Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

Bottom line is we have been playing Poopie, unsuccessful rugby for 3 years. If its the players fault then they shouldnt picked.

majesticimperialman wrote:
Is Irelands performance realy down to Kidey, and Kidney alone? Ireland have a lot of experence players in their squad, they have more, alot more caps than the England team have.

You can bet your bottom dollar the English player's antics in New Zealand wasn't the fault of Johnson. But England did the hatchet job nonetheless - and now very few of them are feeling any nostalgia for the Johnson days. New coach, fresh ideas and young players eager to make a name for themselves under the clean white sheet smell of 'newness'.

Ireland Inc is now officially stale. It's not going to be revived with a little time in an oven. I think we'll be eating it for a few more months yet but already I'm sure the IRFU are beginning to turn their thoughts to 'regime change'.

Sorry to take us back to the topic of the thread but i have mentioned this twice and not one person has justified it...

Is a less than 50% win ratio over the past two years acceptable for the coach of Ireland?

Fly I said he didnt give the younger players enough gametime after the beating we got from Leinster in the HC semi. I still think he is conservative..

Now you will immediately go for the alleged similarities with the Irish coach...however McGahan has both the league, HC and B&I cup to work with.

The national coach needs to pick the best players to win games. For me McGahan was not picking the best players or players of a similar level to those in situ. The national coach does not have the same flexibility to "gamble" for that is surely what it is.

Robinson is gambling and look at what is happening with Scotland. Brunnel is not with Italy and they have definitely improved. Gatland after three years of experimenting and a couple of other talented players being found has got there...but we dont have those players except in one or two positions...

Outside of maybe four players which were debatable Kidney has played his best team...tactics on occassion have been debatable but the players have not stood up or been good enough....

I would like to see some boldness in terms of decisions being made...for example POM is going to have a long career for Ireland...make him Captain (in fact McGahan should make him Captain of Munster instead of POC) and play him...

I dont think being 8 in the world or 4th makes a difference in terms of getting a top coach or not...I am not convinced it will make a difference....It will be Brian Ashton all over....

As for your comment on "regime" change....you can think it all you want or hope it but whatever yanks your chain.

Standulstermen wrote:Sorry to take us back to the topic of the thread but i have mentioned this twice and not one person has justified it...

Is a less than 50% win ratio over the past two years acceptable for the coach of Ireland?

In times of change as this surely is then fine with me..
Has a win against Aus in the SH or a draw in Paris beein acceptable?

Cheers DOD.

I would argue there hasnt been any great change in those two years but thats another argument.

You think it is acceptable. thats fair enough.

DOD wrote:Fly I said he didnt give the younger players enough gametime after the beating we got from Leinster in the HC semi. I still think he is conservative..

Now you will immediately go for the alleged similarities with the Irish coach...however McGahan has both the league, HC and B&I cup to work with.

The national coach needs to pick the best players to win games. For me McGahan was not picking the best players or players of a similar level to those in situ. The national coach does not have the same flexibility to "gamble" for that is surely what it is.

Robinson is gambling and look at what is happening with Scotland. Brunnel is not with Italy and they have definitely improved. Gatland after three years of experimenting and a couple of other talented players being found has got there...but we dont have those players except in one or two positions...

Outside of maybe four players which were debatable Kidney has played his best team...tactics on occassion have been debatable but the players have not stood up or been good enough....

I would like to see some boldness in terms of decisions being made...for example POM is going to have a long career for Ireland...make him Captain (in fact McGahan should make him Captain of Munster instead of POC) and play him...

I dont think being 8 in the world or 4th makes a difference in terms of getting a top coach or not...I am not convinced it will make a difference....It will be Brian Ashton all over....

As for your comment on "regime" change....you can think it all you want or hope it but whatever yanks your chain.

But what are you waiting for DOD? Why do you always want to be seen as the patient one, waiting for Kidney to turn it all around. Maybe it's simply that you have your team (Munster) and the rest is an added bonus if it happens but not the end of the world if it doesn't. Legitimate opinion. Fine if that's your attitude, I certainly couldn't share it.

You say a national coach can't gamble. Yes he can, that's all he needs to do - think it and do it. Gambling with the top is probably foolhardy and counterproductive given that if you're top you can guarantee your gameplan and players are a tight package. But gambling from a place of 8th is no gamble at all - it's practically self explanatory that there is nothing left to risk; as 8th isn't a position any international side is looking for at the moment.

