How would Celtic and Rangers do in the Prem?

by Guest Wed 16 Mar 2011, 8:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

This debate has been going around for ages. But whats your thoughts on this?
Will they challenge for the title or a European slot, or will they struggle?
Over to you people........

by **hampo17** Tue 14 Feb 2012, 4:28 pm

Why should Celtic and Rangers start in the EPL though? You want to join the English leagues, then get in the Unibond North and earn it.

Would never be able to compete, look at it now there are seven teams trying to get the four CL spots, Celtic and Rangers would be a midtable club at best, as Truss said earlier they would be like Everton.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 14 Feb 2012, 4:44 pm

The problem is their wage structure is poor compared to other teams in the premiership...

So while they may have a good first year...other teams would siphon off their best players that stand out !!!!

Haven't got the money to compete..

by MIG Tue 14 Feb 2012, 4:56 pm

I don't think they would be like Everton. I think if Everton were to go in the SPL they would win it fairly comfortably. Rangers and Celtic would be Championship level imo. In fact, overall, the Championship is probably a better standard than the SPL.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 14 Feb 2012, 4:57 pm

Agreed the top two excepted......Some of them get 6,000....

That's Division 2 attendances...

by Doon the Water Tue 14 Feb 2012, 5:01 pm

Mig
Good idea to turn it around and say which English teams would top the SPL.

Probably 5 out of the top 6.
Where are Norwich 7th 8th. I would not expect them to top the SPL.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 14 Feb 2012, 5:16 pm

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.....

Everton have beaten Chelsea and Man City at home already this season...

Sure Celtic and rangers would really make them quiver..

SAMARAS????????????? dear oh dear..

by mystiroakey Tue 14 Feb 2012, 5:20 pm

Doon the Water wrote:Mig
Good idea to turn it around and say which English teams would top the SPL.

Probably 5 out of the top 6.
Where are Norwich 7th 8th. I would not expect them to top the SPL.

not sure dude. in all honesty bar rangers abd celtic i cant even see the SPL teams surviving in the championship

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 14 Feb 2012, 5:24 pm

Took nearly 70 minutes for City to break Everton down at home and we lost away...

Does anyone really see Celtic and rangers breaking teams like everton and sunderland down and beating them more than once in a whole SPL season...I can't..

by Ent Tue 14 Feb 2012, 5:33 pm

Again we have Celtic fans banging on about money, when others do more with less.

Your outgoings will increase massively!

The likes of everton, Newcastle etc have big attendances and this holy grail of tv money but still can't sign the big names or challenge for trophies.

You still have the long away trips, playing against teams with bug crowds, a hard game every week, no momentum from winning every week and every Tom dick an Harry interested in the same players - try attracting them to Glasgow over London.

Everyone knows Celtic can (and have) competed in one off games, but an entire league season is very different and the money wouldn't guarantee success or else every team in the pl would be amazing.

by Alessandro Ciambella Tue 14 Feb 2012, 5:38 pm

Ent wrote:Again we have Celtic fans banging on about money, when others do more with less.

Your outgoings will increase massively!

The likes of everton, Newcastle etc have big attendances and this holy grail of tv money but still can't sign the big names or challenge for trophies.

You still have the long away trips, playing against teams with bug crowds, a hard game every week, no momentum from winning every week and every Tom dick an Harry interested in the same players - try attracting them to Glasgow over London.

Everyone knows Celtic can (and have) competed in one off games, but an entire league season is very different and the money wouldn't guarantee success or else every team in the pl would be amazing.

I could not have said that any better myself! thumbsup

by Alessandro Ciambella Tue 14 Feb 2012, 5:44 pm

I suppose the main attraction to Glasgow would be... High rise flats and buckfast! Laugh

On a serious note, the SPL teams rely on selling players to both old firm clubs to survive. Now Rangers have gone, that's half of the spending power gone from the league. I fear for the rest if the league now.

I see it becoming a semi pro league and Celtic having to join a north Atlantic league with the big teams from Scandinavia.

by dublfcynwa Tue 14 Feb 2012, 6:09 pm

They would both struggle to get out of the championship. Facht.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 14 Feb 2012, 6:18 pm

Shawcross is at Stoke because that is his level which is the same level as Celtic, as for your leg breaker jibe, that happened once and i've never seen a player so physically upset at injuring an opponent, there was no ill intent.

You try and big up your players by using tabloid gossip, United to my knowledge and I follow there transfer dealings and targets very closely have never been interested in Forrest and I see no reason why they would be, our wide positions are sorted with Valencia, Park, Nani and Young, all better players than him.

