Irish and Welsh contrast?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

thebluesmancometh wrote:rodders

Lets see whos carrying who's kitbag next year for the lions shall we?

Aw sure we're all the same when we are wearing our Lions shirts

We are if the teams full of welshmen...

LordDowlais wrote:

You obviously have not watched many Dragons games then, where Faletau has been having numerous MOM awards even when on the loosing side, I have watched him make thirty and forty yard breaks, I tell you the boy is quick for a teenager. Also, the Dragons have far from a big set of backs to accomodate him.

You know, I was REALLY hoping someone would bring up Faletau's performances for the Dragons. What is it you have been saying this entire thread about the irish players performing differently for their provinces but not internationally? And how that means our players aren't as good, it is the foreigners we sign, or international games are one step up etc. But of course, when Faletau performs excellently for the dragons, but not so much for his country, none of that applies to him.

thebluesmancometh wrote:rodders

Lets see whos carrying who's kitbag next year for the lions shall we?

Rory

I saw all of Ferris's tackles, I liked the one in particular that allowed 1/2p to slot it over for the game, thats a huge error under pressure!

You are right, the likes of Roberts, North and Cuthbert help the back row out, but if Ireland aren't clever enough to do similar who's problem is this? The game is ever changing, and if teams and players don't keep up they fall behind!

Plus I think your underestimating Lydiate, he is partly the reason Warbs has the licence to go looking for the ball, if Ferris was at 6 Warbs would have to be more conservative!!!

And who is in charge of selecting the teams and deciding what game plan the irish play? There is your answer. Ireland do not play to the strengths of the players. Thank you for realising what many of your welsh friends do not!

International rugby is a step up again from Heineken cup rugby. The welsh team, just like the French and English team is much stronger in terms of personnel than the teams that these countries enter into the Heineken cup. The opposite is almost the case with Ireland due to the likes of ica nacewa, brad thorn, Ryan pieenar playing such pivotal roles for the provinces.

Total agree, that Ryan Pieenar is some player!

Scrumdown wrote:International rugby is a step up again from Heineken cup rugby. The welsh team, just like the French and English team is much stronger in terms of personnel than the teams that these countries enter into the Heineken cup. The opposite is almost the case with Ireland due to the likes of ica nacewa, brad thorn, Ryan pieenar playing such pivotal roles for the provinces.

I would never deny that Pienaar is pivotal to Ulster currently. I am happy to admit that. But you do realise you are clearly trying to pull whatever names out of the hat you can? How many games has Thorn played in the HEC for Leinster? Or overall in either competition? Also, you do realise that Nacewa, a fullback, has been shifted to wing because of an irish player who is one of the worlds best there?

What about the replacement props who helped shore up the scrum against clermont? Leinster have more propping talent than the whole of Ireland which is absurd!

Scrumdown wrote:What about the replacement props who helped shore up the scrum against clermont? Leinster have more propping talent than the whole of Ireland which is absurd!

The one NIQ prop who came on for Healy you mean? Healy is still first choice. Keep grabbing at those foreign names. Running out yet? Out of interest, what club do you support? How many foreigners play for them?

Besides, no irish fan would disagree with you that we are weak at prop.

What about Munster signing casey laulala just as Ireland are looking for a replacement for brian odriscoll.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

You obviously have not watched many Dragons games then, where Faletau has been having numerous MOM awards even when on the loosing side, I have watched him make thirty and forty yard breaks, I tell you the boy is quick for a teenager. Also, the Dragons have far from a big set of backs to accomodate him.

You know, I was REALLY hoping someone would bring up Faletau's performances for the Dragons. What is it you have been saying this entire thread about the irish players performing differently for their provinces but not internationally? And how that means our players aren't as good, it is the foreigners we sign, or international games are one step up etc. But of course, when Faletau performs excellently for the dragons, but not so much for his country, none of that applies to him.

What are you on about ? I am saying he plays the same for Wales as he does for the Dragons, he always makes the step up, there are more people raving about him for Wales than there are for the Dragons though, and for the record most of the Dragons NWQ players are rubbish.

Scrumdown crudely makes a good point, issues that are rectified at provincial level to compete on both fronts have affected the national side.#

I know this happens elsewhere but without the kind of budgets of Leinster and Munster we have accidentally had to fill places with youngsters... Cuthbert, Falatau and 1/2p were given their shots because of lack of aoptions opposed to on merit.

