Ireland Rugby World Cup Thread continuation: Flight of the Keith Earls

[Marshes]

So the chat continues without letup as Ireland prepare for the first group game in a couple of days. At the behest of benevolent overlord Carlin, the discussion has be moved to the smoking room.

Group Stages
IRELAND v CANADA at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Saturday 19th September 2015 – Kick Off: 2:30pm - https://www.606v2.com/t60533-ireland-v-canada-19-september

IRELAND v ROMANIA at Wembley Stadium, London
Sunday 27th September 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

IRELAND v ITALY at Olympic Stadium, London
Sunday 4th October 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

FRANCE v IRELAND at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Sunday 11th October 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

QF: TBC

SF: TBC

F: Saturday 31st October - Kick Off: 4:00pm

Open-top bus parade in Dublin with POC and Michael D on stilts holding the Trophy: TBC

Open sores from the last thread include:
- Do Ireland have a plan B or attack? And is Joe holding back all the best for the latter stages?
- Are Ireland on a downward turn following two disappointing warm-up matches against Wales and England?
- Payne or Earls at Outside Centre?
- Is POC over the the hill or the reason for back to back 6N titles?
- Is a semi final the minimum acceptable expectation for the fans?
- Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?
- Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

Have at it.

[SecretFly]

Can we all be friends?



Stop!!! Don't!!! Leave me al...........................!!!! No not the brick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ME-109]

Of course with all the optimism there is a real chance we lose to France and have to beat the ABs in the QF. Could see us not making the semis and not beating a top tier team. Wonder where that would rank.

[GunsGerms]

eirebilly wrote:There is, of course, reasons to be positive about Irelands chances at this RWC but I think that some are seriously over-rating Ireland myself. I would personally be extremely happy if Ireland make the semi finals but I certainly cant see them getting to the final or winning it.


I think with the draw we have if we don't get to the semis we will have failed. Winning a semi would be a massively successful tournament and I cant really see us winning a final.

Id imagine most people see it that way. Realistically France and Argentina are teams we should beat and the success and failure of this WC campaign revolves around that IMO.

[GunsGerms]

Of course with all the optimism there is a real chance we lose to France and have to beat the ABs in the QF. Could see us not making the semis and not beating a top tier team. Wonder where that would rank.

That would obviously be failure if we exit in the quarter finals again.

[ME-109]

Hell if we get to a semi or final all bets are off.

[GunsGerms]

Anyone else getting nervous?

[rodders]

Do Ireland have a plan B or attack? And is Joe holding back all the best for the latter stages?

No and yes

Are Ireland on a downward turn following two disappointing warm-up matches against Wales and England?

No

Payne or Earls at Outside Centre?

Payne and who?

Is POC over the the hill or the reason for back to back 6N titles?

Both

Is a semi final the minimum acceptable expectation for the fans?

No I demand a final

Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?

Yes - he'd have got too much stick from Munster fans if he left out Earls or Zebo so had no choice.

Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

Yes and maybe.

Quick lock the thread.....

[SecretFly]

If we get to the ABs I'd still be happy because I think we'd give a good all out go and being beaten by a team so far up a scale of TOP wouldn't be an almighty let-down to the campaign.

But getting through the pool could again be tricky if we don't pull our collective socks up and stop playing this 'it'll do' crap. It won't do. We have to come in a mood to hit our pool like a storm because if we don't we'll have become very smug indeed thinking we can just turn it on for France and shaft them easily. I wouldn't like smug Ireland.

Strong honest Ireland from the start is what I want. We've waited long enough. All potential cloak and dagger stuff ended - honesty. if we can beat Canada well then do so - don't play around with them in the middle

[Marshes]

Do Ireland have a plan B or attack? And is Joe holding back all the best for the latter stages?

No and yes

Are Ireland on a downward turn following two disappointing warm-up matches against Wales and England?

No

Payne or Earls at Outside Centre?

Payne and who?

Is POC over the the hill or the reason for back to back 6N titles?

Both

Is a semi final the minimum acceptable expectation for the fans?

No I demand a final

Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?

Yes - he'd have got too much stick from Munster fans if he left out Earls or Zebo so had no choice.

Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

Yes and maybe.

Quick lock the thread.....

It's done. Good job people! Lets go home to our families.

