The Wales vs England bickering thread, 2012 - PONIES ALLOWED!

[TycroesOsprey]

First topic message reminder :

OK, every year we see threads that actually contain really good rugby discussion derailed by the ongoing Wales vs England bickering and WUMMING! I will name no names. I guess we have all been guilty .

Since most of the general bickering comes from the respective fans of Wales and England ; I thought I would create a thread for it in an effort to keep decent rugby discussion relatively WUM free in other threads.

So I will begin, An article in the Western Mail today pointed out how England are copying Gatlands youthful approach with a squad that has an average age of 25 and 428 caps between them.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/01/12/analysis-new-look-england-follow-youthful-wales-lead-91466-30105333/

Wales probable squad (once you have taken out Shane and Wellies from the World cup squad with their probable replacements) lines up at the same average age and about 820 caps between them. England are copying Wales' approcach but are way behind. Clearly all things point to a wales victory in HQ this year.

Discuss

post script

Please may I emphasise that this is a bickering and banter thread, whilst mild wumming and banter are allowed please try not to stray over the line of decency.

[Guest]

When Wales get it wrong they get the wooden spoon in the 6N and fail to get out of their group at the RWC despite being the only team to play all their games at home!!

Is Nantes in Wales? Funny what you learn off these websites.

[Woodstock]

Fair play to england, they invent all these games and then let others win. They do themselves win and then watch the date slowly roll down as the years roll by.

Men's tennis champ Fred Perry 1930's
Wendyball 1966
Union 2003

Get my meaning.

I am sure we will get some englishman hitting back at a nation with less population than some council estates in London now hahahahaha

For such a huge population england don't half make fools of themselves in Union. A little like the Irish provinces, full of foreign stars. England are a disgrace to be honest but bless them they are triers

[HERSH]

At least we win, what’s your excuse seeing as it was Britain that invented most of these games?

[english warrior]

Woodstock- What other nation in these islands have won a world cup in a major recognised Global sport ? yes, thats right just little old England !!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I presume Rugby Sevens doesn't count to you, Warrior?

[mystiroakey]

Fair play to england, they invent all these games and then let others win. They do themselves win and then watch the date slowly roll down as the years roll by.

Men's tennis champ Fred Perry 1930's
Wendyball 1966
Union 2003

Get my meaning.

I am sure we will get some englishman hitting back at a nation with less population than some council estates in London now hahahahaha

For such a huge population england don't half make fools of themselves in Union. A little like the Irish provinces, full of foreign stars. England are a disgrace to be honest but bless them they are triers

you mention sports like tennis and team sports like football- yet you forget to mention golf(yep invented by scots, still thats immaterial to your point) and cricket..

i wonder why?

[HERSH]

I presume Rugby Sevens doesn't count to you, Warrior?

Fair play they did well to win that, the only issue was that most of the other teams had deli bellies.

[RubyGuby]

And lets not forget that other International sport that's on the rise - Bog Snorkling

Probably be in the Olympics next time round

[HERSH]

It's a shame 7's wasn't

the GB team would have been awesome

[mystiroakey]

yeah it would have been a great add

[miteyironpaw]

If I were Welsh, I wouldn't be bringing up Rugby 7's as a tool to leverage pride. Wales usually fight it out for a plate semi final against Kenya and Canada whilst England are footing it with Samoa, Fiji and New Zealand.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Mitey, I get the impression that if you were Welsh you'd have topped yourself out of shame by now.

[HERSH]

If I were Welsh, I wouldn't be bringing up Rugby 7's as a tool to leverage pride. Wales usually fight it out for a plate semi final against Kenya and Canada whilst England are footing it with Samoa, Fiji and New Zealand.

[HERSH]

It probably wouldn't happen anyway as Wales and Scotland would feel threatened having to wear the Union Flag for a short competition.

It would have been great if the British Lions were allowed to take part in the Olympic 7's

[miteyironpaw]

It probably wouldn't happen anyway as Wales and Scotland would feel threatened having to wear the Union Flag for a short competition.

It would have been great if the British Lions were allowed to take part in the Olympic 7's

I'm not sure there would be any Welsh or Scots in a British Lions 7's team HERSH, so it might not be an issue.

[HERSH]

Thats true but lets not be too hard on our Welsh friends, George North would make a very good 7's player plus his half English.

