Ireland vs Italy TEAM ANNOUNCED

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

I know it's early in the week for this to be up but thought I'd get it going anyway.
From what I understand we have no injuries to worry about bar Sexton and it looks like he should be declared fit to start.

The Italians have been looking quite good I think this year. They weren't bad against France and for huge parts of the game against England they were the better team but lost out.

Parisse and Masi are in great form in my opinion and they are supplemented by some good work by the predictably grisselled Italian pack although they have lost Castrogiovanni and their 9-10 look shaky.

From an Irish perspective, things are disappointing at present, poor tactics have lost us a number of games and the team don't seem to know what way to play and our consistently on different wavelengths. Great players like Ferris, O'Brien, O'Connell, Sexton and others are not turning up to play in Green the way they do for their provinces.

Score predictions?
Who you would pick in the team and why?
Italian weakness' and strengths?
Irish weakness' and strengths?
Fears?
Hopes?
Is Declan Kidney in serious danger at this stage? What would be his fate were we to lose this game?

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

Rory_Gallagher wrote:A young Trimble is exactly how I would describe Spence. He will be playing on the wing more next season I feel.

Apart from having blond hair and being naturally physical players I don't see too much resemblence.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:McFadden and Earls are stop gap players in the centre, neither will ever be top class in my opinion and they are just keeping the jersey warm for the real next generation: Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran. All far more talented players.

Let me remind you that Ian Keatley was sensational at outhalf the year the U20s won the GS.

Sorry sin but I don't get what relevance that has at all to what rodders is saying?

Looking good at U20s doesn't always translate into being international class a few years later.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:McFadden and Earls are stop gap players in the centre, neither will ever be top class in my opinion and they are just keeping the jersey warm for the real next generation: Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran. All far more talented players.

Let me remind you that Ian Keatley was sensational at outhalf the year the U20s won the GS.

Sorry sin but I don't get what relevance that has at all to what rodders is saying?

I think he is simply saying that players who shine for the U'20 do not necessarily kick on to be top International players.

I would bet at least one of Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran will fall by the wayside in the next two years for one reason or another.

Both are big, fast and very physical. I think Trimble would have been best as a 13 in all honesty, and he also started off as a 13. Spence I believe actually started out as a winger.

Shifting it away a fair bit, what would be peoples reactions if we played the same confused style, poor execuction but lost.....?

What would we say?
What would we want to change?
Who would we want to see and not see?

Hypothetical situation.

If we lost to Italy? Bye Kidney.

EDIT: It already should be the last days for Kidney anyway. We can make all the changes in the world to our team but if we play the same type of game as we have been, it isn't going to matter. I like to classify Kidney in the same category as Levriemont and PDV. Bad coaches of good teams. Sometimes, their team made them look a like better coaches than they really are (France in the final for example), but they are still awful coaches. 2009 and the irish grand slam could be an example of that.

If we lost Kidney would have to leave at end of the Six Nations. Without a shadow of a doubt.

Defeat in itself is not enough of a reason to sack a coach. But when a team is losing because the wrong team is being picked and they have no game plan then yes the coach must leave.

But it is mostly the game plan rather than the players being selected. I mean D'Arcy even looks okay when playing with Leinster, and they still manage to play some of the best attacking rugby in the world.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:McFadden and Earls are stop gap players in the centre, neither will ever be top class in my opinion and they are just keeping the jersey warm for the real next generation: Spence, Marshall, O'Malley, Griffin and Hanaran. All far more talented players.

Let me remind you that Ian Keatley was sensational at outhalf the year the U20s won the GS.

Sorry sin but I don't get what relevance that has at all to what rodders is saying?

Looking good at U20s doesn't always translate into being international class a few years later.

Apart from Hanaran I'm not basing my opinion on U-20's but their performances at senior level.

Doesnt look like Kidney is going to change from the team he used in the WC no matter what happens at this stage.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But it is mostly the game plan rather than the players being selected. I mean D'Arcy even looks okay when playing with Leinster, and they still manage to play some of the best attacking rugby in the world.

Yes we are saying the same thing.