Lets consider Everton, do you honestly believe Celtic have a squad that comes close to what they have and that has been built with very little expenditure, they have sold in order to buy, the same with Newcastle recently. You wouldn't be able to compete against them let alone the better teams.

by Doon the Water Tue 14 Feb 2012, 6:52 pm

Yogi Hughes and John Collins appointed as Livingstone management team.
Good choice, Livingstone could and should be a top six team in Scotland.

by Kay Fabe Tue 14 Feb 2012, 7:18 pm

If we talk about clubs from England coming to the SPL and winning it, if they came to Scotland they'd be more than welcome to give it a go however they would also have to live with the harsh realities that come with playing in the SPL, the team that finish 20th in the EPL get 10 times as much in TV money as the winners of the SPL so if a team like Liverpool came up here, there would be no £40-100k per week players, they'd be unable to sustain that level of spending, there would be no £20m+ signings like Luis Suarez, even Charlie Adam would be an unrealistic outlay

If the top 6 EPL clubs came to the SPL with their current revenue and squads I'd say they would all more than likely win the title however if they had to work under the same financial constraints as Celtic then I'd be far more confident that my club would succeed.

People think money is an easy excuse but it's a basic fundimental when conversing with many fans of Premiership clubs, some have been that drowned in the Premiership cash cow that they've no concept of how drastic the cash difference is

I'm not a fan of the Premiership, I used to be, for me in the 90's it was a different beast, it just seemed better, especially the first 5/6 years of it, far to much money has been put into it though, and more money is going out of the game via players and agents, I've no doubt every fan of an EPL club are happy and proud to be in it and that's fair enough, I've no issue with that, but the league just isn't for me and I've got no desire to see my club become apart of it, I'm more interested in making the SPL as viable and attractive a prospect as possible

It will never make as much money as the EPL, Scottish Football never has throughout the years, Celtic strikers alone are testimony to that, Macari to Man U then Dalglish to Liverpool, Nicholas to Arsenal, McClair to Man Utd, Van Hooijdonk to Forest and Viduka to Leeds, the SPL is abysmal though from a visual prespective, 1 up 1 down, no play offs, play half the clubs 4 times a season and the other half 3 times, it's depressing to watch at times unless it's your own club

by Kay Fabe Tue 14 Feb 2012, 7:26 pm

Doon the Water wrote:Yogi Hughes and John Collins appointed as Livingstone management team.
Good choice, Livingstone could and should be a top six team in Scotland.

Shameful decision to sack Gary Bollan though, the guy was working miricles there, the excuse they gave was a shocker

by johnson2 Tue 14 Feb 2012, 7:39 pm

the-gaffer wrote:In 2006 many people believed that Ronaldinho was the best player in the World

This is what he said about Henrik Larsson
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Football%3A+Ronnie%3A+Barca+pal+Larsson+is+my+idol%3B+Exclusive.-a0144951096

My my, a player praising his colleague. Whatever next.

by Kay Fabe Tue 14 Feb 2012, 7:44 pm

johnson2 wrote:
the-gaffer wrote:In 2006 many people believed that Ronaldinho was the best player in the World

This is what he said about Henrik Larsson
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Football%3A+Ronnie%3A+Barca+pal+Larsson+is+my+idol%3B+Exclusive.-a0144951096

My my, a player praising his colleague. Whatever next.

I think Ronaldinho knows a bit more about the qualities of a footballer than you, I'm. Not surprised you're choosing to detract from it though, I expected nothing less, infact I'm done with you and I'm doing what I should have done after your first display of ignorance!

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 14 Feb 2012, 7:46 pm

What most of us have been thinking of you to be honest Gaffer.

by Kay Fabe Tue 14 Feb 2012, 8:54 pm

Block me then, when someone talks nonsense with added ignorance and arrogance I'll reply with the contempt it deserves Ghosty

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 14 Feb 2012, 9:07 pm

Expect it in return then because most of what you've said thus far is blind rose tinted bias, you seem unable to process that not everyone thinks the same as you.

by Dass Tue 14 Feb 2012, 10:12 pm

I'm Scottish and no fan of either side of the Old Firm. I have to agree though with most of what Gaffer has said, though both sides of this argument have used tenuous one of games in the ECL when as far as I'm concerned it's a pretty useless barometer for judging a clubs success over a season in a league format.

Rangers and Celtic would do quite well in the EPL if they could survive the initial transition, before getting themselves on a stable footing regards money. After that I'd be confident of them managing to be a top 10 team but anything above that they'd have to scrap it out tooth and nail for. There's certainly the possibility if both clubs are subsequently well run that they could garner a squad capable of challenging for those top European slots but it wouldn't be easy. Then again both clubs with more money could easily be badly run, Rangers current state by overreaching is case in point and Celtic are not exempt from being poorly run in the past either, more money is not a cure to fix this but could rather enhance the problem.

The Larsson debate is silly, the guy was obviously class not just as a goalscorer but for his overall play. Someone mentioned Barcelona were hardly taking a risk on him due to his free transfer status, that can be said of any free agent but how many do you see Barcelona actually pick up let alone one who is 33. The to subsequently be picked up by Man Utd later on shows the man was highly rated in footballing circles even in his twilight years.

