How would Celtic and Rangers do in the Prem?

by Guest Wed 16 Mar 2011, 8:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

This debate has been going around for ages. But whats your thoughts on this?
Will they challenge for the title or a European slot, or will they struggle?
Over to you people........

by Imperial Ghosty Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:50 pm

Puyol a class above based on what? He's slow, not commanding and has terrible positional sense but is fortunate that the teams he plays very rarely give the ball away, go back a few years and he was caught out at every major tournament.

Has he ever almost single handedly kept the Barcelona attack at bay for 180 minutes being partnered by Wes Brown and Mikael Silvestre?

Was he part of a defence that kept 11 straight clean sheets while also not conceding a single away goal in the champions league until the final?

by Ent Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:52 pm

Gibson wrote:
SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Rio Ferdinand was as technically gifted as pretty much any centre half I have ever watched.
But never a Top Class international, central-defender. Great Prem player. But, check Maldini or Puyol - for reference. Its like Men & Boy. No comparison.

Now come off it, I know he plays for united and is a bit of a knob but Rio Ferdinand is one of the best defenders to ever grace the PL.

His form from drug ban return until his injuries kicked in was majestic, mistakes very rare - we wouldn't have won 4/5 titles and reached 3 CL finals in 4 years or set all those defensive records in the PL without him being top class (Evans played in a lot of those record setting games before you kick off about Vidic).

His reading of the game, positioning, leadership was all top class.

As for the comparison Maldini's best days were at left back and Puyol - are you joking? He's a lion and a heart on the sleeve leader but lets face it I could do centre back for this current Barca and Spain side without breaking a sweat and as others have alluded he used to get the run around quite a bit early in his career.

by Gibson Wed 15 Feb 2012, 10:59 pm

Jeezuz lads, the Celtic & Rangers crowd will hunt us down and nobble us for this.

Sugar, I dare you to do this...

Set up a thread, on why English players, or 90% foreign-infused Prem teams - are not technically good enough, to compete, and to win tournaments, at the very highest level. With all the billions invested in their Top League. A League, in my opinion, that is massively over-hyped by SKY and believed in, and paid for, year on year, by its millions of minions. See Milan v Arsenal vanavond. Best footballing-team in England. Humilated. Man U and Man C, for all their billions - in with AZ Alkmaar. A team, who could confidently beat either of them. What's goin on here? Has it all been a dream? Are we delusioned?

That would get a decent discussion going.

by Imperial Ghosty Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:01 pm

Best footballing team in england is now Tottenham.

As for Alkmaar beating City or United, not a chance.

by Ent Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:04 pm

Gibson wrote:Jeezuz lads, the Celtic & Rangers crowd will hunt us down and nobble us for this.

Sugar, I dare you to do this...

Set up a thread, on why English players, or 90% foreign-infused teams - are not technically good enough, to compete, and to win tournaments, at the very highest level. With all the billions invested in their Top League. A League, in my opinion, that is massively over-hyped by SKY and believed in, and paid for, year on year, by its millions of minions. See Milan v Arsenal vanavond. Best footballing-team in England. Humilated. Man U and Man C, for all their billions - in with AZ Alkmaar. A team, who could confidently beat either of them. What's goin on?

That would get a decent discussion going.

Behave, united have had a bad year but prior to this had been in 3/4 Cl finals - beaten by AZ, dear oh dear.

Arsenal have never been the Pls best footballing side (aside from 03/04) thats just hyperbole because they over pass it, and have lost a huge amount of quality in the summer- Milan are much improved and any side would find it hard against them, they gave barca a good run in the group stages.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, PL is overhyped but it is still on the whole a very high quality and high standard league even if it has taken a dip this year.

by Gibson Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:06 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Best footballing team in england is now Tottenham.

As for Alkmaar beating City or United, not a chance.

Ghosty.
They should thrash us. But. They wont. Of course they should beat us, but when you put it all in context... Financially and power-base wise...
I hope you see what Im saying. Money dont buy you football-love. Just Hookers on the Game. See Tevez. The English Prem is a money-filled, self-appreciating, deluded, SKY sponsored, unfulfilled - dreamland.

by Imperial Ghosty Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:11 pm

Dont understand what you're saying at all to be honest.

by Gibson Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:41 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dont understand what you're saying at all to be honest.

OK. Sorry If I have not explained myself very well Ghosty. Apologies bud.

* English football, has Billions of amounts of shekels involved in it.
* English football is still abysmal at European Club and International level.
* Lesser clubs and lesser (but far better technically) International powers, have halted and questioned this mis-conception of how good it all is, continually - over the years.