Ireland don't have a game plan right now. It is looking like Kidney isn't the right man for the job anymore.

If Ireland lose to Italy on top of all of that it is definitely enough to see him leave at end of season.

If we not winning but had a clear gameplan I could accept that.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Doesnt look like Kidney is going to change from the team he used in the WC no matter what happens at this stage.

Thats not true. There could be an injury.

As much as no one would admit it, it almost seems that some on here are hoping for a defeat to Wales so we can get rid of Kidney...

Clive, I still think that we are one decent backs coach away from clicking and Ireland seem to be treading water until then.

Nope I know when I am actually watching the game I will want nothing more than an irish win, regardless of who the coach is.

It's extremely frustrating. I am hoping we see some good rugby against Italy though. A scrappy win at home to an Italy side who are very much in a transitional period themselves as a team will satisfy no-one and probably up the pressure on the coaches and players.

We need to show we are moving forward by putting some slick backs play together.

red_stag wrote:Eire, I am not doubting that you want Ireland to do well. I am suggesting that you want to run before you can walk.

I am still trying to come to terms with comment stag.

Can explain this for me when all i am suggesting is that maybe Spence would be much better in the Ireland squad than D'Arcy and that i would prefer to have 1 of either Madigan or Keatley in the squad ahead of ROG?

Artful_Dodger wrote:Doesnt look like Kidney is going to change from the team he used in the WC no matter what happens at this stage.

I must have missed the second match (France v Ireland). He didn't change from that then, did he?

I don't think Kidney is a poor coach. He's just not the right man for this job at this time. He was the perfect man for the 2009 season. He restored their morale and got them playing the defensive low risk style of rugby that was so effective at the time. Unfortunately for him the tackle laws changed after his first season. Ireland have the players to play a more attacking game. Just look at Leinster doing it better than any other team in Europe. It's not based on size, like Wales, but on skill and timing and posing multiple threats simultaneously. But we don't have the coach to get them playing that way. Kidney has never selected or coached a team to play like that.

Then look at Wales. Gatland has always favoured big backs and direct attacking rugby. Recently some absolutely huge backs have landed on his lap from the regions, as well as a young backrow that are giving them good ball. The players are perfectly suited to what Gatland wants done. And the style Gatland favours is perfectly suited to the modern game, post-tackle law change.

Gatland is the man to take Wales onwards. Kidney is not the man to take Ireland further. It's obvious.

And that's my "Kidney is not the man for the job" monologue for this week lads. See ye next week.

Eire,

To me the 7-8 comments I've written explain my feelings fairly clearly.

It is silly Lievremont tactics to start dropping first choice players based purely on age. We will get there in time but instead of making a whole host of changes at once it is better to slowly change over time.

E.g. - remove Darcy and O'Callaghan from the squad now. That is progress. In the summer make another change. In the autumn make more changes. In the Six Nations make more changes and in just a few short months you can have a whole new look team and tactics.

Kidney isn't making any changes and people who would otherwise accept the evolution process I outlined now want all the changes made at once (i.e. run before they can walk).

Even if you disagree with me I think my point is very clear.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't think Kidney is a poor coach. He's just not the right man for this job at this time. He was the perfect man for the 2009 season. He restored their morale and got them playing the defensive low risk style of rugby that was so effective at the time. Unfortunately for him the tackle laws changed after his first season. Ireland have the players to play a more attacking game. Just look at Leinster doing it better than any other team in Europe. It's not based on size, like Wales, but on skill and timing and posing multiple threats simultaneously. But we don't have the coach to get them playing that way. Kidney has never selected or coached a team to play like that.

Then look at Wales. Gatland has always favoured big backs and direct attacking rugby. Recently some absolutely huge backs have landed on his lap from the regions, as well as a young backrow that are giving them good ball. The players are perfectly suited to what Gatland wants done. And the style Gatland favours is perfectly suited to the modern game, post-tackle law change.

Gatland is the man to take Wales onwards. Kidney is not the man to take Ireland further. It's obvious.

And that's my "Kidney is not the man for the job" monologue for this week lads. See ye next week.

Yes I'd agree with that.

