How would Celtic and Rangers do in the Prem?

First topic message reminder :

This debate has been going around for ages. But whats your thoughts on this?
Will they challenge for the title or a European slot, or will they struggle?
Over to you people........

working man and working class obviously have ther own meaning, and its more about manual work i soppse

They say that the biggest crowd in the UK tomorrow will be at Ibrox.

well it should be- its fa cup anyway, and obviously rangers must be calling on all fans at this time

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dont understand what you're saying at all to be honest.

OK. Sorry If I have not explained myself very well Ghosty. Apologies bud.

* English football, has Billions of amounts of shekels involved in it.
* English football is still abysmal at European Club and International level.
* Lesser clubs and lesser (but far better technically) International powers, have halted and questioned this mis-conception of how good it all is, continually - over the years.

This, we all know to be true. Based on facts
What dont you understand?

Money & self-hype dont buy you love. Or, trophies outside your own cocoon.

Think about it.

I blame SKY for all this. Its mass-hypnotism by subscription.

Tosh and double tosh.

If you want facts - look at the statistics I posted earlier in the thread regarding which country has contributed the most quarter-finalists to all European competitions. These ARE facts and show England is waaaaaay out ahead on its own. Spain was second but almost entirely down to just 2 teams (RM & Barca).

A couple of years back Platini (the tool) was getting all upset because we had 3 out of the 4 semi-finalists in the Champions League! We are also the only country in recent years to have had 2 teams in the final of the Champions League play eachother.

In the last 7 seasons England has contributed a finalist in EVERY season but one, and has contributed 7 finalists total and 2 winners. No other league comes close to this. Spain has 2 winners (Barca both times) but that's it.

Please try and think (or research) before you post ignorant drivel.

Top Hat, with respect, you conveniently forget to mention, that these Top English teams are not, in fact - English. All run by - and massively over-represented by - foreigners. They are not your teams anymore. The are run by Corporations, who are sucking it dry financially and hampering the growth of indigenous players development and with no care for the English game and its future. That's my point. Its why English International football will never get anywhere - if this continues. And, it will.

The majority of indigenous players chances of breaking through, are being severely marginalised. All for the good of a quick buck. English fans are supporting far too high a percentage of foreign-run teams. With foreign players. Not English ones. And considering the vast amounts paid out for this delusion - English teams are still not doing well in Europe. Chelsea, Arsenal, United, Liverpool and now City(on a huge scale) - all fall into these categories. And, they are all out before the next round of CL games. Except Chelsea - the only one left with a chance to progress. They played v Leverkusen, with ONE, yes ONE English player. Arsenal are no better. City - are a disgrace in this respect. See the pattern here? I believe that United - under Fergie, really have tried to redress this imbalance over the years. So fair play to em for that.

I suggest you do a wee survey yourself and check this. Club by club - at the high-end. And get back to me. Educate youself. Raise your level of conscousness. You are being duped on a massive scale, if you actually believe that English club football is successful in Europe. It is the Corporations & Oligarchs who are. If you are happy with that mass-delusion. Fine.

I rest my case. Again.

Here is a start for you, in your quest for the Truth. Fewer than 40% English players in the Prem? And most of them - are just squad players. Its scandalous.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/08/jose-luis-astiazaran-la-liga-england

Sorry Celtic and Rangers fans for, hijacking this thread. Just have to edcuate the masses. Can't help it.

Hail Hail. And I pray Rangers get back to an even keel. Celtic need that to happen nearly as much as Rangers. They need each other bad.

There is a very big reality gap between how the average England footy fan sees the performance of EPL and the performance English national team.

gibson do have a problem with our league, its our league the english league, it is a business, it brings masses and masses of revenue into the country, it produces quality football, it promotes a multi cultural world, it promotes a multi cultural game. Its a great league and great contributer to world football and britains balance of payments!

I think you need to get some sort if reality check in fairness.
a few REAL stats for you, because your bogged down in this situation!

england are the only nation to have fielded 11 players in a champions league final!

england are the 5th ranked team in the world

england have the richest league in the world(this helps the country out- especially in times of economic problems)

england have the most multicultural league in the world(trust me that is not a bad thing- only bad for BNP supporters)

Top Hat, with respect, you conveniently forget to mention, that these Top English teams are not, in fact - English. All run by - and massively over-represented by - foreigners. They are not your teams anymore. The are run by Corporations, who are sucking it dry financially and hampering the growth of indigenous players development and with no care for the English game and its future. That's my point. Its why English International football will never get anywhere - if this continues. And, it will.