This, we all know to be true. Based on facts

What dont you understand?

Money & self-hype dont buy you love. Or, trophies outside your own cocoon.

Think about it.

I blame SKY for all this. Its mass-hypnotism by subscription.

by sportform Thu 16 Feb 2012, 12:28 am

I don't think too much money is the problem but rather that the right structures aren't in place.

Ask any Olympic sport and what they need to achieve success and every one will say funding. Football in this country has plenty of 'funding'.

by Gibson Thu 16 Feb 2012, 12:46 am

sportsville wrote:I don't think too much money is the problem but rather that the right structures aren't in place.

Ask any Olympic sport and what they need to achieve success and every one will say funding. Football in this country has plenty of 'funding'.

There is never too much money. It is how it is spent. Should be spent on English Academies, teaching them how to play football properly - from a very young age.

This, is patently not happening. The money is travelling abroad. And, into the pockets of foreign mercenaries. Both oligarchs and players.

It seems to be all about short-term dreams, by uber-rich clubs(also not working) and not developing as a football nation.

It wont change. People are happy, watching Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man C and Spurs, et al - live off the backs of expensive foreign players. Players, who are only there for the short-term shekels. They dont give a feic about English football.

And. It shows.

English football sold its soul a long time ago.

by eirebilly Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:06 am

Gibson wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Gibbo mate, you're a good man but i have to pull you up. As you know i dont live far from you but i have to pull you out on the eredivisie in comparision to the SPL.

The eredivisie is in a shambles and young Dutch talent is fleeing by the droves to look for decent clubs. The standard in the eredivisie is no better than in the SPL.

How many of the Dutch side actually ply their trade in Holland and the eredivisie? Its mainly Spanish, Bundesliga and EPL so using the eredivisie as a comparison is not right. They are also falling by the wayside in Europe, with the exception of this year in the UEFA cup, so are in no better state than the SPL.

Anyway, back to the original topic. I believe that both Celtic and Rangers would be competitive in the Premier league, not challenging for the title but competetive. The thing that some people forget is that the SPL is not that an a competition to attract big stars so if either team went to the PL they could attract some big stars, being that they are big clubs with a rich history, and be very competitive within a year or two.

Billy,
Totally disagree with all of that mate. 4 NL sides in the last 32, proves my point as to the disparity between the 2 leagues. So the standard is obviously higher, when truly tested on the European stage.
Also, indigenous Dutch players, are far more technically-skilled than Scottish players - by design. Its the System. One I have been involved with for years, via my son. He knew how to trap a ball from height, control it, pass it and move - waiting for it back - aged 4. I have seen players at Celtic now, who still cant do that.

It is the very same for most English Prem sides indigenous players. This, is the very reason they spend fortunes getting players in who can. And the reason why England will always fail at international-level. They are basically, not technically skilled enough to compete at the high-end.

I rest my case.

I grew up with and loved Celtic. But. Im a realist. They are not a competitive European side anymore. And the inferior quality of the sides they have to play - week-in, week-out - really doesnt help that.

Sorry Gibbo but this is the first year in several that the Eredivisie has had a little sucess. The eredivisie is nowhere near as competitive as it once was and it is dying. I made the point that the Dutch national team have had sucess but where are those players plying thier trade? Not in the eredivisie my friend. The Dutch produce good footballers as you say but they are generally snapped up long before they get to play in their own league.

by Doon the Water Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:09 am

Local pride has gone.

Your team was generally made up of guys from your area and the fans all lived within a few miles of the ground.

Now local derbys are between players from a different country and fans from a different county.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:22 am

Gibson wrote:
SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Rio Ferdinand was as technically gifted as pretty much any centre half I have ever watched.
But never a Top Class international, central-defender. Great Prem player. But, check Maldini or Puyol - for reference. Its like Men & Boy. No comparison.

PUYOL???!

by TopHat24/7 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:39 am

Gibson wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dont understand what you're saying at all to be honest.

OK. Sorry If I have not explained myself very well Ghosty. Apologies bud.

* English football, has Billions of amounts of shekels involved in it.
* English football is still abysmal at European Club and International level.
* Lesser clubs and lesser (but far better technically) International powers, have halted and questioned this mis-conception of how good it all is, continually - over the years.

This, we all know to be true. Based on facts
What dont you understand?

Money & self-hype dont buy you love. Or, trophies outside your own cocoon.

Think about it.

I blame SKY for all this. Its mass-hypnotism by subscription.

Tosh and double tosh.

