Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

Clive on the whole I agree with you but our midfield is a mess. BOD is the one player who we can play out of position knowing he would still be outstanding. It would also muture and develop Cave.

This is a decent midfield that for a couple of years will serve us well, until younger players have put their hand up to claim the places. I see it as a holding operation whilst players are develop elsewhere and gain more experience e.g. Ryan, Tuohy, POM, Murray.

We simply cant afford to wave good bye to BOD just and our options at 13 are stronger than our options at 12 e.g. Cave, Earls, Spence

Notch wrote:

clivemcl wrote:We need each player who plays for Ireland to be a player who does a job in THAT POSITION week in week out provincially.

We have two Irish players who start week in week out for their provinces and neither are good enough so...

Yes and thats not good enough, but it would be a start. Like I said earlier, O'Leary and DOC have 6 starts each this season for their clubs. If we want to have players compete for international duty we should have as many at 1st choice as possible. My point being the IRFU need to work on distributing the talent around the clubs. TOL has his faults, but I suspect he wouldnt have been quite as bad if he had been for example the No.1 SH for Connacht all season, rather than sitting on a bench or less.

Geoff, on paper I know that BOD will do better than ok at 12, I just would NEED to see a vested interest in looking for the long term solution. But with Wallace supposedly never good enough for Ireland, and Munsters NIQs, what is going to be done to ensure we have a proper 12 option by the next world cup?

The powers in Dublin have the power to force Paddy at 10 for a few games, can they not also force the clubs to play a quota of a selected list of young talent?

I hope natural selection will intervene and Luke Marshall and Fergus McFadden will eventually supercede Wallace and D'Arcy. But to be honest, Wallace is currently miles ahead of Luke Marshall; in fact, Wallace is an essential player for Ulster. He's not going anywhere fast whilst Marshall has a wee way to go.

I've more hope D'Arcy might lose his place for Leinster. But I wouldn't be surprised if we got a top-class backs coach for Ireland and D'Arce and Wallace 'magically' improved.

Got to agree with Geoff there although on the whole your point is valid Clive.

The only other option is for McFadden to get a start for Leinster consistently and show form. (not unlikely IMO)

We have two options who look ready at 13. Earls and Cave. Earls has done admirably IMO but I prefer him on the wing and if that's where munster will play him let's keep him there. Cave calls the defensive line at ulster I think so would be a decent option with bod bringing him through. Hopefully by then Marshall or hanrahan has come through or farrell at a longer shot. Point is the coach in two or three years is going to have to make some bold calls.

Kidney makes some good points in his interview but there doesn't seem to be any introspection There

JJ Hanrahan would want to be getting picked for Munster- but it could be that James Downey is getting picked there ahead of him!

Will Downey be given more consideration i wonder once he's playing for Munster? I agree on Cave. I really feel that the established players have gotten stale.

Did anyone see Ryan, standing by a ruck, realised somebody had to show some passion, took a wee run up, trashed a couple of English forwards and turned the ball over followed by a triumphal scream.

That very moment was one of very few glimmers of hope on Saturday. And perhaps when we start showing faith in new players, we will bring more of that passion back into the side.

Once your playing for Munster you're automagically in the mix for Ireland honours.

I do feel like we'll have a few tough years now of succession problems.

Most fans would agree that D'Arcy hasn't been doing it at Test level since he broke his arm against Italy in 2008. Yet Schmidt keeps playing him at Leinster and it works. What is he doing at porvincial level that he's not doing at Test level?

Surely the difference is the type of game he's being asked to play? He doesn't have the initial burst of acceleration that he had going back to 2003 that invariably took him over the gainline and sucked in defenders. Schmidt plays a continuity game that relies on keeping the ball in motion, and D'Arcy can play this game because it's effectiveness relies on guile rather than power.

Kidney on the other hand seems to like to punctuate the play by starting new plays from scratch every time the ball stops at a ruck. D'Arcy can't be effective in that situation any more - neither would Wallace or McFadden. Yet Kidney keeps picking him. It is obvious that:
1. He has to pick someone else,
or
2. He has to change his tactics.

Kidney being a mathematician should realise that the basic geometry of a square peg won't fit in a round hole.

Sin é wrote:

Can you not get the fact that D'Arcy is the best of a bad lot. McFadden & Wallace are not up to it. I think that Luke Fitz is the long term solution at 12. At least he is international standard and can run a support line.