The majority of indigenous players chances of breaking through, are being severely marginalised. All for the good of a quick buck. English fans are supporting far too high a percentage of foreign-run teams. With foreign players. Not English ones. And considering the vast amounts paid out for this delusion - English teams are still not doing well in Europe. Chelsea, Arsenal, United, Liverpool and now City(on a huge scale) - all fall into these categories. And, they are all out before the next round of CL games. Except Chelsea - the only one left with a chance to progress. They played v Leverkusen, with ONE, yes ONE English player. Arsenal are no better. City - are a disgrace in this respect. See the pattern here? I believe that United - under Fergie, really have tried to redress this imbalance over the years. So fair play to em for that.

They are based in England you stupid anglophobe. The clubs are supported by generally English paying fans, and clubs in every country have a batch of foreign players anyway so what are you trying to get at?

Your little crusade needs a lot more thinking before you let loose your drivel.

Please explain

How do foreign football mercenaries and thier agents taking money out of the country be good for the economy. Bear in mind that they are generally paid in a manner where they pay very little tax to HMCR.

"How do foreign football mercenaries and thier agents taking money out of the country"

er out of the country- i think you missunderstand!



Players, owners, investors spend money in this country, they help local communities

they live in this country, they buy houses in this country, but products in this country, they keep the reputation that britain is the place to be!!

there want in- its all ABOUT FORIEGN INVESTMENT!!!

they pay tax in this country, through income tax, capital gains tax, corp tax

the overinflated wages that are paid to players pay tax, they also spend more in there local communities.

tv rights sell for more, WAYYY MORE, to tens and tens of countries world wide, more merchendise is sold on the back of it. Tv companies employee more people, they make more money, more income tax is paid, more corp tax is paid, more people buy into british media, more exposure more british products sold.

the FA makes bundles more money- something i agree needs to be looked at abit more- wheres it going, lets hope the plans they have help us out!

However they are investing in britain and the PL brand- the EPL makes the country one hell of alot of money.

i shouldnt have to explain this to you doon, is very simple, yet i appreciate, most people dont get economics, business or foriegn investment. Just try to find negatives when there arnt any!

the thing countries like briatin need to stabilise economy is foreign investment. The pl markets our country to a very wide audience and keep it going. if it is a detrement to our footballing skills on a national scale so be it(thats a myth anyway)- the economy is more important

england are the only nation to have fielded 11 players in a champions league final!

england are the 5th ranked team in the world

Two points here, what do you mean about fielding 11 players in a CL final? And as for the England ranking, do you really believe that England are the fifth best team in World Football and do you honestly believe they merit that kind of ranking when they've done nothing of any real note since Italia 90 bearing in mind that Euro 96 was in their own back yard and they only 'won' two games during the entire tournament

Doon the Water wrote:Please explain

How do foreign football mercenaries and thier agents taking money out of the country be good for the economy. Bear in mind that they are generally paid in a manner where they pay very little tax to HMCR.

Doon,
They cant see it. It would mean admitting they are being had. It would take a brave English soccer-fan to admit it. Ive met a few. They know. But will always support their club loyally. Thats cool. But at least they know. Even worse are the Irish soccerball fans who spend millions supporting these teams, to the detriment of their own League. Corporate greed hypnotises and rules the masses.

Btw to the poster who said I am anti-English. Boll*x. All my best mates are English. I love the country. My sons are English born. Dutch reared mind.

