Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

Mickado wrote:Heaslip doesn't ever talk about rugby on twitter so I'm not sure how people Re getting the impression that he thinks he's the best number 8 in the world.

Didn't he claim he was really peed off because he didn't make the '07 world cup. (sounding arrogant as if it was a right rather than the way Tommy Bowe took it as one of the best things to happen to him because it gave him the kick up he needed).

Problem with Heislip is that he has never had to compete with anyone for his spot. He can't be benched really because he only plays No. 8 and that would cause too much disruption if he had to come on for a backrower.

im not on twitter so fair enough mick.

i know a few people lets say close to the squad who confirmed he is an extremely laid back confident individual who at times needs a boot up the arse. he has not gotten one in a while. a back row of the ferris, o mahony, o brien with henry/jennings on the bench may have the desired effect.

he is so far away from the all dominating galloping heaslip who was imperious v clermont a few years back, both in blue and green. At the breakdown and in defence he is effective but he is making next to no yards with ball in hand.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
TH wasn't the issue because obviously, Ross didn't get injured.

Exactly. Plaster coaching. Something goes wrong, let's stick a plaster on it. Something went wrong this time and coaches found out there is no plaster.

Team gets picked because the usuals stay fit or go off injured. Nobody thought about Ross in the coaching set-up because they didn't want to have to think about it - therefore players weren't aware of how to deal with the issue when it showed up. The machine stopped because of one man. Bad planning - especially considering it involved a player everyone knew was about the most irreplaceable player in the team.

It wasn't an issue because Ross didn't get injured. Someone should print that in red ink and post it on the Irish dressing room - it kind of incapsulates much that is wrong with our system.

World Cup - Buckley was in the squad, and Hayes was being kept fit with Munster - so at least there was some thought put into it. with Buckley not getting as much gametime as he used to as he is out of the IRFU control, he isn't an option now. Even if Jamie Hagan was as good a prop as Mike Ross, there would have been a problem on saturday because Hagan doesn't play loosehead and he wouldn't have been on the bench.

The 23 man club squads, and the 22 man international squads is an issue (you can blame Cheika for that one - amazing Healy didn't go down injured ). In the club game in the SH, they still have 22 man squads so at least you don't get the same specialisation on either side as you do up here. If one of England's props had gone done, I'm sure they would have had a retreating scrum just like Ireland.

dublin_dave wrote:im not on twitter so fair enough mick.

i know a few people lets say close to the squad who confirmed he is an extremely laid back confident individual who at times needs a boot up the arse. he has not gotten one in a while. a back row of the ferris, o mahony, o brien with henry/jennings on the bench may have the desired effect.

he is so far away from the all dominating galloping heaslip who was imperious v clermont a few years back, both in blue and green. At the breakdown and in defence he is effective but he is making next to no yards with ball in hand.

Actually that was around the time Kidney dropped him for Leamy for a game in the 6Ns (Grand slam)! He needs Leamy breathing down his neck.

Lol yeah the 50 minutes Heaslip didn't play against Scotland are what made him so good,your nothing if not creative Sin.

i think that was more due to rotation to be honest. was scotland game he came on and got a try. he was terrific v france at home in grand slam year also. until the last 2 years he was one of the top number 8s in the world. he has slipped way down the pecking order now for reasons unknown.

clermont was hc quarter 2 years ago. he was unplayable that day. he pretty much won us the game single handedly. Him and Malzieu produced two of the finest individual displays i have seen in a long time in that game. Thank god for Brock James

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol yeah the 50 minutes Heaslip didn't play against Scotland are what made him so good,your nothing if not creative Sin.

The guy is completely up his own ass. In an interview just before the world cup in an Irish newspaper he said the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (BOD & POC - both captains of the Lions said the highlight of their careers was getting capped for Ireland & Grand Slam), so I've no doubt that having to bench is something he doesn't likes.

Sin é wrote:

The guy is completely up his own ass. In an interview just before the world cup in an Irish newspaper he said the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (BOD & POC - both captains of the Lions said the highlight of their careers was getting capped for Ireland & Grand Slam), so I've no doubt that having to bench is something he doesn't likes.