No I can't get my head around that fact as for 3 years D'Arcy has been proving you wrong.If I concede that McFadden and Wallace are not up to it that still doesn't justify picking D'Arcy no matter how many times he lets us down.Wallace has been an improvement on D'Arcy every time I've seen him play for Ireland in the last 3 years and the fact that you think Luke Fitz is the answer when he hasn't played 12 in several years and shows no signs of ever playing there again is pretty damning on how seriously I should take your opinion on Irelands problems at centre.

BlueMuff wrote:Interesting that nobody has answered dod regards Schmidt picking darcy and bod for Leinster....

Not really interesting it's actually pretty boring as well as being wrong.

DOD wrote:Yeah asls but was it just good pace or phenomenal pace. Still I suppose he showed it once in five games which is pretty good really

Lol so the crux of your argument is that you hold the final decision on the difference between good and phenomenal.

It also doesn't matter how many times he showed it,my argument was he had it and I've been proven right.........again.

Until McFadden, Hanrahan and Marshall establish themselves at their respective provinces BOD is our best 12 option.

Marshall and Hanrahan are currently not the best at their provinces but in both cases the hope is they will be in a year or two.

McFadden deserves to be first choice for Leinster next year.

clivemcl wrote:

Notch wrote:

clivemcl wrote:We need each player who plays for Ireland to be a player who does a job in THAT POSITION week in week out provincially.

We have two Irish players who start week in week out for their provinces and neither are good enough so...

Yes and thats not good enough, but it would be a start. Like I said earlier, O'Leary and DOC have 6 starts each this season for their clubs. If we want to have players compete for international duty we should have as many at 1st choice as possible. My point being the IRFU need to work on distributing the talent around the clubs. TOL has his faults, but I suspect he wouldnt have been quite as bad if he had been for example the No.1 SH for Connacht all season, rather than sitting on a bench or less.

Or ... Boss should be back up starting for Ulster with Pienaar at 10. But you have to keep the family in a job in Ulster.

By the way, in the Wolfhounds game at the start of the 6Ns, O'Leary looked the best of the options and anyway, Boss is in NZ - family illness has brought him home so he isn't available.

O'Leary was injured for most of the season. Munster seem to be the supply line for most of the key positions like hooker, lock & scrumhalf. Don't both Ulster & Leinster have Munster born tightheads in their squads.

As for O'Leary - looks like he is on his way to France and will probably be back playing for Leinster in 2/3 years when Reddan & Boss retire.

Geoff, is there anything the IRFU can do to force the provinces to give these guys gametime, or is it not possible unless they are central contracted?

Sin é wrote:



By the way, in the Wolfhounds game at the start of the 6Ns, O'Leary looked the best of the options and anyway,

He only got that Wolfhounds game because Marshall was wrongly left out of the squad despite playing about two levels above any recent form O'Leary has shown.Yet another example of a Kidney selection mistake.

Sin é wrote: Or ... Boss should be back up starting for Ulster with Pienaar at 10. But you have to keep the family in a job in Ulster.

Only someone who knows nothing about David Humphreys would post such drivel.

clivemcl wrote:Geoff, is there anything the IRFU can do to force the provinces to give these guys gametime, or is it not possible unless they are central contracted?

Dublin have put pressure on Ulster to play certain players in certain positions even if not centrally contract e.g this year they wanted Declan Fitzpatrick to play a minimum number of games at TH. This has not occurred due to injury. In the end Dublin pull the purse strings and can and do apply pressure if they want.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Can you not get the fact that D'Arcy is the best of a bad lot. McFadden & Wallace are not up to it. I think that Luke Fitz is the long term solution at 12. At least he is international standard and can run a support line.

No I can't get my head around that fact as for 3 years D'Arcy has been proving you wrong.If I concede that McFadden and Wallace are not up to it that still doesn't justify picking D'Arcy no matter how many times he lets us down.Wallace has been an improvement on D'Arcy every time I've seen him play for Ireland in the last 3 years and the fact that you think Luke Fitz is the answer when he hasn't played 12 in several years and shows no signs of ever playing there again is pretty damning on how seriously I should take your opinion on Irelands problems at centre.