[rodders]

 We have to come in a mood to hit our pool like a storm because if we don't we'll have become very smug indeed thinking we can just turn it on for France and shaft them easily.  I wouldn't like smug Ireland.

I don't think there'll be any smugness - every team we've beat we've out worked as well as outsmarted.

Only things can go wrong is if we've under prepared in preseason, we choke, or we just come across a red hot team on the day - be it France, the Pumas or Italy. The first 2 are withing our control and the last one isn't, but statistically its unlikely.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure"

[Marshes]

If we get to the ABs I'd still be happy because I think we'd give a good all out go and being beaten by a team so far up a scale of TOP wouldn't be an almighty let-down to the campaign.

But getting through the pool could again be tricky if we don't pull our collective socks up and stop playing this 'it'll do' crap.  It won't do.  We have to come in a mood to hit our pool like a storm because if we don't we'll have become very smug indeed thinking we can just turn it on for France and shaft them easily.  I wouldn't like smug Ireland.

Strong honest Ireland from the start is what I want.  We've waited long enough.  All potential cloak and dagger stuff ended - honesty.  if we can beat Canada well then do so - don't play around with them in the middle

After the two results we had in the warm-ups I think Ireland need to come out and blow Canada and Romania away ahead of the two crunch games. Going into the Italy game with lingering doubts and being haunted by the shadows of past World Cups is not the preparation we need for France and the rest of the tournament.

I can't remember who said it in the last thread but they were saying we were two defeats short of back to back grand slams (one against England and one against Wales), and that both those were once score games. but so were both victories against France in '14 and '15. Margins very fine indeed. Joe will surely know that momentum and confidence play a big a part in these competitions, maybe in a more telling way over the course of 80 minutes that "Super secret lineout #872".

[eirebilly]

Do Ireland have a plan B or attack? And is Joe holding back all the best for the latter stages?

It would appear that there is no plan B and as for attack? Also no.

Are Ireland on a downward turn following two disappointing warm-up matches against Wales and England?

Yes, Ireland's very limited plans have been found out.

Payne or Earls at Outside Centre?

Earls if you want to attack and win games, Payne if you want to watch boring rugby with Ireland either struggling to get over the line or loosing.

Is POC over the the hill or the reason for back to back 6N titles?

POC is the reason Ireland win anything.

Is a semi final the minimum acceptable expectation for the fans?

I think a semi final appearance would be brilliant.

Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?

Apparently so but I still think Trimble is one of the best Ireland have. Question really should be, was Schmidt right to bring Fitz?

Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

Yes it is and I do like the idea of Henry starting, quality player

[SecretFly]

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure"  

Our deepest fear is that Saint Joe doesn't know which it is!!!

Cause if he don't know, we're in schidt! The players will be asking him all through this week: "How are we doing Joe? Are we menacing? We don't feel it in training but if you tell us we are then that's gospel with us and some of us will be able to sleep without sleeping pills and whiskey???? -------------Joe? ------------------ Joe!!!! talk to us, Joe!!!! ----------------------- Please Joe, for the Love of God!!! - talk to us!"

[rodders]

Actually I do have one major concern - Jonny Sexton.

When he plays well we tend to win, when he has an off day we struggle and I think the Wales game in the 6N was a classic example.

Problem with Jonny is that he is prone to have a below par game every few games in recent seasons.

The question for my mind is can Jonny peak against France and in a SF against England/Australia (and maybe a final) and on his off games can Madigan get us over the line against the other sides?

[GunsGerms]

Thats probably fair enough. Sexton will definitely need to have a massive campaign.

[SecretFly]

The thing I kinda dread in Sexton is the waiting...the waiting for him to kick. The slower he gets the more danger signals light up in my mind that we might be onto a meltdown here if his brain begins to overthink these moments.

I'm not sure if O'Gara had any part to play in camp, formal or otherwise, but I'd have liked him to ...well, leave his job and come in as full time kicking coach with Ireland to be blunt! I think Sexton grew more confidently into his kicking for points game when under the influence of O'Gara.

But if he's not confident there it can impact on all other aspects of his game. That deep thinking aspect of him - bonus and liability.

[eirebilly]

100% agree rodders but I would add one thing, would Schmidt sub him during a game that he is not playing well in?