I'm not saying Heaslip is playing well or that he shouldn't be dropped.I'm saying is that your claim that Leamy getting to start that game against Scotland was somehow resposible for his previous good form is ridiculous.

I despair. Leamy will be back breathing down the neck of Heaslip and we'll all be happy that Ireland is making real progress in unearthing young talent for the future?

Nonsense, Fly! Don't be talking bull, Fly! You know we can't look forward now, not yet, not now; not with the team being so despondent and needing to get going again against the All Blacks. That will need players of experience, players who know how to operate at international level, players who have proven themselves, players who need to redeem themselves, players who...

Yeah, there's always the next reason to keep going back to the past - TOL being another one v England. Stability first, risk later..... and still miraculously going down faster than the Angel Falls.

Now having said all that, I agree with Sin é. Heaslip's character - I find it difficult to warm to. I actually don't know what he wants from the game anymore. I think he's not quite so sure himself these days. Not a great place to be in at such a needy time in Ireland.

I like Heaslip I have to say (and I'm mostly of Ulster origin but with a touch of Leinster) - watched him in the "A"s too where he was definitely stand-out.

It's sad he hasn't kicked on - I really thought a move to France would have been good for him and given him the impetus he needed.

I suspect there is some tension in Ireland (as you sometimes see in England) between the methods of the national coaches and the methods of the club coaches which shows in the performances of some of the players


and wrt Leamy as I have said many times before - I don't know what he's got on Kidney but whatever it is it must be big

Croyman wrote:I like Heaslip I have to say (and I'm mostly of Ulster origin but with a touch of Leinster) - watched him in the "A"s too where he was definitely stand-out.

It's sad he hasn't kicked on - I really thought a move to France would have been good for him and given him the impetus he needed.

I suspect there is some tension in Ireland (as you sometimes see in England) between the methods of the national coaches and the methods of the club coaches which shows in the performances of some of the players


and wrt Leamy as I have said many times before - I don't know what he's got on Kidney but whatever it is it must be big

the highlighted bit probably explains why you don't rate Leamy. Ulster & Leinster fans don't rate Munster players in general.

Versatility is a bonus for any international coach.

btw, as an Ulsterfan in England - do you know anything about Sean Dougal, an openside (former Ulster academy) now playing for Rotherham and on his way to Munster next season?

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Oh good, the central contracts debate. Nice change

eh. Geoff seems to think that Leamy is discarded. He isn't.

No I said he was droping down the pecking order not that he was discarded. POM is above him now.
I accept that including Jennings is a bit of a stretch but I do believe Henry is more likely to play than Leamy.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I dont think there is a hope in hell that Archer will be good enough.

I agree with you that right now he isnt. Hagan and Andress are cleraly our next ports of call.

Never is a strong word to use about such a young prop who will by necessity end up getting a lot of top end game time for Munster.

Are you sure about Andress? Quins didn't seem too unhappy about losing him, unlike they were about Mike Ross.

Surely Conor O'Shea would have tipped them off if he was worth a look.

Edit: For the record, Andress has played 257 mins of rugby this season (6 games) and 322 mins last season. Jamie Hagan has played about 3 times that and we think he isn't getting enough game time.

No I am not sure about Andress but the fact is the Irish TH cupboard is very very bare and he alongside Hagan is the best we have if Ross gets injured - that is a bad place to be.

As I mentioned before Sean Dougal seemed a decent prospect who was out of the game for 2 years with an injury just before he was going to make a breakthrough.

Never saw him play though.

Wtf does courts inability to play TH, Leamy been needed to pressurise Heaslip (total bs btw) or anything else have to do with Kidney having a less than 50% win ratio over the last two years??

That should be the be all and end all of this conversation. The man needs to go!

On Leamy - actually he did OK in the WC but he did seem to get preferential treatment - and I'm guessing that if he had been fit POM wouldn't have got his chance ....... now he has ... well I am guessing Leamy might still be on the summer tour


The one observation from here is that article in the DT about the IRFU appointing an English scout - is that true ?? nothing in the Irish papers about it that I could see.