D'Arcy hasn't been proving me anything! You must have missed the two two Welsh games then if you think Wallace is an improvement. McFadden or Wallace have hardly been convincing either. Ireland have conceeded a stupid try every time McFadden has started at centre. He has leaked as many trys as he has scored (3).

Luke Fitz has ability and the top couple of inches and is international standard - he also has the size and pace to play inside centre and has a decent offload. He is also only 24 and coming into his prime. I don't think his future is on the wing - with Conway, Kearney Jnr, Gilroy and Zebo emerging.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Or ... Boss should be back up starting for Ulster with Pienaar at 10. But you have to keep the family in a job in Ulster.

Only someone who knows nothing about David Humphreys would post such drivel.

Well then explain why was it put about that Pienaar only wanted to play 9 but yet said when signing his new contract that he had no problem playing 9 or 10, he just didn't want to play fullback.

Of course there is also all this nonsense of Dublin forcing Ulster to play Paddy Wallace at 10 for a couple of Pro 12 games a season. FFS, he is on a central contract. The only reason he is on a central contract is to be the real emergency, never to be used backup outhalf. Of course Ulster always make a song and dance about it and play him in games that they are more than likely not going to win anyway (like Leinster & Munster away) and then produce the poor mouth that big bad Dublin made them rest so many.

No wonder team Ireland has problems winning games with this attitude that you can make excuses for losing.

Sin é wrote:
D'Arcy hasn't been proving me anything! You must have missed the two two Welsh games then if you think Wallace is an improvement. McFadden or Wallace have hardly been convincing either. Ireland have conceeded a stupid try every time McFadden has started at centre. He has leaked as many trys as he has scored (3).

Luke Fitz has ability and the top couple of inches and is international standard - he also has the size and pace to play inside centre and has a decent offload. He is also only 24 and coming into his prime. I don't think his future is on the wing - with Conway, Kearney Jnr, Gilroy and Zebo emerging.

You must have missed almost every match D'Arcy has played since 2010 if you think Wallace isn't an improvement.It's also a good thing I'm not advocating McFadden starting at 13 then because I don't think he has ever started at 12 for Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

No wonder team Ireland has problems winning games with this attitude that you can make excuses for losing.

Why are you making excuses for Kidney then if you've such a winning mentality.

geoff998rugby wrote:Understood Notch it was Sin e my post was primarily referring too.

By claiming Wallace is better now than D'Arcy or Tuohy is better than DOC you are accused of bias.

My post was just to illustrate that in many other ways that is not a claim that can be made.

My first choice 2nd row is POC and Ryan and my preferred choice at 12 is BOD.

Mind you I am probably biased in claiming Cave at 13 is part of my best XV.

Tuohy is inconsistent and too short for an international lock at 6'5". If Muller was playing for Ireland, he might be worth a shot as at least they have built up a bit of a parnership.

Anyway, Tuohy was more than likely left out of the 6Ns because he missed the start of the international season through injury. He would have missed out on all the world cup training camps.

Don't forget as well that Leo Cullen was initially in the 6Ns squad and then went off for a shoulder op.

Cave seems to be very injury prone - and I don't think he has the pace for international rugby anyway. Problem with him is that as he only plays one position, he is either a starter or nothing. He was behind McFadden in the pecking order for the world cup. If he played another position, he might have had a chance.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No wonder team Ireland has problems winning games with this attitude that you can make excuses for losing.

Why are you making excuses for Kidney then if you've such a winning mentality.

I realise that its the players that play the matches, not the coaches. deccie Kidney aint a prop which is where Ireland were killed yesterday and which caused all the player heads to drop.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:



By the way, in the Wolfhounds game at the start of the 6Ns, O'Leary looked the best of the options and anyway,

He only got that Wolfhounds game because Marshall was wrongly left out of the squad despite playing about two levels above any recent form O'Leary has shown.Yet another example of a Kidney selection mistake.

He was still way better than Boss though. After Kearney jnr, one of the better players.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No wonder team Ireland has problems winning games with this attitude that you can make excuses for losing.

Why are you making excuses for Kidney then if you've such a winning mentality.

I realise that its the players that play the matches, not the coaches. deccie Kidney aint a prop which is where Ireland were killed yesterday and which caused all the player heads to drop.

