Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

DOD wrote:
Well its clear that some of the players are incapable of making decisions themselves or lack self motivation (as well as ability). So big bad Deccie is clearly telling Heaslip that he should play badly. Its almost as bad as the argument that ROG should have been dropped from the bench as he was making Sexton play badly....Sexton didnt play badly but he was his usual ineffectual self.

It's also clear Kidney is incapable of making decisions himself or motivating the team (apparently that's his strength).I never claimed Deccie was telling Heaslip to play badly that's a pretty moronic thing to say,my argument is that Deccie has developed a team that has no gameplan or direction and he has also fostered a consequence free enviroment where if you're one of the chosen ones no matter how badly you play you'll always get one more chance.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Maybe he has been unable to get over the humiliation of his red card in NZ ?

Yeah that must be it well done Sin.

He has had no challenges in his career to date (like serious injuries etc). In about 140 starts for Leinster, he has benched something like 5 times (and most of those were about 7 years ago in his early career). He benched once last year I think when coming back from his injury. He has had no competition for his place at Leinster. He has had little or no competition for his spot with Ireland.

Take Rob Kearney, he has had to deal with a serious injury and he has come back even better from it, unlike say Luke who has had a difficult time coming back from his injury.

Really? I thought that POM was giving him some competition indirectly?
Ferris 6, POM 7 and SOB 8. Thats competition for Heaslip right there. Its just a shame that Deccie didnt see that.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Maybe he has been unable to get over the humiliation of his red card in NZ ?

Yeah that must be it well done Sin.

He has had no challenges in his career to date (like serious injuries etc). In about 140 starts for Leinster, he has benched something like 5 times (and most of those were about 7 years ago in his early career). He benched once last year I think when coming back from his injury. He has had no competition for his place at Leinster. He has had little or no competition for his spot with Ireland.

Take Rob Kearney, he has had to deal with a serious injury and he has come back even better from it, unlike say Luke who has had a difficult time coming back from his injury.

Absolutely agree with you,yet in a major shock Declan Kidney sticks with an underperforming player.Why is that?

Gibson wrote:I think they do SIN. They have to say that to feed the zenophobic Irish dispora.

"Oohh pleeease love us. We're great cos we're Irish!" Makes me puke tbh. Need to get out of that inward-looking attitude, if we are to move on up. At everything.

Leading the Lions, beats the shoite out of a SLAM for any individual player. Everyone knows that.

Pity they dont think that playing well for Ireland winning a world cup or beating the ABs should be the pinnacle rather than some outdated nostalgia that is far removed from the real world of rugby....usually the French tour when the Lions are touring are more enjoyable...at least the French tend to win (and as one team)

eirebilly wrote:But who is going to replace him Gibbo?

Who will understand Irish provincial rugby well enough to get these players gelling at international level. Wayne Smith sounds like an option and could be very good but i think that he has his eyes on bigger things.

We need someone who does NOT know the provinces. Someone, who will look at all the players available to him with a cold-hearted eye. That's the point.

Id go for Dean Richards. Irwin as backs coach. Jonno Gibbes as forwards coach? Kurt McQuilkan as defence coach? Just putting it out there. Like Wayne Smith too. If Schmidt was interested... man.

DOD and SIN just want to keep petty-bitching about Ulster & Leinster players. It's actually quite funny to read and a big part of what is wrong with Irish rugby.

Parish first. Then province. Country 3rd. No national vision.

Gibson wrote:I think they do SIN. They have to say that to feed the zenophobic Irish dispora.

"Oohh pleeease love us. We're great cos we're Irish!" Makes me puke tbh. Need to get out of that inward-looking attitude, if we are to move on up. At everything.

Leading the Lions, beats the shoite out of a SLAM for any individual player. Everyone knows that.

eh, it was in the Sunday Independent - main audience are in Ireland for that. Nothing to do with the dispora.

Maybe they were aiming it at their team mates in the Irish team.

BOD often said that it was very important to him to play with and win things with his best friends and it was a disappointment to him that Denis Hickie missed out on the HCup win.