Kidney is a good coach, he can't hold the players hands on field. They have to take some responsibility themselves.

Many people are blaming the coaching at international level for Irelands underperformance there. But is it not true that current Welsh coach Gatland had an unsuccessful stint there? Was Irelands grievance under the O'Suulivan stewardship not the same? Blame the coach, but not the players?

It reminds me of the England national team. No matter how many coaches come and go and no matter what kind of success they have elsewhere, not much has changed since 1966. The manager is continously blamed for failure, but perhaps the problems lay elsewhere or with the players?

Scrumdown wrote:What about Munster signing casey laulala just as Ireland are looking for a replacement for brian odriscoll.

Oh well will just have to be one of Cave, Spence, O'Malley, Griffin, Barnes or even McFadden won't it. The only 13 Laulala will block is Earls who many don't think is going to cut it as a 13 anyway.

bluesman - "Kidney is a good coach"

Doesn't Barnes play the same position as laulala?!

Gordy wrote:Many people are blaming the coaching at international level for Irelands underperformance there. But is it not true that current Welsh coach Gatland had an unsuccessful stint there? Was Irelands grievance under the O'Suulivan stewardship not the same? Blame the coach, but not the players?

It reminds me of the England national team. No matter how many coaches come and go and no matter what kind of success they have elsewhere, not much has changed since 1966. The manager is continously blamed for failure, but perhaps the problems lay elsewhere or with the players?

If Ireland werent playing such a clueless diabolically uninventive game that centre's around up and unders there might be a case against the players - realistically our players are as good as any of the other 6N teams but the game plan they are being told to play and the quality of the coaching is so abysmal that its laughable. As pointed out above, why did Wales get so much better when Gatland took over from Gareth Jenkins if coaching is not the issue but players are.

Not sure whats so funny Artfull, he's won HC's and a GS. He succesfully turned SH teams over, and employed a number of very succesfull tactics, some of which are emulated all over the world!

If thats your list of possibles then your going to struggle for a little while, a few possible good players in there but none stand out head and shoulders, and all would need to be introduced over a number of seasons to the NT.

Dodger

So is it kidneys fault there is no ball fetching 7 in Ireland???

Is it kidneys fault that no midfield players are able to cut the mustard???

Is it Kidneys fault that his props cannot compete in the scrum???

Most of Irelands problems need to be rectified for Kidney to be succesfull, he can't avoid a missed one on one tackle, he can't avoid a prop not being strong or gifted enough to steady a scrum, he cannot avoid playing ball carriers at 7, as Mallet couldn't avoid not having a backline with Italian blood!

Another criticism of Kidney as a coach - refusal to bring new players into the setup, Cave is an outstanding 13 and will go head to head with O'Driscoll in the HC final - can't wait.

Kidneys plan for 13 is Keith Earls - poor decision he doesn't cut it at 13 and is much better on the wing, chances of Kidney going with anyone other than Earls now are fairly remote however.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Dodger

So is it kidneys fault there is no ball fetching 7 in Ireland???

Is it kidneys fault that no midfield players are able to cut the mustard???

Is it Kidneys fault that his props cannot compete in the scrum???

Most of Irelands problems need to be rectified for Kidney to be succesfull, he can't avoid a missed one on one tackle, he can't avoid a prop not being strong or gifted enough to steady a scrum, he cannot avoid playing ball carriers at 7, as Mallet couldn't avoid not having a backline with Italian blood!

Not Kidneys fault theres no ball-fetching 7, but I don't see how its the players fault either. Tommy O'Donnell however looks promising for the future. Yes it is Kidneys fault that the midfield players arent good enough - outright refusal to drop a terribly out of form D'Arcy, wrong choice at 13 to replace O'Driscoll (Earls) and our props can compete in the scrum just not when we have an average loosehead playing at tighthead.

Because Earls is an established international player. It's easy to say why don't you try X, because you don't have the pressure on your job being on the line if you rush X in!!!

Cave is not ready for international rugby, Trimble has all but failed, Mcfadden has learnt a few valuable lessons recently, Earls is struggling... But Ireland has the players don't you?! Kidney is trying things out, but you can't just throw players in and hope they come good.

PS scrummaging wise you have an average loosehead playing at tighthead, an average loosehead playing at loosehead and an average loosehead playing at hooker.

