought he was terrible and I thought he was just poor.

He wasn't playing there consistently when he was selected at 15 last year against England either. I just thought we looked very dangerous. Honestly though I think every team listed here has looked different. The front row, back row and half-backs are basically nailed down, as is O'Connell with either Ryan, Toner, O'Callaghan or Tuohy.

The centres and back three can literally be anything from these players (for this 6 nations) - Earls, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Bowe, Trimble, Cave, McFadden. That is our core group of players to choose from, and I believe Jones when he returns will join that group. The likes of Spence etc to challenge over the next few seasons.

He had to be selected there because everyone else was injured. There's no reason for him to play there while Kearney, a proven, , Grandslam,Lions and HC winning fullback is available and in very good form.

Darcy and Earls will be fine. People just want something new to discuss. I will welcone them getting 4 or 5 matches together. How is it that Sexton and Darcy isnt slow for Leinster. They'll do just fine.

Last week Earls was "never a centre" now he is but only if paired with Ian Whitten or Darren Cave

Kearney is nailed on at 15, as sure as night follows day, and should be too. He's the best full back around right now.

red_stag wrote:Last week Earls was "never a centre" now he is but only if paired with Ian Whitten or Darren Cave

Now your getting it stag ...

To me his best position isn't centre which I've been saying from the start - however after watching those Ireland A videos and the one you linked Stag I was impressed with his quick feet and ability to attack no matter what position he plays. If he continues to play centre at Munster, and his distribution improves, then centre may well be his best position. For now at least, it isn't. Maybe he should try adapting to 12 for Munster due to their lack of 12s (and Irelands), and the abundance of 13s in Ireland.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To me his best position isn't centre which I've been saying from the start - however after watching those Ireland A videos and the one you linked Stag I was impressed with his quick feet and ability to attack no matter what position he plays. If he continues to play centre at Munster, and his distribution improves, then centre may well be his best position. For now at least, it isn't. Maybe he should try adapting to 12 for Munster due to their lack of 12s (and Irelands), and the abundance of 13s in Ireland.

And now from someone who has watched Earls at underage level:

...... when I see Earls hit the line with pace at varying angles, it reminds me of the consistent line-breaking of his underage days.

He has bulked up and has that ability to create space where none exists. Despite his pace, he is not a natural winger, no more than he is a full-back.
_ Tony Ward http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-earls-can-become-centre-of-attention-2983593.html

I agree that he is not a natural winger but I don't think he's a natural anything other than a natural broken field runner. No matter what position you put him in you will find flaws in his game.

I think in the back 3 you can be afford to be a bit less orthodox than in the centre. Earls will shine if you get the ball in his hands in space so the question is where on the field you put him to get that. Against certain opposition that can be in the centre but often that is at the back.

However the problem with Earls is when you are on the back foot and have minimal possession. Then you need a player to just do the basics, tackle, organise, take contact, simple offloads and play percentage rugby. In the tight games you need players who can take the right option with the ball in hand and the jury is still out on Earls despite a good desplay against Treviso.

roddersm wrote:I agree that he is not a natural winger but I don't think he's a natural anything other than a natural broken field runner. No matter what position you put him in you will find flaws in his game.

I think in the back 3 you can be afford to be a bit less orthodox than in the centre. Earls will shine if you get the ball in his hands in space so the question is where on the field you put him to get that. Against certain opposition that can be in the centre but often that is at the back.

However the problem with Earls is when you are on the back foot and have minimal possession. Then you need a player to just do the basics, tackle, organise, take contact, simple offloads and play percentage rugby. In the tight games you need players who can take the right option with the ball in hand and the jury is still out on Earls despite a good desplay against Treviso.

Very good summary of Earls' strengths and weaknessess

roddersm wrote:I agree that he is not a natural winger but I don't think he's a natural anything other than a natural broken field runner. No matter what position you put him in you will find flaws in his game.

I think in the back 3 you can be afford to be a bit less orthodox than in the centre. Earls will shine if you get the ball in his hands in space so the question is where on the field you put him to get that. Against certain opposition that can be in the centre but often that is at the back.

However the problem with Earls is when you are on the back foot and have minimal possession. Then you need a player to just do the basics, tackle, organise, take contact, simple offloads and play percentage rugby. In the tight games you need players who can take the right option with the ball in hand and the jury is still out on Earls despite a good desplay against Treviso.

Not too many players around who don't have flaws in their game.

You think that Earls needs the ball in space and Tony Ward thinks he can create space where none exists

Sin é wrote:
Not too many players around who don't have flaws in their game.

You think that Earls needs the ball in space and Tony Ward thinks he can create space where none exists

Every player has flaws that's why you put them in the position best suited to their strengths and least likely to exposed their weakeness.

I'd rather base my opinion on what I've seen of Earls with my own eyes than what Ward thinks, thanks. Earls certainly created some space for Tindall and Tuilagi in the summer where it didn't exist anyway....