[SecretFly]

100% agree rodders but I would add one thing, would Schmidt sub him during a game that he is not playing well in?

NO! He'd have to be concussed firs ....................................... oh forget I said anything

[Pete330v2]

- Do Ireland have a plan B or attack? And is Joe holding back all the best for the latter stages?

How would we know as dumb fans, we aren't privvy to what's being coached or what Joe's plans are for the opening or latter stages. I would fully expect we do have a plan B,C and D though.

- Are Ireland on a downward turn following two disappointing warm-up matches against Wales and England?

No, people are reading far to heavily into those games, if they had been 'must wins' you'd have seen different lineups and different gameplans IMO.

- Payne or Earls at Outside Centre?

Payne owns the shirt but is only keeping it warm until Henshaw flourishes post RWC

- Is POC over the the hill or the reason for back to back 6N titles?

Neither comment is true.

- Is a semi final the minimum acceptable expectation for the fans?

This is the correct assumption

- Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?

Nope but I believe we'll see Angry Andrew later on in the RWC after someone falls to a mystery injury.

- Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

I think Henderson is a pacey wrecking ball who would be better utilised in a 6 shirt. Other than that we do have great backrow options.

[Notch]

Of course with all the optimism there is a real chance we lose to France and have to beat the ABs in the QF. Could see us not making the semis and not beating a top tier team. Wonder where that would rank.

That would obviously be failure if we exit in the quarter finals again.

Going home having only beaten Canada, Romania and Italy would obviously rank as a major disappointment for everyone. I think especially within the Ireland set-up. The Ireland players now think they have the ability to compete with any team in the world and that they can be serious contenders at this tournament. Last time out we beat Australia in the SH, only for it to come crashing own in the quarters, and that has certainly been spoken of by all the players I've heard interviewed as an example of us under-performing because they genuinely believed we could have beaten Wales and went deep into the tournament. I think that the players and coaches hold themselves to even higher standards than the fans do. It has to be semi-finals at least or no-one will be particularly happy. That will in no way be easy but it is very achievable.

[Notch]

- Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

I think Henderson is a pacey wrecking ball who would be better utilised in a 6 shirt. Other than that we do have great backrow options.

Tend to agree. Think the first choice back row of O'Mahony, O'Brien and Heaslip consists of the best three back rowers in isolation. The question is whether thats the best balance. Personally think Henderson has to play, especially against the brute physicality of France, but am tending towards seeing him as a lock. Will be fascinating to see the selections up front in the first two games.

[GunsGerms]

- Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?

Nope but I believe we'll see Angry Andrew later on in the RWC after someone falls to a mystery injury.

Agree with your other comments. On this I reckon you are right too. It will be like in escape to victory when they broke the Irish guys arm so someone else could play instead.

[SecretFly]

[

- Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?

Nope but I believe we'll see Angry Andrew later on in the RWC after someone falls to a mystery injury.

Pre-planned by Joe. Get Trimble good and mad. Then rudely I'm afraid tell Bowe he's not in good enough form, command Bowe to feign injury, call up angry Trimble, try to talk to a non-communicative Trimble when he gets off the plane, leave him on his own for the night.... all is right the next morning with Trimble in top form and happy - just as Joe planned.

Oh he's a divil, is Joe.

[eirebilly]

I feel that Ireland must start Earls at 13 for the matches against Canada and Romania to get some attacking fluidity. The start Payne against Italy so that he proves again that he is out of his depth as an attacking 13 at International level, leaving Schmidt forced to pick Earls against France. I feel its the only way Ireland will win their group.

Waiting for Notch explosion

[SecretFly]

But will Payne lose us the Italian game?

And is Canada and Romania a test that proves Earls is 13 and Payne, against Italy, ain't?

I just hope Earls gets a crack anywhere and proves he's a cog that's needed - if he proves that, we'll be excited because when he shines, he shines.

[eirebilly]

Payne will not lose the Italian match but he will show that he is incapable of playing the attacking 13 role. Earls has already proven his worth as an attacking player at International level against big sides (yes at 13 as well as wing).

[rodders]

Payne will not lose the Italian match but he will show that he is incapable of playing the attacking 13 role. Earls has already proven his worth as an attacking player at International level against big sides (yes at 13 as well as wing).

Outrageous comment!