[mystiroakey]

well look there is no theoritical reason why we couldnt have the odd northen irish players in a team gb either- lol that would wind a few people up

[HERSH]

Don't go there!

[miteyironpaw]

Anybody else think that Wales might be peaking too early anyway?

I see Wales now simiarly to Ireland in the last RWC cycle - a golden generation who fell just short of greatness.

They seem to have some fine finishers in the team at the moment, but as we know the impact of larger players tends to fade very quickly, speed is the first thing to go, injuries tend to plague these sorts of players which we may be witnessing already. Defenses get used to the one dimensional power game and can be countered simply by adding beef to the mid field.

Tight forward stocks are starting to age and there seems like not much depth to replace them looking at age group and A side results.

2015 is a long way off and whilst by contrast England are building a youthful side and dominating the development age group I worry that Wales might be left behind after a brief flirtation with success.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

We haven't won anything yet, Mitey, so I hope we haven't peaked yet. The average age of the squad suggests the best years of the players lie ahead, but you're right to point out that we haven't found adequate replacements for Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones when they bow out.

[damngoodOvalball]

When Wales get it wrong they get the wooden spoon in the 6N and fail to get out of their group at the RWC despite being the only team to play all their games at home!!

Is Nantes in Wales? Funny what you learn off these websites.

Ok my mistake and I admit it. Wales did venture to France to join the rest of the teams once. Presumably the lack of home advantage was so bad they they decided to allow Fiji to knock them out in the group stages in order to avoid having to take any further part in the tournament.

Thankfully that was sorted out by the last World Cup although the inability to beat any of the big 3 down south wasnt

[miteyironpaw]

We haven't won anything yet, Mitey, so I hope we haven't peaked yet. The average age of the squad suggests the best years of the players lie ahead, but you're right to point out that we haven't found adequate replacements for Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones when they bow out.

Yes, this is my point exactly luckless, do you reckon those guys will make it through to 2015 and still be on top of their game? I know the RWC has a bit of history now of being won by guys who popular concensus have "over the hill".

What about Roberts and North? will these guys retain their X-factor for 4 long years? and will they suffer from JW/DC syndrome, where their greatless precludes developing depth in the position? will they be susceptible to creating a hole too big to fill if they should be struck down with injury nearer the time?

[HERSH]

"will they be susceptible to creating a hole too big to fill if they should be struck down with injury nearer the time?"


There is always someone willing to fill a hole!

[Morgannwg]

When Wales get it wrong they get the wooden spoon in the 6N and fail to get out of their group at the RWC despite being the only team to play all their games at home!!

Is Nantes in Wales? Funny what you learn off these websites.

Ok my mistake and I admit it. Wales did venture to France to join the rest of the teams once. Presumably the lack of home advantage was so bad they they decided to allow Fiji to knock them out in the group stages in order to avoid having to take any further part in the tournament.

Thankfully that was sorted out by the last World Cup although the inability to beat any of the big 3 down south wasnt

Jesus christ! Are people (English) still going about Fiji? I thought we 66 nilled them but perhaps I just dreamt the whole thing.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

That's for Gatland and Co. to worry about, not me. I'm just happy to see us playing well and winning the odd game. And there's time between now and 2015 for players just as good as if not better than those you mention to come through.

[english warrior]

England have world cup wins in
1) Football
2)Rugby
3) Cricket

They have also won a World cup in 7's but i wouldn't stoop to such depths of claiming it, out of Embarressment, but can quite understand why a Welsh person would do so, as they grab desperately, for whatever crumbs of comfort they can. But lets face it 7's is a bit of froth that doesn't count, now does it?

By the way have Wales, Scotland or Ireland ever even been in a final of a World team sport competition, because i can't think of one despite the Wesl barracking of English success ?

[miteyironpaw]

It's a real conundrum for a coach though isn't it? History proves that continuity wins big tournaments, but that lack of depth also loses the very same.

If Wales sweep to grandslam glory this year, would Gatland be inclined to ignore a young promising star who may make all the difference in 4 years time given the right opportunities?

[miteyironpaw]

England have world cup wins in
1) Football
2)Rugby
3) Cricket

They have also won a World cup in 7's but i wouldn't stoop to such depths of claiming it, out of Embarressment, but can quite understand why a Welsh person would do so, as they grab desperately, for whatever crumbs of comfort they can. But lets face it 7's is a bit of froth that doesn't count, now does it?

