Irish and Welsh contrast?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

I can tell you now in no uncertain terms, that Ferris and O'Brien are nowhere near as good as David Wallace, David Wallace was a human wrecking ball and would win games all on his own, the other two are not fit to lace his boots.

You forget to mention that your back row are individually the best in the NH, combo wise they struggle to compete with the Welsh back row!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Who's had an armchair ride by their front row? The welsh back row?

Really, becuase Jones and Rees are huge around the feild? Jenkins and Davies provide the go forward, along with Falatau and Lydiate, the difference is there is little go forward by the Irish pack/Centres when you take the back row out of the carrying stats.

To answer the OP's question, you really have to look at the regional model in Wales, no real boundaries, a lot of fans disconnected, too many arguing businessmen wanting to get their way and noone has the cahunas to stand up and do whats right for the good of the country! Most regions are young and full of players who still feel like their clubmen, yet welshmen!

Welsh players arent bad at club level they just don't connect to the regions as do the fans!

This.

rodders wrote:Its the tactics more than the players Ruby. Theres 2 or 3 top sides we could put out. Right now I'd go for something like:

15 Kearney
14 Kearney Jr
13 O'Driscoll
12 McFadden
11 Fitzgerald/ Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 O'Mahoney
6 Ferris
7 O'Brien
5 Ryan
4 O'Connell /Tuohy
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Court, Cronin, Touhy/Toner, Heaslip, Boss, Madigan, Earls

Coach: Joe Schmidt

Nice side Rodders, i would have liked to have seen Ireland experiment with Bowe in the centre alongside BOD, he's a great footbaler and distributor - Young Kearney also look a class act. 9 is a weak spot for you guys, not sure why there must be better options, Murray just doesn't live up to his hype and Reddan is average. Glad to see you've benched Heaslip - He seems to be going through a Ryan Jones type crisis at the moment - Ryan apears to be through his thankfully. The coach as you say is key - Ireland need to get their mojo back and play like 15 wild banshees who just want to go out there and run everything at ya in a murderous fashion - feck to the tactics bring on the old Lansdowne Ireland and we'd all be in the shoite a la the England game 2011

Also the big guys in the back line, well Tommy Bowe, are hardly looking for work are they? The game has changed and every player on the field has to contribute to team goals, not individual goals. Therefore a 6'4 monster like Bowe should be hitting blind sides at 100mph, giving Sexton an inside option constantly and helping the 2 old men in midfield.

LordDowlais wrote:We have Halfpenny playing wing and fullback and still does a decent job. We swap our centers around different to where the regions play them and they do allright. I just think that the Irish supporters think that their Irish players are actually better than they are.

You base your opinions of 'regional class' players on International form but you evade evaluating 'International' standard players on the quality of their regional form. You don't round your arguments, Lord.

Ireland has proven two things. They have Provincial players that can mix it with, and often get the better of, the best club players in France and England PLUS their more than fair share of nice foreigners who come in from other International sides to shore up the 'quality'. Irish Provinces have proven they can match and out-match the best at this level. It's not a once off and it has never relied on (as distinct from 'benefitted from') individual foreign players (these individuals came, they went and the results still kept coming). We agree on that bit? Of course we do, it's up in writing on the HC honours list (team acheivements AND personal player records)

The second thing Ireland has proven is that Provincial form of players does not transmit to International. Correct - we all know that, we all debate it here in Ireland. It's not a puzzle we haven't meditated on.
Maybe the suggestion is coz this here Provincial malarky and HC rubbish isn't International standard - meaning our Provincial lords realise they are just average when the hit the international circuit, where all the truly 'world class' big boys live. Is that the reasoning?

Well: this Provincial malarky is good enough to be habitually the best (or near being the best) in the Pro12 league (where all the juicy Welsh and Scots internationals hold out). This Provincial malarky is good enough to habitually better the clubs from the AP (where all the juicy English internationals hold out). And this Provincial malarky is good enough to habitually better the clubs from the Top14 (where all the super-skilled French internationals hang out).