You say give POM the Captaincy. The only reason he's on the side is because of injury - not because Kidney had faith in him. If he's good enough to come on for an injury then he's good enough for a game when the incumbant isn't injured. And we're back to McGahan again.

On the 'regime' thing - do explain? Regime change in my book is shorthand for a group of leaders who are removed from power. If the current coaching team were removed from power (for that is what they have) then that would be regime change. You infer I hate Munstermen. I don't care who gets the job DOD - Munsterman, Leinsterman or foreigner - what I do care about is that we move on rather than sit back and yawn and say we just don't have the players to compete with England or France or Wales, live with it and stop moaning about Kidney. The day I say we don't have the players of the calibre of Wales, or the day I believe it even without saying it, is the day I'll roll over and die.

Are dropping balls, brain farts and not being Australian the sole preserve of the Ireland team? There have been plenty of times that's happened to the teams that finished above Ireland this 6N. If the coach has complete absolution for the performances then what is going wrong with the players? These are the same players who consistently enjoy at the very least parity with their Welsh and English counterparts at club level. So logically what makes them under-perform with a green shirt on?

Perhaps there is some anti-Irish wizard disgruntled at Ireland's prowess in Quidditch casting spells or putting a hex on them, hmmm... or alternatively the coaching they have at provincial level allows them to play their natural games, rather than try to play in a way they're unfamiliar with. On balance I'd go with the last one.

jesus this thread is hard work and i have only read half of it.

end of the day we have had 18 months of poor performances and poor results culminating in a walloping by our bitter rivals on paddys day. the players have played poorly but the buck stops with the head coach. Of course it is not is all Kidneys fault and there have been other factors but he is head coach so gets credit in good times and flack in bad times. its the nature of the beast. he is not bambi even though irish media and some on here treat him like it

The bar is simply not high enough to play for Ireland. Lads are picked for their supposed big game experience but do not deliver big game performances and have not done in a long while. If you have undroppable players in a squad it breeds complacency and poor results. We have seen this with the peformances of Heaslip, Darcy and Donners to a lesser extent, there are others. Alternatives are suggested and Sin E and the troops shoot most of them down straight away. No other country in world rugby has such a backward attitude to trying something different. Do you think an All Black centre would get away with 2 years of consistent poor performances?? would he f@ck. We will never know if Mc Fadden, Tuohy etc can cut it unless we give them a proper run of games. They have not had this yet. Yerrah we would not know about Ryan unless POC got injured. He has been excellent in the two games. He is 29 and best newcomer. Sums it up.

To summarize Deccies performance in 6 nations - For me he retreated into his shell completely due to the pressure of a poor win/loss ratio and a missed chance at world cup. This meant no changes, no fresh blood and a game plan that involved kicking the leather off the thing and chasing it. Dark ages stuff. Yes we scored some nice trys but typically they were from off the cuff moments of genius and not to coherent attacking. His selections were baffling. If its not working lets not try and fix it. it has been clear to all that we lack power and cutting edge in midfield. we try nothing. Clear our back row is not balanced, what does he do nothing. He got what he deserved. 2 wins against poor sides and a rude awakening v a team who actually tried new things and selected on form. He also decided we do not need a recognized backs coach. major balls up for me. And i do not care what try stats say.

There is some loser talk spouted on here by DOD etc. oh we just do not have the players to compete against the almighty powers of England, Wales, France etc. Its embarrasing. If Munster had that attitude they would be livid. Thankfully they dont

I simply want to see us try and make progress as we have the players to challenge for 6 nations titles and play decent rugby. We have not done so and with hindsight im am actually glad we got pumped on Saturday. Now we might learn something and shake things up a bit. Not holding my breath though

dublin_dave wrote:jesus this thread is hard work and i have only read half of it.

end of the day we have had 18 months of poor performances and poor results culminating in a walloping by our bitter rivals on paddys day. the players have played poorly but the buck stops with the head coach. Of course it is not is all Kidneys fault and there have been other factors but he is head coach so gets credit in good times and flack in bad times. its the nature of the beast. he is not bambi even though irish media and some on here treat him like it