Well to me, he must be poor to have not learnt anything from the last welsh encounter. The only thing he seemed to change was telling Ferris and SOB to not carry the ball. Yes Kidney, that is exactly how to beat Wales.

Well obviously not stag if i am still bemused why you would say something like that but hey ho, each to their own. Can you please point out the wholsale changes? 2 players, both squad players not starters, hardly wholesale.

Feckless, Kidney was not a poor coach, he was very good its just that he has not moved with the times and i doubt that he ever will unfortunately.

Eire,

Do you seriously not understand my point?

Im not asking if you agree with it but is my post above really that unclear. My comments are not just to you. I've seen people wanting to draft in Simon Zebo, Dave Kearney, Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden, Ian Keatley, Ian Madigan, Paddy McAllister, Jamie Hagan and even Danny Barnes and Eoin Griffin into the squad.

Now you are going down the patronising road stag. Well done.

I suggest two changes for the squad, not starters, squad players and i am making Lievermont style wholesale changes and that i am trying to run before i walk? Seriously?

I am done with you stag because you are a very rude and condescending poster.

I dont understand why disagreeing with you has made me "very rude and condescending".

Disagreement does not mean disrespect and I can assure you that I dont consider you to be rude. I have to say Im amazed by that reaction.

You and Rory Gallagher are in complete disagreement with me but I dont feel that way.

Anyway, in short if Ive offended you Im sorry

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Earls to me is top class, but not at centre. I still see him as a 15. Any time I have seen him there, he has looked extremely dangerous. Always thought of him as a young Cullen when he started out.

I also thought that his best position was 15 but i have been impressed with him at 13, he is the best option Ireland have at 13 right now, that may change in the next year or two.

red_stag wrote:I dont understand why disagreeing with you has made me "very rude and condescending".

Disagreement does not mean disrespect and I can assure you that I dont consider you to be rude. I have to say Im amazed by that reaction.

You and Rory Gallagher are in complete disagreement with me but I dont feel that way.

Anyway, in short if Ive offended you Im sorry

Why dont you read your posts directed at me. Disagreement is fine.

I can see that now. I don't apologise for the sake of it and the reason I did so was I can see that reading back.

Is the Italian team out?

eirebilly wrote:In regards to ROG, if he was the still the starting 10 for Ireland then yes he should be there but he is not. I dont believe that the way to go forward for Ireland is to have a 35 year old understudy. Get the young guys in, be it Madigan or Keatley.

Spence is a very good player, i said that he should be in the squad, not starting at 12, however, i do believe that he would do a better job than D'Arcy is there right now.

Sexton has actually not earned/won his 'start' for Ireland which is a problem as he knows that. ROG is there to pick up the pieces.

double post

You've posted that anti Sexton gumph far more than twice sin......

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In regards to ROG, if he was the still the starting 10 for Ireland then yes he should be there but he is not. I dont believe that the way to go forward for Ireland is to have a 35 year old understudy. Get the young guys in, be it Madigan or Keatley.

Spence is a very good player, i said that he should be in the squad, not starting at 12, however, i do believe that he would do a better job than D'Arcy is there right now.

Sexton has actually not earned/won his 'start' for Ireland which is a problem as he knows that. ROG is there to pick up the pieces.

Yes drop ROG because if Sexton has one of his many off days, the last thing he needs is a geriatric replacement who is outplaying him at the moment coming on and replacing him. Of course Ireland need some youngfella with no experience coming on.

if we win well at the weekend I can't wait for the, it was clearly the players doing it themselves excuses. Like after the Aus game, clearly our best open attacking game ever

We played open attacking rugby against Australia?

Lydiate,Faletau and Warburton cant go on forever.Your chance to beat Wales will come.Be patient.You got a GS eventually.Plucky effort.
Beat the Italians and it could kick start your season.

Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau don't have anything to do with Ireland though.. nor are they the reason Wales keep beating us.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau don't have anything to do with Ireland though.. nor are they the reason Wales keep beating us.

Perhaps Kidney had a bicyle!

..Right.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Lydiate,Faletau and Warburton cant go on forever.