Irish International has a problem but from here on in I'm going to ignore arguments delivered by outsiders who refuse to admit that coaches get paid to work and can often stifle the growth of club/Province/Region and Country Go ask the 'International' class Welsh players about coaching or lack thereof at regional level - and what impact it can have on the disparity in form between regional and International.

No offence Ruby but there are way too many flaws in that team for it to be succesfull.

No scrummaging power, without POC the lineout will suffer, and there is no balance/guile in the backrow. Where are the turnovers coming from? without the stupid hold and scream at the ref for a scrum they will lose!!!

Also with an average 9 offering no threat around the fringes, and that shocking midfield combo where are line breaks coming from. Kearney and Zebo look promising but they both have question marks over their defence, and with BOD's lack of pace inside them it'll only compount the issue!!!

Fly

Once again your wrong mate. These welsh players rarely play Rabo games, and HC they do ok when all fit and fine. Blues O's qualify regularly.

The problems at the regions is they cannot spend like the Irish teams can, and do not have the benefit of tax breaks, feeder/development club, or a capitol city that hold the population nearly of Wales!

Also the regions are 10 years old, with no history. The politics of welsh rugby mate elude you so I'd stick to what you know... Irish international issues.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:We have Halfpenny playing wing and fullback and still does a decent job. We swap our centers around different to where the regions play them and they do allright. I just think that the Irish supporters think that their Irish players are actually better than they are.

You base your opinions of 'regional class' players on International form but you evade evaluating 'International' standard players on the quality of their regional form. You don't round your arguments, Lord.

Ireland has proven two things. They have Provincial players that can mix it with, and often get the better of, the best club players in France and England PLUS their more than fair share of nice foreigners who come in from other International sides to shore up the 'quality'. Irish Provinces have proven they can match and out-match the best at this level. It's not a once off and it has never relied on (as distinct from 'benefitted from') individual foreign players (these individuals came, they went and the results still kept coming). We agree on that bit? Of course we do, it's up in writing on the HC honours list (team acheivements AND personal player records)

The second thing Ireland has proven is that Provincial form of players does not transmit to International. Correct - we all know that, we all debate it here in Ireland. It's not a puzzle we haven't meditated on.
Maybe the suggestion is coz this here Provincial malarky and HC rubbish isn't International standard - meaning our Provincial lords realise they are just average when the hit the international circuit, where all the truly 'world class' big boys live. Is that the reasoning?

Well: this Provincial malarky is good enough to be habitually the best (or near being the best) in the Pro12 league (where all the juicy Welsh and Scots internationals hold out). This Provincial malarky is good enough to habitually better the clubs from the AP (where all the juicy English internationals hold out). And this Provincial malarky is good enough to habitually better the clubs from the Top14 (where all the super-skilled French internationals hang out).

Irish International has a problem but from here on in I'm going to ignore arguments delivered by outsiders who refuse to admit that coaches get paid to work and can often stifle the growth of club/Province/Region and Country Go ask the 'International' class Welsh players about coaching or lack thereof at regional level - and what impact it can have on the disparity in form between regional and International.

Ireland do not have the goto men that the provinces have Theres your answer all in one sentence

thebluesmancometh wrote:No offence Ruby but there are way too many flaws in that team for it to be succesfull.

No scrummaging power, without POC the lineout will suffer, and there is no balance/guile in the backrow. Where are the turnovers coming from? without the stupid hold and scream at the ref for a scrum they will lose!!!

Also with an average 9 offering no threat around the fringes, and that shocking midfield combo where are line breaks coming from. Kearney and Zebo look promising but they both have question marks over their defence, and with BOD's lack of pace inside them it'll only compount the issue!!!

Theres so much nonsence there I can't be bothered.....

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

Once again your wrong mate. These welsh players rarely play Rabo games, and HC they do ok when all fit and fine. Blues O's qualify regularly.

The problems at the regions is they cannot spend like the Irish teams can, and do not have the benefit of tax breaks, feeder/development club, or a capitol city that hold the population nearly of Wales!