Kidney can only do so much with the gaping holes that are there.

Oh please bluesman - you beat us by 2 points with a last minute penalty that saw Wayne Barnes demoted out of the IRB elite panel, I think your just starting to wum now.

What are you talking about an average loosehead playing at hooker??

Trimble has all but failed - he's a winger not a centre mate.

Kidney is trying things - Earls at 13 is the only thing he has tried and that was forced by an injury to O'Driscoll, he is still trying to play the game he played under the old rules and its not working.

Firstly the scrum was destroyed, the midfield hammered while on your own turf while we were missing 6 starters +...

Your front row in the scrum is very average, despite very strong locks.

Trimble, Mcfadden and Earls have all played 13 in the last few seasons, not to mention BOD. How many other nations have tried 4 players in one position recently. Infact isn't Bowe going to get a shout at the shirt soon too? Trimble has been found wanting in every position he's played for Ireland.

But fool yourself into thinking it was all the refs fault, what about the 2 games before that? both the ref again?

Pointing out facts isn't WUMing. Ireland have a huge problem at TH, HK, 7, 9, and 13, starters being over the hill or clubmen.

Trimble hasn't played 13 in a very long time, so you are off that he has been tried there in the last few seasons. Weak at hooker? I think Rory Best is the best hooker in Europe and will be starting for the Lions next year and he's certainly not weak in the scrum, its his strongest facet of play.

Maybe you should worry more about whats going happen to your region next season (your going to get hammered by everyone) rather than focus on Irish rugby's problems.

Declan kidney is in a different league to Gareth Jenkins andwould be snapped up by any ambitious club. If he wasn't coaching Ireland then he'd still be winning heineken cups for Munster.

RubyGuby wrote:Kearney is playing well for Ireland because he's class, - it's not a case of "the other players not being in the same type of form", they are not as good.

Yes he's playing well for Ireland because he's class but he's still playing negative rugby,for Leinster he's playing well because he's class but he's also playing attacking,positive rugby.The difference for me is clear with Ireland he's being told to play conservative safety first rugby.

Some people have made the point that Irish provinces owe alot of their success to foreign imports. Especially in areas that they are weak on a national level. Could it be said that the success of the Irish provinces with their foreign flavour has perhaps placed too great an expectation on the national side which cannot rely on foreign imports to plug the gaps?

region next season (your going to get hammered by everyone) rather than focus on Irish rugby's problems.

WOW youve really let yourself down now!!! Should I really focus on the Blues problems while talking on a thread discussing the DIFFERENCES BETWEEN IRELAND AND WALES?????

Shoulder

your right there, Ireland are playing negative rugby, but in general so are all the international teams, the differences in quality is less, and you are punished for playing attractive rugby at the top table. Plus at Leinster Kearney is in a superior team to most, playing with confidence, whereas for Ireland he's playing in an average team with issues other teams don't have.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Dodger


Most of Irelands problems need to be rectified for Kidney to be succesfull, he can't avoid a missed one on one tackle, he can't avoid a prop not being strong or gifted enough to steady a scrum, he cannot avoid playing ball carriers at 7, as Mallet couldn't avoid not having a backline with Italian blood!

Kidney may not be able to avoid a missed one on one tackle but maybe he could have ensured our team didn't play a passive defense which allowed the quick and powerful Welsh backs to build up a head of steam before being tackled.

Since Kidney has taken over there has only been one game where our scrum was mangled so that doesn't count as an excuse for his last 2 years of underachievement and Ireland managed with David Wallace at 7 despite him not being a fetcher.


Kidney has failed and will continue to fail until he is let go at the end of his contract,if we get a decent coach to replace him I'm quite comfortable in saying Ireland will be back challenging at the top of the NH game again.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ireland are playing negative rugby, but in general so are all the international teams, the differences in quality is less, and you are punished for playing attractive rugby at the top table.

I disagree

2009
Super Rugby holders: Bulls
Tri-nations holders: South Africa
Heineken Cup holders: Leinster (played tight forward oriented rugby that year under Cheika)
6 Nations holders: Ireland
RWC holders: South Africa

The teams that kicked most and passed less were successful. Attacking play was deemed to risky due to the old tackle interpretations and the teams that did negative rugby best were successful. Kidney was successful this year.