Payne has been one of our best and consistent player. Defensively hes been excellent and has the highest meters gained out of any of our backs.

Earls has shown he can run in a try with no one in front of him against the wales 3rd team!

[Notch]

It's interesting that Gordon D'Arcy highlights Henshaw and Payne as the best combination and Payne as one of the few players with that offloading ability we want to see developed across the whole team. D'Arcys point is that if you don't play that way at youth level, and you don't play that way at schools level, and you don't play that way at senior level and so on... it's hard to implement an offloading game at international level. It's not only that certain players lack the skill-set its that players are attuned to receiving the ball, to expecting and anticipating the offload. In our game against Scarlets at the weekend, one absolutely superb McCloskey offload comes to mind which could have created a try- had Luke Marshall better anticipated it and caught the ball. When Payne started at 13 for Ulster he offloaded a lot but we weren't well coached to receive it. A lot of balls hitting the ground. Since coming into the Ireland team he's changed his game to a direct running style. We are now seeing that changing again in these warm-ups, with him being used increasingly on the outside arc. This could be a fruitful approach if we get players running good angles off him; he'll get the ball to them. He is at heart a creative playmaker, those skills can be utilised better. If you want to read a good analysis of why Ireland don't use the offload (and why New Zealand are so effective when they do) read D'Arcys column in the Irish Times. I've been impressed with him as a pundit and his columns are consistently insightful.

Whatever people think about specific players, it wouldn't make sense to pick a player for the first two games and then drop him for the Italy match. I feel that we should pick our strongest team for Canada and then rotate a bit for Romania, before making a few tweaks to that strongest team based on the first few games. Appreciate you might be commenting with your tongue in your cheek, but it's a bizarre argument. Suspect that Payne and Earls will get a game each, and Payne will be first choice from Italy onwards.

[GunsGerms]

Payne will not lose the Italian match but he will show that he is incapable of playing the attacking 13 role. Earls has already proven his worth as an attacking player at International level against big sides (yes at 13 as well as wing).

Outrageous comment!

Payne has been one of our best and consistent player. Defensively hes been excellent and has the highest meters gained out of any of our backs.

Earls has shown he can run in a try with no one in front of him against the wales 3rd team!

I agree with both. Payne has earned his place in the team. I have always liked Earls too as I feel he is probably our best back at making breaks and spotting gaps. Both players have weakness and strengths. At the moment Payne is probably a better option at 13.

[eirebilly]

rodders, Payne has not attacked at all. The only attacking run I saw from him was to run sideways when Ireland had an overlap and kill the overlap and possible break.

He does not pass so it stands to reason that he makes meters. He does not bring other players into the match.

Defensively he has been solid but he also does not organise the defensive lines which is a pretty important job for a 13, Earls does this.

Payne to me, is wasted at 13 as there are better options (Earls and Henshaw) and should actually go to 15 where I think that he will be a massive improvement on Rob Kearney. His defensive abilities will be called into action there and I have more confidence in Payne's last man tackling ability that Kearney.

[GunsGerms]

rodders, Payne has not attacked at all. The only attacking run I saw from him was to run sideways when Ireland had an overlap and kill the overlap and possible break.

He does not pass so it stands to reason that he makes meters. He does not bring other players into the match.

Defensively he has been solid but he also does not organise the defensive lines which is a pretty important job for a 13, Earls does this.

Payne to me, is wasted at 13 as there are better options (Earls and Henshaw) and should actually go to 15 where I think that he will be a massive improvement on Rob Kearney. His defensive abilities will be called into action there and I have more confidence in Payne's last man tackling ability that Kearney.

He has done as much attacking as everyone else except Kearney who leads the field in defenders beaten and yards gained.

Other Kearney is rock solid at 15. No one has been at his level since he broke into the team and many have tried.

[SecretFly]

God.... offloading isn't particle physics.  It really isn't.  It's simply choosing to cast the ball away from your person before you make contact or on contact and have the drilled support there to make it count.  

The problem for us is that we were once a 2nd Ranked team in the world a short time ago and we were still talking about professional players, who play week in and week out, many of them involved in high grade European contest over the years, either not being allowed to offload or not being able to offload.