By the way have Wales, Scotland or Ireland ever even been in a final of a World team sport competition, because i can't think of one despite the Wesl barracking of English success ?

Careful EW, they'll spot that the world cup in cricket was 20-20, and compare it to rugby 7's.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

If Wales sweep to grandslam glory this year, would Gatland be inclined to ignore a young promising star who may make all the difference in 4 years time given the right opportunities?

I don't think he would be. But I don't know. I'd like to find out!

[HERSH]

Please look after Ben Morgan this weekend Scarlets.

[damngoodOvalball]

Im just watching a Welsh (Robert Croft) realistically talking up an Englishman (Alistair Cook) without a hint of chippiness on Sky Sports.

Its truly extraordinary to see especially as he is actually relatively articulate.

[Guest]

Is he being released to us for this weekend then Hersh?

[damngoodOvalball]

Is he being released to us for this weekend then Hersh?

Yes although it has more to do with the fact he plays for a 'foreign' club and hence the EPS agreement re player availability is irrelevant. It is not necessarilly an indicator that he will not start against Wales

[Guest]

ooh yay, glad he's available for us then. We should play him, especially as we're facing Leinster this weekend, he'll be very much needed.

[damngoodOvalball]

from an England perspective, I would want him to play against Leinster as well, assuming he doesnt get injured.
The game time against a v good team would do him a lot of good

[mystiroakey]

England have world cup wins in
1) Football
2)Rugby
3) Cricket

They have also won a World cup in 7's but i wouldn't stoop to such depths of claiming it, out of Embarressment, but can quite understand why a Welsh person would do so, as they grab desperately, for whatever crumbs of comfort they can. But lets face it 7's is a bit of froth that doesn't count, now does it?

By the way have Wales, Scotland or Ireland ever even been in a final of a World team sport competition, because i can't think of one despite the Welsh barracking of English success ?

wales won the same 20/20 cricket WC that england did- cant remeber many welsh in the team but they won it!!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Very true, Mysti!

[Guest]

Sure Alistair Cook has a Welsh mam, so he's half welsh, tis good enough

[mystiroakey]

[HERSH]

from an England perspective, I would want him to play against Leinster as well, assuming he doesnt get injured.
The game time against a v good team would do him a lot of good

I agree, plus he'll burn some more calories as we try and get his fitness levels up for the following weekend.

[HERSH]

Seeing as Wales play inside (at home) and rugby is an outdoor game, should they even be in the 6 nations?

I think Georgia could take there place and Wales could play in the SH quad nations or whatever it is these days, they need the practice taking on the SH boys down-under.

[HERSH]

Does anyone else think it gives them an unfair advantage?

[mystiroakey]

in honesty probally not, it happens in all team sports- teams do there best to make conditions at home help them

[slartibartfast]

Does anyone else think it gives them an unfair advantage?

Do you think it does ?

[Shifty]

Does anyone else think it gives them an unfair advantage?

No because both teams must agree to have the roof closed, it is in the 6 Nations rules that Wales are not allowed to use it as an advantage.

[Cadair Idris]

Does anyone else think it gives them an unfair advantage?

No because both teams must agree to have the roof closed, it is in the 6 Nations rules that Wales are not allowed to use it as an advantage.

Yes but sometimes opposition coaches are foolish enough to agree to have it closed - like Robinson last weekend.

For big games it's as much the cauldron like atmosphere it creates as the playing conditions that give us an advantage when it's closed. I'll never forget the grand slam match vs france in 08 when it definitely helped.

To be honest I've always been surprised it's allowed for 6N games, even by agreement. Not complaining though...

[EnglishReign]

Although, everyone in Wales expected England to demand the roof be open for last year's match. However, England agreed to have it closed much to every Welshman's surprise and they never recovered. Cauldron of hate, it was not.

26-19, thank you and goodnight.

[HERSH]

why did Robinson agree to have it open?

[mystiroakey]

He said it would help them play the way there want to and that is to play expansive rugby.


I know it sounds nuts

[Cadair Idris]

why did Robinson agree to have it open?

I guess he thought he was making a bold statement about the attacking game scotland were going to play - beating us at our own game. Madness when their strength lies in the pack. But they did score a try at last to be fair - maybe thanks to the closed roof!

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