If you want facts - look at the statistics I posted earlier in the thread regarding which country has contributed the most quarter-finalists to all European competitions. These ARE facts and show England is waaaaaay out ahead on its own. Spain was second but almost entirely down to just 2 teams (RM & Barca).

A couple of years back Platini (the tool) was getting all upset because we had 3 out of the 4 semi-finalists in the Champions League! We are also the only country in recent years to have had 2 teams in the final of the Champions League play eachother.

In the last 7 seasons England has contributed a finalist in EVERY season but one, and has contributed 7 finalists total and 2 winners. No other league comes close to this. Spain has 2 winners (Barca both times) but that's it.

Please try and think (or research) before you post ignorant drivel.

by sodhat Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:44 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Gibson wrote:
SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Rio Ferdinand was as technically gifted as pretty much any centre half I have ever watched.
But never a Top Class international, central-defender. Great Prem player. But, check Maldini or Puyol - for reference. Its like Men & Boy. No comparison.

PUYOL???!

Puyol is a top defender yes, but so is Rio Ferdinand. I'm not a typically biased Englander in that I'll rate English players higher than they should be rated, but anyone with two eyes could see that Rio is a technically talented footballer, and perhaps until recently, possessed everything you need in a world class centre back.

by Rowley Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:06 am

You young whippersnappers, Puyol and Ferdinand, the pair of em ain't fit to lace Paul McGrath's drinks.

by Thomond Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:30 am

How do you lace a drink?

by sodhat Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:32 am

Thomond wrote:How do you lace a drink?

You've clearly never had a night on the town with Titus Bramble.

by Thomond Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:33 am

Didn't realise old Paul was into that stuff. Very nice man now. He seems to have quit the drink.

by Rowley Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:33 am

Is pretty much the same as spiking it, such as sneaking a shot of vodka into someones pint, is an old term, somewhat superceded by spiking but spiking would not have worked as well on a football thread.

by Kay Fabe Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:33 am

Ahhh now you're talking, pub Monday-Friday, game Saturday and massage Sunday and repeat

by Thomond Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:34 am

Yeah, I got it after the first reply, it just took me a second to realise the double meaning.

by ReallyReal Thu 16 Feb 2012, 3:26 pm

I think this thread deserves an award for the thread with the most posts that are total BS, as too many seem to think that football started with SKY and quite a few wouldn't know what differentiates between natural footballing talent, being good in certain positions, or just being a clogger.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Feb 2012, 5:47 pm

Do think people should elaborate when they dismiss the opinions of others.

by mystiroakey Thu 16 Feb 2012, 5:55 pm

do you think we could do a trade?- let the OF in the prem as long as Salmond quits.

by Doon the Water Thu 16 Feb 2012, 7:24 pm

A few hard facts. [To shut up the numptie posters]

Biggest ever years average attendances.

EPL
Wigan [2006] 20.2k
Swansea [1949] 22.5k
QPR [1976] 23.8k
Norwich [1973] 28.4k
Fulham [1950] 33.0k

Chumps
Leeds [2002] 39.7
Ipswich [1977] 26.6
Barnsley [1948] 21.2.

Scots biggest attandance [not average]

Rangers [1939] 118.5k
Celtic [1938] 83.0k
Hearts [1932] 53.3k

European 2010/2011 Season average attendances

Rangers [12th] 48.9k
Celtic 45.3k.

Man U [4th] Aresnal [8th] above Rangers

Newcastle and Man C above Celtic

To sum up there are two EPL teams who average higher gates than Rangers
There are four EPL clubs with higher average gates than Celtic.

by mystiroakey Thu 16 Feb 2012, 7:35 pm

doon would you like the OF in the prem?

by Doon the Water Thu 16 Feb 2012, 7:59 pm

I think so.
They would certainly add value to the EPL.
The EPL looks like it is starting to falter. Teams like Burnley, QPR. Hull etc do not belong there.

I think a scaled down SPL would work.
Look how crazy it is. The current OF teams are probably the poorest teams for years. Rangers get a 10 point deduction and they are still miles ahead of the others. No contest, no fun.
The EPL was beginning to go that way but Spurs gaining and Chelski faltering has given it a much needed boost

There is a fair bit of quality in the SPL but no depth. A couple of injured players to the likes of St Johnstone or Motherwell is a disaster.

by mystiroakey Thu 16 Feb 2012, 8:31 pm

the epl has faltered abit in europe thats for sure- however still doing ok and i am sure this year is just a blip- the chances are we will win a europa cup anyway!

however that has only increased the exitement of the prem, been some cracking games last couple of years, top teams lose one week to a lesser team, next week they win 7-0 against a rival!

id be happy to increase the epl's value by bringing them in- However i am not sure that the advantages would outweigh the negatives, well not in the short term anyway!

by Doon the Water Thu 16 Feb 2012, 8:34 pm

The thing I find quite amazing in all of the different threads regarding Rangers and EPL etc.
No one has mentioned the M word

Manchester.

by Alessandro Ciambella Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:00 pm

Celtic and Rangers would not make promotion from the Chanpionship.