Just pointing out the Truth. Dont shoot the messenger. And THINK. Dont read The Sun for your opinions.

the uefa champions league final featuring chelsea and united fielded 11 english players, no other nation has had that many nationals represented in a cl final.

in terms of the ranking- its just a fact, things arnt that bad at all. dont expect to much, alot of countries play this game, just because we invented it doesnt mean that we have to be the best.

we also finished in 3 consecutive quarter finals with sven- not something to be sniffed at at all- lost on penalties in quite a few as well!!

we have a positive- our league, and no it doesnt hurt our national game what soever. and it brings alot of money into this country, it also puts our country on the map in many countries. had enough with teh whingers on here with a deep lack of understanding when it comes to football and the pl as a global footballing event and a very good business, which aids our country

Gibson wrote:

Doon the Water wrote:Please explain

How do foreign football mercenaries and thier agents taking money out of the country be good for the economy. Bear in mind that they are generally paid in a manner where they pay very little tax to HMCR.

Doon,
They cant see it. It would mean admitting they are being had. It would take a brave English soccer-fan to admit it. Ive met a few. They know. But will always support their club loyally. Thats cool. But at least they know. Even worse are the Irish soccerball fans who spend millions supporting these teams, to the detriment of their own League. Corporate greed hypnotises and rules the masses.

Btw to the poster who said I am anti-English. Boll*x. All my best mates are English. I love the country. My sons are English born. Dutch reared mind.

Just pointing out the Truth. Dont shoot the messenger. And THINK. Dont read The Sun for your opinions.

gibson/doon i have listed how it makes our country money and lots of it, there is no discussion otherwise.

sit down and try and work it out. The pl is a product that is sold
across the globe, apart from all the other benefits that bring bags of
money into this country. If you just stick with your stances you are
showing alot of ignorance.

you have even listed ireland spending money supporting the prem- which in tail goes back to britain!- you understand part of it- you just arnt adding 2 and 2 together

the uefa champions league final featuring chelsea and united fielded 11 english players, no other nation has had that many nationals represented in a cl final.

That's wrong I'm afraid, I think they had 10 between them for a start but that's irrelevant anyway since it's not even close, in 2000 Real Madrid and Valencia had 13 Spaniards starting that Champions League final and a further two came on which gives them the grand total of 15 Spaniards on the pitch in one particular final

mystiroakey wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Doon the Water wrote:Please explain

How do foreign football mercenaries and thier agents taking money out of the country be good for the economy. Bear in mind that they are generally paid in a manner where they pay very little tax to HMCR.

Doon,
They cant see it. It would mean admitting they are being had. It would take a brave English soccer-fan to admit it. Ive met a few. They know. But will always support their club loyally. Thats cool. But at least they know. Even worse are the Irish soccerball fans who spend millions supporting these teams, to the detriment of their own League. Corporate greed hypnotises and rules the masses.

Btw to the poster who said I am anti-English. Boll*x. All my best mates are English. I love the country. My sons are English born. Dutch reared mind.

Just pointing out the Truth. Dont shoot the messenger. And THINK. Dont read The Sun for your opinions.

gibson/doon i have listed how it makes our country money and lots of it, there is no discussion otherwise.

sit down and try and work it out. The pl is a product that is sold
across the globe, apart from all the other benefits that bring bags of
money into this country. If you just stick with your stances you are
showing alot of ignorance.

you have even listed ireland spending money supporting the prem- which in tail goes back to britain!- you understand part of it- you just arnt adding 2 and 2 together

Oh I can add Mysti. I can add. I can see as well. SKY TV. Where do they come from? And. Who owns Chelsea? Who owns United? Who owns City? Who owns Liverpool? Who plays for them? Why are their so many foriegn managers joining them? The list goes on and on. Top level English club-football is foreign-run and foreign owned. The money is leaving the country. Its in Switzerland. Not in England. And you are sponsoring it.

Im a realist. Its a Global Economy. The World is ruled by Corporations. Your whole life and all decisions taken by them - even in your private lesiure-time, is governed by them. You are owned. But, lets stick to English Prem football here. The odds are stacked against English players in the midst of it all. Im on their side. Cant you see that? The FA should butt in and make an effort to stem the tide. But, money rules them too.

English club-football, sold its Soul to the Company Goal long ago. And loyal local fans, all over the country, are blindly lapping it all up. Its the way of the World.

Ive said my piece. Sorry if Ive upset anyones sensitivities. But, not sorry if it altered just one fan's perception.

Enjoy the rest of it.

Both Glasgow clubs have potential to be top 4 material and have the fanbase to achieve attendances as high as Man Utd, providing their Premier league riches are spent on stadium expansion.