The turn of the century Rangers and Celtic teams were very good in terms of squads and in a EPL type league would have risen their game another notch. Best in Britain outside Man Utd I'm not so sure but very good teams nonetheless, I'd say they would have finished somewhere between 5-9 in that period personally, though I don't see them getting much higher than that.

Any comparison between the two leagues has to be done with the knowledge that the financial constructs each league brings. You can't just say any EPL side would win the SPL without factoring in reduced finances and then base it on how the club would generate income in such a environment and vice versa for the Ugly Sisters.

by Kay Fabe Tue 14 Feb 2012, 10:41 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Expect it in return then because most of what you've said thus far is blind rose tinted bias, you seem unable to process that not everyone thinks the same as you.

"Blind rose tinted bias"

As for Celtic's importance, that's simple, in the grand scheme of World Football they don't have any, I've never argued any differently however what I do and always will argue for is that if we had a level playing field then it would be a different story,

What I said in this very thread, hardly the words of a fan blinded by his rose tinted specs is it?

I'm unsure whether you fail to grasp basic logic in the disucussion or your just trying to be intentionally antagonistic by constantly ignoring the basics of the conversation, whatever it is though we're never going to be on the same page so carrying on any form of discussion seems fruitless and pointless

by Ent Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:29 am

Coming to the epl wouldn't make it a level playing field though, you'd be based in Glasgow getting the local support and money but benefitting from Moët generated from another countries league system.

Really there are a lot of parameters to this and there's only so far you can go without making it irrelevant.

by mystiroakey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 3:54 am

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:
Hobo wrote:I actually think that they would struggle in the championship

Pointless comment Rangers held their own for 180 minutes against Man Utd

my team crystal palace beat em.

your point is?

by Doon the Water Wed 15 Feb 2012, 9:22 am

Well said Dass...best comments so far.
The trouble with the Little Englanders is that they live in an EPL bubble and the minute someone posts a comment from outside the bubble they panic and resort to some comments that ...to put it politely...are not well structured.

It was interesting to see that most of the Scottish pro Larsson comments came from non Celtic supporters.
You could see that happening in England ......Not.

by Kingshu Wed 15 Feb 2012, 9:24 am

Dass wrote:I'm Scottish and no fan of either side of the Old Firm. I have to agree though with most of what Gaffer has said, though both sides of this argument have used tenuous one of games in the ECL when as far as I'm concerned it's a pretty useless barometer for judging a clubs success over a season in a league format.

Rangers and Celtic would do quite well in the EPL if they could survive the initial transition, before getting themselves on a stable footing regards money. After that I'd be confident of them managing to be a top 10 team but anything above that they'd have to scrap it out tooth and nail for. There's certainly the possibility if both clubs are subsequently well run that they could garner a squad capable of challenging for those top European slots but it wouldn't be easy. Then again both clubs with more money could easily be badly run, Rangers current state by overreaching is case in point and Celtic are not exempt from being poorly run in the past either, more money is not a cure to fix this but could rather enhance the problem.

The Larsson debate is silly, the guy was obviously class not just as a goalscorer but for his overall play. Someone mentioned Barcelona were hardly taking a risk on him due to his free transfer status, that can be said of any free agent but how many do you see Barcelona actually pick up let alone one who is 33. The to subsequently be picked up by Man Utd later on shows the man was highly rated in footballing circles even in his twilight years.

The turn of the century Rangers and Celtic teams were very good in terms of squads and in a EPL type league would have risen their game another notch. Best in Britain outside Man Utd I'm not so sure but very good teams nonetheless, I'd say they would have finished somewhere between 5-9 in that period personally, though I don't see them getting much higher than that.

Any comparison between the two leagues has to be done with the knowledge that the financial constructs each league brings. You can't just say any EPL side would win the SPL without factoring in reduced finances and then base it on how the club would generate income in such a environment and vice versa for the Ugly Sisters.

+1

Best post on this subject

However I believe that while you say top 10 team, that they have the supporter numbers to potentionally push beyond that, but it would take a number of years.

by mystiroakey Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:00 am

Doon the Water wrote:Well said Dass...best comments so far.
The trouble with the Little Englanders is that they live in an EPL bubble and the minute someone posts a comment from outside the bubble they panic and resort to some comments that ...to put it politely...are not well structured.

It was interesting to see that most of the Scottish pro Larsson comments came from non Celtic supporters.
You could see that happening in England ......Not.

your telling me that english fans dont respect the skills of players from other clubs?

or have i missinterpretted you, if i havent then maybe its you with the problem

by TopHat24/7 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:07 am

the-gaffer wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
the-gaffer wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
the-gaffer wrote:
Thomond wrote:The best LOI players are better than the Scottish fellas I would think. Shamrock Rovers would give Celtic a very good game and probably beat them. Let's remember who got to the Europa League group stages on merit.

