Ireland vs Italy TEAM ANNOUNCED

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

I know it's early in the week for this to be up but thought I'd get it going anyway.
From what I understand we have no injuries to worry about bar Sexton and it looks like he should be declared fit to start.

The Italians have been looking quite good I think this year. They weren't bad against France and for huge parts of the game against England they were the better team but lost out.

Parisse and Masi are in great form in my opinion and they are supplemented by some good work by the predictably grisselled Italian pack although they have lost Castrogiovanni and their 9-10 look shaky.

From an Irish perspective, things are disappointing at present, poor tactics have lost us a number of games and the team don't seem to know what way to play and our consistently on different wavelengths. Great players like Ferris, O'Brien, O'Connell, Sexton and others are not turning up to play in Green the way they do for their provinces.

Score predictions?
Who you would pick in the team and why?
Italian weakness' and strengths?
Irish weakness' and strengths?
Fears?
Hopes?
Is Declan Kidney in serious danger at this stage? What would be his fate were we to lose this game?

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

Plus option 4 is rubbish IMO. We have plenty of good options. At 13 at least. At 12 you may be right, we don't have anybody good enough (though Wallace I feel has been fantastic for Ulster).

Ireland won't win playing ten man rugby.

Kidney is playing the percentages in a percentage driven year, given the need for ranking points.

EOM has a lot more natural talent than Mcfadden, Griffen ,Spense and Cave however people have doubts about his physicality.For me no centres right now in Ireland can live up to Roberts or Davies anyway but one thing Eom does have is an ability like Bod to spot a gap, pick a line , make a break and just get the offload in.I believe he has that spark that the irish backline need to be set alight.Darce and Mcfadden are basically both the same player.Both of them look to put someone into space but neither runs the lines to make the break.You surely do not actually think Griffen is a better player than EOM.
One centre who looks promising in terms of physicality and skill is Brendan Macken.

Well since Griffin outplayed EOM and looks a better prospect, well yes, I do think he is a better player than EOM. What is so unbelievable about that? Also disagree that EOM has anymore natural talent than the players you have listed (except McFadden).

SecretFly wrote:'if we win at the weekend' said DOD

Well a win might be what the majority want, based on them getting rightly fed up with losing. But a win won't be making me rush to any locker with my folder of excuses and picking up the one titled: "the players did it for themselves".

I don't want a win. I want Italy pulverised. No, not because I want to see them suffer or humiliated. We still have a shot at this championship and I want the team to prove they're aware of the fact by doing to Italy what we kinda know the Welsh and French will certainly try to do to them.

A win? Hate to be so picky but no, it's not enough.

I watched the Kidney interview (painful), after yet another controversial selection and laughed out loud. He could easily have been saying "I am off huntin wabbits. Wugby? What is this wugby?".
He is a joke at this level.

And Rory, Paddy Wallace should never have been even near an Irish International selection. Ever.
To suggest it now is... well. It's not clever.

If Ireland dont win well and perform well v a poor Italy - at home, Kidney's card is well marked. It already is, but failure to do so, would help to get rid of Elmer O' Fudge.

Let's get this vacuous & wasteful era over with and kick on with a Top Class coach.

I'll still feel the same way if we put 50 on them. Eddie did. Away. Look what happened to him.The point being, he is directionless and clueless and maybe Ireland will do a France on Sat and ignore him.

There is no Irish coach, at present, who can take this squad where it needs to go. The IRFU should be looking for his replacement. Now.

Well Paddy Wallace is probably the best option at 12 we have currently, if you want someone to inject a bit of creativity into the game. You may not like him, but you cannot deny he has played some great rugby for Ulster.

Also what was so bad about Kidney's interview Gibson?

DOD wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In regards to ROG, if he was the still the starting 10 for Ireland then yes he should be there but he is not. I dont believe that the way to go forward for Ireland is to have a 35 year old understudy. Get the young guys in, be it Madigan or Keatley.

Spence is a very good player, i said that he should be in the squad, not starting at 12, however, i do believe that he would do a better job than D'Arcy is there right now.

Sexton has actually not earned/won his 'start' for Ireland which is a problem as he knows that. ROG is there to pick up the pieces.

Yes drop ROG because if Sexton has one of his many off days, the last thing he needs is a geriatric replacement who is outplaying him at the moment coming on and replacing him. Of course Ireland need some youngfella with no experience coming on.

if we win well at the weekend I can't wait for the, it was clearly the players doing it themselves excuses. Like after the Aus game, clearly our best open attacking game ever

Is ROG outplaying Sexton at the moment DOD? Personally i would not have thought that but hey ho.

