Ireland vs Italy TEAM ANNOUNCED

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

I know it's early in the week for this to be up but thought I'd get it going anyway.
From what I understand we have no injuries to worry about bar Sexton and it looks like he should be declared fit to start.

The Italians have been looking quite good I think this year. They weren't bad against France and for huge parts of the game against England they were the better team but lost out.

Parisse and Masi are in great form in my opinion and they are supplemented by some good work by the predictably grisselled Italian pack although they have lost Castrogiovanni and their 9-10 look shaky.

From an Irish perspective, things are disappointing at present, poor tactics have lost us a number of games and the team don't seem to know what way to play and our consistently on different wavelengths. Great players like Ferris, O'Brien, O'Connell, Sexton and others are not turning up to play in Green the way they do for their provinces.

Score predictions?
Who you would pick in the team and why?
Italian weakness' and strengths?
Irish weakness' and strengths?
Fears?
Hopes?
Is Declan Kidney in serious danger at this stage? What would be his fate were we to lose this game?

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

As was my response. Personally I'm not happy with Deccie's selections this 6 Nations either.

However as I have continued to say I'm judging him based on the Summer tour.

The summer tour has to produce some changes and some forward momentum or Deccie seriously has to go. Such a wealth of talent and he is restricting the team.

Its about time someone came on here and wrote down all the changes we have actually seen under Deccie.

His changes could be made more often, but its not the lack of new faces thats the problem really is it?

Its the style of play and attitude.

I think we are all wishing for another wonder kid. Do we really have any? And if so, is it really true we should 'nurture' them? Or do we get more from showing faith in them early on? Or are we just naive in hoping we pick a new face and expect them to score a hatrick of tries on their debut.

Deccie is the problem, maybe so too is the players attitudes. The selection, in itself is a very small part of our lack of sucess. IMHO

Who are we playing in the summer?

New Zealand. is it just the three tests though?

For a start i would not have picked ROG or D'Arcy. A Madigan or Keately in place of ROG and possibly Spence in place of D'Arcy. That would at least show me that deccie was looking to the future.

Yes, New Zealand.

And are they considered important? I'd say so.

And are they considered must wins if can at all even though the likelihood is remote? I say they will be deemed very important especially if we have a bad Six Nations as rankings will be importnat this year - no?

So given all that, my initial point was that I don't think much experimenting will be done in New Zealand. And even if the regulars are given the first test and don't succeed; they'll be given the opportunity to get into a rhythm to perhaps win one of the other two.

Methinks, this is probably more of an opportunity to work on selections (this Six Nations) than holding out any hope that Kidney will attempt to beat New Zealand once, twice or three times with new combinations.

Stand we are also playing the Barbaraians.

I really don't see point in Spence in place of Darcy. He is useless at 12 for Ulster. McFadden instead of Darcy I could agree with.

Picking Keatley over ROG is actually a really really really really bad move. If he can't get ahead of ROG for Munster why should he for Ireland. Let him be playing all the A matches and have him ready if we need him but don't cheapen the jersey.

We should have been looking at having Donnacha Ryan ahead of O'Callaghan, Fergus McFadden ahead of Gordon Darcy and Keith Earls ahead of Brian O'Driscoll as well as new faces like Peter O'Mahony on the bench.

That would have been real progress based on ability and not just change for change sake. A new centre partnership and a new lock.

However the O'Callaghan and Darcy selections should have been easy calls for him to make. Both dropped. No other changes were needed.

red_stag wrote:Stand we are also playing the Barbaraians.

I really don't see point in Spence in place of Darcy. He is useless at 12 for Ulster. McFadden instead of Darcy I could agree with.

Picking Keatley over ROG is actually a really really really really bad move. If he can't get ahead of ROG for Munster why should he for Ireland. Let him be playing all the A matches and have him ready if we need him but don't cheapen the jersey.