It is pathetic really.   Whether it's Joe just wanting a distinct plan, Joe pretending we can't offload, our own silly observational perceptions that we're not seeing enough of it...I don't care what the truth is - it's certainly not that these highly trained physical specimens can't offload a ball accurately and when needed to give them space and attack options.  

If Scotland can do it and make it look quite smooth then our players certainly can.... IF it was on the agenda.  It obviously, for reasons best know to Joe and the Media intelligencia, not on the agenda for now.

But Gordon pretending only Payne can do it well because he did it at school?.....  Jesus.

Not attacking you, Notch...just the assumptions in Gordon's comments that you posted.

[eirebilly]

Kearney is a very good 15 and when on form is one of the best Ireland have had. I just have serious question marks over his one on one last man tackling. He just is not that good at it, Payne is which is why I would prefer Payne to play 15 because I believe Ireland will come under some pressure there and they need a very solid defender at 15.

[SecretFly]

Kearney is rock solid at 15. No one has been at his level since he broke into the team and many have tried.

Unfortunately, he hasn't been at his own level for some time now either. I hope this WC see him return to his best levels. Bowe and R.Kearney are for me the two guys that need biggest improvement overall - and if it came, they are central enough to have a big impact in making us look much more potent than we've perhaps been in even two years.

[Notch]

Not attacking you, Notch...just the assumptions in Gordon's comments that you posted.

Fair comments, and no-one more than I wants to see offloading out of contact as a skill set become a common and valued part of the repertoire of any Irish national team. But I wouldn't dismiss D'Arcys point entirely- the full article can be read here- in that this is something that needs to change in the way players are coached at every level and its not just a case of Schmidt releasing the handbrake and saying 'Right, have at it'. We've not offloaded well in international rugby under any coach that I can remember. There are certainly reasons for it. I think there is a balance between what he is saying and what you are saying, in that coaches and players at professional level can't take all the blame for an entire rugby culture but there is something to be said for not just accepting 'we can't do that'.

It's certainly revealing that D'Arcy, a long-term veteran of international rugby, simply says

Should Ireland coach an offloading policy at this World Cup? I don’t think you can. You are either intuitively good at it or not. I never was, so I didn’t do it.

He talks about the coaches he had bringing his game onto a new level, but when it comes to offloading he simply says I never was good at it, so I never did it. I wonder about how much we encourage players to work on this even after they've made it to professional level.

Are you intuitively good at it or not? We accept we can coach players to be better at every single other aspect of the game.

[Notch]

My impression of Schmidt is of a coach who is pragmatic above all else. When constructing a game plan, he is hardly likely to make the area of greatest weakness in the skill set the main focus. Say speculation Schmidt will one day coach the All Blacks comes true. You are not going to be seeing them play like Ireland.

[eirebilly]

We've not offloaded well in international rugby under any coach that I can remember.

Under EOS, Ireland had one of the best backlines in rugby, he got Ireland playing some wonderful offloading moves. Even under Kidney, Ireland had decent backline play. This has all dried up under Schmidt and it confuses me immensely as Leinster had some incredible backline moves.
The players have that ability but I still firmly believe that the wrong players are playing in the wrong positions. Its why I would love to see Earls at 13 (or Henshaw with Cave at 12) and Payne at 15.

[GunsGerms]

My impression of Schmidt is of a coach who is pragmatic above all else. When constructing a game plan, he is hardly likely to make the area of greatest weakness in the skill set the main focus. Say speculation Schmidt will one day coach the All Blacks comes true. You are not going to be seeing them play like Ireland.

Leinster offloaded a lot under him. He has put together a game plan that he thinks will bring us success at the WC. That is all.

[GunsGerms]

We've not offloaded well in international rugby under any coach that I can remember.

Under EOS, Ireland had one of the best backlines in rugby, he got Ireland playing some wonderful offloading moves. Even under Kidney, Ireland had decent backline play. This has all dried up under Schmidt and it confuses me immensely as Leinster had some incredible backline moves.
The players have that ability but I still firmly believe that the wrong players are playing in the wrong positions. Its why I would love to see Earls at 13 (or Henshaw with Cave at 12) and Payne at 15.

Hahahahahahahah.

[Notch]

We've not offloaded well in international rugby under any coach that I can remember.