I base this on the fact that a relegated premier league team who sold 14 players in the summer and lost their manager managed to progress further in Europe than Rangers and played better football than Celtic that earned them continental acclaim.

The Old Firm need to look at the Birmingham football policy and learn that you don't need to break the bank balance to gain acclaim from the continent.

Then they need to assemble a north Atlantic league with the best teams from Scandinavia so they can improve as clubs rather than fester in the SPL that they have ravaged.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:52 pm

mystiroakey wrote:the epl has faltered abit in europe thats for sure- however still doing ok and i am sure this year is just a blip- the chances are we will win a europa cup anyway!

however that has only increased the exitement of the prem, been some cracking games last couple of years, top teams lose one week to a lesser team, next week they win 7-0 against a rival!

id be happy to increase the epl's value by bringing them in- However i am not sure that the advantages would outweigh the negatives, well not in the short term anyway!

Based on one season?? Please see my earlier post re the EPL's dominance of Europe of the past 7 seasons. On the assumption Arsenal are now out and guessing Chelsea won't get passed QFs, this is the first season in 8 years that the EPL hasn't had a Champions League finalist! No other country can even come close to matching that record. I don't think any country has EVER had 3 out of 4 semi-finalists in the competition as the EPL did only a couple of years ago.

by mystiroakey Thu 16 Feb 2012, 9:56 pm

maybe you should read the part straight after what you highlighted in bold! lol

by TopHat24/7 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:04 pm

Doon the Water wrote:A few hard facts. [To shut up the numptie posters]

Biggest ever years average attendances.

EPL
Wigan [2006] 20.2k
Swansea [1949] 22.5k
QPR [1976] 23.8k
Norwich [1973] 28.4k
Fulham [1950] 33.0k

Chumps
Leeds [2002] 39.7
Ipswich [1977] 26.6
Barnsley [1948] 21.2.

Scots biggest attandance [not average]

Rangers [1939] 118.5k
Celtic [1938] 83.0k
Hearts [1932] 53.3k

European 2010/2011 Season average attendances

Rangers [12th] 48.9k
Celtic 45.3k.

Man U [4th] Aresnal [8th] above Rangers

Newcastle and Man C above Celtic

To sum up there are two EPL teams who average higher gates than Rangers
There are four EPL clubs with higher average gates than Celtic.

Bigger clubs with higher average attendances (e.g. Saints w/ 30k+) still got relegated (twice) so attendance doesn't mean much, not sure on the relevance.

Also, not sure where you got your stats from, but according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_attendances_of_European_football_clubs Rangers were actually 22nd on 45,305 and Celtic got 48,968.

by Doon the Water Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:13 pm

Looks like someone must have typed the wrong info into wikipedia

by TopHat24/7 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:56 pm

Doon the Water wrote:Looks like someone must have typed the wrong info into wikipedia

Wouldn't be the first time, posting your own source would help though.

Football365 also has Rangers at 45,305 whereas Celtic are in at 48,399. http://stats.football365.com/2011/SCO/PR/attend.html which more likely suggests you typed something in wrong, got your OF clubs the wrong way round.

by mystiroakey Thu 16 Feb 2012, 10:59 pm

doon i have to admit your attendances are a little bit odd- you measured average attendances for epl clubs then highest for scottish clubs..

anyway its all immaterial- we all know if there were in the epl they have more than the neccesary fanbase- and that would in all possiblity grow as well

by Doon the Water Fri 17 Feb 2012, 8:46 am

I can't find the site I got the information from but looking around other sites I notice that they are all over the place. Statistics and lies eh!
It was for season2010/2011

I must confess that I was surprised when I saw that Rangers were ahead of Celtic. Looking at other sites they have the numbers roughly the same but the other way round. I did say on my original post that the Scottish figures were not averages, I could not find them for year 2010/11.

Mind you 118,000 at Ibrox and 134,000 at Hampden were pretty impressive. Those were the days when over two million lived in Glasgow now it is about 600,000.

by TopHat24/7 Fri 17 Feb 2012, 10:03 am

Yeh, attendences back in the day with terraces were huge - think Wembley used to get 100k+ too.