The bar is simply not high enough to play for Ireland. Lads are picked for their supposed big game experience but do not deliver big game performances and have not done in a long while. If you have undroppable players in a squad it breeds complacency and poor results. We have seen this with the peformances of Heaslip, Darcy and Donners to a lesser extent, there are others. Alternatives are suggested and Sin E and the troops shoot most of them down straight away. No other country in world rugby has such a backward attitude to trying something different. Do you think an All Black centre would get away with 2 years of consistent poor performances?? would he f@ck. We will never know if Mc Fadden, Tuohy etc can cut it unless we give them a proper run of games. They have not had this yet. Yerrah we would not know about Ryan unless POC got injured. He has been excellent in the two games. He is 29 and best newcomer. Sums it up.

To summarize Deccies performance in 6 nations - For me he retreated into his shell completely due to the pressure of a poor win/loss ratio and a missed chance at world cup. This meant no changes, no fresh blood and a game plan that involved kicking the leather off the thing and chasing it. Dark ages stuff. Yes we scored some nice trys but typically they were from off the cuff moments of genius and not to coherent attacking. His selections were baffling. If its not working lets not try and fix it. it has been clear to all that we lack power and cutting edge in midfield. we try nothing. Clear our back row is not balanced, what does he do nothing. He got what he deserved. 2 wins against poor sides and a rude awakening v a team who actually tried new things and selected on form. He also decided we do not need a recognized backs coach. major balls up for me. And i do not care what try stats say.

There is some loser talk spouted on here by DOD etc. oh we just do not have the players to compete against the almighty powers of England, Wales, France etc. Its embarrasing. If Munster had that attitude they would be livid. Thankfully they dont

I simply want to see us try and make progress as we have the players to challenge for 6 nations titles and play decent rugby. We have not done so and with hindsight im am actually glad we got pumped on Saturday. Now we might learn something and shake things up a bit. Not holding my breath though

100% Spot on!

I was laughing at that post, dave.

Don't know why as nothing you say is exactly funny. Maybe I just find passion a giddy emotion and you express the passion I like. No we're not poor cousins to the big bad men of Europe with their large and brutal backs and forwards. We have the players with the skills to Grand Slam this competition just every bit as convincingly as we've often 'Grand Slamed' the HC. If we don't want to believe that then that's what will hold us back. If we do choose to believe it, however, then our players are quite capable of doing it for us...even without Paulie and O'Driscoll.

dublin_dave wrote:Do you think an All Black centre would get away with 2 years of consistent poor performances?? would he f@ck.

If an All Black played like D'arcy in one training session he'd be given a dressing down. If he played like that in a 2nd training session he'd be sent to train with the reserves. Which he would probably find a bit humiliating. The idea is to demand excellence in training under genuine pressure, so they can achieve excellence under the genuine pressure of a test match.

I believe that in sport, continuously selecting players who are not performing results in a drop in team morale and a culture of mediocrity. Ruthlessly demanding high standards and rewarding good form has the opposite effect. I think Kidney is wrong to keep selecting D'arcy. Although Sin E is right that there really is a lack of top class alternatives. There is not a lack of alternatives who would be no worse, and might just prove to be better if given the chance.

But every coach in the world gets criticized for selections. Sin et al are also right that what Kidney puts out is close to our best 15 on paper. I just wouldn't mind if the players believed they might get dropped if they played badly. And would stay dropped if their replacement played well. But I don't want to dwell on that. My main problem with the coaching team remains the way the team plays. Why is Ireland's support play worse than the provinces? Even if you think test rugby is a different planet to HC rugby, the strength of the opposition shouldn't have a major effect on how a player runs off the ball. The problem is the way the test team is instructed to play rugby is different to the way the provincial teams are instructed to play rugby. They are excelling at the provinces and performing poorly for the test team.

That's why I think the coaching team is a clear problem.