In fairness, his comment was no more ridiculous than your statement that the OF teams of '98-'02 were as good if not better than anything in the EPL at the same time. United won the TREBLE for god's sake!! When was the last time Celtic or Rangers won anything outside their lopsided domestic competitions?? English sides have reached more Champions League finals in the last 15 yrs than Scottish sides have even got out the group stages!

The Celtic team between 2000 and 2004 would have been more than a match for any English club and the two years before it Rangers had a team that would have matched anyone other than United

Those are the kind of things that make me believe that Celtic could easily have lived with the best in the premiership during Martin O'Neills time at Celtic while Larsson was there

You talk such incredible tosh it's unbelievable, you're blinded by your own ignorance. I'll ask again and make it clearer, if they were so good, WHY DIDN'T THEY WIN ANYTHING??????

The Champions League gives us the perfect barometer of how the top clubs perform and achieve, so let's have a look:

97/98
Celtic - no show
Rangers - knocked out in qualifiers
Best EPL club - Man Utd - knocked out in QF on away goals

98/99
Celtic - knocked out in qualifiers
Rangers - no show
Best EPL club - Man Utd - CHAMPIONS

99/00
Celtic - no show
Rangers - knocked out in first group stage
Best EPL club - Man Utd & Chelsea - both knocked out in QF

00/01
Celtic - no show
Rangers - knocked out in first group stage
Best EPL club - Leeds - knocked out in SF (Mancheser & Arsenal made QF)

01/02
Celtic - knocked out in first group stage
Rangers - knocked out in qualfiers
Best EPL club - Man Utd - knocked out in SF on away goals

02/03
Celtic - knocked out in qualifiers
Rangers - no show
Best EPL club - Man Utd - knocked out in QF

03/04
Celtic - knocked out in group stage
Rangers - knocked out in group stage (NB: United topped the group on 15 points, Rangers took the wooden spoon on 4 points)
Best EPL club - Chelsea - knocked out in SF

04/05
Celtic - knocked out in group stage
Rangers - knocked out in qualifiers
Best EPL club - Liverpool - CHAMPIONS

So in short, over the time period you specified, the OF were not even competitive on any level with the EPL or any of the top European leagues!!

An interesting stat from the recent Deloitte Football survey which covers the most recent 5 seasons and UEFA/Europa as well as Champs League looks at how many Quarter-Finalists each country has provided:

England - 20
Spain - 14
Germany - 13
Italy - 7
Portugal - 7
Holland - 5
France - 4
Ukraine - 4
Russia - 3
Belgium - 1
Scotland - 1
Turkey - 1

So there you have it. In your specified 'golden period' the OF were rubbish and in the past 5 years they are on a par with the Belgian and Turkish leagues.

Celtic didn't qualify for the Champions League until 2001 so all your 'no shows' beforehand are pretty pointless since they never had the opportunity to compete in it, also , it shows a complete ignorance to the recent history pre 97/98, Celtic due to incredibly poor management neatly went under in 1994, Rangers were spending money like it was goi ng out of fashion, Fergus McCann saved the club and had a five year plan, in the fourth year we won the league 97/98 but failed in the Qualifier t(here was turmoil at the club though since the first gut to win the league in 9 years was booted out) Rangers in the summer of 98 spent £36m and assembled a squad that would have been a match for any team in the UK (although utd were a step up)

Celtic didn't qualify from the groups in 2001 but I think we were the first to go out on 9 points, we would have qualified though if we were cheated on a last minute penalty in the Stadio Del Alpi, look it up, we then thanks to luck of the Uefa Cup draw got Valencia, the team who contested the previous two seasons Champions League finals, they were a top team, we eventually lost on penalties but played them off the pitch at Celtic Park

In 2002 our naivety shown threw when Basel knocked us out of the qualifier on away goals, they weren't mugs though and if I remember right gave both Liverpool and Utd a game of it in the CL, finishing above liverpool in the first group stages knocking them out and the games with utd were tight that season, we did however manage to make the Uefa Cup final beating 'top 6' EPL clubs on the way, Blackburn filled with ex Man Utd players and Liverpool were both taken care of away from home

In 2003/04 is a real sickerner, we were a half decent goalkeeper away from having a really good team, wee destroyed Lyon and Anderlecht at Celtic Parl and were beating Bayern and Lyon in the away games late on when idiotic goalkeeping errors from Magnus Hedman cost us big time, still, after we got knocked out of it we still went and put Barcelona out of the Uefa Cup, Frank Rikjaard had just taken over and they were on a 20 game winning run when we beat them

So yes, I do feel vindicated in my belief that between 2000 and 2004 Celtic were equals to anyone in the Premiership, and Rangers team from 98-2000 would have been too for most clubs, I do concede that the 98/99 Utd team were in a league of their own though

This is just getting embarrassing now. You have NOTHING to support your idle conjecture and STILL haven't answered the SIMPLE question I asked.

