Ireland vs Italy TEAM ANNOUNCED

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

I know it's early in the week for this to be up but thought I'd get it going anyway.
From what I understand we have no injuries to worry about bar Sexton and it looks like he should be declared fit to start.

The Italians have been looking quite good I think this year. They weren't bad against France and for huge parts of the game against England they were the better team but lost out.

Parisse and Masi are in great form in my opinion and they are supplemented by some good work by the predictably grisselled Italian pack although they have lost Castrogiovanni and their 9-10 look shaky.

From an Irish perspective, things are disappointing at present, poor tactics have lost us a number of games and the team don't seem to know what way to play and our consistently on different wavelengths. Great players like Ferris, O'Brien, O'Connell, Sexton and others are not turning up to play in Green the way they do for their provinces.

Score predictions?
Who you would pick in the team and why?
Italian weakness' and strengths?
Irish weakness' and strengths?
Fears?
Hopes?
Is Declan Kidney in serious danger at this stage? What would be his fate were we to lose this game?

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As discussed elsewhere that is a matter of opinion - place kicking aside

Well, a couple of sessions with a kicking coach (Mark Taunton/ROG) might help sort that out.

As long as ROG doesn't throw a tantrum at another young talented fly half being brought into the squad..... I could imagine ROG tying young Jacksons shoelaces together or something......

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As discussed elsewhere that is a matter of opinion - place kicking aside

Well, a couple of sessions with a kicking coach (Mark Taunton/ROG) might help sort that out.

As long as ROG doesn't throw a tantrum at another young talented fly half being brought into the squad..... I could imagine ROG tying young Jacksons shoelaces together or something......

If thats what it takes to get PJ getting his kicks like JJ does, then so be it ....

Will Sexton be fit for the match?

He (Sexton) thinks he will. He should be. But really, even though I think he'd be the perfect choice for a perfect gameplan ...maybe we should all just relent and say the game many of us are looking for won't appear and therefore, the better, more stable, more reliable kicker is O'Gara. And he should start.

As a Munsterman i would naturally love to see ROG start, finish and win the game for Ireland but i cant see that as anything but a step backwards. It would just to reaffirm Kidney that his game plan is correct.

If Kidney stays with Ireland after the 6N then i hope to god that he starts to bring in Keatley and Madigan on the tour.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As discussed elsewhere that is a matter of opinion - place kicking aside

Well, a couple of sessions with a kicking coach (Mark Taunton/ROG) might help sort that out.

Jackson's problem isn't technique it is lack of game time - he has hardly played since October.
He has been on almost permanent standby for Ulster, and not been allowed to play in the AIB.

McKinney by contrast has started for the Ravens and been released to play AIB.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:bandwagon -

Please educate me here. Firstly why can Ferris and SOB not be the flankers in your opinion? Also in what way is POM anymore of a 7 than SOB? He hasn't shown anything that suggests he is a 7. And why would you drop SOB when he had a very good game against Wales? I feel those crying for a new 7, and especially those expecting it from POM, are the ones deluding themselves and are going to be in for a massive let down. Our back-row isn't the problem.

Also the fact is McFadden isn't ahead of D'Arcy. How can he be if he isn't ahead of him for Leinster?

I don't think these kind of threads are great for education Rory, 'ask the ref' is one of the few places where it works on here. I think (and it is just my deluded view) that SOB is way off form this season, last season he was pushing for his place for HCup games, to cement his place in the Irish squad and was flying. He is very much great with ball in hand at provincial level and developing his breakdown game at provincial level. I'd see that as ball in hand at international level but breakdown ability below international level at this time. From what I've seen of POM working at the breakdown, he is at least equal at the minute, possibly marginally better at slowing ball. So why not combine reward to someone who is coming through nicely and at the same time give SOB the kick up the back side he needs. I would go so far to say that POM would take more of a role player in that backrow and that would allow Ferris to get more chances to do what he does best. The only reason I'd have Heaslip in front of SOB are his defensive abilities are better and you don't get enough uplift on the attacking front to offset the defensive drop by putting SOB in front of Heaslip.
The 6Ns is predicated on the backrow play, breakdown is key, so is controlling tempo, securing quick ball and slowing the opposition. Our backrow, while great individuals, are not working as a unit. That impacts Murray getting quickball, allows defenses to rush up at our midfield.