Dragonbreath
It is two days since I watched the game and made the comment,but to answer your question.
Although the scrum netted England a penalty try,a truck load of penalties even possession against the head,I still feel that Ireland should have concerns for a number issues besides the scrum.
In the first half although Ireland mixed it with England,the small amount of possession they did have was wasted,I'm not saying Ireland kicked too much but rather put in the wrong types of kicks,Bombs needed to be spiral ,deeper and higher,rather than just easy pickings for Engalnd. that ball and surface looked pretty greasy to me,more grubber type kicks behind the English backline and let them run the risk of ball handling mistakes.I must say the regathering by Kearney (I think it was)of his own up and under was one of the non squandered kicks,however I dont think I need to dwell on other O'Leary for example.
When the English team was announced one would presume that considered thought went into possible avenues where Ireland might have an opportunity,but nothing in general play showed where they were trying to attempt to apply pressure at any identified weeknesses.I personally would have had a look at behind Tuilagi when hes up and fast ball wide when hes back???
Ireland was too sloppy,too inaccurate with the ball,need an open side flanker,backs that at least need to be seen to be trying something adventurous -a couple of simple double arounds would make a change,just anything looking to either create a hole or put a man in a hole or an overlap would be nice.
But to blame it all on the scrum,sorry no.

DOD wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sorry to take us back to the topic of the thread but i have mentioned this twice and not one person has justified it...

Is a less than 50% win ratio over the past two years acceptable for the coach of Ireland?

In times of change as this surely is then fine with me..
Has a win against Aus in the SH or a draw in Paris beein acceptable?

Our record in the last year against sides in the top 8 off the rankings is

Won 1
Drawn 1
Lost 6

I think that is completely unacceptable.

The game has moved on since Kidney was so successful with Munster - he hasn't moved on.
Kidney is a coach for yesterday not for tomorrow.

The Great Aukster wrote:All those who said before the Scotland game that four games in four weeks were too much have been vindicated. There were calls for Kidney to rest players against Scotland and he should have. Instead he chose to flog the players by picking the same ones even though they were obviously tired in body and mind. That was a prime case for a little bit of creative thinking by DK and he didn't show any.

Spot on

The Great Aukster wrote:Everyone knows that Tom Court isn't a tight head, yet in every game there is a chance that he has to play there. Are we expected to believe that if TC has to come on at tighthead, this coaching team just throw their hands in the air and concede the game? They surely have a better plan than that?

No they dont and it is unacceptable

The whole TH situation has been so mishandled by Dublin that Saturday was a train crash waiting to happen.

Simon Best for years the one player who could provide cover for both sides. No one has come along since who can do that job. When he had to retire that was a hugh warning and Dublin should then have had a strategy to cover for the inevitabilty that Hayes woudl have to retire some day.

So what did they do put all there hopes on Buckley coming good. Even when it was clear to all he wasn't up to it fingers were crossed and we hoped he would come good - he didn't

We got lucky in that Hayes soldered on for longer than planned and didn't get injured and a night on a white horse emerged in the unlikely guise of Mike Ross. These two events papered over the yawning gap.

Because we thought Buckley was the answer we neglected the possible alternatives - Bracken, Andress and now Hagan.
Bracken is lost to Ireland, Andress has, probably, given up on Ireland and is happy to ply his trade in England and Hagan is no longer getting regular game time due to a move from Connacht to Leinster.

Not saying we would be in a good place but we should be in a much much better place than we are now.

We neglected these players and hoped Buckley would come good - Kidney brought into this. We should not have ignored Bracken and Andress because they were playing in England. They should have been in the squad.

Now we should have Andress, Hagan, Fitzpatrick and Macklin in dedicated a TH prop school with the best coach we can to get them up to speed. Continued neglect and we have a serious problem.

Where would a 6 month lay off for Ross leave us ? - Completely and utterly up the proverbial creek

Im not sure we ever put all our hopes on Tony Buckley.

Over an 18 month period I remember Kidney trialling Tom Court, John Hayes, Mike Ross and Tony Buckley at tight head. One (Ross) was good - the rest were rubbish.

We will see Hagan, Archer, Fitzpatrick et al get a chance too.

Overall though I feel this coaching team has made too many mistakes and we would do better with someone else.

I think we did put all our hopes on Buckley.

Kidney didnt trial Hayes we was already there and getting old.
Ross was only considered once the penny droped that Buckley wasnt going to make it.

If Kidney seriously trialled Tom Court as a TH he is idiot.
Anyone who knows anything about front row play knows his technique is all wrong for a TH.

BTW no way in hell should we have gone for Bracken. Andress for me is the only other option we had.

BTW no way in hell should we have gone for Bracken. Andress for me is the only other option we had.