We should have been looking at having Donnacha Ryan ahead of O'Callaghan, Fergus McFadden ahead of Gordon Darcy and Keith Earls ahead of Brian O'Driscoll as well as new faces like Peter O'Mahony on the bench.

That would have been real progress based on ability and not just change for change sake. A new centre partnership and a new lock.

However the O'Callaghan and Darcy selections should have been easy calls for him to make. Both dropped. No other changes were needed.

Spence played very well at 12 against the dragons. Although I don't think he is a 12, he would do a better job than D'Arcy. Mainly because he knows how to put in a big tackle, and rarely misses any. But yes, I don't want to see him at 12. He is a 13.

Also Ryan must have that war face of his after seeing that team. What more could he possibly do to ask for selection? He has been outstanding and is exactly the player we need.

red_stag wrote:Stand we are also playing the Barbaraians.

1/I really don't see point in Spence in place of Darcy. He is useless at 12 for Ulster. 2/McFadden instead of Darcy I could agree with.

3/Picking Keatley over ROG is actually a really really really really bad move. If he can't get ahead of ROG for Munster why should he for Ireland. Let him be playing all the A matches and have him ready if we need him but don't cheapen the jersey.

We should have been looking at having Donnacha Ryan ahead of O'Callaghan, Fergus McFadden ahead of Gordon Darcy and Keith Earls ahead of Brian O'Driscoll as well as new faces like Peter O'Mahony on the bench.

That would have been real progress based on ability and not just change for change sake. A new centre partnership and a new lock.

However the O'Callaghan and Darcy selections should have been easy calls for him to make. Both dropped. No other changes were needed.

number 1. Spence in the squad in place of D'Arcy
number 2. McFadden is already in the squad but should be starting ahead of Darcy
number 3. I said a Keatley or Madigan. Either of them is worth looking into more than hanging onto ROG.

12 may not be Spence's best position but he is a long long way from being useless in that position

Billy - I'm not sure we are "hanging onto ROG". He is still playing very well. I think it is "change for change sake". I fail to see how playing backup plays benefits the team when a better player gets dropped.

Geoff et al - useless is an exaggeration yes, but Darcy is a better 12 than him. That comes into the "change for change sake" category.

Changes should actually benefit the team as a whole. Change for change sake is as bad as retaining people due to past glories.

Ireland should have had O'Callaghan and Darcy both out of the match day squad. If we saw that for 5 matches - that would have been real change. It isn't about bringing every Tom,Dick and Harry into the team. Its about making serious changes.

Lock - O'Connell + Ryan. Backup cover: Tuohy or Toner

Centre - McFadden + Earls. Backup cover: Sexton (can move from 10) and Bowe

We don't need to scourge the team but address key areas. Had Kidney simply got rid of Darcy and O'Callaghan there would be no calls for all these over the top changes.

You got me again stag. I just want to change for change sake. I am not at all thinking about the future of Irish rugby

Stag what makes D'Arcy a better 12 than Spence? I entirely disagree, and Spence isn't even a 12.

In regards to ROG, if he was the still the starting 10 for Ireland then yes he should be there but he is not. I dont believe that the way to go forward for Ireland is to have a 35 year old understudy. Get the young guys in, be it Madigan or Keatley.

Spence is a very good player, i said that he should be in the squad, not starting at 12, however, i do believe that he would do a better job than D'Arcy is there right now.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
We have to embrace a style! 1 style! Then make it our own.
Is there any way we can win playing the defensive 09 style?

No.

We could win playing the defensive style of 2009. However we aren't even doing that.

Back then we had a plan. We have no plan at all now by look of things.

However bear in mind we are basing this on just one match against Wales. Things could be very different after a few matches. Bear in mind Wales had an extra game in Decemeber against Australia so were likely to have a more definite plan.

However we CANNOT accept another game like Wales was.