Also the regions are 10 years old, with no history. The politics of welsh rugby mate elude you so I'd stick to what you know... Irish international issues.

Yeah Blues - they're all better (the Welsh players) than their Irish counterparts but it's the money in their pockittses and the lack of B&W pics in the archives that stops them performing, on the field, in Pro12. I get you. I know nothing.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:We have Halfpenny playing wing and fullback and still does a decent job. We swap our centers around different to where the regions play them and they do allright. I just think that the Irish supporters think that their Irish players are actually better than they are.

You base your opinions of 'regional class' players on International form but you evade evaluating 'International' standard players on the quality of their regional form. You don't round your arguments, Lord.

Ireland has proven two things. They have Provincial players that can mix it with, and often get the better of, the best club players in France and England PLUS their more than fair share of nice foreigners who come in from other International sides to shore up the 'quality'. Irish Provinces have proven they can match and out-match the best at this level. It's not a once off and it has never relied on (as distinct from 'benefitted from') individual foreign players (these individuals came, they went and the results still kept coming). We agree on that bit? Of course we do, it's up in writing on the HC honours list (team acheivements AND personal player records)

The second thing Ireland has proven is that Provincial form of players does not transmit to International. Correct - we all know that, we all debate it here in Ireland. It's not a puzzle we haven't meditated on.
Maybe the suggestion is coz this here Provincial malarky and HC rubbish isn't International standard - meaning our Provincial lords realise they are just average when the hit the international circuit, where all the truly 'world class' big boys live. Is that the reasoning?

Well: this Provincial malarky is good enough to be habitually the best (or near being the best) in the Pro12 league (where all the juicy Welsh and Scots internationals hold out). This Provincial malarky is good enough to habitually better the clubs from the AP (where all the juicy English internationals hold out). And this Provincial malarky is good enough to habitually better the clubs from the Top14 (where all the super-skilled French internationals hang out).

Irish International has a problem but from here on in I'm going to ignore arguments delivered by outsiders who refuse to admit that coaches get paid to work and can often stifle the growth of club/Province/Region and Country Go ask the 'International' class Welsh players about coaching or lack thereof at regional level - and what impact it can have on the disparity in form between regional and International.

Ireland do not have the goto men that the provinces have Theres your answer all in one sentence

Evade the Coach issue and your comments continue to be meaningless. oh and

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

The problems at the regions is they cannot spend like the Irish teams can, and do not have the benefit of tax breaks, feeder/development club, or a capitol city that hold the population nearly of Wales!

Blimey! Wales isn't full of toddlers throwing oval ball rattles at their babysitters? Now there's a shock to the system. Wales do not breathe and drink rugby like we all get told when they win things. And meanwhile, in the Continent of Ireland - with our 650,000,000 people (30 million alone of them in Dublin city) the games of choice amongst the masses is still football and gaelic In short, not every citizen of Dublin is contracted to Leinster rugby.

Secretfly, I am not doing this with you again, but I will say this, for the last time, when the Irish players perform to the standard they do for their country like they do for their province's or vice versa then I will agree with you, but they do not even play to Declan Kidneys tactics with any enthusiasm, so although the tactics might be wrong, the effort is still not there, now you all whinged about the same thing when he was coach of Munster and Eddie O'Sulllivan was in charge, again crap tactics, but at least Declan Kidney could motivate the Munster players, so when the Irish players up their game without their sprinkling of NIQ players I will agree with you, but crap tactics or good tactics, if the extra few inches cannot be found then we know where the problems are.

I find it hard to believe that Casey Laulala, Tommy Bowe, Jerry Collins, Jonah Lomu, Kees Meeuws, Percy Montgomery, Xavier Rush, Marty Holah, Justin Marshal etc etc etc were basement bargains compared to our foreign players in Ireland.

Stag, you will have a quality player in Laulala when he signs for you next season, he is sometomes worth the admission fee all on his own.