The reason I thought someone might wake up is that Corbisiero who might have had some hand in seeing Ross off the pitch chose England ahead of Ireland - with attendant results - and with current policies what Irish qualified player in England is going to chose Ireland.

As for Kidney and few scenario

v Italy in 2011 - not good set up of the team
v England in 2011 - comprehensively ahead of the English coaching
v Wales in the WC - comprehensively out-gunned by Welsh coaches
v France in 2012 - possibly ahead of the French coach
v Wales in 2012 - quite close but had no answer in defence to Welsh titanic backs
v England in 2012 - comprehensively out-gunned on one key issue - though seemed to have greatly improved backs defence

Currently - in the 6N I would say he is about 3rd to 3rd = best coach - meaning can see off the minnows but generally loses out to the bigger fish that now includes Wales and England -

As his record in the last year shows:

Against the teams above us in the rankings W1 D1 L6
Against the teams below us in the rankings W5 D0 L1

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Oh good, the central contracts debate. Nice change

eh. Geoff seems to think that Leamy is discarded. He isn't.

No I said he was droping down the pecking order not that he was discarded. POM is above him now.
I accept that including Jennings is a bit of a stretch but I do believe Henry is more likely to play than Leamy.

Henry will find it difficult to start ahead of Ferris/SOB/POM/Heislip. How good an option is he from the bench?

Dom Ryan. Mclaughlin. Rhys Ruddock.

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geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I dont think there is a hope in hell that Archer will be good enough.

I agree with you that right now he isnt. Hagan and Andress are cleraly our next ports of call.

Never is a strong word to use about such a young prop who will by necessity end up getting a lot of top end game time for Munster.

Are you sure about Andress? Quins didn't seem too unhappy about losing him, unlike they were about Mike Ross.

Surely Conor O'Shea would have tipped them off if he was worth a look.

Edit: For the record, Andress has played 257 mins of rugby this season (6 games) and 322 mins last season. Jamie Hagan has played about 3 times that and we think he isn't getting enough game time.

No I am not sure about Andress but the fact is the Irish TH cupboard is very very bare and he alongside Hagan is the best we have if Ross gets injured - that is a bad place to be.

Interesting that he decided to stay in England when Ulster signed Afoa.

Andress is out of contract at the end of the season and despite interest from the provinces, he's decided to move to Worcester Warriors. His agent was in talks with Munster last season, but a deal to return to Ulster appeared to have been sealed until they managed to convince John Afoa to swap Auckland for Ravenhill.

“I don’t really want to go back home to sit on the bench behind someone I’m potentially better than,” explains Andress. “Munster have brought in BJ Botha this season and Ulster have got John Afoa, so I’d imagine there won’t be many opportunities there.”
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/2-sport-news/182-school-of-hard-props

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Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol yeah the 50 minutes Heaslip didn't play against Scotland are what made him so good,your nothing if not creative Sin.

The guy is completely up his own ass. In an interview just before the world cup in an Irish newspaper he said the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (BOD & POC - both captains of the Lions said the highlight of their careers was getting capped for Ireland & Grand Slam), so I've no doubt that having to bench is something he doesn't likes.

He's up his own ass because the highlight of his career was being selected by the Lions?

Golden wrote:Wtf does courts inability to play TH, Leamy been needed to pressurise Heaslip (total bs btw) or anything else have to do with Kidney having a less than 50% win ratio over the last two years??

That should be the be all and end all of this conversation. The man needs to go!

I think Heaslip likes the idea of being an international rugby player...he just doesnt like the hard bit involved...i.e playing.

So what is the general consensus? Do Ireland need a new coach or do Ireland simply need a good backs coach?

eirebilly wrote:So what is the general consensus? Do Ireland need a new coach or do Ireland simply need a good backs coach?

Both imo.

I dont think Sin ever quite got over de Famine. Lions selection is the ultimate accolade for any Home Nations player.

The Best... of the Best.

As for Heaslip, i have no idea what has happened to him. He had a horrible 6N and needs a swift kick up the arse.

eirebilly wrote:As for Heaslip, i have no idea what has happened to him. He had a horrible 6N and needs a swift kick up the arse.