The thing is, ROG is 35 and is basically an understudy to Sexton right now. IMHO, Kidney will play Sexton for 75mins of pretty much every game and ROG for 5mins (barring injury). Thats a total of 25mins over the whole 6N, would that 25 mins not be better spent on introducing a Madigan or Keatley to the setup?

To me Sexton plays very well but there is also loads of pressure heaped on him to perform. During the Wales match when he missed a penalty, the camera on tv and in the stadium zoomed straight in on ROG. Tell that's not un-nerving to see if you were Sexton, and puts massive pressure on you.

As for D'Arcy, one of my all time favourite Irish players but his time is up and has been for a few years. He was carried by BOD in his poor stages and made to look ok but now with the absence of BOD he looks pedestrian. It really is time to drop him from the squad, experience has been used as an excuse for far too long. Get someone else int there.

Gibson wrote:
And Rory, Paddy Wallace should never have been even near an Irish International selection. Ever.
To suggest it now is... well. It's not clever.

There should be a filter to block people from talking this much SH1TE.

I'm very surprised that people seem upset for a SECOND time at the team announcement, fair enough the first time, but twice! He was NEVER going to change the team from the one he announced to face France. Those players didn't get the chance to play and prove themselves capable or otherwise, what has happened in the interim that would make him change his decision.

You could of course argue this is Italy and a time to experiment a bit more, but that would be hard on the players selected for France who then missed out.

Kidney has undoubtedly made mistakes and I'm sure would openly admit that, but doesn't his achievments merit a little more respect. Coaches will never please all the fans, especially Irish ones with provincial bias, but I'm sure we can disagree without personal attacks on Kidney, calling him idiot etc.

As it stands he is the most successful Irish coach ever, unless I am mistaken. 2 HCups and 1 Grand Slam, also the U19 RWC I think. He may not be the answer in the long term or even medium term but some of the spouting on here from people who have none of his experience and do not see the players everyday in training is ridiculous.

Question: if the whole Leinster squad was perfectly fit and rested and they had to play the HCup final tomorrow, who would the centre pairing be?

Darcy and BOD?

{Rapidsnowman retreats to his igloo, knowing his post will not be popular}

SecretFly wrote:I don't want a win. I want Italy pulverised

+ 1.

Kidney has dismantled the mindset we built up over the noughties. He's turned us into minnows and chippy underdogs again rather than a quality side made up European cup/ Celtic league/ GS winners and B&I Lions.

We should be putting 40-50 points on this Italy side as they've been woeful so far.

If Leinster/Munster even Ulster were playing Treviso at home would they be happy to scrape a win?

Kidney is a feckin joke. What sort of coach picks the side by consulting with the players to see if he needs to make changes? Thats like asking turkeys to vote for xmas. I've tried to get behind him but I'm sick of this guy, and that waster Gert Smal, destroying the national team.

im at the stage where i would be happy if he just tried something. dont care what

i cannot believe darcy "owns" the 12 jersey after 2 years of very poor performances. its madness

dublin_dave wrote:im at the stage where i would be happy if he just tried something. dont care what

i cannot believe darcy "owns" the 12 jersey after 2 years of very poor performances. its madness

O'Callaghan is another one, how he keeps getting selected I don't know. Certainly its not on provincial form or anything he's done in the last 3 seasons. If I was Tuohy, Toner or Ryan I'd be looking for a foreign grandparent.

Why pick O'Mahoney on the bench against Wales but not trust him to bring on for 20min?

There's far too many undroppables in the Irish set up and that only breeds complacency rather than success.

Tommy Bowe surely must be in the last chance saloon, why not give Kearney or Zebo a go at 14 and give Bowe a kick up the backside?

roddersm wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:im at the stage where i would be happy if he just tried something. dont care what

i cannot believe darcy "owns" the 12 jersey after 2 years of very poor performances. its madness

O'Callaghan is another one, how he keeps getting selected I don't know. Certainly its not on provincial form or anything he's done in the last 3 seasons. If I was Tuohy, Toner or Ryan I'd be looking for a foreign grandparent.

Why pick O'Mahoney on the bench against Wales but not trust him to bring on for 20min?

There's far too many undroppables in the Irish set up and that only breeds complacency rather than success.

