Irish and Welsh contrast?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

rodders wrote:Gatland.

Also Robbie Deans and Stuart Lancaster.Oh and just for giggles Mad Marc Lievremont.

I have found this thread mildly amusing

thebluesmancometh wrote:In all fairness I am partly on the wind up...

But being serious, the scrum is not a 1 man show. It's 8 men, it's the hit, it's the chase, it's the then jockey for position.

Can anyone tell me who the hit is initiated by?
Can anyone tell me who is the controller of the scrum?
Can anyone tell me the most important part of the scrum?
Can anyone tell me what the scrum is meant to do?

Not being patronising boys, well I am but it is to prove a point. You all seem to think the scrum is still about the TH being the rock and LH attacking the opposition, that mentality went out nearly a decade ago.

I guarentee you that Jon Hayes, Buckley and co were as strong as any prop on the planet, well I know they were because I saw training sessions with them, but they couldn't scrummage.

I like Kidney, as I did O Sullivan, and Gatland before that, and so did you lot when things were going right, GS under your belt things were looking good, except they weren't.

Now key players are missing, or should I say old, there are huge gaps in the Ireland side that just cannot be filled. You cannot throw a teenage, or early 20's prop into international rugby, infact a lot of props in their mid 20's aren't capable enough yet. They need time to fully mature, ensure they're physically up to scratch and won't get physically or psychologically scarred.

You can play LH's at TH, you can play Hookers at tight head if need be, at international level where there is huge pressure to win every single game, and after Irelands GS and undefeated year every game well you can't afford an inexperienced prop on the bench!!!

Kidney is a little carefull in his selection, but so is every coach at international level, name me one that isn't???

All this is a long winded way of avoiding my question.What games did N.Z. and S.A. take our scrum apart,don't just show me one isolated scrum give me a game with the date it was played.

You can't do that because it doesn't exist.

I am fed up with it now.

Lancaster

Now we're talking, took the job on as caretaker, pressure free from a dismal WC (on and off the pitch). Was brought in for his authoritarian mode.

He spent his first few weeks eleviating pressure and downplaying Englands chances, set a goal of 2 wins.

Brought in a number of younger players on a prayer of him getting the job...

Corbs - wasn't he already showing signs on the int stage? and who exactly was going to challenge him for that shirt?

Botha - not exactly a youngster, but there were no fit locks available.

Robshaw??? really?

Oh ye Dowson. The clubman who was showing half of the form of Morgan - safe pick.

Hodgson has to be the most inspiring pick of Lancasters term to date, old reliable.

Tuilagi already acted the goat at the WC, and the Hape went awol, so Baritt was pretty much the only centre left standing, and Farell was again left to choice by default.

And the fresh on form electric back 3 of mr no trys in the AP that season till then Ashton, Strettle and Foden (armitage being punished)

So no Lancaster does not certainly take risks...

NEXT

In all fairness I am partly on the wind up..

I said it mate, now answer mine!!!

Lievremont I will give you, and where did that leave him?

thebluesmancometh wrote:In all fairness I am partly on the wind up..

I said it mate, now answer mine!!!

Is this aimed at me?If you're on the wind up then why would I bother you're obviously just going to dismiss anything by making up more rubbish arguments which when I show them to be wrong you'll again just say ah mate I'm only on the wind up.

If you can't compete mate save your breath!!!

Your arguing the Irish scrum is good, it's not, that is a given.

Now answer my questions...

thebluesmancometh wrote:If you can't compete mate save your breath!!!

Your arguing the Irish scrum is good, it's not, that is a given.

Now answer my questions...

Lol no I'm not,I'm arguing that except for the England game it hasn't been taken apart since Ross has started playing and even managed to compete before then.You're saying it was taken apart by Wales,N.Z. and S.A. yet refuse to name the games where this happened.Answer my questions and I'll answer yours otherwise save your breath.