He won't get it from Kidney and when he goes back to Leinster he'll magically start performing again.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol yeah the 50 minutes Heaslip didn't play against Scotland are what made him so good,your nothing if not creative Sin.

The guy is completely up his own ass. In an interview just before the world cup in an Irish newspaper he said the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (BOD & POC - both captains of the Lions said the highlight of their careers was getting capped for Ireland & Grand Slam), so I've no doubt that having to bench is something he doesn't likes.

He's up his own ass because the highlight of his career was being selected by the Lions?

Maybe he should play for the lions permanently...I would be happy to see him do that!!! highest accolade and all that...

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

eirebilly wrote:As for Heaslip, i have no idea what has happened to him. He had a horrible 6N and needs a swift kick up the arse.

He won't get it from Kidney and when he goes back to Leinster he'll magically start performing again.

He is very good against lesser opposition...pity he (and a lot others) cant do it against the big boys.

Croyman wrote:On Leamy - actually he did OK in the WC but he did seem to get preferential treatment - and I'm guessing that if he had been fit POM wouldn't have got his chance ....... now he has ... well I am guessing Leamy might still be on the summer tour

You'd be guessing wrong. POM was starting Blindside for the Heineken Cup campaign and Leamy was on the bench generally playing about 20 mins. When Ronan got injured Leamy started at Blindside & POM at Openside against the Scarlets. He lasted about 50 mins and we haven't seen him since. He is due to be out for 6 months with his hip operation, so probably won't be up to the NZ tour.

I think that POM could have spent another few months beefing up a bit as he is a bit on the light side. Hope this doesn't come back to haunt him in the future.

The one observation from here is that article in the DT about the IRFU appointing an English scout - is that true ?? nothing in the Irish papers about it that I could see.

The reason I thought someone might wake up is that Corbisiero who might have had some hand in seeing Ross off the pitch chose England ahead of Ireland - with attendant results - and with current policies what Irish qualified player in England is going to chose Ireland.

There are always plenty of Exiles involved in Ireland. Some go onto play for England. For instance, Kieran Brookes playing for England is a far more attractive prospect than Kieran Brookes playing for Ireland (Leicester get compensated for him from the RFU). And while these lads might be happy to play for Ireland, they just might prefer to play their weekly rugby and live in the country they grew up in, though Munster have two young Exiles in their academy.

eirebilly wrote:So what is the general consensus? Do Ireland need a new coach or do Ireland simply need a good backs coach?

We badly need a shake up at the IRFU itself as well. That's the REAL problem here. They live in Dreamland and they failed to support Kidney properly. Left him bare - in his defence. Maybe it's a cunning plot.

I was also crying tears of blood when watching TOL and to be fair, Stringer probably would have been a better option

It was almost as if there was zero motivatin in playing England at Twickers which was really shocking.

I have given up on Deccies pre-match talks, i used to find them funny now its just plain depressing.

DOD wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

eirebilly wrote:As for Heaslip, i have no idea what has happened to him. He had a horrible 6N and needs a swift kick up the arse.

He won't get it from Kidney and when he goes back to Leinster he'll magically start performing again.

He is very good against lesser opposition...pity he (and a lot others) cant do it against the big boys.

HC Man of the match against Toulouse last year. Twice HC cup winner and try scorer in the final. The Lions most consistant forward in 3 tests. Anything else?

Gibson wrote:

eirebilly wrote:So what is the general consensus? Do Ireland need a new coach or do Ireland simply need a good backs coach?

We badly need a shake up at the IRFU itself as well. That's the REAL problem here. They live in Dreamland and they failed to support Kidney properly. Left him bare - in his defence. Maybe it's a cunning plot.

But what if, Gibbo, John Kirwan signs as attacking coach. Would you then accept Deccie to continue as head coach?

DOD wrote:

He is very good against lesser opposition...pity he (and a lot others) cant do it against the big boys.

Very similar to Kidney

DOD wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

eirebilly wrote:As for Heaslip, i have no idea what has happened to him. He had a horrible 6N and needs a swift kick up the arse.

He won't get it from Kidney and when he goes back to Leinster he'll magically start performing again.

He is very good against lesser opposition...pity he (and a lot others) cant do it against the big boys.