On McF, I do think he is now in front of Darcy at Leinster. The only problem is that McF is also in front of EOM as cover for BOD so we end up in the bigger games with McF wearing 13 and Darcy in side because Joe seems to have in his mind that EOM at 13 is more of a liability than Darcy at 12. McF can only cover one position. If BOD was fit, McF would be ahead of Darcy for the 12 jersey at Leinster.

Geoff, your comments suggest to me that its a mental thing with his kicking in a match situation which is the problem as he would be getting plenty of kicking practice, but not game time. You are of the opinion that his all round game is good though, which does not add up if you say he is lacking gametime!

Some top class kicking coaching would not go astray. Marshall doesn't seem to take kicks, so that leaves JJ as the only reliable kicker which means he will have to play 80 minutes of every game.

As well as that, apparently it comes as a big surprise to a lot of young players, when they discover how much kicking practice the likes of Wilko & ROG put in.

I think if we start with ROG we have to play that slower, less subtle, older game plan. It will get us by Italy.

If we stick with this game plan however and continue not to move on and develop as a side we will lose match after match after match.

Quick attacking rugby is the way to win matches now.
We are not a big enough team to play S.African style rugby of bashing it up the middle and kicking corners.

It would be extremely stupid to revert back to that style, the style of 2009.

I think SOB has become a marked man by defenses and thus has changed his game and I think he is doing it very well. He is slowing down a lot more ball than people give him credit for and the same applies to the amount of ball he is winning. He doesn't make those runs he is famous for anymore because everyone is ready for him. Leinster use him very effectively, ireland are not. A reoccuring theme if you ask me.

Agree with the post above re: McFadden

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Quick attacking rugby is the way to win matches now.

So what happened against Wales? The backrow played like drains - and I think they could do with some invigorating. Peter O'Mahoney might provide the spark, just like SOB did last year.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Quick attacking rugby is the way to win matches now.

So what happened against Wales?

Something happened...but it was a few miles short of quick, attacking rugby? Why was that comment pushed back at Pete? You seem to suggest it was the gameplan and that the players themselves just couldn't effect it. Am I right?

So what should Ireland go with:

POM
SOB
Ferris

or

POM
SOB
Heaslip

Morning Billy, I think if Declan doesn't get things right you will be looking at something like

SOB
SOB
SOB

i am not looking forward to saturday. i think we will talk them up over the next few days put them on a pedestal and show them far too much respect.

I fear a dog fight to be honest. We are low on confidence and invention and the our game plan would be appear to strangle the life out of the opposition kick for territory and defend defend defend. if we cant get our hands on the football (sorry for the steady eddieism) it will be a tough game. i we play like we did v wales we will play right into their hands

id actually go for reddan for this one. murray did well v wales but i think we should try and move their forwards around the place and play at a high tempo. reddan may lack murrays size and power around the fringes but he operates at pace

we need to roar out of the blocks not start cagily. if we start well and get an early try or two we will be fine.

I think our backrow played ok against Wales although Ferris was annonymous with ball but great in defence. Sob made some yards and offloads and was good in defence. Heaslip was the only one who made "hard yards" through a set defence.

I think the tactics are hamstringing our backrow. They aren't being used intelligently out wide or coming around the blind side. We are running into brick walls and wondering why we aren't breaking through.

Analyse the game and you will see it can be made cyclic.

Quick ball=unset defences=easier to get over the gain line=quick ball

The rest of our team didn't contribute to this cycle and IMO most of the blame has to go on DK's shoulders. players not on same wavelength. not attacking with creativity or aggression or even ambition. Narrow defence. The ease in which Wales' bigger backs could counterruck our smaller ones while our forwards were trying to come across getting more and more tired.

Foolishness.

We have to embrace a style! 1 style! Then make it our own.
Is there any way we can win playing the defensive 09 style?

No.

Anyone got a link?

Afternoon Ruby, its looking that way sadly


Pete, cant agree more. The tactics seem too negative and it is stiffling the natural creativeness that some of Irelands players have.

There is no way Ireland will beat France, England or Scotland playing those tactics.

WillyGilly wrote:Anyone got a link?

Too?

There is nothing wrong with our back row, in fact they've been carrying us for 2 seasons.

What's wrong is we keep picking scrum-halves who can't utilise quick ball and centres who can't get across the gainline.

