Irish and Welsh contrast?

Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

a) The Irish provinces are strong the welsh regions are not - they also recruit from the SH better than the Regions
b) The Irish posters on here suggest that playing for the Provinces is at least as important as playing for Ireland - The pinnacle of a welshmans life is playing for Wales.
c) Coaching at the Provonces is top draw whilst at the Regions it is absolutely dire
d) When it comes to international teams at the moment Wales are a more complete side and on the up, Ireland IMO peaked a while back and their "golden" generation are on the way down.

Just a few thoughts for now - enjoy them

1. John afoa,
2. Bj Botha,
3. brad thorn
4. Richardt Strauss,
5. w du Perez,
6. Johan muller,
7. Heinke van der merwe,
8. Nathan white.

The Irish provinces have recruited foreign players to plug the obvious weakness in the Irish front five. As a result they are able to field teams with few weaknesses.

In contrast, each welsh region has weaknesses, but in different areas. For example, the Scarlets and the blues have world class back lines but no front five. The ospreys meanwhile have a relatively ordinary back line, but a very strong pack.

Combine the strengths of each of the welsh regions, add a few French based players and you have a very strong welsh team.

Ireland have a weak front five and there is nowhere for Declan kidney to go because the provinces have all recruited foreign players in that area.

And like the Murphys us welsh are not bitter














Just Twisted

I do not agree one bit that Ireland have a weak front five. We have some excellent options at loosehead, hooker, and at second row. Our biggest weakness, across all four provinces, is our lack of tightheads. However our front five as a whole is not weak.

What options do Ireland have at hooker, loose head and second row? There are no options because the provincial squads are packed with foreign players as noted above! Ireland have some excellent players: sexton, Fitzgerald, Kearney, odriscoll, bowe, the whole back row are world class. But without a platform in the front five they are set to continue to struggle at international level.

Scrumdown you are way off, I would say we have the best Hooker in Europe in Rory Best, at loosehead we have Cian Healy, and a great prospects coming through such as Paddy McAllister, in the second row we have O'Connell, Ryan, Tuohy, O'Callaghan and Toner, hardly weak is it. I agree with Rory its just tighthead were we are weak. If you think foreign signings are the only reason the provinces are a lot stronger than the regions then you are deluding yourself. The other factors are the fact that we have the money to keep our top internationals at provinces, unlike the Welsh with their regions, the fact that the provinces are successful brands unlike the regions who some will tell you are on the brink of collapse and the fact that the provinces are much better coached than Ireland national team.

RubyGuby wrote:a) The Irish provinces are strong the welsh regions are not - they also recruit from the SH better than the Regions
b) The Irish posters on here suggest that playing for the Provinces is at least as important as playing for Ireland - The pinnacle of a welshmans life is playing for Wales.
c) Coaching at the Provonces is top draw whilst at the Regions it is absolutely dire
d) When it comes to international teams at the moment Wales are a more complete side and on the up, Ireland IMO peaked a while back and their "golden" generation are on the way down.

Just a few thoughts for now - enjoy them

Ruby, agree with your points particularly the dire coaching. You did omit the important point of our regions having NO MONEY! Biggest problem we face in Welsh professional rugby.

The OP forgets that the Ospereys beat Leinster away and are through to the Rabbo play offs.

The Irish regions are actual extablished regions - the Welsh ones are not. Leinster has a direct 'feeder club' giving it massive strength in depth, I dont know if this is the same for Musnter or Ulster.

They also keep most of their best players due to central contracts and tax breaks - welsh rugby cannot afford to do this at the moment.

Plus, as others have mentioned, they can afford top SH players who actually add something to their squad. Their club coaches are heads above the Welsh ones.

BUT..... the Welsh International coaches are miles above the Irish ones - it shows in our achievements and as I put my country before my region I'm Ok with this.

Very good article by Matt Williams in the IT yestderday on this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0507/1224315687995.html

Basically hes saying a major problem is the different rugby philosphies and styles of play at the different provinces...that rather than the tactics and style of play being driven by the National side, as in NZ they are being driven at provincial level.

Leinster are playing a very successful and effective brand of rugby but it is radically different to the style of play at Ulster and Munster and also Ireland.

I agree with Williams. It's clear to anyone that the Irish team lack cohesion with the ball and are confused tactically hence are performing far below the sum of their parts.

Munster and Leinster have always played differently but in the past most of the pack have been from Munster along with the Munster half backs and the outside backs were from Leinster. The game plan was based around attacking from the set piece.