Yet you fail to realise that he picks the players and chooses the gameplan that they employ,he has been found wanting in both areas numerous times but you just bury your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:



By the way, in the Wolfhounds game at the start of the 6Ns, O'Leary looked the best of the options and anyway,

He only got that Wolfhounds game because Marshall was wrongly left out of the squad despite playing about two levels above any recent form O'Leary has shown.Yet another example of a Kidney selection mistake.

He was still way better than Boss though. After Kearney jnr, one of the better players.

Yes he played better than Boss in one half of one game,it's a pity he couln't do it a bit more often at a higher level.

Also surely you remember the intercept try he gave away against France and his poor form up to the world cup,going on your justification for leaving out Paddy Wallace then by the same token O'Leary shouldn't ever play for Ireland again.

Sin, you know Tuohy is the same height as Lionel Nallet right? Oh no, you do. I remember from the last 10 times I've seen this argument. Boring.

Cullen- now there's another player who is a better option than DOC. And I'm not bashing DOC for no reason, he's been a legend for Ireland and Munster. But he's another guy who just isn't having the same impact in games as he was when we were actually a good team. In many games his impact isn't nearly high enough in all areas.

You'll get the standard hyperbolic response that DOC is useless. He's not useless. He's a good player who is very much on a downward curve in his career and is no longer able to command a guaranteed starting place for his province.

I agree with some of your criticisms of Tuohy. He is inconsistent and he does at times go missing from games. But at his best his lineout work is very good, he is genuinely dynamic around the park, he has good ball-handling skills and he's got the potential to get a lot better.

I think what you aren't getting about D'Arcy vs McFadden and DOC vs Tuohy (although actually Donnacha Ryan is still very much ahead of Tuohy anyway) is that it's not just that people think they are better now. Everyone can see O'Callaghan and D'Arcy are pretty much past the peak of their careers whereas the players others are advocating have yet to reach that peak.

If you look at Warren Gatland and Wales, he's taken a number of players who were good but nothing special for their regions and improved them as players. Success has followed. I get the impression that in Ireland because these young guys aren't bedecked in Heineken Cups winners medals like DOC and D'Arce they 'aren't ready'. Well, they might not be ready. But if they have the potential to actually be better than the incumbents and the incumbents are incredibly disappointing then it's part of our coaches job to take them and make them ready! To improve them as players. That's how winning teams are built and our chance of winning more trophies with the current bunch is probably gone.

Is it easy to do that? No it absolutely is not. I have sympathy for our coaches- they have limited time with players, a huge emphasis on short-term results and an unsympathetic fan base. The lack of time to mould a team is probably why international rugby looks so error strewn at times and suffers as a spectacle in comparison to the Heineken Cup for example. It's also why the SH have a very clear advantage. Their international season is continuos.

But if our coaches don't start taking new blood in and moulding them into long-term replacements for a few legendary servants in our team at the end of their usefulness, we are entering the dark ages all over again.

Good post Notch

Anyone know if theres anywhere I could watch the schools cup final online?

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Or ... Boss should be back up starting for Ulster with Pienaar at 10. But you have to keep the family in a job in Ulster.

Only someone who knows nothing about David Humphreys would post such drivel.

Well then explain why was it put about that Pienaar only wanted to play 9 but yet said when signing his new contract that he had no problem playing 9 or 10, he just didn't want to play fullback.

Of course there is also all this nonsense of Dublin forcing Ulster to play Paddy Wallace at 10 for a couple of Pro 12 games a season. FFS, he is on a central contract. The only reason he is on a central contract is to be the real emergency, never to be used backup outhalf. Of course Ulster always make a song and dance about it and play him in games that they are more than likely not going to win anyway (like Leinster & Munster away) and then produce the poor mouth that big bad Dublin made them rest so many.

No wonder team Ireland has problems winning games with this attitude that you can make excuses for losing.

You making things up Sin e doesn't make them true.

Whoever put it about that Pienaer wanted to only play 9 - it wan't he club. Ulster managment believe that 9 is a more important position in the modern game than 10. That is open to debate but it is their opinion. Therefore they signed a World Class 9 with the added bonus he could play 10. That has been the position from day 1.

The fact that Paddy Wallace has been forced to play 10 for a couple of games is a simple fact. It has not been used as an excuse for any defeat, in fact the club have not commented upon it at all - so I have no idea where you got that from.
This is all a figment of your over extended imagination.