Are you sure about that? Seems to me like Gatland is becoming so addicted to the high that comes from Poland that his next step will be to cryogenically suspend Lydiate, Faletau and Warburton so that they can fight on in many more campaigns over the next decade or two.... or three.

'if we win at the weekend' said DOD

Well a win might be what the majority want, based on them getting rightly fed up with losing. But a win won't be making me rush to any locker with my folder of excuses and picking up the one titled: "the players did it for themselves".

I don't want a win. I want Italy pulverised. No, not because I want to see them suffer or humiliated. We still have a shot at this championship and I want the team to prove they're aware of the fact by doing to Italy what we kinda know the Welsh and French will certainly try to do to them.

A win? Hate to be so picky but no, it's not enough.

On the Spence issue i dont think you guys are disagreeing as much as the post count suggests.

My two cents is that for what Gordon D'arcy is offering Ireland at the moment, then yes Nevin Spence would probably make a better fist of it. But Spence hasnt been great by any stretch and has been messed about a bit.

To my mind the centres for ireland should be Wallace and Earls. Now i would prefer to see Earls in the back three but our two best 13's are injured and he is the only viable option at present.

Players like Spence, Earls and Trimble will operate more effectively at 13 outside ball playing 12's which is why i would pick wallace this weekend and why i believe at Ulster we need to bring Marshall through at 12. The prospect of watching earls outside Downey next season or indeed D'arcy this weekend really depresses me but if Munster were to go Hanrahan/Earls that would be exciting.

Yawn...
I said if we win well...

Watch out that you don't fall of your pedestal now Fly

stand. The best centre is injured, the next best is playing

Cave is playing????

I think you said 'if we win' without the 'well' but there you go, fast editing can play double tricks with my eyes so I might have that all wrong

And take some coffee DOD, you'll need the energy for gloating when the lads win.............well.........

Can't remember the "well" after first reading it myself either

Also Stand, yes, I think Cave is definitely the first choice 13 after BOD for Ireland. Or he should be first choice full stop, with BOD coming back to play 12. I feel that Earls is 2nd best, but he will be overtaking by Spence soon enough, and move back to the back three. Hopefully 15, where he looks at his best/most dangerous.

what about putting O'Malley 13 and Bowe 12.I don't think anyone can argue that it would definitely be the most exciting centre partnership.In response to an earlier comment I don't think it is right saying O'Malley isn't big enough as the only time I have seen him miss a tackle was on Donald and I think that time he just went too high.

I honestly don't think there would be anything exciting about having Bowe at 12, other than for the opposition who would be looking forward to playing against him. EOM is not ready for international rugby, and he has missed more tackles than that. Was fairly outplayed by Griffin against Connacht also.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Cave is definitely the first choice 13 after BOD for Ireland.

Don't see how you can think that. Earls is Kidneys first choice 13 now. How many times has Deccie played Cave there for Ireland? I personally think Earls is much more suited to the wing. But he's Deccie's first choice 13 for sure, with BOD out.

It's clear we have serious problems in the center. And it could be this glaring deficiency in midfield, more than anything else (including Deccie's tactics) that are causing our ineptness in attack and poor results. It's certainly causing us to leak tries. What about these suggestions.

1. What about Sexton at 12? Better playmaker than D'arcy, better defender than D'arcy, better kicking game than D'arcy. And for now, we still have another top class 10. It seemed to work well in the glimpses we saw in the RWC.

2. After the 6 Nations, BOD at 12 and Earls at 13. Can't do it until the summer tour. But like the above, we've only seen a glimpse of it (in 2010) and it worked really well. But like the above, it wasn't tried again in a starting 15.

3. Use some untried players and give them time. McFadden or Downey at 12? Spence, Bowe, Cave, Trimble, O'Malley or Griffen at 13? Not sure what the best combo might be.

4. Admit nobody's good enough. Cut our losses. Put two big defensive lumps there and play 10 man rugby. Something like Downey/Spence. They're both good tacklers and hard workers aren't they? We can't keep leaking tries.

First choice in my opinion I should say, and the best option. In terms of who is likely first choice under Kidney, then of course it would be Earls.