The multi phase, heads up game that Kidney is sending the team out to play is not functioning because too many key players are not on the same wave length.

There are also other factors like the central contracts which make it very difficult for form players to break into the side but I think Williams hits the nail on the head.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Scrumdown you are way off, I would say we have the best Hooker in Europe in Rory Best, at loosehead we have Cian Healy, and a great prospects coming through such as Paddy McAllister, in the second row we have O'Connell, Ryan, Tuohy, O'Callaghan and Toner, hardly weak is it. I agree with Rory its just tighthead were we are weak. If you think foreign signings are the only reason the provinces are a lot stronger than the regions then you are deluding yourself. The other factors are the fact that we have the money to keep our top internationals at provinces, unlike the Welsh with their regions, the fact that the provinces are successful brands unlike the regions who some will tell you are on the brink of collapse and the fact that the provinces are much better coached than Ireland national team.

I had this argument on another thread, mostly with secretfly , but Rory Best aside the rest of the front row options that Ireland have are not up to standard. Cian Healey and Ross might have potential, but at the moment they are rubbish at scrummaging, as I have seen in the last few games they have played in both for province and country. It's all well and good throwing the ball about with the world class backs that you have, but you need a platform. Ireland at the moment remind me of the Scarlets, they could potentialy score a try from anywhere, but they do not put in the hard work at the coal face, whilst watching the semi final against Claremont, I thought BOD was doing more work than the forwards at the breakdown, and he is a back, albeit a world class one, but surley the forwards need to pull their weight just a little more. And now que the slamming I am going to get for saying this.

I think following the England game its hard to argue against those points Dowlais

I'm going to stick up for the Welsh here, the Irish provinces have bought their titles rather than won them (and Ulster’s was won when no English teams were in it, very devalued IMO).

Scrumdown wrote:What options do Ireland have at hooker, loose head and second row? There are no options because the provincial squads are packed with foreign players as noted above! Ireland have some excellent players: sexton, Fitzgerald, Kearney, odriscoll, bowe, the whole back row are world class. But without a platform in the front five they are set to continue to struggle at international level.

Just because you are ignorant of what options we do have, does not mean there are no options. At hooker we have Best who is surely going to be starting at hooker for the lions. Behind him we have the talented Sherry and Cronin. Further down, the likes of Annett. At loosehead we have Healy who has proven on the highest level he is a fantastic loosehead. Behind him, Court and McAllister. At second row, do you honestly need me to list the options there? O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ryan, O'Driscoll (all Munster) Cullen, Tuohy, Toner, Stevenson, and the likes of Nagle and Henderson coming through.

Even at tighthead we have future options in Hagan, Macklin, Fitzpatrick (who was brilliant in the HEC semi final). Now, are you satisfied that Ireland have plenty of options in the tight five? At tighthead we have a lot of work to do, but hopefully we will improve.

HERSH wrote:I'm going to stick up for the Welsh here, the Irish provinces have bought their titles rather than won them (and Ulster’s was won when no English teams were in it, very devalued IMO).

Explain how Leinster and Munster have bought their titles? Sounds like you are a bit envious to me.

Rory!

"Best who is surely going to be starting at hooker for the lions." - Really! I think he's got some competition for that spot

rodders wrote: Rory!

I don't see what I have said that would get that response.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

HERSH wrote:I'm going to stick up for the Welsh here, the Irish provinces have bought their titles rather than won them (and Ulster’s was won when no English teams were in it, very devalued IMO).

Explain how Leinster and Munster have bought their titles? Sounds like you are a bit envious to me.

Of course I am, both have nice stadiums, both have great support and both get the rub of the green from the Refs, why wouldn't I be envious?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

rodders wrote: Rory!

I don't see what I have said that would get that response.

It's the fact that you said anything Rory! Best leave the fishermen to it...... ...

Sigh - I am an easy target aren't I..

I am an easy target aren't I..

Only if Best is throwing into you in a lineout

Ignoring the bitter comments about the provinces being packed with foreigners that are winning HC's for us, which is obviously nonsense....

Matt Williams hit the nail on the head. The the most noticeable characteristic of the Irish test team is complete tactical confusion and therefore lack of confidence.

The Welsh gameplan is simple but effective and perfectly suited to their considerable abilities. Between the 2010 6 Nations and the RWC there didn't seem to be any obvious Irish gameplan. It was a confused mess. Since then a recognizable gameplan has emerged. And it amounts to "keep kicking garryowens and work really hard in chasing them". It's pathetic and very difficult and frustrating to watch.

In New Zealand everybody from under age to NPC to Super rugby to test rugby are being coached to play the All Blacks way. What is the Irish way?