I dont think there is a hope in hell that Archer will be good enough.

geoff998rugby wrote:I dont think there is a hope in hell that Archer will be good enough.

I agree with you that right now he isnt. Hagan and Andress are cleraly our next ports of call.

Never is a strong word to use about such a young prop who will by necessity end up getting a lot of top end game time for Munster.

Leinster are showing faith in Hagan by shipping White to Connacht next season, he hasn’t gotten a huge amount of gametime but he’s been working really hard in training and a massive emphasis has been put on his scrummaging. He’ll be firmly installed as our number 2 TH next season and will hopefully become the horses for course choice when we’re putting out a mobile front row, with Ross being the choice when we need to play a tighter game (ala Healy and VDM).

The game was won and lost in the scrum, yes there were problems in the backs, but we’ve had that at times all year. The fact is when we had something close to resembling a scrum in the first half we were certainly still in with a shout and we made England work much harder for their scores than we did. It’s a shame that some people are making Court a scapegoat here, he’s not a TH and as far as I’m concerned he never was or will be at this level, that’s not his fault. If we were more fortunate and lost Healy instead of Ross the problem wouldn’t have been so bad.

It’s a real return to form for some posters on here though I must say, anyone who decides to produce a list of players that are underperforming and just so happen to all play for another province clearly has no intentions of debating anything, they’re just trying to wind people up. Ireland f..ckd up at the weekend, and that means that all of us should care how we’re going to fix things, externalizing the problem by pushing it onto the player of another province is childish at best.

We’re in serious trouble if this coaching ticket is taking our team to New Zealand in 3 months. Serious trouble.

Having given this a miss for over a year I see nothing much has changed in Irish rugby; the Irish rugby team is certainly an Irish rugby team - personally I wouldn't exactly call it the Irish rugby team but it's the only one out there ...........

Nothing much has changed - and I suspect Mr Kidney will still be here this time next year - unless David Humphreys manages to take over running the Irish set-up which he might but not just yet. And when you only select from the 20 odd starting Irish qualified players from Munster and Leinster and the odd Ulster and even odder Connacht player it kind of sets a tone ...........

One apology from the past I have to make is to D Ryan Esq - he certainly seems to give his all in an Irish shirt even if not the completed article - can't blame him though he hasn't had the game time - shame really

POC was probably missed from a scrummaging point of view - the scrum was struggling from the off and maybe Ross wasn't getting much support? - D Ryan probably needs to learn from the master as fast as he can - and, of course, Heaslip is too bothered about messing his hair up to scrum too hard. And wasn't Court a better scrummaging loose head than Healy a few years ago ? ?

Interesting P O'Mahony on the pitch - probably only there because Leamy is injured ? But at least he's got a bit of game time now and is for the future.

In the past I have gone on about who plays No 8 if Heaslip not there or not up to it and got loads of flack - SOB might be a great 8 I don't know but he's been there just once with limited success - - -my further observation on Heaslip is that since he can back from injury he hasn't been the same player - he always had a tendency to float in and out of games (e.g. Lions tour) but now he seems to be over protecting himself - or is he just grumpy he doesn't get enough attention - whatever he's not been doing much consistently

on the other hand I am glad to see Kearney has proved all his doubters wrong - and there have been quite a few on these boards - he's a class player AND he tries - back from a bad injury but gives it his all

ref TOL - Paul Marshall - why wasn't he somewhere near the bench ? not to mention the unmentionable Boss

Sexton - wasn't that bad?? - but D'Arcy ???? ---- other backs not really relevant except some aren't big enough to tackle the Welsh ones - so why aren't some bigger backs somewhere in the pecking order albeit Cave gets injured a lot at the moment (and then Downey!! on his way back to Munster)

Finally - the Telegraph had an article that Ireland have appointed a scout to see if there are any Irish players in England - not sure why you need to appoint someone to find John Hayes brother but anyway - it's fairly obvious that people like Corbisiero aren't going to chose Ireland - as are many much more Irish qualified players given the current regime - now they've started turning up in an England shirt I guess the Irish union is finally waking up.

So Ireland is 8th in the World with 3 Tests against New Zealand to improve the situation - kill or cure I guess - and I am sure Mr Kidney will be there moving into the future ??? From here he looks secure if wobbling though I don't think anyone predicted such an indifferent 6N. He has the excuse of four matches on the trot which given the selection policy did not help.