The point being, which is the important one, is why Dublin do not use this same pressure more to get certain players to play a minimum number of games in other positions e.g McFadden at 12 or Hagan at 3.

Sin you are trying to deflect blame off kidney by bringing up provincial statements like Humphreys at ulster or your contention that somehow tommy Bowe contrived to make ROG tackle a player in the air (that one is pure gold by the way).

You mention Wallace making mistakes in two games against the welsh yet in neither game was he playing 12 but rather wing and 15.

I do think that we need to be giving Marshall gametime over paddy next season (selected games mind you) but paddy is still 1st choice. In the same way I think we need to start giving Jackson games over humph. The succession planning does need to start happening at provincial level as much as international and it isnt enough to give these young guys just the odd game.

A new coach, a fresh perspective and a different approach to the game is needed as feckless alluded to in a great post previously. Kidney has shown he isnt comfortable playing the game the way all the successful teams are currently playing it and he needs to be honest with himself.

I'd also make a comment on yet more of Sin's little tales but I don't want to be jumping on the bandwagon - so I'll just say that Sin - you should form your opinion from facts, not look for facts to back up your opinion - most of the stuff you post is completely made up.

I recall when Pienaar signed for Ulster he said that he wanted to play 9, didn't particularly want to play 10 and definitely wasn't going to play 15 - so no he didn't say he had no problem playing 10 - any source to show when and where Pienaar said that?

BlueMuff wrote:Interesting that nobody has answered dod regards Schmidt picking darcy and bod for Leinster....

The reason is its a lazy excuse to blame deccie! Yes we all could have done one or two things differently but fact is too many players are not performing. Heaslip sob doc bowe reddan /tol Trimble. The fact that Ross and Healy get mangled in the scrum! Sexton is mr average and is not controlling the games

These are not the Ireland coaches fault

No, you're right; coaches are responsible for nothing but get paid anyway just to keep them off the dole register. Coaches - I want to be one of those. Do nothing, ship no blame but get paid all the same. And if your team actually does something good or, praise the Lord, actually wins, then your fans get vocal telling us all just how much the Coach influences the side. Up until then though, they're not to blame.

Meanwhile, that's a whole helluvalot of bad selection going on there with that there underperforming Irish team. How long has that being going on? Since the beginning of this Six Nations? Only that long?

Heaslip rubbish, SOB rubbish, DOC rubbish, Bowe rubbish, Redden rubbish, TOL rubbish, Trimble rubbish, Ross rubbish, Healy rubbish, Sexton rubbish. Who selects a team like that over and over? Who gives a team like that the benefit of the doubt over and over? Who gives a team like that more chances to redeem themselves than is prudent? Who'll give them more chances to redeem themselves in NZ? Who picked them in the first place? What did he ever see in them? Where does he rate them? What league does he judge them in?

And finally we get to D'arcy and O'Driscoll for Leinster. That's the whole point in a nutshell. Players with something to cling to, like a real gameplan that exploits their strengths, can be effective. Players with nothing - absolutely nothing - to cling to in the kick-away dross Ireland play will wilt under the pressure. It's not rocket science, it's bad rugby... and someone creates that strategy, and it isn't the players.

Murray rubbish, McFadden rubbish, Zebo not good enough yet, Earls not a 13, Dave Kearney not the right time......................................and on and on and on.

Lol well put Fly

aucklandlaurie wrote: Ireland cannot just blame the scrum for that loss today.

Auckland

Please share what you have seen that nobody else has. Not sarcasm just interested

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No wonder team Ireland has problems winning games with this attitude that you can make excuses for losing.

Why are you making excuses for Kidney then if you've such a winning mentality.

I realise that its the players that play the matches, not the coaches. deccie Kidney aint a prop which is where Ireland were killed yesterday and which caused all the player heads to drop.

Yet you fail to realise that he picks the players and chooses the gameplan that they employ,he has been found wanting in both areas numerous times but you just bury your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it.

What went wrong with the gameplan yesterday was that Ireland had to play a guy at TH who normally plays LH.

Then the weather conditions didn't help. Last year for the win in the 6Ns against England the scrum situation was:

2011 6Ns: Ireland won 13; England won 6.
2012 6Ns: England won 15; Ireland won 3.