I could tell you what the Munster way is. I could tell you what the Leinster way is. But I have no idea what the Irish way is. This problem was mitigated for a while when the entire pack and half backs were Munster and the back 5 were Leinster. It made cohesion easier.

But now we need a national strategy that suits Irish players. And all the provinces should be endeavouring to produce players with the skills to play that elusive Irish way. Kidney's way is out of the question. In my opinion it's Joe Schmidt's way. We don't have the biggest players. But we have dynamic and skillful players. Let's actually use their skills and stop kicking garryowens and box kicks every time we get the ball please.


With regard to the regions it's simple. They have less fans, less identity, less money and worse coaches than the Irish provinces. But as hard as it is for me to say it, because I love Leinster, I would rather have three Grand Slams than 3 Heineken Cups.

Oh and by the way I agree that Wales are a more complete team than Ireland. We are quite weak in the 7 and 12 jerseys and have average 9's, and have no depth for tighthead. Wales have no obvious weaknesses. Maybe their tighthead depth isn't great either.

I just think Ireland should be playing much better than they are.

Oh, and the Welsh flyhalf isn't great, but he's doing a job. Their using his running and passing skills well. They have Halfpenny to kick. It's called concealing your weaknesses and using your strengths. Something Kidney isn't doing.

I think you've lost the Lansdowne Road factor a bit - Nice stadium and all that but the wild concrete slabbed abyss that was Lansdowne was a fiersome place with the Irish fans marauding you from every angle

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ignoring the bitter comments about the provinces being packed with foreigners that are winning HC's for us, which is obviously nonsense....

Matt Williams hit the nail on the head. The the most noticeable characteristic of the Irish test team is complete tactical confusion and therefore lack of confidence.

The Welsh gameplan is simple but effective and perfectly suited to their considerable abilities. Between the 2010 6 Nations and the RWC there didn't seem to be any obvious Irish gameplan. It was a confused mess. Since then a recognizable gameplan has emerged. And it amounts to "keep kicking garryowens and work really hard in chasing them". It's pathetic and very difficult and frustrating to watch.

In New Zealand everybody from under age to NPC to Super rugby to test rugby are being coached to play the All Blacks way. What is the Irish way?

I could tell you what the Munster way is. I could tell you what the Leinster way is. But I have no idea what the Irish way is. This problem was mitigated for a while when the entire pack and half backs were Munster and the back 5 were Leinster. It made cohesion easier.

But now we need a national strategy that suits Irish players. And all the provinces should be endeavouring to produce players with the skills to play that elusive Irish way. Kidney's way is out of the question. In my opinion it's Joe Schmidt's way. We don't have the biggest players. But we have dynamic and skillful players. Let's actually use their skills and stop kicking garryowens and box kicks every time we get the ball please.


With regard to the regions it's simple. They have less fans, less identity, less money and worse coaches than the Irish provinces. But as hard as it is for me to say it, because I love Leinster, I would rather have three Grand Slams than 3 Heineken Cups.

I didn't say you provices are packed with foreigners, I said apart from Rory Best, all your Irish props are rubbish, which to be honest, unless they pull their finger out will continue to be rubbish. Thats not to say though, with a little bit of hard work, they might turn out to be half decent, but for people who are championing players like Healey they are seriuosly deluded.

LordDowlais wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ignoring the bitter comments about the provinces being packed with foreigners that are winning HC's for us, which is obviously nonsense....

Matt Williams hit the nail on the head. The the most noticeable characteristic of the Irish test team is complete tactical confusion and therefore lack of confidence.

The Welsh gameplan is simple but effective and perfectly suited to their considerable abilities. Between the 2010 6 Nations and the RWC there didn't seem to be any obvious Irish gameplan. It was a confused mess. Since then a recognizable gameplan has emerged. And it amounts to "keep kicking garryowens and work really hard in chasing them". It's pathetic and very difficult and frustrating to watch.

In New Zealand everybody from under age to NPC to Super rugby to test rugby are being coached to play the All Blacks way. What is the Irish way?

I could tell you what the Munster way is. I could tell you what the Leinster way is. But I have no idea what the Irish way is. This problem was mitigated for a while when the entire pack and half backs were Munster and the back 5 were Leinster. It made cohesion easier.

But now we need a national strategy that suits Irish players. And all the provinces should be endeavouring to produce players with the skills to play that elusive Irish way. Kidney's way is out of the question. In my opinion it's Joe Schmidt's way. We don't have the biggest players. But we have dynamic and skillful players. Let's actually use their skills and stop kicking garryowens and box kicks every time we get the ball please.