2012
Super Rugby holders: Queensland Reds
Tri-nations holders: Australia
Heineken Cup holders: Leinster
6 Nations holders: Wales
RWC holders: New Zealand

Reds, Australia, Leinster and New Zealand are all particularly noted for the quality of their play with ball in hand. Wales are notable for their strong defence and quality kicking game but they are also, as usual for Wales, very good at running rugby. Under the new tackle interpretations good attacking rugby is very much rewarded. The best form of defence is attack. Teams like South Africa and Ireland who haven't adapted have fallen behind. Kidney hasn't adapted. Results have gotten worse. He's gone further into his defensive shell and become very conservative and risk averse with selections as well as tactics. His time is up. It was up in 2010.

Ireland don't have the players to win playing Kidneys rugby. The provinces suggest to me that they would be more successful playing a different brand of rugby. The opposite brand to Kidneys actually. That's why I, and most Irish fans see him as the problem.

I think some people are just on the WUM now. I am done with this topic. I think I gave up when I read about Laulala being signed when BOD is needing replaced, when 13 is one position where we may have the most talent coming through..

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Kearney is playing well for Ireland because he's class, - it's not a case of "the other players not being in the same type of form", they are not as good.

Yes he's playing well for Ireland because he's class but he's still playing negative rugby,for Leinster he's playing well because he's class but he's also playing attacking,positive rugby.The difference for me is clear with Ireland he's being told to play conservative safety first rugby.

Kearney is MUCH more conservative when playing for Ireland. He doesn't take the risks he does with Leinster.

I have to agree with you your defence was rather passive, but Defences aren't coached to be passive trust me. They generally have 2 styles to perform, they are coached to blitz when the ball is out wide and drift when the ball is central. Noone coaches one defence type any more, it's about reading a situation and making a decision on the park, the defence was never going to be told to always blitz because that plays into Wales hands, the kick and big line chase, the pack wouldve died 60 mins in!! They were playing a controlled defence to devour the big runners up the middle with numbers to avoid the one on one tackling in wider channels, players were told to keep tight as Wales werent going to go wide very often, but they were overwhelmed and became hesitant. That isn't just Kidneys fault.

Plus we took your scrum apart, as did England, and SA and NZ have done it in recent times.

Kidney has not under acheived, he won a GS, that is a massive over acheivement for Ireland in general, and your 2nd???

I'd say the success of your provinces has pushed expectation way above what this Irish team is capable of, lets be brutally honest, Ireland have had 2 world class players in the last few seasons BOD and POC. There have been some very good players but I always put a player by who would make a world VX or start for NZ.

Of the current squad, Kearney is looking very good, Bowe plays very well in patches, Sexton looks better when his team is totally dominant IE for Leinster, Heaslip is lacking form, SOB, Mahony, and arguably Ferris need other options to their game, and they are Irelands best. A regular 3rd place finish sounds about right for their current team. There are just too many gaping holes at the minute!

Oh don't get me started on Wales, we'll be here all night!

Rogue you make very good points there fair play.

But I will say that although those teams are known for their ball in hand play, NZ were very cagey at the WC and won it by being very defence minded, as France were V Wales, As Ireland did V Australia, as France were V just about everyone.
Leinsters game is actually quite simple, solid defence, and when you turn around their defence they don't get to reset, you pick up the pace and keep that ball moving, almost a counter attack style.
The Reds are just Cooper + some, he can be sublime and win games, although can be a donkey too.

But I really was talking international rugby only, where the stakes are higher, risks higher, and rewards higher. Leinsters gameplan for Ireland wouldn't work IMO.

Rory although scrum was crude he made a good point, Laulala has been signed because Munster are struggling there, and Ireland have a huge hole in midfield at present. You can name your upcoming superstars all you like but until they make an impact it means nothing. Spence and Cave have been good at club level but lets see if they can step up.
Also Ireland are nowhere near as dominant on the international stage as Leinster are at club level, of course kearney needs to be more conservative, taking risks gets punished so much more at international level.

O'Brien, O'Mahony and Ferris have a LOT more to their games than any of the welsh backrow, from what I have witnessed so far. Warburton is better than all 3 at the breakdown however. Apart from that, what else do those guys need to add to their games? They are the complete backrowers IMO. I wouldn't trade any of them for any of the welsh backrow.