You say 98-00 Rangers were one of the top sides in the UK yet in 97/98 they couldn't get passed the qualifiers (beaten by the mighty Gothenburg) whilst Newcastle at least got to the group stages and United the QF. In 98/99 they couldn't even get in the competition (presdumably as they couldn't even win their own league), Celtic who did got knocked out in the qualifiers. United WON IT. In 99/00 Rangers were back in and FINALLY got through the qualifiers only to be knocked out in the groups. EPL had TWO TEAMS get through first and second group stages into the QFs.

If you refuse to open your eyes to the reality of the Champions League, how about we look at the the poor man's Europoean cup where presumably the OF were better represented. In 97/98 Rangers and Celtic were BOTH knocked out in the first round, Celtic by an EPL side - Liverpool. In 98/99 Celtic were knocked out in the second round, Rangers in the third. In 99/00 Celtic were knocked out in the second round whereas Leeds got to the SF and Arsenal the Final (losing on penalties).

In your 2000 to 2004 'Celtic glory period' they were knocked out at the group stages 3 times and the qualifiers the other time. In the same time the EPL produced at least 3 semi-finalists, 3 quarter finalists and 1 Champion side. There may have been more but I can't be bothered to research beyond what I've already presented above.

You've written 4 paragaph's of excuses as to why the OF did so crap in the period you said they were a match for any EPL side despite the fact that EVERY season their achievements were outstripped by EPL sides - usually extensively.

Trying to debate this issue with you is like banging my head against a wall, except bricks and mortar could probably put together a more coherent argument than you. I thought I'd have one last stab at it, though I'm probably wasting my time: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT THE OLD FIRM SIDES COULD EVEN TRED WATER WITH THE TOP EPL SIDES. NOTHING. DIDDLY SQUAT. NADA.

by super_realist Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:52 am

Hilarious to see the Rangers fans crying on tv last night.

by The Galveston Giant Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:57 am

Doon the Water wrote:Well said Dass...best comments so far.
The trouble with the Little Englanders is that they live in an EPL bubble and the minute someone posts a comment from outside the bubble they panic and resort to some comments that ...to put it politely...are not well structured.

It was interesting to see that most of the Scottish pro Larsson comments came from non Celtic supporters.
You could see that happening in England ......Not.

I think a lot of them believe that if they didn't play in their prime in England then it was because they were not good enough.

Also if the SPL was so bad then it wouldn't be raided by English clubs every season.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:08 am

The Galveston Giant wrote:
Doon the Water wrote:Well said Dass...best comments so far.
The trouble with the Little Englanders is that they live in an EPL bubble and the minute someone posts a comment from outside the bubble they panic and resort to some comments that ...to put it politely...are not well structured.

It was interesting to see that most of the Scottish pro Larsson comments came from non Celtic supporters.
You could see that happening in England ......Not.

I think a lot of them believe that if they didn't play in their prime in England then it was because they were not good enough.

Also if the SPL was so bad then it wouldn't be raided by English clubs every season.

I think it's a little unfair to tar us all with the same brush. The EPL is a stronger league, that's a given, but we don't all think that anyone involved in the SPL is by definition rubbish. I'm a United fan and vociferous defender of the EPL as you can see, but I'm happy to agree that Larsson was an excellent footballer, loved him when he was at United and we were desperate to keep him longer. He also did well at Barca, so that's success in 3 national leagues - something few English footballers can boast.

And there are players that perform well in both leagues, like Hartson, equally there are players that were discarded by the SPL to find success in the EPL like Charlie Adam and vice-versa like Chris Sutton (who was nothing once Shearer stopped carrying him).

I wouldn't say the EPL ever really 'raided' the SPL either, in recent years I can't think of any major signings from the SPL or players who have come on to be top top players. Arteta is an interesting example, good player bought from Rangers after success there, played very well for Everton but then has been shown up a little once he's joined a top side in Arsenal. Picking up players from the SPL is a bit like buying from top Championship sides or lower EPL sides. Alan Hutton was bought from Scotland I believe but soon found his level - not a top 6 EPL side.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:10 am

To clarify, I'm not a 'Little Englander' or OF hater, I think they'd do fine in the EPL after 2-3 seasons adjustment (which would be very tough at first whilst the money starts to cycle through, akin to getting promoted from the Championship). Unless they got a sugar-daddy I can't see them ever breaking into the top 6, but 6-10 is pretty fair and realistic.

by super_realist Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:15 am

I wish people would stop talking as if the OF are going to join the EPL, they don't want them, it isn't going to happen, EVER. It would be turkey's voting for christmas.

by Celtic Warrior Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:31 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Alan Hutton was bought from Scotland I believe but soon found his level - not a top 6 EPL side.

Hutton is probably a bad example. He hit an, admittedly, impresive run of form for club and country for a half a season. On the basis of that he was then snapped up. That run of form ended and he returned to the average player that we see today.

One that has went down there and got on with his job efficiently enough, and I am by no means claiming he is a top player, is Steven Fletcher. James MacArthur and James McCarthy don't seem to be doing too badly either...although again, not at a top EPL side.