With regard to the regions it's simple. They have less fans, less identity, less money and worse coaches than the Irish provinces. But as hard as it is for me to say it, because I love Leinster, I would rather have three Grand Slams than 3 Heineken Cups.

I didn't say you provices are packed with foreigners, I said apart from Rory Best, all your Irish props are rubbish, which to be honest, unless they pull their finger out will continue to be rubbish. Thats not to say though, with a little bit of hard work, they might turn out to be half decent, but for people who are championing players like Healey they are seriuosly deluded.

Never heard of this Healey fella.

Cian Healy on the other hand is a very good prop

I agree with LordDowlis......

Rory Best is our best prop.....

Oh o.k, you Irish supporters are so precious, I was talking about all your first choice front row, and apart from Best, there are no others that fit the bill, you can talk all you like about players with potential but until certain players pull their fingers out Ireland will struggle if you think otherwise then you are all off your heads.

if your going to give out about a player the least you can do is get his name is right. also just because you the lord does not feel he is a good player doesnt mean that he is a rubbish player as you claim. i think you will find that he is rarely demolished in the scrum apart from a few occassions.

If you can show me a prop that has never been dominated at one stage of their career i will admit you are right;

The Irish props aren't rubbish. Healy is very similar to Gethin Jenkins, in that he's lauded for his loose work, but he's not the most destructive scrummager, but is mostly reliable. At Healy's age most props aren't even capped beause they simply can't scrummage to a high enough standard yet. So I'm not worried. He'll keep getting better and better. And Court is a good scrummaging loosehead.

Ross is a good international level scrummager. The scrum is no problem when he's on the field. Unlike John Hayes he is even destructive at times. Got the better of the English scrum in 2011. Was beaten by the English scrum in 2012, before he went off injured. It happens. Other front rows that Healy and Ross have aquitted themselves very well against are Clermont, Toulouse, Racing Metro and Saints at club level, and pretty much every top test team at international level. The fact that the English crushed us when we had a loosehead prop, Tom Court playing at tighthead does not make Ross rubbish. It exposes our lack of depth behind him. Although there are some good prospects. If only Kidney would bring them into the squad.

Obviously the Irish pack will never dominate test packs the way the Leinster pack dominate weaker club packs. But that just increases our need to use the good ball we do get the way Leinster use it. No team in Europe can rack up points quicker and more heavily than them. And they do it by posing multiple threats to the defence, finding space and exploiting it by running into it. For most of Leinsters tries the final pass could be made to any number of options. Everyone is running a quality support line. Ireland just kick the ball away or run straight into defenders. And the kicks don't tend to be very well executed either.

In the RWC quarter final the Welsh knew exactly who was going to carry the ball and concentrated on cutting them down. The threat was predictable and therefore easy to stop. That's a damning indictment of the coaching team. And they didn't learn anything from it in the 6 Nations. In fact they added in a ridiculously dumb drift defence against the biggest backs in the tournament for good measure.

LordDowlais, its interesting. My own theory is that we are badly lacking at tighthead and that is the real issue.

I think that Cian Healy, Rory Best and Adam Jones would not get shunted around that badly. I even think that Tom Court, Sean Cronin and Adam Jones would do just fine.

I don't think Mike Ross is anywhere near as good as some Irish fans think and I think that outside him we have nothing. Thats the real issue IMO and I think that although our looseheads and hookers are not destructive scrummagers they would do fine on the back of a stronger tighthead.

Main thing is that as a front row unit we are lacking and have been able to mask the tighthead issue at provincial level with BJ Botha and John Afoa.

Can BOD move to the front row

Sheridan was never dominated as a prop - he just let the others get the better of him on times

Totally agree stag. 100%.

Healy is a top quality LH imo, who can still improve his scrummaging.

Ross is the weak link. He's good but not top class but hes the best we have by a long way.

I think Ross has had a poor season, he seems to be getting shunted or collapsing a lot more this year than last. Not quite sure why, maybe he's concentrating on the pies too much! With Healy, you have to remember he's only 23, a nipper at prop. He'll only improve for the next 10 years.

To be honest I think Ross may already be on the wane physically. I know he was a late bloomer and not that old for a prop but hes been known to struggle for fitness.

He certainly hasn't looked the same since the RWC.

In an ideal world he'd be used sparingly but because there are so few options Ireland and Leinster are not able to rest him.

I think a big part of the beasting he got in the 6N by England was because he played 4 games on the trot and against Clermont he collapsed the last 3 scrums.