Celtic and Rangers playing in the Premier League will only be good for the league, not for both English and Scottish Football. Casual football fans in Scotland are more likely to follow the Old Firm than support their local sides, whilst English football clubs across the pyramid are denied a chance to further themselves.

AMi,
Well put. I remember the days when Celtic were by far and away, the biggest supported club on the Planet. Way above United. The rest - didnt even reckon.

Now, most of India supports United. As do greater parts of Asia. Clever marketing by their Corpos. More muny. England, is only a very small part of it all. But say nowt.

Is it not strange an English football fan would boast that for one game nearly half of his team is English.
I think it then stops being an English league and starts being a world corporate league.

How soon will it be before the start changing the team names. Wallmart Newcastle playing Emiretes Arsenal.

It would be Sportsdirect Newcastle wouldn't it? Gibbo raises some good points. 38% of the players in the Prem were English in 2007-08 as far as I know. What makes it different to La Liga is these players have to peak every week, as any team are capable of beating them. English players are overated but after playing around 50 games a season they have little left in the tank. So that's why these supposedly "great" palyers fail.

Over history, only Man U and Liverpool can be considered bigger teams than Rangers and Celtic, give them 30 million to spend over 4 or 5 years and they would both be fighting for the top four in the Premier League. The truth is that fans of the Premier League hype it beyond belief, whereas Rangers and Celtic fans unfortunately think they are better than they are. Rangers and Celtic have fans who are more passionate than any in the rest of Britain and this is how they could give'big' teams like Tottenham and Chelsea a good game.

Gibson wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Doon the Water wrote:Please explain

How do foreign football mercenaries and thier agents taking money out of the country be good for the economy. Bear in mind that they are generally paid in a manner where they pay very little tax to HMCR.

Doon,
They cant see it. It would mean admitting they are being had. It would take a brave English soccer-fan to admit it. Ive met a few. They know. But will always support their club loyally. Thats cool. But at least they know. Even worse are the Irish soccerball fans who spend millions supporting these teams, to the detriment of their own League. Corporate greed hypnotises and rules the masses.

Btw to the poster who said I am anti-English. Boll*x. All my best mates are English. I love the country. My sons are English born. Dutch reared mind.

Just pointing out the Truth. Dont shoot the messenger. And THINK. Dont read The Sun for your opinions.

gibson/doon i have listed how it makes our country money and lots of it, there is no discussion otherwise.

sit down and try and work it out. The pl is a product that is sold
across the globe, apart from all the other benefits that bring bags of
money into this country. If you just stick with your stances you are
showing alot of ignorance.

you have even listed ireland spending money supporting the prem- which in tail goes back to britain!- you understand part of it- you just arnt adding 2 and 2 together

Oh I can add Mysti. I can add. I can see as well. SKY TV. Where do they come from? And. Who owns Chelsea? Who owns United? Who owns City? Who owns Liverpool? Who plays for them? Why are their so many foriegn managers joining them? The list goes on and on. Top level English club-football is foreign-run and foreign owned. The money is leaving the country. Its in Switzerland. Not in England. And you are sponsoring it.

Im a realist. Its a Global Economy. The World is ruled by Corporations. Your whole life and all decisions taken by them - even in your private lesiure-time, is governed by them. You are owned. But, lets stick to English Prem football here. The odds are stacked against English players in the midst of it all. Im on their side. Cant you see that? The FA should butt in and make an effort to stem the tide. But, money rules them too.

English club-football, sold its Soul to the Company Goal long ago. And loyal local fans, all over the country, are blindly lapping it all up. Its the way of the World.

Ive said my piece. Sorry if Ive upset anyones sensitivities. But, not sorry if it altered just one fan's perception.

Enjoy the rest of it.

Gibson we need forign investment in this country, we are to small and have to bigger population without enough organic resource to survive the way we do otherwise- we are the 5th biggest world economy for a reason. The pem is a net contributer to the uk economy.

an example below- just based on chelsea- as this is a very complex conversation if you want a intellegent conversation.

this is a very complex matter- but lets start of with a simple point- you say that because its forign owned the money leaves the country

forign owbers paid inflated amounts for clubs based on 'net worth' of players and fans- they make nothing back on this- they may pay tax(goes back to uk economy) on inflated profits based on 'net worth' of players- however the only way for them to take that money out of this country(were most of them live and will stay anyway!!!!) is to sell on the club for mor ethan they put in.

the money comes in to the country and less goes out!

the prem being the massive draw it is creates jobs, creates stimulas, creates other investment into the uk, Its also free marketing into the uk.