Lets see how good it is shall we?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJd7gQnKglM

Ive managed to argue with evrey one here but you have bored me back onto Declanm Kidney.. of which I am still waiting for replies!!!

Lol avoiding the question again,I'll just take that as an admission of defeat.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Victory is sweet

Well done, you 'won' an internet arguement. Visit your Village Elder to collect your prize turnip

Victory

How would you know?! Your arguing for the Irish scrum, victory is not a word that will ever be used...

thebluesmancometh wrote:Victory

How would you know?! Your arguing for the Irish scrum, victory is not a word that will ever be used...

Lol you're avoiding arguing against it

Thats what she said!

Damn it man I didn't realise there was a prize turnip!

munkian wrote:Well done, you 'won' an internet arguement. Visit your Village Elder to collect your prize turnip

I'm from Leinster,turnips are for Munster men.Our elders hand out chinos and mocha frappalattes from Starbocks roysh.

Don't ask me why, but since turned onto one I am all about the Ross O carroll Kelly series!!

I just think if Ireland had these players in their ranks then they would perform as well as the Provinces:

Botha, Howlett, Mafi, Nacewa, Thorn, Afoa, Wannenberg, Ruan Pienaar

RubyGuby wrote:I just think if Ireland had these players in their ranks then they would perform as well as the Provinces:

Botha, Howlett, Mafi, Nacewa, Thorn, Afoa, Wannenberg, Ruan Pienaar

I think if Wales had those players then they would perform as well as our provinces too.... .....

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I just think if Ireland had these players in their ranks then they would perform as well as the Provinces:

Botha, Howlett, Mafi, Nacewa, Thorn, Afoa, Wannenberg, Ruan Pienaar

I think if Wales had those players then they would perform as well as our provinces too.... .....

I hope not

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

munkian wrote:Well done, you 'won' an internet arguement. Visit your Village Elder to collect your prize turnip

I'm from Leinster,turnips are for Munster men.Our elders hand out chinos and mocha frappalattes from Starbocks roysh.

Loike Totes

You can wot eat them turnips though.................. so they are better for digging than them black things called coal

It's all very well having a fire but you're still cooked (to use a well placed metaphor) if you've nothing to put in the boiling pot.

munkian wrote:Well done, you 'won' an internet arguement. Visit your Village Elder to collect your prize turnip

Ahem - I was the first one to answer correctly, so where do I get my turnip?

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I just think if Ireland had these players in their ranks then they would perform as well as the Provinces:

Botha, Howlett, Mafi, Nacewa, Thorn, Afoa, Wannenberg, Ruan Pienaar

I think if Wales had those players then they would perform as well as our provinces too.... .....

No one province has that many top imports. Those players would improve the team for sure, but would they change the selection policies or the tactics? No, of course not.

This thread may have run its course, but one thing I want to reply to is this notion that irish supporters jump on their coaches when they don't succeed. I think gatland is the only coach that has any bearing on.. O'sullivan was a tactical genius, but he created a team of 17 players. That was a system that could only last so long and when results inevitably dropped and the cupboard of available players was bare, then o'sullivan's top down approach was called for what it was and a change was needed. Then Deccie comes in, the perfect man for the job.. Heals the provisional rifts & has a golden first season. But we played some terrible rugby, tho the ELVs made this terrible rugby winning rugby (watch the grand slam games, some are just so horrible to watch).. And after supporting dec until this 6 nations, its clear to nearly all irish supporters, deccie is out of place, out of time. Maybe the welsh on here are right, our players are not up to it, too many imports ruining the irish grown talent etc etc (tho I think that's all muck) but we have no idea if that's the case when we play the old elv way. Deccie is a fantastic coach & would turn around many a country or club.. But not ireland, not now. I'm a connacht supporter so I always feel a bit distant from the provincional bickering, but let's try the leinster loop with the best irish players from all our provinces.. We do not even have a backs coach! I'm just so sad at irish international rugby, for every australia and '11 england game, there's rwc wales and '12 england game. Sad for the bewildered looks on our players faces as they try to make a broken system work. It won't, it can't; the world has moved on.