Being selected for Ireland and winning something with them should really be the pinnacle of players careers. The Lions is good but representing your country and winning, say a slam, should be the pinnacle i feel.

I think Nick Mallett is going to be free, if you guys have the money get John Kirwan on board to. Personally I would go for Michael Chekai (apologies for spelling) - I think the guy knows Irish rugby inside out and maybe Ruddock for the forwards. Be bold - Connor OShea is also a wily tactician - Get the dream team in now and plan for the next 5 years

Chekai
Ruddock
Kirwan

Gibson wrote:

eirebilly wrote:But who is going to replace him Gibbo?

Who will understand Irish provincial rugby well enough to get these players gelling at international level. Wayne Smith sounds like an option and could be very good but i think that he has his eyes on bigger things.

We need someone who does NOT know the provinces. Someone, who will look at all the players available to him with a cold-hearted eye. That's the point.

Id go for Dean Richards. Irwin as backs coach. Jonno Gibbes as backs coach? Kurt McQuilkan as defence coach? Just putting it out there. Like Wayne Smith too. If Schmidt was interested... man.

DOD and SIN just want to keep petty-bitching about Ulster & Leinster players. It's actually quite funny to read and a big part of what is wrong with Irish rugby.

Parish first. Then province. Country 3rd. No national vision.

I was more refeering to the fact that all the provinces play a different style of rugby so some understanding of the provincial rugby would be pretty good in getting these players to gel and play one style.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Maybe he has been unable to get over the humiliation of his red card in NZ ?

Yeah that must be it well done Sin.

He has had no challenges in his career to date (like serious injuries etc). In about 140 starts for Leinster, he has benched something like 5 times (and most of those were about 7 years ago in his early career). He benched once last year I think when coming back from his injury. He has had no competition for his place at Leinster. He has had little or no competition for his spot with Ireland.

Take Rob Kearney, he has had to deal with a serious injury and he has come back even better from it, unlike say Luke who has had a difficult time coming back from his injury.

Absolutely agree with you,yet in a major shock Declan Kidney sticks with an underperforming player.Why is that?

Denis Leamy, the only other international standard No. 8 along with David Wallace are injured ?

If you're going to say SOB - during the tournament he spent a week in hospital with a debilitating illness so maybe it wasn't the time to drop Heislip.

eirebilly wrote:But who is going to replace him Gibbo?

Who will understand Irish provincial rugby well enough to get these players gelling at international level. Wayne Smith sounds like an option and could be very good but i think that he has his eyes on bigger things.

I think a coach who understands the Provinces is the last thing we need right now. We need a coach who will bring an instinctive awareness with him about the game he wants to play - do his research on the players avaliable in Ireland and choose his side based on what players will best bring his playing structure to life.

If quite a number of those players are from Connacht - then I'd go along for the ride and see how it turns out. Indeed, perhaps we should be promoting the idea that Ireland is almost just another Province; and if our A graders find it easier to play with passion for Province then let's do a Gatland and choose lesser players - they will have the hunger, they will be open to suggestions, they will have the disciplin to follow the blueprint because that will be their vehicle to promote their abilities. Maybe we should leave the A-graders with their Provinces until they begin to beg to be part of the Irish set-up. Counter-intuitive perhaps, suicide perhaps; but like I said before, 8th is not exactly a position you have to play safe with.

eirebilly wrote:Being selected for Ireland and winning something with them should really be the pinnacle of players careers. The Lions is good but representing your country and winning, say a slam, should be the pinnacle i feel.

Eirebilly, I salute you!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:
Well its clear that some of the players are incapable of making decisions themselves or lack self motivation (as well as ability). So big bad Deccie is clearly telling Heaslip that he should play badly. Its almost as bad as the argument that ROG should have been dropped from the bench as he was making Sexton play badly....Sexton didnt play badly but he was his usual ineffectual self.