I disagree Stag.
Our defensive style was based on kicking not passing and tackling like crazy along with the BOD-Darcy 4th and 5th backrow idea.
If we kick the ball away now, 3 years on, we will not get it back as easily because the rules make it harder to win the ball back, no groundhog in the tackle approach which meant BOD and Darcy had to reinvent their games. The point one has to release the tackled player now is a huge thorn in our 2009 strategy, it would not work.

The real question is, why are we not embracing modern attacking rugby completely?
Why are we not moving on to a style that will suit us (somewhat), be a definite style rather than a grey area and lastly is one with proven success.

Eire, I am not doubting that you want Ireland to do well. I am suggesting that you want to run before you can walk.

If you were guaranteed that:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
McFadden, Earls
Trimble, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Court, Toner, O'Mahony, Reddan, O'Gara, Fitzgerald

was going to be the core squad for the 6 Nations would you be as adamant that we start parachuting in these other players? No you'd more than likely be pleased to see progress made.

Kidney didn't make the calls he should have and now people are getting over the top about it.

Rory - a matter of opinion. I think he was a very good 13 last year and this year got mucked about and shoved in at 12. Losing Paddy Wallace cost Ulster badly in Welford Road. Spence is a poor 12 IMO.

I think a lot of the options available would do a better job than D'Arcy. But of course that would require thinking outside of the conservative box.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
The real question is, why are we not embracing modern attacking rugby completely?
Why are we not moving on to a style that will suit us (somewhat), be a definite style rather than a grey area and lastly is one with proven success.

Agree with you entirely. The lack of a system is the biggest problem.

Have you seen him at 12 much though stag this season? At the very least Spence at 12 is defensively solid, putting in huge hits on players most people struggle with. Something D'Arcy can't claim to be able to do. Spence hasn't got the awareness to play 12. Neither does D'Arcy currently. Spence also would offer more going forward than D'Arcy. For a lot of those things I have said, you could substitute Spence out and put in another option. D'Arcy's constant selection is a complete joke.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think a lot of the options available would do a better job than D'Arcy. But of course that would require thinking outside of the conservative box.

Rory, I think that a combination of 10 ROG, 12 Sexton, 13 McFadden could have done very well against Wales. We used Sexton at 12 in the warm up tests and against Oz and we haven't seen it again. Every time its worked well.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Spence hasn't got the awareness to play 12.

Why do you want him at 12 so?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: D'Arcy's constant selection is a complete joke.

I agree 100% on this. However I would say that Jonathan Sexton, Paddy Wallace, Fergus McFadden and James Downey are better choices at 12 than Spence.

Munster also has to move on from the old ways. The way they used to win games (although ROG can still kick his points) will not work in the modern game, and their roster of players is changing. Many of their younger players are young, exciting and creative (POM, Hanrahan, Earls, Zebo). You can see they are much more attack minded these days as well. Which is great to see. But why can't Ireland move on??

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Spence hasn't got the awareness to play 12.

Why do you want him at 12 so?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: D'Arcy's constant selection is a complete joke.

I agree 100% on this. However I would say that Jonathan Sexton, Paddy Wallace, Fergus McFadden and James Downey are better choices at 12 than Spence.

Where did I say I want him at 12? I said he would be a better option than D'Arcy, nothing more. All of those options (except Downey, just no) would be much better choices at 12 than Spence. Because Spence is a 13, not a 12.

McFadden at 13 is also a joke of a selection. His defence is shambles there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Munster also has to move on from the old ways. The way they used to win games (although ROG can still kick his points) will not work in the modern game, and their roster of players is changing. Many of their younger players are young, exciting and creative (POM, Hanrahan, Earls, Zebo). You can see they are much more attack minded these days as well. Which is great to see. But why can't Ireland move on??

Agree 100% that Munster need to move on. I would have liked to seen Keatley at 12 and Hanrahan getting game time there too.

As to why Ireland can't move on - my feeling is that Kidney is trying to keep everyone happy and it wont work. You cant play Musnter, Leinster and Ulsters style all in one match. It literally looks like he is saying - "we'll pick the lads doing well in Heinken Cup and sure they'll be fine". He needs to figure out how he wants to play and pick players who allow that game plan to work.

