Irish and Welsh contrast?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

red_stag wrote:Dowlais,

Why does he have to be either a world beater or a nobody. Can he not simply be an international standard player.

As you correctly say the real issue was that Ireland dont have the depth. We can't call on VDM or Botha or Afoa.

Nothing wrong with that at all stag, all I am saying is if you want compare him with someone, he should be at least at the same level as them, after all I did not bring any Welsh players into this debate. Also I did not mention anything about Ireland's strength in depth, who's to say you will not unearth a gem within the next few seasons.

Stag, I think you're right about Fitzpatrick. Adam Jones is a good comparison. He was onnce not fit enough to play more than one half. But he could scrummage. It's the same with Fitzpatrick. I think improving his fitness and getting him caps should actually be Ulster and the IRFU's top priority. He may turn out to be the next Adam Jones. He may not. But who else is there?

Yes its a lot easier to help a fat bloke who can scrummage to shed weight than teaching already fit players how to scrummage.

Surely the issue isnt as straightforward as simply lacking a tighthead here or there or weakness in a certain area? The phenomenon of Ireland producing good club sides but failing to translate into good Irish teams with Wales being the opposite has been going on for the best part of a decade now.

Somebody made the point the Ireland are just buying their Heinikens Cups? Is it just a case of money, which for obvious reasons doesnt count at international level?

From what I have seen, Macklin may be just as promising a scrummager.

Gordy wrote:Surely the issue isnt as straightforward as simply lacking a tighthead here or there or weakness in a certain area? The phenomenon of Ireland producing good club sides but failing to translate into good Irish teams with Wales being the opposite has been going on for the best part of a decade now.

Somebody made the point the Ireland are just buying their Heinikens Cups? Is it just a case of money, which for obvious reasons doesnt count at international level?

No.

Gordy it isn't any one particular reason. IMO there are a lot of reasons behind it.

- The provinces seem to have a 16th man in terms of passionate support. The atmosphere in Ravenhill, Thomond, RDS is much better than the Aviva Stadium.

- The provinces have better coaching. Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and Munster have clear gameplans. The national teams approach seems to be just pick the guys who do well in Europe and hope for best.

- There is an element of "trying to please everyone" with the national team. You would never see them do as Wales did in 2008.

- We have a few foreign players in key positions - this position has long been tighthead and been a problem position for several years now.

Its also important to bear in mind that we have had some success but just could never beat France for whatever reason.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:From what I have seen, Macklin may be just as promising a scrummager.

Then in time he can come along but for now it simply must be Fitzpatrick. Macklin has I think genuinely only one start in the Rabo Direct in his entire career. The longest amount of rugby he has ever played in a match for Ulster is 40 minutes.

Most of all, the provinces play a specific type of game plan to cater to their strengths. Ireland has no game plan, and if they do have one, it certainly does not suit the players. Our players seem to have a natural affinity to play expansive rugby, and use our big forwards to give us a good attacking platform. Physical up front, quick ball, skilful and dangerous back line. That is how the Ireland team should look, but it doesn't. Kidney prefers a negative brand of rugby that our players simply do not suit.

Without any foreigners at all, Leinster could take on any top side in the world. That is my counter to the foreigner comments.

Irelands provinces are better supported and therefore richer giving them the money to keep greater depth of talent at the clubs, regardles of wether they are IQ or not, strength in depth at a club means the ability to maintain a higher standard of rugby throughout the course of a whole season and not suffer so badly through injuries, the Welsh regions cannot afford to keep the same number of 1st class players on their payrolls hence they cannot absorb injuries and international call ups as well as the provinces.

As for the international teams, both teams have their share of quality players and the difference between the teams when they have met has been marginal, winning the close games comes down to good coaching and gameplans so the difference for me is Gatland and Co.

The regions could be as good as the Irish provinces. And one of the main reasons they're not is because the Welsh public won't bother themselves to go to a stadium and support them in any numbers. There are plenty of other threads on why this is. But that's one of the main reasons.