(( and - Oh yes and as I predicted last year - Roger Wilson is going back to Ulster))

Croyman wrote:And wasn't Court a better scrummaging loosehead than Healy a few years ago ? ?

I've highlighted the key bit there

Croyman wrote:
Finally - the Telegraph had an article that Ireland have appointed a scout to see if there are any Irish players in England - not sure why you need to appoint someone to find John Hayes brother but anyway - it's fairly obvious that people like Corbisiero aren't going to chose Ireland - as are many much more Irish qualified players given the current regime - now they've started turning up in an England shirt I guess the Irish union is finally waking up.

Waking up to what? That there are players in England that might be qualified to play for Ireland? Now there's a revelation. Meanwhile, maybe the English might also realise now that they might have English players who could qualify for their side.

Croyman wrote:
POC was probably missed from a scrummaging point of view - the scrum was struggling from the off and maybe Ross wasn't getting much support? - D Ryan probably needs to learn from the master as fast as he can

The bigger problem was on DOCs; side of the scrum not Ryans' - Ryan did fine

Croyman wrote:
Interesting P O'Mahony on the pitch - probably only there because Leamy is injured ? But at least he's got a bit of game time now and is for the future.

Leamy is way doen the pecking order - behind Henry and Jennings

Croyman wrote:
ref TOL - Paul Marshall - why wasn't he somewhere near the bench ? not to mention the unmentionable Boss

Boss was/is in New Zealand - family issues.

Croyman wrote:
(( and - Oh yes and as I predicted last year - Roger Wilson is going back to Ulster))

Wow you've crystal ball - this time last year Roger Wilson had told Ulster he was not prepared to discuss his next move as he was contracted to play for Saints during the current season. Ulster did not talk to him again until just before Christmas last year. If you mean November/December last year then every man and his dog who has contacts at Ulster rugby knew so hardly a revelation

IRFU have in the last couple of days advertised for a scrum coach:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2012/0320/sixnations_ireland_scrum.html

Meanwhile Thornley has begun ranting again in possibly his 20th article on the new IRFU rules on foreign players calling it a discrace etc.

Personally I think Thornley is wrong and I salute the IRFU they aren't afraid to look for solutions for problems and they don't hang around.

Change is good but not as the IRFU are proposing.

1 player per position - good
No foreign short term replacements - good
Not allowing players to re sign - bad
Not allowing foreign players to play in more than one postion - bad

For the record I would be happy to see the number, of NIE, allowed per province to go down further to 4 in total.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Leamy is way doen the pecking order - behind Henry and Jennings

Leamy is injured. And he just signed a new IRFU 2 year contract a few weeks ago. (Tuesday, 7 February 2012 16:37)
[quote]
The IRFU have announced that Keith Earls and Denis Leamy have both penned contract extensions that will see them stay with Munster until 2014.

OK - I admit I don't understand scrums at all - but I seem to recall that Ireland conceded a penalty on about the first scrum against England ? What was that all about? let alone what happened when Court came on. I guess the front row did not get much relief in the previous matches and that might have taken its toll.

I wouldn't fault D Ryan but I'm guessing more international game time would have helped him. He'll end up like SOB - should have been picked when he was "hot". I have to say that neither SOB or Heaslip seem over enamoured with the Irish coaching staff but that's just an opinion - (the Ulster boys are just happy to be there).

I suppose the overall assessment is that there were some positives (new blood) for Ireland but a bit like France were overtaken by Wales and England's more aggressive selection policy.

With regards to Kidney - I am guessing he will be there - and I am guessing it will be the usual patching up job going forwards

--- OK and I guess the point I was making on Leamy is that he hasn't yet been dropped when available - aka MOD going the same way (and D'Arcy and .. and ..)

Oh good, the central contracts debate. Nice change

Notch wrote:Oh good, the central contracts debate. Nice change

eh. Geoff seems to think that Leamy is discarded. He isn't.

geoff998rugby wrote:Change is good but not as the IRFU are proposing.

1 player per position - good
No foreign short term replacements - good
Not allowing players to re sign - bad
Not allowing foreign players to play in more than one postion - bad

For the record I would be happy to see the number, of NIE, allowed per province to go down further to 4 in total.