LordDowlais wrote:Secretfly, I am not doing this with you again, but I will say this, for the last time, when the Irish players perform to the standard they do for their country like they do for their province's or vice versa then I will agree with you, but they do not even play to Declan Kidneys tactics with any enthusiasm, so although the tactics might be wrong, the effort is still not there, now you all whinged about the same thing when he was coach of Munster and Eddie O'Sulllivan was in charge, again crap tactics, but at least Declan Kidney could motivate the Munster players, so when the Irish players up their game without their sprinkling of NIQ players I will agree with you, but crap tactics or good tactics, if the extra few inches cannot be found then we know where the problems are.

Player problem again, Lord. Try an honest coaching critique and I might respond more favourably.

Look Secretfly, I know the difference when I see a players smashing into a ruck putting himself on the line for his province, and then not bothering to do the same for his country, that is not about tactics it's about not following examples set by others around you. It does not matter what tactics are employed, you cannot blame everything on the coaches, as you have done for the last three people who have been put in charge.

LordDowlais wrote:Stag, you will have a quality player in Laulala when he signs for you next season, he is sometomes worth the admission fee all on his own.

I know, I am CHUFFED to pieces with it. Think he will be a big help

LordDowlais wrote:Look Secretfly, I know the difference when I see a players smashing into a ruck putting himself on the line for his province, and then not bothering to do the same for his country, that is not about tactics it's about not following examples set by others around you. It does not matter what tactics are employed, you cannot blame everything on the coaches, as you have done for the last three people who have been put in charge.

You blame nothing on this Irish set of coaches.... Nothing is as evasive as everything in the real world - where I live. A coach either chooses the pattern the players play to or he chooses the players who will play it. He doesn't have a choice, he must coach.

Nice try, Lord - but again, too elementary a comment on coaching issues at Ireland.com

LordDowlais wrote:Look Secretfly, I know the difference when I see a players smashing into a ruck putting himself on the line for his province, and then not bothering to do the same for his country, that is not about tactics it's about not following examples set by others around you. It does not matter what tactics are employed, you cannot blame everything on the coaches, as you have done for the last three people who have been put in charge.

This is a drum I have been beating a while. Players seem to care more about their province than their country.

Trimble admits nothing like playing for Ulster.

I know O'Gara has spokenly openly about simiar feelings.

LordDowlais wrote:Secretfly, I am not doing this with you again, but I will say this, for the last time, when the Irish players perform to the standard they do for their country like they do for their province's or vice versa then I will agree with you, but they do not even play to Declan Kidneys tactics with any enthusiasm

I disagree, I think they hoof the ball away and tackle themselves into the ground with great aplomb and vigour.....

red_stag wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look Secretfly, I know the difference when I see a players smashing into a ruck putting himself on the line for his province, and then not bothering to do the same for his country, that is not about tactics it's about not following examples set by others around you. It does not matter what tactics are employed, you cannot blame everything on the coaches, as you have done for the last three people who have been put in charge.

This is a drum I have been beating a while. Players seem to care more about their province than their country.

Trimble admits nothing like playing for Ulster.

I know O'Gara has spokenly openly about simiar feelings.

Cheers Stag, do me a favour, tell secretfly will you.

red_stag wrote:
This is a drum I have been beating a while. Players seem to care more about their province than their country.

Trimble admits nothing like playing for Ulster.

I know O'Gara has spokenly openly about simiar feelings.

Stag no player has ever said they care more about their province than country: Not Trimble, not Best and not even O'Gara.

If you want to twist their words to suit your own fellings then that is up to you but it is an insult to these players even suggest it.

Dowlais, in fact I have a whole article on the subject including a telling quote from Rory Best

“Its hard to know why Ireland have underperformed because it’s the same group of players as when they play for their provinces. There are a lot of good points when we come together, but because the three groups are so competitive sometimes it takes a wee bit of time to get into it. Its like being with the enemy and there are splits within the camp”.

http://redstagrugby.blogspot.com/2012/04/elephant-in-room.html

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:
This is a drum I have been beating a while. Players seem to care more about their province than their country.