"one thing I want to reply to is this notion that irish supporters jump on their coaches when they don't succeed."

Some Irish fella just wrote "thank God that was Tony McGhan's last game in charge of Munster" in reference to Fridays game

Wow Ruby, can't argue with that... logic.

Re: Ospreys v Munster Pro12 Semi Final match thread
by profitius on Fri 11 May 2012 - 23:55

.On a positive note, it was Tony McGahans last game in charge. .
profitius


Posts: 162
Join date: 2012-01-25



Wolf - it seems a lot of your fans want Declan out or see him as the main problem due to his tactics - Ireland remain in transition after having a great decade

My 2c after reading some of the carp on this thread (apologies if any of this has been mentioned, im not reading back through that)

Ireland

im not irish, and the one thing I'd suggest Ireland need to do is get some fresh impetus from the coaching staff, whether that be tweaking their style of play, bringing in some fresh faces who can implement their current gameplan or bringing in someone who can motivate the players, POC isnt going to be there forever.

Also, there is a number of philosophies about how the game is played across the Irish provinces, there isnt a set coherent gameplan at test level that they all naturally pull towards as a backline. When the backline was settled this wasnt so much a problem, but now you're going to be missing your midfield, thats a pretty massive thing when its such an established partnership with a good relationship. They've been poor, and its no coincidence the backlines generally been poor since the midfield has. Bowe and his antics aside which were generally of his own making.

No doubt the NIQ's help their provinces acheieve what they have, but thats the whole point of introducing foreign talent into your team, the irish provinces are a lot better at recognising what their team needs from an outsider and bringing in quality than compared to the welsh regions. The front 5 isnt great at international level, but it can hold its own usually and garner enough ball for the team to compete.

The golden generation is coming to an end also, whether you like it or not, theres a lot of players who have dragged Ireland with them over the last 10 years when things havent been going well, or who have been there and Ireland neednt worry. All of a sudden without POC, the 2nd row is weak IMO, especially for Irish lock-pairing. Theres no Bull at tighthead, if theres an injury to Ross, well we saw the english game in the 6n. The backrow is strong, although Heaslip needs to be dropped so he can pull his finger out. I've already mentioned Darcy/BOD. Thats a huge amount of test exposure and quality to lose for any team in world rugby.

Wales

The welsh regions all try to play with quick backlines with a 1/2 bigmen in the backline to punch holes and hold the defensive line. They all seem to also work on the 2 pass and go principle when it comes to turnovers. The historic "welsh way" of rugby, however romanticised, is a real thing in regards to high-paced running rugby. Gatlands managed to get everyone involved in the WRU/regions starting to sing off the same hymn-sheet. That running game added to how well Gatlands & co have got the team defending is why Wales are doing so well now. They've got a big abrasive front 5 (a la ospreys), execellant defensively mobile backrow (a la Dragons), a physical and creative threat from the halfbacks (Phillips & The priest) and a backline full of youngsters who love to run the ball, are all phyisically imposing (bar halfpenny perhaps) and all have the same basic principles ingrained in their heads from academy level.

Wales are starting to see the benefits of the regions, as soon as the regions get some top-level coacing in, they themselves will start to see the benefits too.

Conclusion

Ireland are in a period of transition, Wales have been since regionalism was introduced and are now starting to emerge in the professional error with their new generation coming through. Ireland must now start looking to their younger generation and find a way to get them hard for test rugby aswell as their provinces.

Very good post Comfort. Spot on there with most of that sir.

cheers rodders.

and thats the end of that chapter...

now we can all get back to arguing about the really important things:

Earls at 13
Peoples mothers
Refereeing decisions from 12 years ago

BOOM! everyones a winner

I think Earls mother was a ref about 12 years ago

that would it explain it all!