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not too many players around who don't have flaws in their game.

You think that Earls needs the ball in space and Tony Ward thinks he can create space where none exists

Every player has flaws that's why you put them in the position best suited to their strengths and least likely to exposed their weakeness.

I'd rather base my opinion on what I've seen of Earls with my own eyes than what Ward thinks, thanks. Earls certainly created some space for Tindall and Tuilagi in the summer where it didn't exist anyway....

So, the main criteria for a 13 then is his defence? Why don't you put Ferris in there. He is a good tackler.

Defence and tackling aren't the same thing. 40% of people know that!

Sin é wrote:
So, the main criteria for a 13 then is his defence?

Nope didn't say that. I'm not going over it again, we've discussed Earls strengths and weaknesses ad nauseum. An article by a Ward, who's paid to reflect the populous oppinion of his readers is irrelevent. I could find you plenty of articles in the BT which will make out IHumph to be the best player in the universe but that doesn't make it true.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So, the main criteria for a 13 then is his defence?

Nope didn't say that. I'm not going over it again, we've discussed Earls strengths and weaknesses ad nauseum. An article by a Ward, who's paid to reflect the populous oppinion of his readers is irrelevent. I could find you plenty of articles in the BT which will make out IHumph to be the best player in the universe but that doesn't make it true.

I don't think claiming that Earls isn't a natural winger is populous. It certainly isn't on this message board or any message board that has a contingent of Leinster & Ulster fans.

Ward can talk an awful lot of Poopie, particularly when it comes to 10s, probably because he has an emotional attachment. Mainly he finds it difficult to find fault with a 10 and he always gives the MOTM to the 10 on the winning side.

However, as a school's coach, he would have watched Earls all the way up (unlike a lot of pundits who don't even see then until they start playing international).

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
So, the main criteria for a 13 then is his defence?

Nope didn't say that. I'm not going over it again, we've discussed Earls strengths and weaknesses ad nauseum. An article by a Ward, who's paid to reflect the populous oppinion of his readers is irrelevent. I could find you plenty of articles in the BT which will make out IHumph to be the best player in the universe but that doesn't make it true.

I don't think claiming that Earls isn't a natural winger is populous. It certainly isn't on this message board or any message board that has a contingent of Leinster & Ulster fans.

Ward can talk an awful lot of Poopie, particularly when it comes to 10s, probably because he has an emotional attachment. Mainly he finds it difficult to find fault with a 10 and he always gives the MOTM to the 10 on the winning side.

However, as a school's coach, he would have watched Earls all the way up (unlike a lot of pundits who don't even see then until they start playing international).

Funny how his opinion is only worth listening to when it backs up your views.If his opinion is worth listening to on Earls it's worth listening to on outhalves.

Sin é wrote:
However, as a school's coach, he would have watched Earls all the way up (unlike a lot of pundits who don't even see then until they start playing international).

We're not talking about school boy or age grade rugby here.

Tony Ward also mentions Earls' defensive glitches. Let's not pretend he's the perfect option. He's not. Yet. Hopefully Les Kiss will be working hard with him to iron out the defensive weaknesses.

Ward also assumes D'arcy will be at 12. As do most pundits. Is it only us fans who don't rate him much anymore? We've been bemoaning his contribution since 2009. He did actually have a couple of good games in the World Cup to be fair. But he generally has nowhere near the impact he used to have in his heyday.

It only matters how a player is performing on the big day - and D'Arcy has not delivered for a long time. As long as he is playing 12, we won't be solving our problems in the centre. He is a weakness that other teams will exploit. All you have to do is look at the talent the other nations have in the centres, to see how bad ours are right now.

Mickado wrote:Defence and tackling aren't the same thing. 40% of people know that!

Bazinga!

Rory_Gallagher wrote: D'Arcy has not delivered for a long time. As long as he is playing 12, we won't be solving our problems in the centre.

Wrapped up in a neat bow.

If Darcy at 12 is the problem, whats the issue with Earls?

As said for the millionth time, his problem is his distribution. Though you and others have led me to believe this can be improved with time at centre. So I think he should continue playing at centre for Munster. Preferably 12 actually, as we have many 13s and not enough 12s.

feckless - les kiss will be quite busy trying to coach the defense and also coach the attack so may have less time to spend time coaching earls on their individual alignment and decision making in defense. to be fair mark tainton our kicking coach has massive pedigree as a backs coach

can anyone remember a country in recent years who have the defence coach and kicking coach coaching the backs for a major competition?

we may pull a master stroke and choose not to use them. maul up jumper garryowen. dark ages stuff

I don't think we can move earls just because he have a few 13s. When Marshall and Hanrahan come through do we move him back to wing or 13? If Deccie is going to persist with him at 13 then give him a run there and have a think about who your best 12 is.