Trimble admits nothing like playing for Ulster.

I know O'Gara has spokenly openly about simiar feelings.

Stag no player has ever said they care more about their province than country: Not Trimble, not Best and not even O'Gara.

If you want to twist their words to suit your own fellings then that is up to you but it is an insult to these players even suggest it.

Why is it an insult?

The provinces simply embody passion in my book. The players and fans both bring more to the table.

What exactly is your claim that this is untrue based upon?

Have a read of this thread - https://www.606v2.com/t26574-club-country-lions-priorites

by drsambo1928 on Fri 30 Mar 2012 - 23:53
Listen its Leinster or nothing. I could not care by a large amount how the Lions or even Ireland get on. If thier not in blue and have 2 shiny stars above the crest, then they can jog on. It's all about Leinster.

by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 11 Apr 2012 - 23:17
im definitely leinster both europe and league before country and then lions

by EnglishReign on Wed 18 Apr 2012 - 16:50
I can identify more with my club than country, but would still like to see England do well in the major comps

by johnpartle on Mon 26 Mar 2012 - 15:19
But, I think club should be the priority; it was there before any other form and it's the bedrock of rugby culture at every level.

There are plenty of fans there who relate more to their club than their country. Why is it any different for players?

Stag Fly you are both deluded.

Fly you are right, rugby in Dublin is poor, both at the RDS and Aviva, you wouldn't know theres a game on most of the time!!!

However with the Dublin bubble a large amount of GAA supporters also support rugby, those Lunster boys who think they on of the dirty common have now converted back to their own team.

The player you mention stag were actually bargain basement, Jonah Lomu was retired, out of shape sick, Laulala a minimal capped nobody, as was Rush, Bowe was a nothing player before the O's picked him up, Collins was retired and over the hill physically. Sam norton knight cost more than any of them!!!

It's funny how deluded some of you are!!

It is an insult to suggest that the players try harder, are more commited and feel more passionate for their province.

It is also untrue.

Unfortunately it is not true of the fans, particularly the newer generation who have embraced the HEC more than the National game.

But players? No.

Playing for their country is the pinacle and none have suggested otherwise.

Also it is not the biggest reason we do badly I would say. Coaching is a massive problem.

However I do think it is an issue. It was enough of an issue once before to merit a no holes barred team meeting on the subject prior to the 2009 Six Nations.

The idea that Munster players were more passionate about their province and that it needed to be addressed.

Was Kearney wrong in 2009 to say that?

Stag once again you are totally wrong!!

Ask a welshman if he prefers his club or country, and he'll ask you which club he's allowed to pick, actual local rugby club or region?!

That just about says it all, when you know anything about it come back!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Stag Fly you are both deluded.

Fly you are right, rugby in Dublin is poor, both at the RDS and Aviva, you wouldn't know theres a game on most of the time!!!

However with the Dublin bubble a large amount of GAA supporters also support rugby, those Lunster boys who think they on of the dirty common have now converted back to their own team.

The player you mention stag were actually bargain basement, Jonah Lomu was retired, out of shape sick, Laulala a minimal capped nobody, as was Rush, Bowe was a nothing player before the O's picked him up, Collins was retired and over the hill physically. Sam norton knight cost more than any of them!!!

It's funny how deluded some of you are!!

Blues, you'd sell any dream to pocket some sunshine. But keep dreaming of the big bucks and the perfect Provincial nose for an A grade foreigner.........................

red_stag wrote:
The idea that Munster players were more passionate about their province and that it needed to be addressed.

Was Kearney wrong in 2009 to say that?

Yes he was and he backtracked on it afterwards saying he actually meant the Leinster players weren't showing enough passion but I think you know this.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Stag Fly you are both deluded.

Fly you are right, rugby in Dublin is poor, both at the RDS and Aviva, you wouldn't know theres a game on most of the time!!!

However with the Dublin bubble a large amount of GAA supporters also support rugby, those Lunster boys who think they on of the dirty common have now converted back to their own team.