It's also clear Kidney is incapable of making decisions himself or motivating the team (apparently that's his strength).I never claimed Deccie was telling Heaslip to play badly that's a pretty moronic thing to say,my argument is that Deccie has developed a team that has no gameplan or direction and he has also fostered a consequence free enviroment where if you're one of the chosen ones no matter how badly you play you'll always get one more chance.

Your argument is based on some opinion you have without any credibility and which are usually incorrect (I wouldnt say moronic...but simple). So you think the Irish rugby team have no gameplan... It might not be a very good gameplan but to say there is no gameplan.....I feel embarrassed for you (not!). And the free environment...where did you get that one from.....who got the one more chance....Darcy (no one to replace him)...who else, Heaslip, Redden, Sexton, SOB...please dont try to explain your stupid arguments....call a spade a spade and dont be making shoite up as you go along.

Personally i feel that Kidney's major fault was not understanding the contrasting styles the provinces play. It really looked as if he was trying to force a 'gameplan' onto the players which really contradicted their natural instincts.

Wally and Leamy must be kept miles away from the squad, from here on in. Not because they are from Munster. Rather because (like Darcy & DOC) Leamy is well past his sell-by date as an international force. And Wally is near 90. We have enough young backowers in situ. Dont need em.

Ah of course it's heaslips fault for been honoured at been selected for the lions why we've been Poopie for 3 years.

Why didn't you say that on page one and save us all a lot of time?

Sin é wrote:

Denis Leamy, the only other international standard No. 8 along with David Wallace are injured ?

If you're going to say SOB - during the tournament he spent a week in hospital with a debilitating illness so maybe it wasn't the time to drop Heislip.

Leamy isn't an international standard 8 anymore he was and still is a fine 6,he was only okay at 8 when he was at his best imo.

Yeah you caught me I was going to suggest SoB but you've found a convenient exscuse for Kidney again,let me ask you then will you criticise Kidney if he doens't drop Heaslip for the tour to NZ or is that too important,how about the autumn internationals?When would be a good time or will you just keep excusing him as he makes non decisions time after time.

Gibson wrote:Wally and Leamy must be kept miles away from the squad, from here on in. Not because they are from Munster. Rather because (like Darcy & DOC) Leamy is well past his sell-by date as an international force. And Wally is near 90. We have enough young backowers in situ. Dont need em.

Does BOD fall under this rule as well?

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Being selected for Ireland and winning something with them should really be the pinnacle of players careers. The Lions is good but representing your country and winning, say a slam, should be the pinnacle i feel.

Eirebilly, I salute you!

+1, for the life of me I can never figure out how some of our players came out with the twaddle last time around that being picked for the Lions is somehow the pinnacle of their careers. The pinnacle for any Irish rugby player is the green jersey, after that their provincial shirt and after that the shirt of a makey-uppy team like the Lions

DOD wrote:
Your argument is based on some opinion you have without any credibility and which are usually incorrect (I wouldnt say moronic...but simple). So you think the Irish rugby team have no gameplan... It might not be a very good gameplan but to say there is no gameplan.....I feel embarrassed for you (not!). And the free environment...where did you get that one from.....who got the one more chance....Darcy (no one to replace him)...who else, Heaslip, Redden, Sexton, SOB...please dont try to explain your stupid arguments....call a spade a spade and dont be making shoite up as you go along.

Pot,kettle and a very dark colour.

That entire post is a comment on your contribution to this thread.

Golden wrote:Ah of course it's heaslips fault for been honoured at been selected for the lions why we've been Poopie for 3 years.

Why didn't you say that on page one and save us all a lot of time?

Heaslip isn't a team player, thats whats wrong with him. He is too far up his own ass (which is what I said in the beginning and have had to explain it to everyone).

Sin é wrote:
Heaslip isn't a team player, thats whats wrong with him. He is too far up his own ass (which is what I said in the beginning and have had to explain it to everyone).

In your opinion.

Sin é wrote:

Golden wrote:Ah of course it's heaslips fault for been honoured at been selected for the lions why we've been Poopie for 3 years.

Why didn't you say that on page one and save us all a lot of time?