Tommy Bowe surely must be in the last chance saloon, why not give Kearney or Zebo a go at 14 and give Bowe a kick up the backside?

+1 on all counts Rodders!

Does Kidney underestimate the impact of unleashing a player who has been champing at the bit over someone who is lacing up the boots for 'yet another wee ireland game'.

This is the 2nd game in. He is giving them a chance to redeem themselves. If they don't take I would hope changes will be made.

I agree with Rodders, re; DOC , would love to see a replacement for Darcy and think Bowe is living of past glory.

BUT; I also remember the 1990's where we never had the same personel two games running and we were a shambles!

If we lose or win unconvincingly then I would expect changes.

Another deflating announcement from Kidney.

Let's face it lads there are going to be very few positives from this campaign and it's going to be another whitewash in the summer.

I'm debating on watching the game as I know it'll be a boring awful game (of course when 13:30 comes on Saturday, for all my protesting, I'll be glued in front of the TV screaming my head off).

We have the players to throw it around and play attractive rugby but this will be another Kidney game plan of keep it in the forwards. Yes we have to match Italy in the forwards but we should be doing more than that and should be moving it around.

This campaign is all set up for loads of frustration and then a great game against England and people talk about moving on and this is what we've been building to for some week. The only way to progress is to bin Kidney!

roddersm wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I don't want a win. I want Italy pulverised

+ 1.

Kidney has dismantled the mindset we built up over the noughties. He's turned us into minnows and chippy underdogs again rather than a quality side made up European cup/ Celtic league/ GS winners and B&I Lions.

We should be putting 40-50 points on this Italy side as they've been woeful so far.

If Leinster/Munster even Ulster were playing Treviso at home would they be happy to scrape a win?

Kidney is a feckin joke. What sort of coach picks the side by consulting with the players to see if he needs to make changes? Thats like asking turkeys to vote for xmas. I've tried to get behind him but I'm sick of this guy, and that waster Gert Smal, destroying the national team.

Ireland beat Italy 36-6 the last time we met Course we had an outhalf who could control a match playin Unfortunately for Kidney, he has to develop 'youth' now. (For the record, Australia didn't put as many points on Italy as we did)

Why change a winning team eh?

Oh wait.........

Sin é wrote:Ireland beat Italy 36-6 the last time we met Course we had an outhalf who could control a match playin Unfortunately for Kidney, he has to develop 'youth' now. (For the record, Australia didn't put as many points on Italy as we did)

Kidney isn't developing youth...in fact he isn't developing anything other than an exclusive old boys club.

Kidney has made his bed by sticking with the old guard, he has to win the tournament or its been a total waste of an opportunity to bring in new talent.

Wales and England at least are building something fresh and positive and have cleared out the dead wood. Don't get me wrong some of the 30 somethings are there on merit like POC, Best(?) and Ross but there are 3 or 4 guys there who are there only on reputation and because of the fear of risk and change.

With every game we are falling behind the other sides who have had the courage and vision to change and evolve. Third place or less with a side full of players in their late twenties and 30's will be disasterous for us.

I have to say anyone who would not watch their national team play because the coach made 2-3 bad calls is a disgrace to their country.

What I also want to know is why no journalist is putting Kidney through the mill.

- Declan, why have you selected Donnacha O'Callaghan when he is no longer a first choice player for his province?

- Declan, many people suggest that Ireland's backline has regressed in a massive way since taking over. Do you feel that you are the right man to take Ireland forward.

- Declan, is there friction in the camp between the provinces. Do you feel the players can successfully leave behind their provinces when coming into the Irish camp.

- Declan, would you agree that you are playing favourites and not giving everyone a fair go?

well said stag

red_stag wrote:I have to say anyone who would not watch their national team play because the coach made 2-3 bad calls is a disgrace to their country.

Kidney has been making the same 2-3 bad calls since February 2010.

Who said they wouldn't watch the National side?

Rodders I agree entirely. As I said I'd like to see a journalist raise the tough questions with Kidney.

A poster above said he would debate not watching it (but that in reality he would of course be watching it) - my point was that team selection or tactics should not stop people supporting Ireland.

because irish rugby journalists are absolute yes men.

with the exception of neil francis who is an absolute wally

we played well v italy in the world cup no issues there. on the back of a great victory. we reverted to type pretty quickly v the welsh and were thoroughly outsmarted by Gatland and a young team with 1/4 of the caps we had

Red - So I've made a little light hearted joke comment about DEBATING about watching the game and in the very same sentence I've said of course I will be watcing it and I'm a disgrace?

dublin_dave wrote:because irish rugby journalists are absolute yes men.