Yes, reduce the numbers of NIE players per Province (even 3) but allow them to be used proficiently by coaches who know what they want and know how to best utilise them. IRFU don't know the intricacies of trying to keep Provinces on the road during imposed 'rest' times for Internationals and during periods when the International contingent are away.

Plus NIE players, that are still essential for Provincial success, will shy away from single contract deals (where a second contract is impossible, that is). We'll tend to get more genuine mercenary types for that deal. However, if they can be re-signed, the incentive is then there to perform so that new contracts will be offered at higher rates.

And no, I don't buy the bull that in order to mimic Welsh international success we have to relinquish our hold on the top reaches of the HC. Absolute nonsense. Gatland and Wales simply do better things with the players they choose. Fitness and conditioning is given more gravity (you just have to look at the differences in body contour) and they provide the right systems to exploit the skill of the Welsh players. Welsh players thrive on heads-up attacking rugby and Gatland provides the clinical groundwork to let that happen.

Talking about finding the elusive better players in Ireland isn't going to distract us from the fact that the players already exist and that Coaching Ireland is letting them down.

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I dont think there is a hope in hell that Archer will be good enough.

I agree with you that right now he isnt. Hagan and Andress are cleraly our next ports of call.

Never is a strong word to use about such a young prop who will by necessity end up getting a lot of top end game time for Munster.

Are you sure about Andress? Quins didn't seem too unhappy about losing him, unlike they were about Mike Ross.

Surely Conor O'Shea would have tipped them off if he was worth a look.

Edit: For the record, Andress has played 257 mins of rugby this season (6 games) and 322 mins last season. Jamie Hagan has played about 3 times that and we think he isn't getting enough game time.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Oh good, the central contracts debate. Nice change

eh. Geoff seems to think that Leamy is discarded. He isn't.

Indeed. But have we perhaps been over this before? Can you recall?

I mean, feic sake Sin, surely you must even get bored of this?

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Oh good, the central contracts debate. Nice change

eh. Geoff seems to think that Leamy is discarded. He isn't.

Indeed. But have we perhaps been over this before? Can you recall?

I mean, feic sake Sin, surely you must even get bored of this?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The only point I'm making is that Leamy has got a 2 year contract and isn't finished.

I'd like to know how Geoff comes to the conclusion that Henry & Jennings are ahead of him since just a few months ago he was ahead of them at the world cup.

dublin_dave wrote:

There is some loser talk spouted on here by DOD etc. oh we just do not have the players to compete against the almighty powers of England, Wales, France etc. Its embarrasing. If Munster had that attitude they would be livid. Thankfully they dont

I think maybe DOD and I are fairly qualified to know what a retreating scrum can do, after all Munster failed to reach the knockouts of the Heineken Cup in about 14 years because we didn't have a scrummaging Tighthead.

No doubt most people think that Paul O'Connell is Munster's most important player. While he maybe important, BJ is the man and our season will end if anything happens to him.

Leamy may have a role to play for Munster but i cannot see him featuring at international level unless he has a major indian summer. The same with Shane Jennings

Nothing to do with his age but mainly down to the fact that we have better options, O Mahony, Chris Henry, Mc Loughlin in the main. Ruddock, Dom Ryan should also make a proper break through in the coming years at Leinster.

Unfortunately i cannot see David Wallace playing in the green jersey again and i dont think it makes sense for to select a 35 year old in year 1 of a 4 year world cup cycle. Surely he has only 1 year left in him if he does make it back.

Ross or the lack of him wasn't the talk during the WC, during the warm-up games for that WC or during the bulk of this tournament.

Tighthead wasn't the issue. Many more issues were though - maybe we were all so busy with the numerous Ireland issues that we plum forgot to bring up the tighthead one. Whatever the reason, tighthead is certainly not the only thing holding back Ireland or the only thing impeding future success.

dublin_dave wrote:Leamy may have a role to play for Munster but i cannot see him featuring at international level unless he has a major indian summer. The same with Shane Jennings

Nothing to do with his age but mainly down to the fact that we have better options, O Mahony, Chris Henry, Mc Loughlin in the main. Ruddock, Dom Ryan should also make a proper break through in the coming years at Leinster.

Unfortunately i cannot see David Wallace playing in the green jersey again and i dont think it makes sense for to select a 35 year old in year 1 of a 4 year world cup cycle. Surely he has only 1 year left in him if he does make it back.