Heaslip isn't a team player, thats whats wrong with him. He is too far up his own ass (which is what I said in the beginning and have had to explain it to everyone).

Now thats a

Sin é wrote:

Golden wrote:Ah of course it's heaslips fault for been honoured at been selected for the lions why we've been Poopie for 3 years.

Why didn't you say that on page one and save us all a lot of time?

Heaslip isn't a team player, thats whats wrong with him. He is too far up his own ass (which is what I said in the beginning and have had to explain it to everyone).

Then why has kidney picked him consistently for 3/4 years?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Denis Leamy, the only other international standard No. 8 along with David Wallace are injured ?

If you're going to say SOB - during the tournament he spent a week in hospital with a debilitating illness so maybe it wasn't the time to drop Heislip.

Leamy isn't an international standard 8 anymore he was and still is a fine 6,he was only okay at 8 when he was at his best imo.

Yeah you caught me I was going to suggest SoB but you've found a convenient exscuse for Kidney again,let me ask you then will you criticise Kidney if he doens't drop Heaslip for the tour to NZ or is that too important,how about the autumn internationals?When would be a good time or will you just keep excusing him as he makes non decisions time after time.

How many times have you to be told that he has been suffering from a hip injury for 6 months prior to his operation (that would include the world cup).

MUNSTER have been dealt a major blow ahead of Saturday’s critical Heineken Cup tie with Castres following confirmation that influential back-row forward Denis Leamy is facing four months on the sidelines due to a hip injury.

Thirty year Leamy has been ruled out of action until mid-May as he undergoes surgery for a long-term hip problem. As well as missing key Heineken Cup and RaboDirect PRO12 games for Munster in the coming months, the luckless Leamy will also be unavailable for Ireland’s upcoming RBS Six Nations campaign.

Leamy visited a specialist in London on Thursday last when it was confirmed that he would need surgery to repair his damaged hip. The injury has limited Leamy’s ability to train fully over the past six or seven months and flared up again in recent weeks.

Munster coach Tony McGahan does, however, expect flanker Niall Ronan who retired injured from the weekend’s bonus point PRO12 win over Treviso, to be fit for Saturday’s crucial Heineken Cup Round 5 tie with Castres Olympique at Thomond Park (3.40pm).

I think Heislip should go on the tour to NZ, just needs to be left out of the match day 22 once or twice if the rest of the backrowers are available. Leamy probably won't be going and who knows about Wally, so he is still needed.

o driscoll was playing injured for the guts of a year.

we will know within a month of his comeback if he is going to have a 3rd indian summer. il reserve judgment until then. if he is not at the races and looks a shell of himself we may have to make a very hard call. if his performances are worse than earls and cave then he should not get into our team on reputation alone

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Denis Leamy, the only other international standard No. 8 along with David Wallace are injured ?

If you're going to say SOB - during the tournament he spent a week in hospital with a debilitating illness so maybe it wasn't the time to drop Heislip.

Leamy isn't an international standard 8 anymore he was and still is a fine 6,he was only okay at 8 when he was at his best imo.

Yeah you caught me I was going to suggest SoB but you've found a convenient exscuse for Kidney again,let me ask you then will you criticise Kidney if he doens't drop Heaslip for the tour to NZ or is that too important,how about the autumn internationals?When would be a good time or will you just keep excusing him as he makes non decisions time after time.

How many times have you to be told that he has been suffering from a hip injury for 6 months prior to his operation (that would include the world cup).

Once is plenty (you've never told me that before).

How is it that injury relevant Leamy hasn't been an international standard 8 in about 3 years.

Finally will you answer my question,will you criticise Kidney if he doens't drop Heaslip for the tour to NZ or is that too important,how about the autumn internationals?When would be a good time or will you just keep excusing him as he makes non decisions time after time.

Golden wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Golden wrote:Ah of course it's heaslips fault for been honoured at been selected for the lions why we've been Poopie for 3 years.

Why didn't you say that on page one and save us all a lot of time?

Heaslip isn't a team player, thats whats wrong with him. He is too far up his own ass (which is what I said in the beginning and have had to explain it to everyone).