The player you mention stag were actually bargain basement, Jonah Lomu was retired, out of shape sick, Laulala a minimal capped nobody, as was Rush, Bowe was a nothing player before the O's picked him up, Collins was retired and over the hill physically. Sam norton knight cost more than any of them!!!

It's funny how deluded some of you are!!

Really? I am genuinely amazed by that. If that is true I hold up my hands as deluded as it makes no sense whatsoever.

We hardly broke the bank to bring in Wian du Preez, Lifeimi Mafi, Isa Nacewa, Pedrie Wannenburg, Stan Wright, Paul Warwick, Heinke van der Merwe, Trevor Halstead etc.

You won't convince me that we are forking out big money to bring these people to Ireland

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:
The idea that Munster players were more passionate about their province and that it needed to be addressed.

Was Kearney wrong in 2009 to say that?

Yes he was and he backtracked on it afterwards saying he actually meant the Leinster players weren't showing enough passion but I think you know this.

I do know that and thats my whole point. We fixed it temporarily. Then Leinster went on to reach 3 Heineken Cup Finals over the next 4 years and I feel peoples priorities became a bit up in the air once again.

Bluemancometh, I am just talking about Ireland not Wales.

red_stag wrote:I do know that and thats my whole point. We fixed it temporarily. Then Leinster went on to reach 3 Heineken Cup Finals over the next 4 years and I feel peoples priorities became a bit up in the air once again.

Yes exactly, you feel that which is fair enough but you are selectively lifting players quotes out of context and interpreting them to suit this view which is the problem.

You are ommitting things like how proud Rory Best was to captain Ireland in the 6N, Trimble feeling more stressed out for Ireland and how gutted he was not to be starting last summer, how O'Gara was do depressed after the RWC he said he didn't care about winning another HEC with Munster etc.......

You are just twisting things to suit your view that the Provinces are more important to Irish fans and players.

Rodders, also I am not trying to be insulting to anyone.

However, lets be logical. We have lots of fans who prefer supporting their province than supporting their country. We see the team play with more enthusiasm. We have had the Irish team discuss this issue in the past. We have had players speak about how much they enjoy playing for their province and the difference playing for their country. Apart from the ones mentioned earlier Alan Quinlan wrote about it in newspapers this week.

There is way too many things convincing me this is an issue. Protesting that international rugby is the pinnacle is not a strong enough counter argument.

Winning changes perspectives. It really does. We talk about club loyalty and National loyalty, and natural affinities etc.

What we like is winning - seeing our sides win.

Right now the Welsh are winning at International and we shout at them that they're not so good at regional, pretend thats what we really crave and are secretly so jealous of their International success.

Right now we Irish are winning in European club and they shout at us that we're not so good at International, pretend thats what they really crave and are secretly so jealous of our European success.

Winning is the key. Winning twists loyalties from Province/Region/club to International and back again, depending on the season, depending on the year.

But yes, inbuilt in all of us too is a more loaded persuasion. For me that's international - so whilst I'm generally happy about Provincial success I'm also mad jealous of them blasted Welsh lads and their International success!

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:I do know that and thats my whole point. We fixed it temporarily. Then Leinster went on to reach 3 Heineken Cup Finals over the next 4 years and I feel peoples priorities became a bit up in the air once again.

Yes exactly, you feel that which is fair enough but you are selectively lifting players quotes out of context and interpreting them to suit this view which is the problem.

You are ommitting things like how proud Rory Best was to captain Ireland in the 6N, Trimble feeling more stressed out for Ireland and how gutted he was not to be starting last summer, how O'Gara was do depressed after the RWC he said he didn't care about winning another HEC with Munster etc.......

You are just twisting things to suit your view that the Provinces are more important to Irish fans and players.

Rodders, it isn't that they don't care. I would imagine Best would be proud to captain the Lions or Barbarians too. I hadn't see O'Gara saying that but its good to know.

Again I have no idea why you feel my view is insulting to them.