It can work...but there will always be exceptions to any example. Like you say it works the other way too. Tore Andre Flo and Thomas Graveson are the names that instantly spring to mind for players not really making as big a mark in the SPL as they should have been capable of.

It is a slightly moot point that has sprung a dreat deal of debate. England based fans will never accept that the Old Firm could be a threat and will always belittle the teams because of the league they play in. Scottish fans will always big the teams up.

I would agree that I think top 10 would be about their level....certainly for the immediate future.

All hypothetical though as it will never happen.

by The Galveston Giant Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:35 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
The Galveston Giant wrote:
Doon the Water wrote:Well said Dass...best comments so far.
The trouble with the Little Englanders is that they live in an EPL bubble and the minute someone posts a comment from outside the bubble they panic and resort to some comments that ...to put it politely...are not well structured.

It was interesting to see that most of the Scottish pro Larsson comments came from non Celtic supporters.
You could see that happening in England ......Not.

I think a lot of them believe that if they didn't play in their prime in England then it was because they were not good enough.

Also if the SPL was so bad then it wouldn't be raided by English clubs every season.

I think it's a little unfair to tar us all with the same brush. The EPL is a stronger league, that's a given, but we don't all think that anyone involved in the SPL is by definition rubbish. I'm a United fan and vociferous defender of the EPL as you can see, but I'm happy to agree that Larsson was an excellent footballer, loved him when he was at United and we were desperate to keep him longer. He also did well at Barca, so that's success in 3 national leagues - something few English footballers can boast.

And there are players that perform well in both leagues, like Hartson, equally there are players that were discarded by the SPL to find success in the EPL like Charlie Adam and vice-versa like Chris Sutton (who was nothing once Shearer stopped carrying him).

I wouldn't say the EPL ever really 'raided' the SPL either, in recent years I can't think of any major signings from the SPL or players who have come on to be top top players. Arteta is an interesting example, good player bought from Rangers after success there, played very well for Everton but then has been shown up a little once he's joined a top side in Arsenal. Picking up players from the SPL is a bit like buying from top Championship sides or lower EPL sides. Alan Hutton was bought from Scotland I believe but soon found his level - not a top 6 EPL side.

All the top players in Scottish football leave for England, whether they become top top players or not doesn't really matter. Lots of players have joined the old firm in the last decade just to be in the shop window for England.

by super_realist Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:04 pm

Well they'd be stupid and lack ambition to stay.

Can't think of one who has really set the heather alight down south though unless you go as far back as Van Bronkhurst.

Very average players and a good reason to pick no SPL players for the national side.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:07 pm

Celtic Warrior wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Alan Hutton was bought from Scotland I believe but soon found his level - not a top 6 EPL side.

Hutton is probably a bad example. He hit an, admittedly, impresive run of form for club and country for a half a season. On the basis of that he was then snapped up. That run of form ended and he returned to the average player that we see today.

One that has went down there and got on with his job efficiently enough, and I am by no means claiming he is a top player, is Steven Fletcher. James MacArthur and James McCarthy don't seem to be doing too badly either...although again, not at a top EPL side.

It can work...but there will always be exceptions to any example. Like you say it works the other way too. Tore Andre Flo and Thomas Graveson are the names that instantly spring to mind for players not really making as big a mark in the SPL as they should have been capable of.

It is a slightly moot point that has sprung a dreat deal of debate. England based fans will never accept that the Old Firm could be a threat and will always belittle the teams because of the league they play in. Scottish fans will always big the teams up.

I would agree that I think top 10 would be about their level....certainly for the immediate future.

All hypothetical though as it will never happen.

Fletcher is a good example, doing a great job for Wolves this season but he's doing well as the point man of a poor side. Flo's interesting, I thought he was quite successful at Rangers? Just checked and his record was 29 goals in 53 appearances, better than 1 in 2, whereas he made his name at Chelsea but only scored 1 in 3.

Think you're right about the debate polarising opinion though, naturally defensive Scots will always over-blow their teams and dismissive/slightly arrogant EPL fans will always rubbish the efforts and qualities of the Auld enemy.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:10 pm

The Galveston Giant wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
The Galveston Giant wrote:
Doon the Water wrote:Well said Dass...best comments so far.
The trouble with the Little Englanders is that they live in an EPL bubble and the minute someone posts a comment from outside the bubble they panic and resort to some comments that ...to put it politely...are not well structured.

It was interesting to see that most of the Scottish pro Larsson comments came from non Celtic supporters.
You could see that happening in England ......Not.

I think a lot of them believe that if they didn't play in their prime in England then it was because they were not good enough.

Also if the SPL was so bad then it wouldn't be raided by English clubs every season.

I think it's a little unfair to tar us all with the same brush. The EPL is a stronger league, that's a given, but we don't all think that anyone involved in the SPL is by definition rubbish. I'm a United fan and vociferous defender of the EPL as you can see, but I'm happy to agree that Larsson was an excellent footballer, loved him when he was at United and we were desperate to keep him longer. He also did well at Barca, so that's success in 3 national leagues - something few English footballers can boast.