Then why has kidney picked him consistently for 3/4 years?

He had a good season in 2009. SOB was only emerging in '10 and he has to start as he is a useless bench option.

DOD and SIN just want to keep petty-bitching about Ulster & Leinster players. It's actually quite funny to read and a big part of what is wrong with Irish rugby

Reality check Gibson...this isnt about the provinces...its about how good are the players we have. The Lulster brigade are all whingeing about Kidney as coach. It surely cant be the players...However since he took over the complaints about Munster bias started, he changed that, the complaints about style....he has been trying to change that...now it is clearly that the players are far too good for Kidney...well maybe they arent, and the evidence seems to show that.

Sin é wrote:
He had a good season in 2009. SOB was only emerging in '10 and he has to start as he is a useless bench option.

So he's undroppable no matter how poorly he plays.

DOD wrote:[b]..well maybe they arent, and the evidence seems to show that.

What evidence,you never give one shred of evidence to back up your opinions.

This is the situation so far:

The players are letting Kidney down is one view.

Another view is that he keeps stubbornly picking players who let him down.

Another view is that he has no choice, it's all he has.

Another view is that all he has have had a pretty big say in European rugby honours in the last few years right up to the present, plus a Slam in 2009.

Another view is that League isn't International standard.

Another view is that League is often a lot higher standard at Provincial level than what Ireland get up to in their yearly 6N campaign.

Another view is you can't blame Kidney for Ross being the only TH

Another view is of course you can't.

OOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Agreement alert!!!!!! This is not a Drill! This is not a Drill!

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Being selected for Ireland and winning something with them should really be the pinnacle of players careers. The Lions is good but representing your country and winning, say a slam, should be the pinnacle i feel.

Eirebilly, I salute you!

Get BOD on his own and I'd bet he will say different. He knows what it takes to be a truly great Lion and what it means Worldwide. 6-N is not in that league. To get to Lions level, you have to be one of the best for your country anyway. And then, better than your peers in all the other teams.So they are both inter-twined. It makes sense.

To be honest, I think BOD was most happy when he won the HC with Leinster in 2009 - with his mates. He mentioned Hickie and others then. They (me too) waited a long, long time for that and went through so much pain to get there. Of course it was great to win the SLAM with your country... but Im talking about the individual dreams and ambitions of the very Top players here. They want to win everything and get to the pinnacle of the game. Now a RWC win ecplipses it ALL.

Anyway, you will get different answers, depending on who they are talking to at the time.

And, it doesnt really matter in this context. We need a new phhoking coach.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Denis Leamy, the only other international standard No. 8 along with David Wallace are injured ?

If you're going to say SOB - during the tournament he spent a week in hospital with a debilitating illness so maybe it wasn't the time to drop Heislip.

Leamy isn't an international standard 8 anymore he was and still is a fine 6,he was only okay at 8 when he was at his best imo.

Yeah you caught me I was going to suggest SoB but you've found a convenient exscuse for Kidney again,let me ask you then will you criticise Kidney if he doens't drop Heaslip for the tour to NZ or is that too important,how about the autumn internationals?When would be a good time or will you just keep excusing him as he makes non decisions time after time.

How many times have you to be told that he has been suffering from a hip injury for 6 months prior to his operation (that would include the world cup).

Once is plenty (you've never told me that before).

How is it that injury relevant Leamy hasn't been an international standard 8 in about 3 years.

Finally will you answer my question,will you criticise Kidney if he doens't drop Heaslip for the tour to NZ or is that too important,how about the autumn internationals?When would be a good time or will you just keep excusing him as he makes non decisions time after time.

He had a shoulder operation in '08 when he was out for about a year after that. He then picked up a knee injury against Perp. in that super win down there and was out for the rest of the season.

Basically he has had a lot of injuries over the last couple of years.

I will criticise Kidney if he starts Heislip and Ferris, SOB, POM, Leamy & Wally are available.

(PS - I've posted above that Leamy has been carrying an injury. You obviously didn't read it).