As for pushing expectations, do you think Leinster would be better than the current Ireland team? I think anyone with a brain would say yes, they are clearly the better team. With that in mind, why do you think they are better? Back to the foreign legion comments again?

How did scrumdown make a good point? Does BOD play for Munster? First I've heard. Taking risks at international level is exactly what the likes of France, Australia, New Zealand all do. They have the support players, the pace at the breakdown, and the skills to play that type of game. So does Leinster. So does Ireland, potentially. With our current way of playing, our midfield (or team in general) will never make an impact no matter who we pick, as you say.

Firstly I can think of something your complete back rowers need...

UNITY!!!!

You have built these players up who in part have now come unstuck against their welsh counterparts the last 3 times out!!!

I think you mean anyone with half a brain would know Leinster couldn't field a team against Ireland!!

And as I said the Leinster gameplan works very well with that huge squad they have. Not just foreign players, but with the advantages they have to keep their homegrown stars too. They have a very large very expensive squad in comparison to a lot of teams, they have a very high number of international players, and play a clever brand of rugby. Lets be honest the Rabo is more a squad competition than a best team comp.

I didn't ask if they could field a team against Ireland. I asked would they perform better than Ireland. The clear answer is yes. As for having a huge squad, the majority of that squad is irish.. plus they are top of the rabo and HEC finalists.

Rory

Who says BOD played for Munster? noone! But if there are gaping holes in midfield the last thing you want is one club keeping with BOD as much as possible and another buying in centres, the idea is all the clubs develop an international option. (well in a perfect world)

3 times out Ireland have lost against Wales, but only one of those games did you actually play Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau, the backrow that is apparently miles better than the irish one. In fact, that gives more bulk to my theory as to why the welsh backrow is working for them. The big running welsh backs give so much go forward ball, that the backrow has much less work to do. That is the welsh game plan. They play to their strengths.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rory

Who says BOD played for Munster? noone! But if there are gaping holes in midfield the last thing you want is one club keeping with BOD as much as possible and another buying in centres, the idea is all the clubs develop an international option. (well in a perfect world)

There are plenty of options at all 4 provinces at 13 actually. You said scrumdown made a good point about Munster signing Laulala when Ireland are looking for a replacement for BOD. What has that got to do with BOD when there are 3 other provinces with IQ 13s?

Yes Rory, because of their huge squad, more players = more options for player development, plus the development team to help with that.

The theory is the more players you expose to top level rugby the more experience they'll gain and the more chance of them progressing into the first team.

Also mate do you really think international teams take risks? NZ certainly don't, infact they generally hold players on the fringes till they are busting at the seems to get on the park, they make those players really work for their jersey and they are given a proper route into international rugby, it's why they rarely have flops.

Name me 1 international quality 13 behind BOD.

Have we worked this one out yet guys? ....

I think Rory needs some help rodders...

I think hes not the only one.....

I meant with my question funny guy!

LordDowlais wrote:

What are you on about ? I am saying he plays the same for Wales as he does for the Dragons, he always makes the step up, there are more people raving about him for Wales than there are for the Dragons though, and for the record most of the Dragons NWQ players are rubbish.

Faletau plays a different game for Wales than he does for the Dragons, I think that is quite clear. Here you are saying he plays the same for the Dragons as he does for Wales, yet in the previous post you tell me I need to watch him play for the Dragons more to see how good he is.. Contradicting yourself much?

Faletau carries the ball much more for the Dragons and makes a bigger impact in the loose. For Wales, like the rest of the backrow, he plays a more defensive orientated game because the backs do so much heavy carrying. I do not think he was nearly as effective as Denton, Morgan, Parisse, Harinordoquy or Picamoles this 6 nations. I would rather see him play the type of game he plays for the Dragons, and see him play that exciting, expansive offloading game that I have seen he is capable of for the Dragons.

See what I am saying? That is exactly the problem with the irish players. None of them play the type of game they do for their province, they do not play to their strengths (though to be fair, Faletau is a very good defender too). If you still don't get what I am saying, I don't know how I can put it any clearer.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Name me 1 international quality 13 behind BOD.

Seriously? For a start, I don't see the point as you will disregard the players immediately. You saw one playing during the 6 nations who did a good job. You will see another in the HEC final, who has been fantastic. You have potentially brilliant 13s in Spence, O'Malley, Griffin. I don't see why I should even bother listing these guys though, as you will simply not accept their talent.