Stag

In fairness he was earning 200k a year... LOSER!!!

But none of the players listed were signed for much at all, infact Lomu was barely earning a wage, he was trying his hand at proffessional rugby again.

The amount the Ulster offered Rush was far more than the Blues could afford, they upped their offer but still couldn't match Ulsters wage. Laulala we couldn't afford to pay and Munster offered him an improved offer! Nacewa was signed cheap enough, but now commands a fortuen.

Plus it's not just about signing players, it's about resigning players. The Irish boys have the advantages of the tax issues, using Connacht to develop players etc... that the Welsh sides can't compete with long term.

red_stag wrote:Rodders, also I am not trying to be insulting to anyone.

However, lets be logical. We have lots of fans who prefer supporting their province than supporting their country. We see the team play with more enthusiasm. We have had the Irish team discuss this issue in the past. We have had players speak about how much they enjoy playing for their province and the difference playing for their country. Apart from the ones mentioned earlier Alan Quinlan wrote about it in newspapers this week.

There is way too many things convincing me this is an issue. Protesting that international rugby is the pinnacle is not a strong enough counter argument.

I am talking specifically about players, I have no doubt many fans feel differently that is a seperate issue and one I believe is a big problem.

I don't believe we see more or less enthusiasm just a difference in awareness, execution and cohesion.

You still haven't provided one quote of a player saying they prefer their province to their country.

Some players may feel more comfortable within their provincial set up but that is a different issue.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Stag

In fairness he was earning 200k a year... LOSER!!!

Thanks for that

Guys, thanks for the comments. Some very good points raised. Just another point I might raise. Could the issue be one of self belief?

The Welsh regions have had very limited success in the Heiniken cup and perhaps their players have come to expect this and do not believe they can really match the top clubs. But when they play for Wlaes they have experienced success and believe in themselves that they can win.

Conversely, the Irish have had great success with their provinces and believe when they play they can beat any club side in the world. Yet at national level it has long been suggested that the Irish are uncomfortable with the tag of being favourites and expectation to win. They prefer the plucky underdog status which they have generally assumed prior to the last decade.

Wales have traditionally had golden eras in international rugby that the Irish have never had so Welsh rugby culture has more experience in being considered favourites and dealing with expectation. The Irish have usually been underdogs at international level until round about the expansion to include Italy. Could it be an issue of contrasting beliefs?

Players and Fans will continue to feel little for their National side till it wins something and is consistent.

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:Rodders, also I am not trying to be insulting to anyone.

However, lets be logical. We have lots of fans who prefer supporting their province than supporting their country. We see the team play with more enthusiasm. We have had the Irish team discuss this issue in the past. We have had players speak about how much they enjoy playing for their province and the difference playing for their country. Apart from the ones mentioned earlier Alan Quinlan wrote about it in newspapers this week.

There is way too many things convincing me this is an issue. Protesting that international rugby is the pinnacle is not a strong enough counter argument.

I am talking specifically about players, I have no doubt many fans feel differently that is a seperate issue and one I believe is a big problem.

I don't believe we see more or less enthusiasm just a difference in awareness, execution and cohesion.

You still haven't provided one quote of a player saying they prefer their province to their country.

Some players may feel more comfortable within their provincial set up but that is a different issue.

Nor will I be able to. No player is going to come out and point blank say that.

Ah its a road we've travelled down many times before Rodders. I think there is enough evidence to suggest it is an issue. You believe that even if fans don't seem to accept international rugby is the pinnacle anymore, the players dont feel that way.

I think the notion that Ireland's repeated poor performances have nothing to do with Kidney/Smal/Kiss is quite mad. It would be like saying Wales performances in 2007 had nothing to do with Gareth Jenkins. The players really were that bad, but luckily they all got infinitely better in 2008 independently of anything Warren Gatland did. Nonsense.