And there are players that perform well in both leagues, like Hartson, equally there are players that were discarded by the SPL to find success in the EPL like Charlie Adam and vice-versa like Chris Sutton (who was nothing once Shearer stopped carrying him).

I wouldn't say the EPL ever really 'raided' the SPL either, in recent years I can't think of any major signings from the SPL or players who have come on to be top top players. Arteta is an interesting example, good player bought from Rangers after success there, played very well for Everton but then has been shown up a little once he's joined a top side in Arsenal. Picking up players from the SPL is a bit like buying from top Championship sides or lower EPL sides. Alan Hutton was bought from Scotland I believe but soon found his level - not a top 6 EPL side.

All the top players in Scottish football leave for England, whether they become top top players or not doesn't really matter. Lots of players have joined the old firm in the last decade just to be in the shop window for England.

Leaving for England has a different implication than England 'raiding' Scotland. The latter suggests a deep talent pool that EPL clubs can't wait to get their hands on, the former implies players know it's a weak division and only a stepping stone to bigger and better things.

by Celtic Warrior Wed 15 Feb 2012, 12:33 pm

Yeah Flo's scoring record was good, but I think the fee attached to it was what made it look worse. He cost them, what, £12million? That is a MASSIVE fee for an SPL team to pay. And despite the fact that he had a decent scoring record in the league he was sold after 2 seasons for circa £6.75-7million. Not exactly a great return (but that speaks more about the business practices of Rangers.)

I just don't think it ever took off for him as much as the fans expected it to.

by Kay Fabe Wed 15 Feb 2012, 1:06 pm

You say 98-00 Rangers were one of the top sides in the UK yet in 97/98 they couldn't get passed the qualifiers (beaten by the mighty Gothenburg) whilst Newcastle at least got to the group stages and United the QF. In 98/99 they couldn't even get in the competition (presdumably as they couldn't even win their own league)

Erm, well this seems pretty obvious but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your just confusing yourself, by the time the 97/98 season came along, Rangers were an aging team, a lot of their players had been there for years and years and the manager was probably to loyal to most because they were going for a record breaking 10 in a row, they got knocked out of Europe in 1997, a year before they had the team I described, they also lost the league that season which explains their absense from the 98/99 CL, in the Summer of 1998 though they aquired one of the best coaches in Europe at the time in Dick Advocaat and they spent crazy money for that time, almost £40m and the talent that was signed was some of the best talent that was signed in the UK that year

In your 2000-2004 'Celtic glory period' you were knocked out of the griups three times and the qualifiers the other time

It's true, we were knocked out, but that's what happens when seedings come into play, Celtic who had no previous experiance in the Champions League in 2001/02 were fourth seeds, a group that contained Juventus, Rosenborg and Porto, teams who all went on to win their respective leagues that season, when inexperianced clubs enter the Champions League many are 'caught cold' as Arsenal found out in 98/99 and 99/00 and even the likes of Manchester City found out this year, Celtic had to build a European port folio which then allowed the club to climb the seedings so future far less talented Celtic teams could prosper, infact in 2006/07 Celtic qualified from their group before Manchester United could join us

I've got absolutely no problem at all with your stats and your 'facts' however with the very little knowledge or understanding surrounding them then they really don't mean much at all as I have pointed out in response to your above quotes

by johnson2 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 1:19 pm

Just leave Gaffer to it. He obviously thinks Scottish teams are equal to English teams, and probably Barca and Real as well.

by Kay Fabe Wed 15 Feb 2012, 1:54 pm

Arteta is an interesting example, good player bought from Rangers after success there, played very well for Everton but then has been shown up a little once he's joined a top side in Arsenal.

Everton bought Arteta from LaLiga

by The Galveston Giant Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:00 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
The Galveston Giant wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
The Galveston Giant wrote:
Doon the Water wrote:Well said Dass...best comments so far.
The trouble with the Little Englanders is that they live in an EPL bubble and the minute someone posts a comment from outside the bubble they panic and resort to some comments that ...to put it politely...are not well structured.

It was interesting to see that most of the Scottish pro Larsson comments came from non Celtic supporters.
You could see that happening in England ......Not.

I think a lot of them believe that if they didn't play in their prime in England then it was because they were not good enough.

Also if the SPL was so bad then it wouldn't be raided by English clubs every season.

I think it's a little unfair to tar us all with the same brush. The EPL is a stronger league, that's a given, but we don't all think that anyone involved in the SPL is by definition rubbish. I'm a United fan and vociferous defender of the EPL as you can see, but I'm happy to agree that Larsson was an excellent footballer, loved him when he was at United and we were desperate to keep him longer. He also did well at Barca, so that's success in 3 national leagues - something few English footballers can boast.

And there are players that perform well in both leagues, like Hartson, equally there are players that were discarded by the SPL to find success in the EPL like Charlie Adam and vice-versa like Chris Sutton (who was nothing once Shearer stopped carrying him).