And fly what responsibility do highly paid players have are you suggesting that its a coaches responsibility motivate players???

Kidney is not perfect by any means but this soccer type reaction to sack the coach is just very short sighted! Stag asked what do people want in a new coach and the only response so far is a foreign one hmmm

Sin é wrote:
What went wrong with the gameplan yesterday was that Ireland had to play a guy at TH who normally plays LH.

Then the weather conditions didn't help. Last year for the win in the 6Ns against England the scrum situation was:

2011 6Ns: Ireland won 13; England won 6.
2012 6Ns: England won 15; Ireland won 3.

I see so the question is why are you trying to pigeonhole the argument.We're talking about Kidneys entire tenure as Ireland coach not just the England game.

Blue

It isn't a soccer style reaction. It has building because his record at international level is immensely poor. Our win ratio since 2010 is less than 50 % and that includes playing the likes of Russia.

BlueMuff wrote:And fly what responsibility do highly paid players have are you suggesting that its a coaches responsibility motivate players???

I don't think it's a question of motivation BM. The players are expending large amounts of energy defending. And running themselves into the ground chasing kicks. The problem is the actual gameplan they are following is never going to be successful. Their efforts are in vain. Teams tend to eventually implode under pressure when the players have no belief they can win.

[quote="Standulstermen"]Sin you are trying to deflect blame off kidney by bringing up provincial statements like Humphreys at ulster or your contention that somehow tommy Bowe contrived to make ROG tackle a player in the air (that one is pure gold by the way).

the only contention I'm making is that ROG had some excuses for the Lions debacle (knock on head and he thought Bowe was going to run onto it), Paddy Wallace has no excuses for his stupidity in both those Wales games. And anyone who has seen Earls try against Leinster in the Magners Final know that would have scored that try because he is a fantastic finisher.


You mention Wallace making mistakes in two games against the welsh yet in neither game was he playing 12 but rather wing and 15.
It was his decision making under pressure that was in question.

I do think that we need to be giving Marshall gametime over paddy next season (selected games mind you) but paddy is still 1st choice. In the same way I think we need to start giving Jackson games over humph. The succession planning does need to start happening at provincial level as much as international and it isnt enough to give these young guys just the odd game.
Agreed there. If Paddy Wallace is still Ulster's best choice at 12, then he should be starting there. Young players need to have a bit of fight in them as well as natural talent

A new coach, a fresh perspective and a different approach to the game is needed as feckless alluded to in a great post previously. Kidney has shown he isnt comfortable playing the game the way all the successful teams are currently playing it and he needs to be honest with himself.
Listen to Paul O'Connell on the subject of the game Ireland played prior to Kidney taking over the coaching.

Sin é wrote:
A new coach, a fresh perspective and a different approach to the game is needed as feckless alluded to in a great post previously. Kidney has shown he isnt comfortable playing the game the way all the successful teams are currently playing it and he needs to be honest with himself.
Listen to Paul O'Connell on the subject of the game Ireland played prior to Kidney taking over the coaching.

Enlighten us please Sin,tell us what PoC said or provide a link and we'll make form an opinion.

[quote="geoff998rugby"]

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Or ... Boss should be back up starting for Ulster with Pienaar at 10. But you have to keep the family in a job in Ulster.

Only someone who knows nothing about David Humphreys would post such drivel.

Well then explain why was it put about that Pienaar only wanted to play 9 but yet said when signing his new contract that he had no problem playing 9 or 10, he just didn't want to play fullback.

Of course there is also all this nonsense of Dublin forcing Ulster to play Paddy Wallace at 10 for a couple of Pro 12 games a season. FFS, he is on a central contract. The only reason he is on a central contract is to be the real emergency, never to be used backup outhalf. Of course Ulster always make a song and dance about it and play him in games that they are more than likely not going to win anyway (like Leinster & Munster away) and then produce the poor mouth that big bad Dublin made them rest so many.

No wonder team Ireland has problems winning games with this attitude that you can make excuses for losing.

You making things up Sin e doesn't make them true.

Whoever put it about that Pienaer wanted to only play 9 - it wan't he club. Ulster managment believe that 9 is a more important position in the modern game than 10. That is open to debate but it is their opinion. Therefore they signed a World Class 9 with the added bonus he could play 10. That has been the position from day 1.