I don't see how a player feels about the Lions has anything to do with the fact that Ireland have been underperforming for three years? Irrelevant.

So we have 2 main theories for the Ireland's performances.

1. DOD, Sin e, BM
The Leinster players are rubbish and that's not Kidney's fault.
Not very convincing given that Leinster currently sit at the top of European rugby. Anyone trying to claim the Munster or Ulster players are rubbish looks equally silly because Munster aren't far off the top themselves and Ulster are heading in the same direction

2. Nearly everybody else
The coaching team at best needs to make serious changes to what they're doing and at worst has lost the plot and needs to be replaced now. This seems blindingly obvious to me. I suspect a couple of posters take my criticism of Kidney as anti-Munster sentiment. It's got nothing to do with what neck of the woods he's from (I don't like that parochial nonsense). It's got everything to do with what the coaching team is doing to a clearly talented group of players.

Could I request that we knock theory 1 on the head for now (maybe start a new thread on Irish players being rubbish and discuss it there). I want to discuss theory 2, which the vast majority of posters go along with.

a. Does anyone think the IRFU are even considering parting company with Kidney?
b. If not, could Kiss/Smal be replaced?
c. How badly do we need a scrum coach/backs coach/fitness coach?
d. Would we improve if we completely replaced the coaching team?
e. Who would be the favoured candidates?

Gibson wrote:We need a new phhoking coach.

Yup an attack coach

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
He had a good season in 2009. SOB was only emerging in '10 and he has to start as he is a useless bench option.

So he's undroppable no matter how poorly he plays.

No, he can be dropped if SOB or Leamy are both fit as they have played international rugby at 8 and no one else is doing it now. Maybe Roger Wilson might put a bit of pressure on him now that he will be back for Ulster.

Gibson wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Being selected for Ireland and winning something with them should really be the pinnacle of players careers. The Lions is good but representing your country and winning, say a slam, should be the pinnacle i feel.

Eirebilly, I salute you!

Get BOD on his own and I'd bet he will say different. He knows what it takes to be a truly great Lion and what it means Worldwide. 6-N is not in that league. To get to Lions level, you have to be one the best for your country anyway. And then, better than your peers in all the other teams.So they are both inter-twined. It makes sense.

TBH honest, I think BOD was most happy when he won the HC with Leinster in 2009 - with his mates. He mentioned Hickie and others then. They (me too) waited a long, long time for that and went through so much pain to get there. Of course it was great to win the SLAM with your country... but Im talking about the individual dreams and ambitions of the very Top players here. They want to win everything and get to the pinnacle of the game. Now a RWC win ecplipses it ALL.

Anyway, you will get different answers, depending on who they are talking to at the time.

And, it doesnt really matter in this context. We need a new phhoking coach.

If that is the mindset then i am concerned about the future. I have always imagined the pinnacle to be representing your country. If players are only motivated and happy when playing for their province then Ireland are in serious trouble.

Feck! 9 pages in less than 72 hours?

Seriously fellas, you could start a row in an empty feckin house.

Sin é wrote:

No, he can be dropped if SOB or Leamy are both fit as they have played international rugby at 8 and no one else is doing it now. Maybe Roger Wilson might put a bit of pressure on him now that he will be back for Ulster.

I think you're living in a fantasy land,Kidney won't drop Heaslip unless he produces consistent performances as bad as Luke Fitz and ToL pre WC.Anonymity isn't enough to get dropped from Kidneys Ireland team you have to be visibly making mistakes over and over again although now that I think of it D'Arcy even gets away with that.

PJHolybloke wrote:Feck! 9 pages in less than 72 hours?

Seriously fellas, you could start a row in an empty feckin house.

You starting?

red_stag wrote:

Gibson wrote:We need a new phhoking coach.

Yup an attack coach

Meant Head Coach, Stag. And a backs coach. A defence coach. A forwards coach. A psychiatrist/hypnotist/cum Sports-psychologist - to get us over this give it a lash attitude. And someone inspiring to lead the IRFU.

Not much.