Gatland with Wales has done that very well in 2011 and in 2008 when he took over.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Spence hasn't got the awareness to play 12.

Why do you want him at 12 so?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: D'Arcy's constant selection is a complete joke.

I agree 100% on this. However I would say that Jonathan Sexton, Paddy Wallace, Fergus McFadden and James Downey are better choices at 12 than Spence.

Where did I say I want him at 12? I said he would be a better option than D'Arcy, nothing more. All of those options (except Downey, just no) would be much better choices at 12 than Spence. Because Spence is a 13, not a 12.

Thats fine. I agree with all of that - I do think Downey is a better 12 than Spence but not a better player.

I was responding to Billy who was (I thought) suggesting that we should be playing 10 Sexton, 12 Spence.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Spence hasn't got the awareness to play 12.

Why do you want him at 12 so?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: D'Arcy's constant selection is a complete joke.

I agree 100% on this. However I would say that Jonathan Sexton, Paddy Wallace, Fergus McFadden and James Downey are better choices at 12 than Spence.

James downey?! Thats a cracker! Spence has more talent in his big toe than Downey has in his whole body! ....

I'd like to see McFadden get a chance but there's not much between him and McFadden imo and at 21 Spence will get a lot better.

I am not a Downey fan tbh. Very disappointed that Munster signed him when they have Hanrahan. Yes, he is young and not experienced, but I would bet if he was welsh he would be a first team player for his region by now and would be named as the next big thing at 12.

Rodders - Spence is definitely a more talented rugby player. However it is a 12 who needs to play at 12 and to me Downey is certainly capable of being 5th or 6th choice in his position.

Sometimes a 1 dimensional player can do a good job - see Joe Worsley.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I am not a Downey fan tbh. Very disappointed that Munster signed him when they have Hanrahan. Yes, he is young and not experienced, but I would bet if he was welsh he would be a first team player for his region by now and would be named as the next big thing at 12.

I agree with this also. Im getting alarmed Rory - normally we dont agree as much as this.

McFadden and Earls are stop gap players in the centre, neither will ever be top class in my opinion and they are just keeping the jersey warm for the real next generation: Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran. All far more talented players.

I rather have Spence at 12 than McFadden at 13.
Having said that neither would be in their best position.

Other than experience I do not see what D'Arcy offers at 12 that Spence couldn't.
Spence would also be a better physical presence.

Earls to me is top class, but not at centre. I still see him as a 15. Any time I have seen him there, he has looked extremely dangerous. Always thought of him as a young Cullen when he started out.

That may be Geoff. I've seen him at 12 on three occasion this season and can't say I was impressed. It was a far cry from last year when he caught my attention at 13.

geoff998rugby wrote:I rather have Spence at 12 than McFadden at 13.
Having said that neither would be in their best position.

+ 1

Here is what I hope will happen at Ireland in terms of centres. BOD comes back at 12, helps his replacement come through big time. Who that will be, I don't know. I hope that it is Spence personally, because he would add the physicality in the back-line we need. Contrary to popular belief I feel that Spence is also a creative player, but he needs work as he is still very raw in that regard, and with his awareness. So BOD - Spence for me in the near future.

Then when BOD retires, hopefully at that point Hanrahan will be established in the Munster team, and we will know who our best 12 is. Marshall challenging, though so far IMO I feel that Hanrahan is the better player. However both are very similar in terms of how they operate at 12. Of course all this sort of talk is ridiculous though. I fear it will be D'Arcy and BOD for the next 2 years.

red_stag wrote:That may be Geoff. I've seen him at 12 on three occasion this season and can't say I was impressed. It was a far cry from last year when he caught my attention at 13.