Either way, for the record, I think the OF would do fine in the Prem, occassional bad season in the bottom half of the table but generally top half, occassionally challenging for Europe (once they've had a few seasons to settle in).

I do think it would be the death of Scottish football though. When researching those attendence figures I was shocked at how poor attendences outside the OF are even in the SPL.

by Celtic Warrior Fri 17 Feb 2012, 10:16 am

The only thing I would say about that is that fans MIGHT go back if they were in a more competitive league.

You never know, if they thought they were in with a better shot of winning they may be more willing to back their team.

by liverbnz Fri 17 Feb 2012, 10:30 am

If we ignore the current situation for the sake of arguement, after a few years of getting used to the slighty higher paced games and undoubted scrutiny of everything they do on and off the field, I think Rangers and Celtic would be up in the top half comfortabley. They have huge fanbases in the UK at least (unsure of the appeal worldwide), they have substansial gate receipts each week - more than most the PL and they would then be bennefiting from the TV and sponsorship money that comes with the PL and in the end it's mostly about the money. If managed well, both clubs could definitely make a mark.

I've probably trodden over old ground here as the thread is 7 pages old, but just giving my POV on it.

by liverbnz Fri 17 Feb 2012, 10:35 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
I don't think any country has EVER had 3 out of 4 semi-finalists in the competition as the EPL did only a couple of years ago.

La Liga in 2000. Valencia, Real Madrid and Barcelona. 3/4 clubs from each country have only been allowed to qualify since then so the stat looks slightly better than the reality.

by Doon the Water Fri 17 Feb 2012, 12:17 pm

Out of interest Hearts got a crowd of 58,000 at Murrayfield a couple of years ago when they played Barcelona.

Liver...I don't think they would have any trouble with the pace of the game [have you seen any Scottish football?] but the general ball skill levels would need to improve.

by super_realist Fri 17 Feb 2012, 12:20 pm

Doon the Water wrote:Out of interest Hearts got a crowd of 58,000 at Murrayfield a couple of years ago when they played Barcelona.

Liver...I don't think they would have any trouble with the pace of the game [have you seen any Scottish football?] but the general ball skill levels would need to improve.

but probably about 10k the following week against St.Mirren or whoever they were playing.

by Celtic Warrior Fri 17 Feb 2012, 12:23 pm

To be fair, there is a big difference between attracting a crowd to see a team like Barcelona as opposed to St. Mirren, Dunfermline, Motherwell etc

by liverbnz Fri 17 Feb 2012, 12:25 pm

Doon the Water wrote:Liver...I don't think they would have any trouble with the pace of the game [have you seen any Scottish football?] but the general ball skill levels would need to improve.

I'm not sure Doon. Old Firm games aside I think they are a step off the PL for time you get on the ball. I'm not saying this makes the PL superior, it just takes that bit extra to get used to. Of course, really good players will use that to their advantage.

by TopHat24/7 Fri 17 Feb 2012, 12:35 pm

Celtic Warrior wrote:To be fair, there is a big difference between attracting a crowd to see a team like Barcelona as opposed to St. Mirren, Dunfermline, Motherwell etc

Yeh, other attendences are appalling. When researching I noticed that only half the SPL clubs could more than half fill their stadia on average and half of them had lower average attendences than Oxford United who are in League 2, England's fourth level division!

by super_realist Fri 17 Feb 2012, 12:44 pm

Precisely the reason it will never be a big draw. It's too expensive to watch and the quality isn't high enough, plus there are cheaper alternatives for the football fan to take in.

Summer football might help, and perhaps a switch to an early evening (6:30pm) only football in this summer period. A match at 3pm just gets in the way of the whole day.

by johnson2 Fri 17 Feb 2012, 1:19 pm

super_realist wrote:Precisely the reason it will never be a big draw. It's too expensive to watch and the quality isn't high enough, plus there are cheaper alternatives for the football fan to take in.

Summer football might help, and perhaps a switch to an early evening (6:30pm) only football in this summer period. A match at 3pm just gets in the way of the whole day.

I like the idea of evening kickoffs, but because of the binge drinking culture of the UK that will never happen. Sad state of a affairs really.

by Doon the Water Fri 17 Feb 2012, 5:36 pm

The 3pm KO is a throwback to when the 'working man' used to work until noon on Saturdays.

Don't you just love the title working man.
It implies that judges, lawyers, accountants and bankers etc don't work.

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