Leamy had been playing with a hip injury for the last 6 months. You seem to forget that most of Leamy international caps were at No. 8 which none of the above mentioned play. Unless Heislip is dropped, Ruddock isn't going to get much of a look in for Leinster there.

As for David Wallace, lets see how he gets on after his long injury layoff. If he is playing as well as he was last season, I don't see why he should be dropped. Its not as if we have loads of players to play openside and with 3 tests in New Zealand he will be needed.

the scrum was a key factor in saturdays defeat without a shadow of a doubt. Ross going off was a hammer blow. Having said that i think 4 games in 4 weeks was also a major factor for DOC, Best and Healy. Maybe they just didnt have enough in the tank to dig in and stem the flow. Healy was smashed by Cole all game long let us not forget. He has broken even with Cole before but he was done good and proper on Saturday. Not many teams could have exploited us as ruthlessly as that

Our scrum has been a strength of ours over the last 2 years. Unfortunately winning matches and coherent attacking play has not. The reaction in some quarters would lead you to believe that scrummaging is the big issue fix it and the sky is the limit. I hope as well as interviewing for a scrum coach the IRFU are publically making a big thing about hiring a backs/attack coach. I would say an attack/backs coach is arguably more important

number 8 is a problem alright sin. dont think sob is ideal there or leamy for that matter. but something has to be done to kick heaslip up the backside.

an arm around the shoulder "listen jamie you tweet and act like you are one of the best number 8s in the world. Do me a favour and disappear and come back to me when you start playing like one" Outplayed by Morgan,Parisse,Harinorduquy and Faletau alone this tournament. Simply not good enough.

I think Ruddock is a blind side flanker and not more else. Does not strike me as a modern number 8.

SecretFly wrote:Ross or the lack of him wasn't the talk during the WC, during the warm-up games for that WC or during the bulk of this tournament.

Tighthead wasn't the issue. Many more issues were though - maybe we were all so busy with the numerous Ireland issues that we plum forgot to bring up the tighthead one. Whatever the reason, tighthead is certainly not the only thing holding back Ireland or the only thing impeding future success.

TH wasn't the issue because obviously, Ross didn't get injured. It would have been an issue if he had. There were a fair few carrying injuries for the world cup warmup games, and indeed what a loss David Wallace was could have been the topic of conversation along with Sexton's poor kicking.

The issues Ireland have are:

1. Tighthead (not just that there is no TH backup, but 22 man squads).
2. Openside
3. Inside centre

and most importantly, Leadership. Without BOD or Paul O'Connell, Ireland are nothing. Rory Best did his best as did Kearney and Ferris by example, but the rest of them were gutless and were no support.

The issues Ireland have are:

1. Head Coach
2. Tighthead (not just that there is no TH backup, but 22 man squads).
3. Inside centre

Heaslip doesn't ever talk about rugby on twitter so I'm not sure how people Re getting the impression that he thinks he's the best number 8 in the world.

Sin é wrote:Ross or the lack of him wasn't the talk during the WC, during the warm-up games for that WC or during the bulk of this tournament.
and most importantly, Leadership. Without BOD or Paul O'Connell, Ireland are nothing. Rory Best did his best as did Kearney and Ferris by example, but the rest of them were gutless and were no support.

Leadership starts at the top,maybe Kidney could start to show some as for the last 2 years he has been gutless.

Sin é wrote:
TH wasn't the issue because obviously, Ross didn't get injured.

Exactly. Plaster coaching. Something goes wrong, let's stick a plaster on it. Something went wrong this time and coaches found out there is no plaster.

Team gets picked because the usuals stay fit or go off injured. Nobody thought about Ross in the coaching set-up because they didn't want to have to think about it - therefore players weren't aware of how to deal with the issue when it showed up. The machine stopped because of one man. Bad planning - especially considering it involved a player everyone knew was about the most irreplaceable player in the team.

It wasn't an issue because Ross didn't get injured. Someone should print that in red ink and post it on the Irish dressing room - it kind of incapsulates much that is wrong with our system.

asoreleftshoulder,
i know it's a typo but could you fix that quote for me in your last post.. You kinda get crucified for the words you use on this site so I don't want people saying I said that lot in months to come!

Done,sorry should have previewed before posting