As i said a very complex matter, and it would take an essay to explain if you dont have an understanding of forign investments and the advantages, brand recognition for the country.

anyway good luck with whatever you want to acheive. In all honesty i hoipe you have learnt something, but i doubt it

Mysti.
Neat wee sidestep away from the players to the owners.

Mysti, I noticed you told a fellow "I hope you learnt something, but I doubt it"

So I thought I'd re-post my response to you since you completely blanked "Learning Something"

the-gaffer wrote:

the uefa champions league final featuring chelsea and united fielded 11 english players, no other nation has had that many nationals represented in a cl final.

That's wrong I'm afraid, I think they had 10 between them for a start but that's irrelevant anyway since it's not even close, in 2000 Real Madrid and Valencia had 13 Spaniards starting that Champions League final and a further two came on which gives them the grand total of 15 Spaniards on the pitch in one particular final

Thanks man. I appreciate the recognition.

But can I ask you to walk away and actually think about it?

You sir, may be an imbecile. Or, a veritable genius. Midst a mass of SKY English, over-hyped, football passion-induced eejits. In all fairness.

Ah sure just enjoy it man. Its Sport. Live the dream and its pretence. But they (who ever they are) - are not your team.

Its Corporate whhanking, using minions who pay for their pleasure. Nothing has changed in a 1000 years man.

Unless you support Aldershot.

Im a huge Bees fan meself.

Jaysus Gibbo

Someone has to educate the masses Billy. So much ignorance. So little time.

Ah sure, as long as they are happy buying season-tickets, selling their souls and buying jerseys, for foreign oligarchs. And they believe it stays local. Bless em.

Man City fans must be in ecstasy vaandag. A 500 million quid, pyseudo Championship win(its over). Money that could buy all the NH and SH rugby clubs, in one fell-swoop. With millions to spare.

A pyrrhic victory, when you look at the English national team. Havent moved on since 1966.

But the fans of English Prem sides, who are foreign-owned, with foreign players and foreign coached teams - are happy. Shusssh.
If they actually thought about it for 5 seconds, their very essence would dissolve. But they cant even begin to see it. Brainwashed by SKY. And cheap kicks.


They are there for a reason. Thats why SKY and the SUN exist. Human fodder to feed.
And they think Im mad? Its cool. Say nowt.


I dont expect this to be popular. The Truth never is.

Right Gibbo the team I support is Norwich City. We aren't foreign owned, we have three foreign players of which two are from America and Canada so they are from English speaking countries and our coach/manager is Scottish. Now I'm happy with that, I don't care about the other teams to be frank

Go the Canaries!

The might, geld and power of Man U, humbled by a real English team.


Love it.

Well we humbled Arsenal and Spurs recently but were very unlucky against United in both games

Ye just decided the Prem Title my man. Be proud. Be very proud.

I love the Championship(real 2nd Div) myself. Great to watch. So competitive. More honest than the Prem. So many English players in it. Which is kinky in itself.

You're being a bit over the top Gibson, it doesn't matter whether they are owned by English people or foreign people, English players or foreign players, all that really matters is that it is entertaining.

You'll probably say I have been corrupted by Sky or whatever, but I think you just love being dramatic about it.

Crimey. This is an opinion-based forum. I respect everyone's opinion.

But. If I dont agree with it - I'll tear it apart.

More fun for all eh?

Celtic have foreign owners and was it not a Canadian who saved them from going bust.

Not that I support foreign owners but you can't offer an opinion without loking at your own team.

My team is AZ Alkmaar. Not a big club. But technically better than half the Prem sides. On a shoe-string.

Im also a long standing Celtic fan. But its drifting. Celtic fans lost a lot of class & kudos, in how they behaved towards Rangers sitiuation. Low level imo.

Shooting Huns in a barrel. Not good. In a shoite league, with only two half-decent teams competing. Really not clever.