Gibson wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Gibson wrote:We need a new phhoking coach.

Yup an attack coach

Meant Head Coach, Stag. And a backs coach. A defence coach. A forwards coach. A psychiatrist/hypnotist/cum Sports-psychologist - to get us over this give it a lash attitude. And someone inspiring to lead the IRFU.

Not much.

Gibbo

eirebilly wrote:

Gibson wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Being selected for Ireland and winning something with them should really be the pinnacle of players careers. The Lions is good but representing your country and winning, say a slam, should be the pinnacle i feel.

Eirebilly, I salute you!

Get BOD on his own and I'd bet he will say different. He knows what it takes to be a truly great Lion and what it means Worldwide. 6-N is not in that league. To get to Lions level, you have to be one the best for your country anyway. And then, better than your peers in all the other teams.So they are both inter-twined. It makes sense.

TBH honest, I think BOD was most happy when he won the HC with Leinster in 2009 - with his mates. He mentioned Hickie and others then. They (me too) waited a long, long time for that and went through so much pain to get there. Of course it was great to win the SLAM with your country... but Im talking about the individual dreams and ambitions of the very Top players here. They want to win everything and get to the pinnacle of the game. Now a RWC win ecplipses it ALL.

Anyway, you will get different answers, depending on who they are talking to at the time.

And, it doesnt really matter in this context. We need a new phhoking coach.

If that is the mindset then i am concerned about the future. I have always imagined the pinnacle to be representing your country. If players are only motivated and happy when playing for their province then Ireland are in serious trouble.

I didnt say or mean that Billy. Dont get like SIN now. It is one of the World Greats we are talking about here. Different kettle of spanners. He has died for his country on the field and has carried us on his back on so many occasions. They ALL mean something to him and he gives 100% to all of them. But hes rare.

I think we are talking at cross-purposes here.

Yeah i know what you mean Gibbo but there is an underlying issue as to why certain players dont seem to get motivated to play for Ireland.

Some of what we have works. Kidney has not made that many blunders but the ones he has done have been significant and in areas he has done well in the past.

Since day one Kidney has done a poor job recruiting a solid backs coach. Thats always been Kidneys strenght - surround himself with right people. Didnt work with Gaffney and has not in anyone to remedy things. His other mistake was in man management. He has actually done a very good job in some positions creating depth and competition but not others - namely centre and second row. When the game sped up and the coaching teams Grandslam winning game plan was not working he needed new men in his coaching team - which we didnt see.

I believe Kidney could genuinely salvage things and do quite well. I am not sure he should be given the chance to though.

eirebilly wrote:

If that is the mindset then i am concerned about the future. I have always imagined the pinnacle to be representing your country. If players are only motivated and happy when playing for their province then Ireland are in serious trouble.

Why do you think it's an either/or situation.Why can't a player feel that winning with his province is the pinnacle of his career yet still give 100% to the cause when playing for Ireland or the Lions or whoever else they play with?

[quote="Feckless Rogue"]I don't see how a player feels about the Lions has anything to do with the fact that Ireland have been underperforming for three years? Irrelevant.

It not what he feels about the Lions - its his attitude that Ireland doesn't come first. Expect to see a major improvement in his performance next season prior to Lions selecton.

So we have 2 main theories for the Ireland's performances.

1. DOD, Sin e, BM
All non-Leinster players are not rubbish and that's not Kidney's fault. [fixed that for you]
Not very convincing given that Leinster currently sit at the top of European rugby. Anyone trying to claim the Munster or Ulster players are rubbish looks equally silly because Munster aren't far off the top themselves and Ulster are heading in the same direction.
Look mate, Munster were the No. 1 club in Europe for a couple of years (and are still very near the top). That doesn't mean that all its players were/are international standard. For instance, Ian Dowling was brilliant for Munster. He wasn't an international class player though. As well as that, Isa Nacewa, Doug Howlett, Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Rickard Straus, BJ Botha are not eligible to play for Ireland.