Was just going to post the same thing Dave.

IF - I never said you are a disgrace. You said that you would be watching the game. You aren't a disgrace and I never said you were. I understand how the comment was made - as a mild joke.

I was prompted by your post to consider whether they are people who would actually choose not to watch Ireland due to Kidney. And yes if people actually decided they couldnt be bothered to watch their country because Declan Kidney has favourites then I would consider them a disgrace.

we reverted to type pretty quickly v the welsh and were thoroughly outsmarted by Gatland and a young team with 1/4 of the caps we had
.

Who were better on the day and perhaps we will have to admit have better personnel at the present time. I thought Ireland were the better team in the first half, but Wales just soaked up the pressure and then hit back. I have never seen Wales play to that level before - they were simply better.

Wales always seem to be better than the sum of their collective regional parts and Ireland less - Kidney is not the first coach to have found that, we all hated EOS too remember!

Ah I see now Red, thanks for clearing that up. I was worried I was going to have to hunt you down at the QF and go Ultimate Warrior on you!

I do agree though that if people turned their support away from the team because of a coach or disagreeing with his decisions then they should be lined up and have either 1F, D. Ryan or SOB take a 20yd running start and tackle them!

- Declan, why have you selected Donnacha O'Callaghan when he is no longer a first choice player for his province?

I think this is what you get when you're after losing a close game against a very good side. There's always tough calls you have to make. There's always going to be one fella happy and one not so happy when the team is picked. Donnacha just got the call this time.

- Declan, many people suggest that Ireland's backline has regressed in a massive way since taking over. Do you feel that you are the right man to take Ireland forward.

Look, we know what we're doing on the training field every every day. The boys know how to play, know how to make the right choices, at the right end of the field, at the right time, in the right way, for the right reasons. There were a few things we were trying out in the Welsh game. If they'd have come off sure wouldn't yiz be here asking me about our chances for a Slam. This is the way rugby goes. Small margins. In actual fact, I think you do a great disservice to Wales by putting a question like that to me.

- Declan, is there friction in the camp between the provinces. Do you feel the players can successfully leave behind their provinces when coming into the Irish camp.

The Provinces are going well in the HC, and sure doesn't that put a smile on people's faces. They have a bounce in their step when they come into camp with performances like that. But look, I'm not going to get into the ROG/Sexton debate, or why the lad's on their down time are always pictured having fun with only their own Provincial team mates... they respect each other and like the same kind of movies, so that's not an issue at all. No.

- Declan, would you agree that you are playing favourites and not giving everyone a fair go?

I'm playing what I see as the best side to put out against the opposition we keep meeting. International is a step up from Provincial so there are no easy games in the Six Nations. I have to trust the players I give the responsibility to and they have to trust I'm going to pick them. Sure look, if we'd won that game by a point against Wales, the players would be everyone's favourites. But those are the things that are out of your hands in rugby. Those are the small margins you have to work with.

Enjoy the game Tracy.

Maybe the questions don't get asked because asking Declan a question is like pulling teeth.............. your own.

And amidst all of this, the Italy team is announced.

ITALIA

15 Andrea MASI (Aironi Rugby, 66 caps)

14 Giovanbattista VENDITTI (Aironi Rugby, 2 caps)*

13 Tommaso BENVENUTI (Benetton Treviso, 14 caps)*

12 Alberto SGARBI (Benetton Treviso, 13 caps)

11 Luke MCLEAN (Benetton Treviso, 35 caps)

10 Tobias BOTES (Benetton Treviso, 2 caps)

9 Edoardo GORI (Benetton Treviso, 11 caps)*

8 Sergio PARISSE (Stade Francais, 85 caps) - capitano

7 Robert BARBIERI (Benetton Treviso, 18 caps)

6 Alessandro ZANNI (Benetton Treviso, 60 caps)

5 Marco BORTOLAMI (Aironi Rugby, 90 caps)

4 Quintin GELDENHUYS (Aironi Rugby, 27 caps)

3 Lorenzo CITTADINI (Benetton Treviso, 10 caps)

2 Leonardo GHIRALDINI (Benetton Treviso, 43 caps)

1 Michele RIZZO (Benetton Treviso, 2 caps)

a disposizione

16 Tommaso D’APICE (Aironi Rugby, 5 caps)*

17 Fabio STAIBANO (Aironi Rugby, 9 caps)

18 Antonio PAVANELLO (Benetton Treviso, 6 caps)

19 Simone FAVARO (Aironi Rugby, 7 caps)*,

20 Fabio SEMENZATO (Benetton Treviso, 10 caps)

21 Kristopher BURTON (Benetton Treviso, 11 caps)

22 Gonzalo CANALE (Clermont-Auvergne, 74 caps)

23° e 24° convocati: Andrea LO CICERO (Racing-Metro Paris, 93 caps), Giulio TONIOLATTI (Aironi Rugby, 8 caps)

No goalkicker in that Italy team worthy of the name.