Under EOS, Ireland had one of the best backlines in rugby, he got Ireland playing some wonderful offloading moves. Even under Kidney, Ireland had decent backline play. This has all dried up under Schmidt and it confuses me immensely as Leinster had some incredible backline moves.
The players have that ability but I still firmly believe that the wrong players are playing in the wrong positions. Its why I would love to see Earls at 13 (or Henshaw with Cave at 12) and Payne at 15.

You're talking about back line moves now, when I'm specifically talking about offloading the ball out of contact. These are separate but related things.

[eirebilly]

We've not offloaded well in international rugby under any coach that I can remember.

Under EOS, Ireland had one of the best backlines in rugby, he got Ireland playing some wonderful offloading moves. Even under Kidney, Ireland had decent backline play. This has all dried up under Schmidt and it confuses me immensely as Leinster had some incredible backline moves.
The players have that ability but I still firmly believe that the wrong players are playing in the wrong positions. Its why I would love to see Earls at 13 (or Henshaw with Cave at 12) and Payne at 15.

You're talking about back line moves now, when I'm talking about offloading the ball out of contact.

Am, that's also a part of backline moves if I am not mistaken. Part of EOS's training schedule was upper body strength for offloading out of contact. Remember just how good BOD got under EOS and just how much stronger he became?

Offloading is a major part of backline moves...

[asoreleftshoulder]

Kearney is a very good 15 and when on form is one of the best Ireland have had. I just have serious question marks over his one on one last man tackling. He just is not that good at it, Payne is which is why I would prefer Payne to play 15 because I believe Ireland will come under some pressure there and they need a very solid defender at 15.

Tackling for a rugby fullback is like shot stopping for a goalie in Gaelic football,a nice skill to have but not essential.More worrying is he just hasn't been in great form recently but I don't see Schmidt moving Payne at this stage he hasn't played there for Ireland yet so with Zebo and Madigan I think we have our cover and Jones will be called up if anything major happens.

[Notch]

Yes, it can be a part of back line moves but I'm saying that I'm talking about the specific act of offloading the rugby ball out of contact which I don't think Ireland under EOS did as much as other teams. I remember with great fondness some of the back line play of that era; I'm just pointing out the offload wasn't the weapon for us then or now it is/was for other international teams.

[eirebilly]

Kearney is a very good 15 and when on form is one of the best Ireland have had. I just have serious question marks over his one on one last man tackling. He just is not that good at it, Payne is which is why I would prefer Payne to play 15 because I believe Ireland will come under some pressure there and they need a very solid defender at 15.

Tackling for a rugby fullback is like shot stopping for a goalie in Gaelic football,a nice skill to have but not essential.More worrying is he just hasn't been in great form recently but I don't see Schmidt moving Payne at this stage he hasn't played there for Ireland yet so with Zebo and Madigan I think we have our cover and Jones will be called up if anything major happens.

I think last man defence is very important myself. I think Schmidt realises this as well which is why he is giving Zebo more and more game time at 15. I am not saying that Schmidt will put Payne at 15, I am saying that I would like to have Payne at 15.

[GunsGerms]

No Schmidt is giving Zebo time at 15 because he needs a backup plan for every position. Lets not pretend defense if Zebo's strength either.

[eirebilly]

Yes, it can be a part of back line moves but I'm saying that I'm talking about the specific act of offloading the rugby ball out of contact which I don't think Ireland under EOS did as much as other teams. I remember with great fondness some of the back line play of that era; I'm just pointing out the offload wasn't the weapon for us then or now it is/was for other international teams.

Well I remember it totally different then as under EOS, Ireland offloaded the ball more in contact than I had seen for along time. Its why I highlighted the training scheme from EOS to build the upper body strength of his backs. Kidney did the same thing, its simply dried up under Schmidt and I don't believe that it has anything to do with the players capability in that regard.

[eirebilly]

Zebo is an excellent defender GunsGerms, why do you think he is not?

[GunsGerms]

Zebo is an excellent defender GunsGerms, why do you think he is not?

He wasnt excellent v England. Two of the tries came through him.

[eirebilly]

Zebo is an excellent defender GunsGerms, why do you think he is not?

He wasnt excellent v England. Two of the tries came through him.

One try was a perfectly executed kick and chase that I believe would have beaten 99 out 100 15's so I do not blame him for that. The only other one I can think of was when May brushed through Bowe so not his fault there either...

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