2. Nearly everybody else
The coaching team at best needs to make serious changes to what they're doing and at worst has lost the plot and needs to be replaced now. This seems blindingly obvious to me. I suspect a couple of posters take my criticism of Kidney as anti-Munster sentiment. It's got nothing to do with what neck of the woods he's from (I don't like that parochial nonsense). It's got everything to do with what the coaching team is doing to a clearly talented group of players.

Your criticism does not allow for circumstances such as injury, etc. to be a factor (as does most critics of Kidney). Its just tunnel vision criticism where you think the more you post it, the truer it gets.

Could I request that we knock theory 1 on the head for now (maybe start a new thread on Irish players being rubbish and discuss it there). I want to discuss theory 2, which the vast majority of posters go along with.

It doesn't mean its correct because the majority (of about 3/4 posters LOL) think so!

a. Does anyone think the IRFU are even considering parting company with Kidney? NO
b. If not, could Kiss/Smal be replaced? Smal might have to be replaced. But Foley was the forwards coach for the 6Ns.
c. How badly do we need a scrum coach/backs coach/fitness coach? We have a scrum coach (Feek). Don't think there was anything wrong with fitness over the 6Ns bearing in mind that they played 4 internationals in a row and one of those had a 6 day turnaround.
d. Would we improve if we completely replaced the coaching team? Maybe in the short term. Maybe not. All depends on who the coach is. Michael Bradley did well with Ireland when he took them to the SH before Kidney's appointment.
e. Who would be the favoured candidates?Please do not say Conor O'Shea. He said last week that he wasn't remotely qualified which is a nice way of saying he isn't interested.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't see how a player feels about the Lions has anything to do with the fact that Ireland have been underperforming for three years? Irrelevant.

So we have 2 main theories for the Ireland's performances.

1. DOD, Sin e, BM
The Leinster players are rubbish and that's not Kidney's fault.
Not very convincing given that Leinster currently sit at the top of European rugby. Anyone trying to claim the Munster or Ulster players are rubbish looks equally silly because Munster aren't far off the top themselves and Ulster are heading in the same direction

2. Nearly everybody else
The coaching team at best needs to make serious changes to what they're doing and at worst has lost the plot and needs to be replaced now. This seems blindingly obvious to me. I suspect a couple of posters take my criticism of Kidney as anti-Munster sentiment. It's got nothing to do with what neck of the woods he's from (I don't like that parochial nonsense). It's got everything to do with what the coaching team is doing to a clearly talented group of players.

Could I request that we knock theory 1 on the head for now (maybe start a new thread on Irish players being rubbish and discuss it there). I want to discuss theory 2, which the vast majority of posters go along with.

a. Does anyone think the IRFU are even considering parting company with Kidney? Not yet but they will expect good results and performances in the short term. This will mean next to no new faces on NZ tour as Kidneys job is at stake, the old guard could conceivably ship a few serious beatings on tour and i think they will fire him or he will walk should this happen
b. If not, could Kiss/Smal be replaced? Kiss is a good defense coach but is effectively double jobbing/Smal has done ok but not a disaster if we lose him. Foley will do a good job
c. How badly do we need a scrum coach/backs coach/fitness coach? i thought feek was involved, excuse me if i have gone mental/ VERY BADLY/ nah do less defending and we will have more energy
d. Would we improve if we completely replaced the coaching team? we are very very close to being at this stage. in a bit of vicious circle. If Kidney trys new things and players in summer and we get beaten out the gate i think IRFU (who are very short termist) will fire him on the basis of results in the last year.
e. Who would be the favoured candidates?

Nick Mallet as head coach would do me just fine and a new voice as attack coach. do not really care who. O Shea would be another option but i think he enjoys club life in England and is settled over there. Bradley has got a Scottish team running in trys for fun, no mean feat. He could have a role to play

red_stag wrote:

I believe Kidney could genuinely salvage things and do quite well. I am not sure he should be given the chance to though.

I'll agree with you here,he could possibly turn things round but it would be a huge gamble to give him the chance.He will get to see out his contract though so we can only hope he starts to actually try something new going forward.