Even the all black back row would look lethargic in that enviroment. Our back row can't be expected to do all the carrying and win quick ball at the same time. There has to be a bit more in attack from other areas on the field.

eirebilly wrote:

WillyGilly wrote:Anyone got a link?

Too?

Team announcement?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
We have to embrace a style! 1 style! Then make it our own.
Is there any way we can win playing the defensive 09 style?

No.

We could win playing the defensive style of 2009. However we aren't even doing that.

Back then we had a plan. We have no plan at all now by look of things.

However bear in mind we are basing this on just one match against Wales. Things could be very different after a few matches. Bear in mind Wales had an extra game in Decemeber against Australia so were likely to have a more definite plan.

However we CANNOT accept another game like Wales was.

No Sorry Willy, i dont.

Isnt the announcement tomorrow?

Said on twitter it was today.

roddersm wrote:[b]There is nothing wrong with our back row, in fact they've been carrying us for 2 seasons. [/b

The backrow is down a fit Brian O'Driscoll. Thats whats wrong (with SOB being a bit below what he was last year and Ferris fairly quite).

It may have been the plan to keep the ball narrow, but when you see how poor our defence is out wide (I'm looking at you Tommy Bowe), you can understand why you would want to keep it tight. None of our small backs are going to stop North & Cutbert if they get a sniff.

willy it will be the same team v france mate and no issues with it really.

they will get a shot at redemption and hopefully earls adds cutting edge in midfield. by god we need him too.

i actually think our plan is the same red stag except we do not have BOD to turn too for moments of genius. When we throw the shackles off we can play thats what does my head in. heaslips try v france in grand slam year is a case in point.

i want a win and a performance. call me greedy.

15-9 v Italy in a snooze fest will not convince me we are going the right direction

Today, I heard

Sin é wrote:Geoff, your comments suggest to me that its a mental thing with his kicking in a match situation which is the problem as he would be getting plenty of kicking practice, but not game time. You are of the opinion that his all round game is good though, which does not add up if you say he is lacking gametime!

My assessment of his all round game being good is based on the fact that when he has played his game manangement has been good.

As for kicking I recall that in the previous year his place kicking was excellent.
2 poor showings as a place kicker for the U-20's does not suddenly make him a bad kicker.

This is a Six Nations, and apart from the gloom and the fact that the gloom only emanates from one game.... hard to imagine we only played one game after so much media and 606 coverage!... Anyway, apart from all that, we are still in with a shot at a Championship.

So how do we approach Italy?
Play it to win it? - We certainly need it.
Play it to return Lansdowne to something of a home ground? Yep, that would be nice.
Play it to get the media and fans off their backs? I'm sure they'd like to be able to read the sports pages again.

Or.... play it to give us the best chance at a Championship?

If it's the last one, then none of the other ones should count. Wales will be a heavy scoring side, or at least a regular scoring one going on the evidence of their first two games. France know when they need tries and can turn into a ravenous beast if they think they need them. England too proved last year that humiliating poor Italy at home was much more than a celebration of Ashton splashes but also an attempt to put some distance between them and their prospective challengers.

Ireland not only need to win, they need to be ruthless and keep scoring, if they can. No room for sitting back and cruising through a final 20 or 30 minutes, soaking up the usual defensive pressure. This game will tell me if Kidney is serious about the Six Nations and whether he does the maths on permutations at the end if no clear cut winner is evident from games won.

We've fallen before because of overly casual low scoring games against poorer sides. If Italy prove poor then we have a duty to go for their jugular. If we prove poor again, they'll certainly be aiming for ours.

Italy have looked very poor so we need to put them to the sword to stay in with a shout of taking the title on points difference.

They don't have a decent place kicker, their pack isn't as feasome as it was and they lack quality at half back.

Theres no need to talk them up. If we don't put 40 or 50 pts on them our tournament is as good as over.

Who's the pessimist now rodders? You said last week we'd beat France in Paris, putting 40 points on Italy at home shouldn't be any bother surely...

Link for the stream.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/live_streaming.php

We will beat them by 40 willy, at least we should......

My prediction for the French game was only valid for that weekend though Willy.....they're going to smash us on the 4th! .....

WillyGilly wrote:Who's the pessimist now rodders? You said last week we'd beat France in Paris, putting 40 points on Italy at home shouldn't be any bother surely...