In attack you are right, he hasn't impressed much, but this is considering that Spence has only played 13 twice this season (geoff/anyone else, correct me if i'm wrong). At 12 he is used as a crash ball centre. That isn't the type of player Spence is. However in terms of his defence and physicality I feel he is the best centre in Ireland. He just needs to play alongside Wallace again and show that attacking prowess he did last season. Gilroy is another player who has suffered in attack and needs to make a real comeback. Hmm.. makes me wonder, could there be a reason for this, why both Spence/Gilroy are less potent in attack for Ulster than they have been in the past?

He hasn't had as good a season in general though, Spence. Against the Dragons the other week was his best game at 12 though. He played quite well but was very poor in the Pro12 earlier in the season at 12. But I thought he was poor for the Wolfhounds there.

Conclusion; not an inside centre

Outside centre- outside a playmaker. He wouldn't do well with D'Arcy either. I don't think Spence is in the reckoning for Ireland yet at all. Cave is, when he gets fit again, and Wallace is. Wallace will be out of the reckoning after the tour if not earlier but Spence will only become an option when we have an established alternative to D'Arcy/Wallace and he's getting regular gametime at 13.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:At 12 he is used as a crash ball centre

At 12 he is used as a 12 and at 13 he's used as a 13. In either position he plays his natural game and whilst he may be more eye catching in attack at 13 due to the extra space, he can be very effective at 12 too if he's given decent ball to work with.

In both positions his defence is top class, in fact bar O'Driscoll he's the best defensive centre in the country by a distance.

Notch wrote:He hasn't had as good a season in general though, Spence.

Neither has Bowe so would you conclude that he's not a winger?

No, because he's performed well in that position.

My statement that Spence isn't a 12 and hasn't had a good season are not linked.

Arguably the fact he's playing 12 is a factor in his average form, but otherwise they are two seperate things.

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:At 12 he is used as a crash ball centre

At 12 he is used as a 12 and at 13 he's used as a 13. In either position he plays his natural game and whilst he may be more eye catching in attack at 13 due to the extra space, he can be very effective at 12 too if he's given decent ball to work with.

In both positions his defence is top class, in fact bar O'Driscoll he's the best defensive centre in the country by a distance.

Not all 12s play the same type of game though rodders. I don't feel Spence is a very good crash ball 12 (like Downey) nor is he a good playmaking 12 (like Wallace). I honestly don't see how he plays his natural game at 12 one bit.

He looks better at 13 because it suits his natural game most. He thrives in extra space. I would like to see him on the wing a bit more. I would see him in the same mould as a young Trimble. Very effective at 13 or on the wing, but a rough diamond who still has a wee bit of work to do on basics at times, whilst 12 limits him too much.

Against the Dragons he did very well offloading the ball and the strategy of him chasing restarts and challenging in the air worked really well.

roddersm wrote:McFadden and Earls are stop gap players in the centre, neither will ever be top class in my opinion and they are just keeping the jersey warm for the real next generation: Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran. All far more talented players.

Let me remind you that Ian Keatley was sensational at outhalf the year the U20s won the GS.

I agree Notch with your last two posts.

A young Trimble is exactly how I would describe Spence. He will be playing on the wing more next season I feel.

Also, I just found a link to the 6 nations match last year, against England. Going to give it a watch and see why we did so well in that game, and see how different our team is now. Will be interesting to see if we actually did play some creative, attacking rugby. I can't say I remember too well, but I do remember the back three of Trimble, Bowe and Earls being the best back three we have fielded IMO.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:McFadden and Earls are stop gap players in the centre, neither will ever be top class in my opinion and they are just keeping the jersey warm for the real next generation: Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran. All far more talented players.

Let me remind you that Ian Keatley was sensational at outhalf the year the U20s won the GS.

Thanks for that but I wasn't discussing Keatley.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:McFadden and Earls are stop gap players in the centre, neither will ever be top class in my opinion and they are just keeping the jersey warm for the real next generation: Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran. All far more talented players.

Let me remind you that Ian Keatley was sensational at outhalf the year the U20s won the GS.

Sorry sin but I don't get what relevance that has at all to what rodders is saying?