How would I make that up? Ulster rugby must have told Boss that Pienaar was coming in as a 9. Isn't that why he decided he was moving on because he would obviously be not first choice 9 with Pienaar. I'd imagine Boss would have stayed if he thought he was going to partner Pienaar at outhalf.

The fact that Paddy Wallace has been forced to play 10 for a couple of games is a simple fact. It has not been used as an excuse for any defeat, in fact the club have not commented upon it at all - so I have no idea where you got that from. This is all a figment of your over extended imagination.

Ulster are the only club that specifically mention the player resting rotation thing. Munster didn't comment on why DRyan was being given games at 6 at the end of last season. They never comment that they are sending out the youngsters due to Ireland player rotation (and Munster generally do send up a younger team to Belfast for instance. I doubt if POC, wally or ROG have been up there since the early '00s. Yet you don't get the excuses from Munster. Same with Leinster when they send out the kids.

The point being, which is the important one, is why Dublin do not use this same pressure more to get certain players to play a minimum number of games in other positions e.g McFadden at 12 or Hagan at 3.

Hagan has 8+6 games for Leinster. At Munster, John Hayes in particular had to be kept going for Ireland with gametime. Same with Mushy. DRyan got time at 6 (and as it turned out it got him to the world cup as a utility forward).

No one complains about it though.

In the same way you question paddy wallace decision making sin I question kidneys win ratio of less than 50% in the last two years

DOD wrote:No scrum no attack....but nice try in deflecting attention away from the uselessness from some of the players. Today mostly from leinster..even before Ross went off.

Redden useless
Heaslip useless
O'BRIEN useless
Healey Useless
Darcy useless
Sexton non existent

Try discussing what happened today rather than making up something about kidney where he has to deal with the best props in Ireland not being Irish.

Yeah but all of the Munster and Ulster players were useless too. The thing connecting their uselessness at International level is their International coaching staff. Doesn't take a genius to work it out

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
A new coach, a fresh perspective and a different approach to the game is needed as feckless alluded to in a great post previously. Kidney has shown he isnt comfortable playing the game the way all the successful teams are currently playing it and he needs to be honest with himself.
Listen to Paul O'Connell on the subject of the game Ireland played prior to Kidney taking over the coaching.

Enlighten us please Sin,tell us what PoC said or provide a link and we'll make form an opinion.

It was in the 6Ns GS documentary. Basically he said that for years Ireland played a back orientated game that didn't work. Something like "you have to earn the right to go wide". The backs turned over ball the whole time because they got hammered in tackles when it went wide too quickly.

Standulstermen wrote:In the same way you question paddy wallace decision making sin I question kidneys win ratio of less than 50% in the last two years

The players are not under robotic control from the coaching team. The better players can play what is in front of them.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
A new coach, a fresh perspective and a different approach to the game is needed as feckless alluded to in a great post previously. Kidney has shown he isnt comfortable playing the game the way all the successful teams are currently playing it and he needs to be honest with himself.
Listen to Paul O'Connell on the subject of the game Ireland played prior to Kidney taking over the coaching.

Enlighten us please Sin,tell us what PoC said or provide a link and we'll make form an opinion.

It was in the 6Ns GS documentary. Basically he said that for years Ireland played a back orientated game that didn't work. Something like "you have to earn the right to go wide". The backs turned over ball the whole time because they got hammered in tackles when it went wide too quickly.

This is totally true, you do have to earn the right to go out wide, but with the Irish players available in the back row, you should be able to get that right a lot during games now. Once you have that right you also have to use it, or the hard work of the forwards has been wasted. It is senseless to blame the England defeat purely on the scrum- when you get down to it, rucks are a lot more competitive than scrums and there should be, even in the dire weather and handling of Saturday, a lot more of them, so you can always get possession through another route

Feckless Rogue wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:And fly what responsibility do highly paid players have are you suggesting that its a coaches responsibility motivate players???

I don't think it's a question of motivation BM. The players are expending large amounts of energy defending. And running themselves into the ground chasing kicks. The problem is the actual gameplan they are following is never going to be successful. Their efforts are in vain. Teams tend to eventually implode under pressure when the players have no belief they can win.

I think a fair few players feel they have done it all now, and have lost their hunger for success. People remark on how hungry/competitive ROG is despite his advanced years. It is possible.