Botes kicking is appalling

The Italian props (including the bench) have an average of 7 caps each. Can Ireland actually come out on top in the scrum? Their lineout can also be exposed.

geoff998rugby wrote:No goalkicker in that Italy team worthy of the name.

Botes kicking is appalling

Agree

haha very good secret fly.

i dont mind deccie speaking in riddles in press conferences if we are making progress and getting results on the pitch.

Does botes not kick like. Dream for treviso. It might be de waal inam thinking of. Slightly harsh on burton but Brunel is probably trying to find out about his squad.

Great to see parisse the only foreign based player in the 15 and only 2 in the squad.

I had a lovely bottle of Tobias Botes '98 on Valentines day with the GF. It went really nicely with the entre of Bortolami, but by the time we got through to the Rizzo it was lacking in body and becoming overpowered because the chef had used so much lo cicero in the side of favaro, and we were forced to get in a bottle of the Barbieri, recommended by the waiter. I swear it was all a bit too much in the end, and I started to feel a bit queasy and couldn't really enjoy the benvenuti, by the time it came.

miteyironpaw wrote:I had a lovely bottle of Tobias Botes '98 on Valentines day with the GF. It went really nicely with the entre of Bortolami, but by the time we got through to the Rizzo it was lacking in body and becoming overpowered because the chef had used so much lo cicero in the side of favaro, and we were forced to get in a bottle of the Barbieri, recommended by the waiter. I swear it was all a bit too much in the end, and I started to feel a bit queasy and couldn't really enjoy the benvenuti, by the time it came.

The moral being - Italian food doesn't agree with you. Next time try Chinese...I hear it's all the rage now.

As an aside I see that Stephen Ferris has gone public in stating the citation committee apologise to him with regard to the penalty incident stating that the decision was 'probably' wrong

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:No goalkicker in that Italy team worthy of the name.

Botes kicking is appalling

Agree

Burtons isn't much better. Can't see where Italy will score points at all. They are there for the taking. No excuses.

McLean can kick well enough in all fairness. I'd imagine he will be there kicker.

The front row thing is mental for an Italian perspective!

geoff998rugby wrote:As an aside I see that Stephen Ferris has gone public in stating the citation committee apologise to him with regard to the penalty incident stating that the decision was 'probably' wrong

So the game should be considered a moral loss for Wales?

miteyironpaw wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As an aside I see that Stephen Ferris has gone public in stating the citation committee apologise to him with regard to the penalty incident stating that the decision was 'probably' wrong

So the game should be considered a moral loss for Wales?

No, I'd assume the Welsh should just treat it like last year's win. A win is a win and move on. The repercussions of thought are for us alone. Wales at least deserved the win this year and thankfully, for them, a decision appeared that effected it. Onward and upward...England at the weekend...new fish to fry.

miteyironpaw wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As an aside I see that Stephen Ferris has gone public in stating the citation committee apologise to him with regard to the penalty incident stating that the decision was 'probably' wrong

So the game should be considered a moral loss for Wales?

No such inference on my part just passing on a statement by Stephen Ferris

So who is this 'supposed' disgrace that wont watch Ireland?

eirebilly wrote:So who is this 'supposed' disgrace that wont watch Ireland?

Fictional people . . . . <slinksawaytailbetweenlegs>

In fairness it is hard to face D'Arcy playing every single Ireland game..

In all seriousness though, when BOD returns do we expect to see D'Arcy - BOD for the next few seasons? Would like some opinions on how people would feel if that was the case.

I cant imagine anyone not wanting to watch Ireland, not even up for debate in my books. Even if Ireland fielded OAP's, i would be watching them and complaining afterwards about Deccies tackics in not motivating them and how Munsters OAP's are better than Liensters.


Well Gibbo and I anyways

As usual Ulster OAP's not getting a fair crack of the whip by the Irish selection committee. Some things never change