Celtic need a healthy Rangers. Otherwise... there's nothing to look forward to. Cos Celtic are shoite outside of the SPL.

Crimey wrote:You're being a bit over the top Gibson, it doesn't matter whether they are owned by English people or foreign people, English players or foreign players, all that really matters is that it is entertaining.

You'll probably say I have been corrupted by Sky or whatever, but I think you just love being dramatic about it.

Have you not seen the post that reignited this topic, and you have a go smat Gibson???


You lads live in a backwards words you know that

This tedious thread could do with deleting as it's swiftly boiling down (again) to racial prejudice wrapped in a thin veneer of football debate.

I love the English Prem. Best League in England. By far.

Love & Peace amongst all men.

Gibbo,

As someone who follows the Dutch league what are your thoughts on some of the big names over there at present?
Thinking the likes of Eriksen, Dost, Luuk De Jong, Strootman, Mertens etc.
Can they make it in one of the supposed 'bigger' leagues?

Gibbo my man, i love the AZ quote

Hero,

There are some serious quality players in Holland, very very good individual skills but they are being drawn more and more towards the Spanish league and the Bundasliga over the Premiership. They have shown time and time again that they can make it in the 'supposed' bigger leagues. One of the reasons why the Dutch National team is so good.

It winds me up when any player to be in the Dutch league gets tarred with the Alfonso Alves brush that because Player A didn't transfer their form then Players B, C, D & E would obviously be exactly the same as they've come from a cloning factory and not actually be an individual.

Hero wrote:Gibbo,

As someone who follows the Dutch league what are your thoughts on some of the big names over there at present?
Thinking the likes of Eriksen, Dost, Luuk De Jong, Strootman, Mertens etc.
Can they make it in one of the supposed 'bigger' leagues?

Hero,
Wont comment on the big names who will leave. Thats commerce. But I will say this. Watch out for Ajax in the next 2/3 years. Cruyff has assembled a young team - in his own image.
Pure and total football, is coming home to the land that showed the Brazillians the way forward. Watch them grow.

Sorry if I started a mini-riot on here btw. Its just the way I see it.

And its an opinion-based forum is it not? Im not against foreigners. Im a foreigner. We are all foreigners. Just hate the way the game I used love, is being abused by corporate greed. And how 99% of fans just lap it up. Man City stylee. Thats all.

Love, Peace, Bremner & Giles.

I completely understand the displeasure to the corporate side of the game which may seem a bit glass houses coming from a Man Utd fan as we were embracing the business side of football long before most other clubs even realised the global potential of their brand.

Both teams have a majority of fans who hate England too much to ever leave the SPL (small pond league). Hypothetically I would say Celtic would have more success because they are happier to attack more than Rangers.

Josiah, Rangers fans absolutely love England, the queen and the union.

However I don't think they are even good enough to be playing in league one.

If you look at the dross served up in the fac up by Budwieser, I'm not so sure SR.

2 of the biggest clubs in the world with Sky money are not gonna take long before they are challenging for the title. When i hear people saying they would not compete it is silly because they seem to be making the statement based around their current tv deals of a couple of million a year instead of the £70m Sky premier league deal. With the huge profile each club has worldwide they would be attracting top players before long and be very near the top of the league, seriously does anyone think they would suddenly get that huge injection of cash and still keep the same players they currently have.

They are big clubs based on followers and attendance records, but you have to match that with recent and regular success in Europe to be taken seriously. I could see both teams improving in Europe after a season in the PL though, harder matches and more opponents usually does that, and affording higher wages.

If you look at the teams in the PL, you have to be absolutely minted to make an impact/challenge.

Teams far wealthier than Celtic or Rangers ever will be like Liverpool, Villa and Chelsea are hardly challenging. The old firm would find their level around the west Brom, fulham mark.

Who would be rich enough to provide the necessary injection, and what top notch players would choose to move to that toilet called Glasgow and the poisonous politics associated with those clubs, when top players could just as easily join already established clubs like united, city, arsenal or spurs?

It's academic anyway as it will never happen. No one wants them. They'd be bad for the league.

I wouldn't be against a British League Cup though. That would be interesting. Watching Rangers and Celtic getting knocked out by Hull and Doncaster would be hilarious.