Only problem with that theory is that Ireland (and possibly France!) are about the only side that could beat France in Paris and then lose badly to Italy at home!

I dont hold much hope of Ireland beating France to be honest. I think that Wales will lose to them as well but funnily enough i think that England will beat them...

here we go...

Keep us poor people stuck without a link informed Willy

as you were...

journalist: deccie did you think about making any changes

deccie: yes we looked at the permutations etc blah blah and then decided to stick with the same 22.

Quel surprise

Well i am shocked. Deccie going so out of character and picking the same 22.

Thanks Willy

Kidney makes a whopping 44 changes. He changed the entire match day 22 . . . . . . .then changed them all back again!!

Can someone post the team please? ..... this is so exciting...... any new faces?....

red_stag wrote:Kidney makes a whopping 44 changes. He changed the entire match day 22 . . . . . . .then changed them all back again!!

cracker!

Couple of new faces Rodders. One or two lads are sporting some facial hair, others have gone with a completely new facial expression. Some have even got a bit of a colour. Exciting times.

You mean no................. no Barnes?

That Bastareaud Thornley! He promised me Kidney would pick Danny Barnes!

At least you have a sense of humour about it stag. I am dying a little inside here

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
I don't think these kind of threads are great for education Rory, 'ask the ref' is one of the few places where it works on here. I think (and it is just my deluded view) that SOB is way off form this season, last season he was pushing for his place for HCup games, to cement his place in the Irish squad and was flying. He is very much great with ball in hand at provincial level and developing his breakdown game at provincial level. I'd see that as ball in hand at international level but breakdown ability below international level at this time. From what I've seen of POM working at the breakdown, he is at least equal at the minute, possibly marginally better at slowing ball. So why not combine reward to someone who is coming through nicely and at the same time give SOB the kick up the back side he needs. I would go so far to say that POM would take more of a role player in that backrow and that would allow Ferris to get more chances to do what he does best. The only reason I'd have Heaslip in front of SOB are his defensive abilities are better and you don't get enough uplift on the attacking front to offset the defensive drop by putting SOB in front of Heaslip.
The 6Ns is predicated on the backrow play, breakdown is key, so is controlling tempo, securing quick ball and slowing the opposition. Our backrow, while great individuals, are not working as a unit. That impacts Murray getting quickball, allows defenses to rush up at our midfield.

I saw the Munster match against Treviso with POM at 7 and once again his breakdown skills were poor/non-existent IMO. The times he did try he gave away penalties. I am yet to see him as an openside and find it baffling that he is described as one. SOB against Wales was our top tackler, and covered our centres more than a few times, and I feel that was clearly the role given to him. Ferris well, i'm not really sure what role he had. Both I feel were the reverse of the last Wales game though. They didn't seem to want the ball which was bizarre and makes me look to the coaching. Funny how they were our only carriers last time and this time they didn't carry at all.

With club form, here is why I think our back row can be devastating. Ferris for Ulster is just a wrecking ball. He tackles hard, he hits rucks hard and he barrels through defences. He is a fantastic carrier and also has a lovely offloading game to add to that. SOB for Leinster has real pace and although his runs may not be as exciting as last year, his link play and support play are better than ever. As is his work at the break-down. Which I believe is constantly improving. Heaslip is still the dynamic ball carrying menace he used to be. He and SOB have linked up beautifully for Leinster. Although he has been lacking consistency, he had a great game against Wales.

If they show that kind of form, and are allowed to play an attacking style of rugby which suits all of them (and the whole team), then they will be up there with the very best. They shouldn't be restricted to a certain role (covering poor centres).

eirebilly wrote:At least you have a sense of humour about it stag. I am dying a little inside here

What an over the top reaction! I'm not happy but that is a bit much.

eirebilly wrote:At least you have a sense of humour about it stag. I am dying a little inside here

ah sure come on now billy ya just can't be giving fellas caps now for the sake of it.....

roddersm wrote:

eirebilly wrote:At least you have a sense of humour about it stag. I am dying a little inside here

ah sure come on now billy ya just can't be giving fellas caps now for the sake of it.....

Sure now, just messin rodders. Just really starting to lose it with Deccie, no change no progression.

red_stag wrote:

eirebilly wrote:At least you have a sense of humour about it stag. I am dying a little inside here

What an over the top reaction! I'm not happy but that is a bit much.

It was more tongue in cheek stag.......