No, he is very good against good opposition as well, he has shown that in the past but this 6N he simply wasnt at the races.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Lol yeah the 50 minutes Heaslip didn't play against Scotland are what made him so good,your nothing if not creative Sin.

The guy is completely up his own ass. In an interview just before the world cup in an Irish newspaper he said the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (BOD & POC - both captains of the Lions said the highlight of their careers was getting capped for Ireland & Grand Slam), so I've no doubt that having to bench is something he doesn't likes.

He's up his own ass because the highlight of his career was being selected by the Lions?

Yep, what a plonker. He rated being selected for a losing team to be better than winning 2 Heineken Cups with Leinster and a Grand Slam with Ireland.

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

eirebilly wrote:As for Heaslip, i have no idea what has happened to him. He had a horrible 6N and needs a swift kick up the arse.

He won't get it from Kidney and when he goes back to Leinster he'll magically start performing again.

He is very good against lesser opposition...pity he (and a lot others) cant do it against the big boys.

HC Man of the match against Toulouse last year. Twice HC cup winner and try scorer in the final. The Lions most consistant forward in 3 tests. Anything else?

A player living off past glories....now where have I seen or heard that lately

DOD wrote:

A player living off past glories....now where have I seen or heard that lately

Dunno maybe he's taking his lead from Kidney

They are pretty recent glories DOD. He is a very good player but there is an underlying problem if he cant find the motivation to play for Ireland.

eirebilly wrote:

Gibson wrote:

eirebilly wrote:So what is the general consensus? Do Ireland need a new coach or do Ireland simply need a good backs coach?

We badly need a shake up at the IRFU itself as well. That's the REAL problem here. They live in Dreamland and they failed to support Kidney properly. Left him bare - in his defence. Maybe it's a cunning plot.

But what if, Gibbo, John Kirwan signs as attacking coach. Would you then accept Deccie to continue as head coach?

NO Billy. He needs to go. Need a firm new hand on the tiller. One who knows where the feic to take the boat. Deccies been going against the stream for 3/4 years. Need someone to turn it round.

Gibson wrote:I dont think Sin ever quite got over de Famine. Lions selection is the ultimate accolade for any Home Nations player.

The Best... of the Best.

BOD & POC didn't rate it to be better than their first caps and winning the grand slam. Have those two not got over the famine either?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:

A player living off past glories....now where have I seen or heard that lately

Dunno maybe he's taking his lead from Kidney

Maybe he has been unable to get over the humiliation of his red card in NZ when he failed miserably as a leader in POC's absence.

But who is going to replace him Gibbo?

Who will understand Irish provincial rugby well enough to get these players gelling at international level. Wayne Smith sounds like an option and could be very good but i think that he has his eyes on bigger things.

Sin é wrote:

Maybe he has been unable to get over the humiliation of his red card in NZ ?

Yeah that must be it well done Sin.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:

A player living off past glories....now where have I seen or heard that lately

Dunno maybe he's taking his lead from Kidney

Well its clear that some of the players are incapable of making decisions themselves or lack self motivation (as well as ability). So big bad Deccie is clearly telling Heaslip that he should play badly. Its almost as bad as the argument that ROG should have been dropped from the bench as he was making Sexton play badly....Sexton didnt play badly but he was his usual ineffectual self.

I think they do SIN. They have to say that to feed the zenophobic Irish dispora.

"Oohh pleeease love us. We're great cos we're Irish!" Makes me puke tbh. Need to get out of that inward-looking attitude, if we are to move on up. At everything.

Leading the Lions, beats the shoite out of a SLAM for any individual player. Everyone knows that.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Maybe he has been unable to get over the humiliation of his red card in NZ ?

Yeah that must be it well done Sin.

He has had no challenges in his career to date (like serious injuries etc). In about 140 starts for Leinster, he has benched something like 5 times (and most of those were about 7 years ago in his early career). He benched once last year I think when coming back from his injury. He has had no competition for his place at Leinster. He has had little or no competition for his spot with Ireland.

Take Rob Kearney, he has had to deal with a serious injury and he has come back even better from it, unlike say Luke who has had a difficult time coming back from his injury.