He simply isn't fit enough to be playing high intensity games on a regular basis.

I agree with Rodders, I think he is on the way out.

Totally agree with both of you (stag and rodders). Ross is our most important player, that is a fact, but he isn't exactly a good player. He is a solid enough scrummager. We NEED to be blooding his replacements now. The players I am most hopeful for are Hagan and Macklin. Fitzpatrick I hope will be a good stopgap between Ross and those two guys. What do Leinster fans think about Hagan btw?

Hagan needs to improve in his technical skills. He's got pretty good hands and can move around the park, but he can't lock the outside arm of the loosehead, even against fairly standard opposition. He gets driven in and down far too often.

I would take a massive leaf out of the Ospreys/Wales book. They had a big fat bloke who could scrummage - they told him if he got fit he would play internationally, if not then he didnt have a chance of it.

February 2009 - Life is sweet for Wales prop Adam Jones after he ditches the chocs

June 2011 - Adam Jones handed World Cup ultimatum over weight gain

October 2011 - Fatboy Slim: How Jones cut back on chips, chocolate and beer

This is what we need to do with Declan Fitzpatrick. Get him into the side first of all. I think currently he is best option and one that can be most easily fixed.

I have said that they both have potential, both Ross and Healy, but at the moment they offer next to nothing at scrum time, I agree with you by and large about the comparisons between Gethin and Healy but Gethin gets a lot more work done around the park than Healy by a country mile, remember his charge down in 05, and he does at least hold his own in the tight exchange, I am sorry but I have seen Healy get mullered on more than the odd occasion, but for some reason none of you want to see whats plainly infront of your eyes, and the fact is that Healy needs to work really hard on his game if he is going to be considered in Gethins league.

Dowlais, sometimes I wonder if you are watching a different sport, no offence. With Ross, yes, he isn't exactly great but he does hold his own. Healy however has shown countless times that he can hold his own against the best tightheads around, and at times he has even got the upper hand over his opponent despite being part of a relatively average scrummaging unit. Leinster and Ireland generally haven't had much of an issue at scrum time recently, when they haven't played a loosehead out of position.

I find it hard to take your opinion seriously about scrummaging when you suggested that Edinburgh had the upper hand in the scrum against Ulster in the quarter final (basically one of the main factors in how we won that game).

LordDowlais wrote:but for some reason none of you want to see whats plainly infront of your eyes, and the fact is that Healy needs to work really hard on his game if he is going to be considered in Gethins league.

I dont think this is fair to say. Healy is a young prop who has come a long way in a short period of time. He is younger now than Gethin was in 2005 and to be fair Gethin is a serious serious player. Not matching up to him just yet doesnt make him a bad player.

Healy is not a finished article but IMO too many people still just think of him as the 21 year old prop who was subbed off after 30 minutes against Toulouse as he couldnt hack it.

BTW I don't think Ross has potential. He is 32 years of age, has only a dozen Irish caps and IMO was only ever good enough to plug a hole at tighthead. He is a stop gap who I still think talks a better game than he plays.

If you are not carefull, you might get one of those myths that England had not so long ago, his name was Sheridan, and although he was decent enough he was no world beater that they had us all to believe. I am not saying Healy will never be great, I am just saying he isn't at the moment. I have whitnessed this in the last couple of games I have watched him play, the only difference in one game was that Ireland did not have Van Der Mewe to come on and tighten things up for them.

Actually stag I think Gethin was about 23/24 years of age 7 years ago. So yes I can compare them at the same ages.

Dowlais,

Why does he have to be either a world beater or a nobody. Can he not simply be an international standard player.

As you correctly say the real issue was that Ireland dont have the depth. We can't call on VDM or Botha or Afoa.

LordDowlais wrote:Actually stag I think Gethin was about 23/24 years of age 7 years ago. So yes I can compare them at the same ages.

Thought Gethin was 32. No biggie

As I said Gethin is an exceptional player and not quite matching up to him is not that bad. If Healy gets to be 80% as good as Gethin was then I'll be chuffed.

red_stag wrote:Dowlais,

Why does he have to be either a world beater or a nobody. Can he not simply be an international standard player.

As you correctly say the real issue was that Ireland dont have the depth. We can't call on VDM or Botha or Afoa.

Nothing wrong with that at all stag, all I am saying is if you want compare him with someone, he should be at least at the same level as them, after all I did not bring any Welsh players into this debate. Also I did not mention anything about Ireland's strength in depth, who's to say you will not unearth a gem within the next few seasons.