Gareth Jenkins regime was an unholy disaster. A shambles. Kidney's has become the same. There is no competition for places. The gameplan is rubbish and completely predictable for the opposition. There is no coach in the setup that has ever had anything to do with being a backs coach. There are therefore no backs moves or set plays of any quality. In fact they don't seem to have any rehearsed moves at all as far as I can tell. Which is shocking. They just pass it out to the touchline and either get tackled into touch or kick it away. The use of the bench is almost always bizarre and counter-productive. The selections are repeatedly wrong. There is no experimentation or any seeming willingness to change anything.

When we are actually forced by the scoreboard to hold onto the ball we tend to score tries. Off the cuff really. Because we have good players. But as long as we're not trailing we'll keep kicking the ball up the field for territory. Even if one point ahead we'll try and defend to victory. This worked in 2009 in the ELV era. Everybody was playing this way and we did it best. But the ELV era is gone and the tackle laws encourage running rugby now.

Kidney has never coached a team to play this way. He has hired no backs coach to assist him to do this. We obviously have the firepower to play a better more modern way. We know this because the provinces do it. But Kidney is unwilling or unable to utilize what we have in the right way. He's doing what he always did. He's playing a style of "Munster rugby" that is so out of date that Munster don't even try to play that way anymore.

Meanwhile our stars are completely dominating the HC and our youngsters are dominating the PRO12, by playing good, smart, modern rugby. But no, it has nothing to do with Kidney.

Gordy wrote:Guys, thanks for the comments. Some very good points raised. Just another point I might raise. Could the issue be one of self belief?

The Welsh regions have had very limited success in the Heiniken cup and perhaps their players have come to expect this and do not believe they can really match the top clubs. But when they play for Wlaes they have experienced success and believe in themselves that they can win.

Conversely, the Irish have had great success with their provinces and believe when they play they can beat any club side in the world. Yet at national level it has long been suggested that the Irish are uncomfortable with the tag of being favourites and expectation to win. They prefer the plucky underdog status which they have generally assumed prior to the last decade.

Wales have traditionally had golden eras in international rugby that the Irish have never had so Welsh rugby culture has more experience in being considered favourites and dealing with expectation. The Irish have usually been underdogs at international level until round about the expansion to include Italy. Could it be an issue of contrasting beliefs?

Gordy, it's all about stepping up to the challenge, some Irish posters on here are totally dismissing international rugby as the pinnacle, and resting the laurels on the fact that their clubs/teams/provinces/regions are the barrometer for succsess, it's all about being "able" to get that extra few yards out of yourself to perform at a higher level, sadly, for the most part I do not think that Ireland have enough of those type of players, but some on here would rather blame the coaches, I have seen it here in Wales aswell when we had Gareth Jenkings in charge and we had a player power issue as they lost all confidence in him, if that was the case with Declan Kidney then how come none of the Irish players are complaining about him ?

But the Irish national team has consistently underachieved, not just under Kidney.

You're 'golden generation' of players are settling down for their twilight years in rugby and have won little for Ireland.

Completely different story for the provinces, which are pretty much countries to their players.

Declan Kidney is the main difference between Ireland and Wales. Stag's point has some merits. While it may be a different sport, a lot of GAA players have similar feelings when winning a club championship for their team and winning something for their County. It's not entirely different between province and country. Club means more as it's guys you have none for a long time and might have grown up with.

red_stag wrote:
You believe that even if fans don't seem to accept international rugby is the pinnacle anymore, the players dont feel that way.

No but think that players are not immune to the fans and media so if they think the country is not behind them then that can have an impact.

Again that is not what you said.

I fundimentally believe that no player feels more passionate, committed or proud in their provincial jersey than their national jersey, no matter what province they are from.

I think there are frustrations in the National camp and it looks like confidence and moral have dipped since the RWC.

However I could say the same thing about Munster at times this season. I could argue that O'Connell and Ryan are more passionate in an Ireland jersey based on their performances. I don't believe that either.

Players feel passionate about both their province and country but as has been said everyone enjoys playing in a winning side so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Leinster boys were enjoying their provincial rugby more.

Fecless, were you reading my mind when you typed your post ?