I wouldn't say the EPL ever really 'raided' the SPL either, in recent years I can't think of any major signings from the SPL or players who have come on to be top top players. Arteta is an interesting example, good player bought from Rangers after success there, played very well for Everton but then has been shown up a little once he's joined a top side in Arsenal. Picking up players from the SPL is a bit like buying from top Championship sides or lower EPL sides. Alan Hutton was bought from Scotland I believe but soon found his level - not a top 6 EPL side.

All the top players in Scottish football leave for England, whether they become top top players or not doesn't really matter. Lots of players have joined the old firm in the last decade just to be in the shop window for England.

Leaving for England has a different implication than England 'raiding' Scotland. The latter suggests a deep talent pool that EPL clubs can't wait to get their hands on, the former implies players know it's a weak division and only a stepping stone to bigger and better things.

It was a point to say if the SPL is so crap then why does all the talent from it get signed by English teams, no need to study every word.

by The Galveston Giant Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:04 pm

super_realist wrote:Well they'd be stupid and lack ambition to stay.

Can't think of one who has really set the heather alight down south though unless you go as far back as Van Bronkhurst.

Very average players and a good reason to pick no SPL players for the national side.

Listen, the SPL is Poopie. But if it was a Poopie as you make out nobody would head down south from it.

by super_realist Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:10 pm

True, but if it were that good, they wouldn't have to move south, but like people have said, how many have done really well? Not many

No one has said the EPL is that great either, and the SPL players who have ended up there, usually end up at the poorer teams in the bottom echelons of that league,

by The Galveston Giant Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:23 pm

So unless everyone joins Man Utd and scores 30 odd goals a season they're not really that good?

by TopHat24/7 Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:37 pm

the-gaffer wrote:
Arteta is an interesting example, good player bought from Rangers after success there, played very well for Everton but then has been shown up a little once he's joined a top side in Arsenal.

Everton bought Arteta from LaLiga

Someone else used the phrase 'Rangers via Everton' earlier in the thread so I hadn't thought to double check as I thought this was correct. He played 15 games for Real Sociedad, sandwiched in between his two most significant club stints being Rangers and Everton. Therefore to say he was bought from La Liga is a bit of a red herring statement, his performances at Rangers were what brought him to Everton not a brief sejour in sunny Spain.

by Ent Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:39 pm

the-gaffer wrote:
You say 98-00 Rangers were one of the top sides in the UK yet in 97/98 they couldn't get passed the qualifiers (beaten by the mighty Gothenburg) whilst Newcastle at least got to the group stages and United the QF. In 98/99 they couldn't even get in the competition (presdumably as they couldn't even win their own league)

Erm, well this seems pretty obvious but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your just confusing yourself, by the time the 97/98 season came along, Rangers were an aging team, a lot of their players had been there for years and years and the manager was probably to loyal to most because they were going for a record breaking 10 in a row, they got knocked out of Europe in 1997, a year before they had the team I described, they also lost the league that season which explains their absense from the 98/99 CL, in the Summer of 1998 though they aquired one of the best coaches in Europe at the time in Dick Advocaat and they spent crazy money for that time, almost £40m and the talent that was signed was some of the best talent that was signed in the UK that year

In your 2000-2004 'Celtic glory period' you were knocked out of the griups three times and the qualifiers the other time

It's true, we were knocked out, but that's what happens when seedings come into play, Celtic who had no previous experiance in the Champions League in 2001/02 were fourth seeds, a group that contained Juventus, Rosenborg and Porto, teams who all went on to win their respective leagues that season, when inexperianced clubs enter the Champions League many are 'caught cold' as Arsenal found out in 98/99 and 99/00 and even the likes of Manchester City found out this year, Celtic had to build a European port folio which then allowed the club to climb the seedings so future far less talented Celtic teams could prosper, infact in 2006/07 Celtic qualified from their group before Manchester United could join us

I've got absolutely no problem at all with your stats and your 'facts' however with the very little knowledge or understanding surrounding them then they really don't mean much at all as I have pointed out in response to your above quotes

Gaffer these are just becoming excuses now really, the English clubs involved in the examples above e.g. Newcastle had never been there before either. Also if we were to consider bad luck and other mitigating circumstances then the EPL clubs would have gone further in the CL too.

Lets just face it Celtic had a good side from 00-04 but not good enough to cope with the top PL sides over the course of a league season.

by super_realist Wed 15 Feb 2012, 2:40 pm

Galveston, I'm not saying that at all, but to say SPL players are in high demand in England is untrue, a few end up there, mostly for inferior teams and even more end up in the championship. Just as arrivals from Sweden, Denmark, Slovak, Czech and Polish leagues do, but no one is trying to convince themselves that they are strong leagues.

You can't blame them though, because although they won't win the tinpot trpohies like if they stayed in Scotland, they'll play a better standard at Leeds, Boro, Derby etc.

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