Because of it, they don't have the money to keep their best players and don't have squads to match the Irish. It also must be very disheartening for young Welsh players to run out into half empty stadiums. It's not very motivating, and it probably makes them more likely to look abroad for a big payday than the Irish. I think the support of the Irish crowds help their teams and also create loyalty to the cause among the players. It's probably more important than tax rebates. O'Driscoll could have made far more money over his career in France, tax rebate or no tax rebate. And his place in the Irish team wouldn't have been lost. It was loyalty that made him stay.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:From what I have seen, Macklin may be just as promising a scrummager.

Then in time he can come along but for now it simply must be Fitzpatrick. Macklin has I think genuinely only one start in the Rabo Direct in his entire career. The longest amount of rugby he has ever played in a match for Ulster is 40 minutes.

Yeah, like... 50 minutes. Only player who's got picked for Ireland on that little gametime is BOD! Let Macklin develop; he will develop in time.

A combined welsh/Irish team:

15. Ron Kearney
14. Tommy bowe
13. Brian odriscoll
12. Jamie Roberts
11. George North
10. Johnny sexton
9. Mike phillips
8. Toby faletau
7. Sam warburton
6. Dan lydiate
5. Paul oconnel
4. Luke charteris
3. Adam jones
2. Mathew Rees
1. Getting Jenkins.

Wales 10
Ireland 5

Any other Irish players worthy of a place in this team?

I would put Ferris or O'Brien at 6 over Lydiate. Plus I would have O'Brien or possibly Heaslip over Faletau at 8. Best is better than Rees, so Best at hooker. Apart from that (and replacing Roberts with Davies) your team looks pretty good.

Best is better than Rees. Healy is better going forward than Jenkins. And I rate a particularly good attacker as more important than a particularly good defender in the modern game. Most players can be taught to tackle well. The notion that Lydiate is a better player than Ferris in any facet of the game is silly. In fact Ireland probably have three 6's better than Lydiate in O'Mahoney, O'Brien and Ferris. And the Munster locks are better than the Welsh ones. Heaslip is better than Faletau. That's not to say any of those Welsh players are poor players. I just think the Irish have better players in those positions.

I think Ireland have better players in more positions. But I think Wales are much better coached and are therefore more cohesive and confident in the gameplan and each other. And they don't have any major weaknesses that are being exposed like we currently do at 12. Their weakest position is probably 10 but a lot of the kicking duties are taken on by other players. In the same way that O'Gara's defensive weakness used to be made up for by Wallace and the Irish backrow.

I also think that smaller, quicker players like Fitzgerald or Earls can be just as effective as big guys like North or Cuthbert if they're used in the right way. The Irish guys are not being used effectively by Kidney.

Actually lads, as soon as I pressed send on that last post I realized the pointlessness of it. We probably shouldn't get into that heated circular argument that I got into there. I remember I would have laughed at the idea of the Welsh being better than the Irish in 2007. But they went on to win a Grand Slam in 2008. The Welsh would have named a Lions team with 10 Welshmen in it after that. But Ireland ended up winning the Slam and going unbeaten in 2009. Both sides will always love their own players. Sometimes they'll be proven right sometimes wrong.

Back to the Irish test teams performance. Our win rate is about 50%. Even at home. We've only beaten 1 top 8 team in the last year. We've lost 2 in a row to England, 3 in a row to Wales and have 1 draw and 4 defeats to the French in the last 3 seasons. We've lost at home to Scotland in 2010. The Irish fans tend to be silent as they watch the kick chase dross. We should be doing better than we are, with the players they have.

Players alone are not the reasons behind the provinces beating the regions or Wales beating Ireland.

The Scarlets have failed to win against Munster for 15 games in a row now and I think they have a very good team and even have quite good depth in some areas. Same with Ospreys - they have had some seriously amazing players and made some superb NWQ signings like Jerry Collins and Tommy Bowe, yet they were absolutely crushed when they played in the ERC quarter finals.

Similarly Wales have now beaten Ireland 3 times in a row yet it is not merely that they have better players.

Wales are underperforming at regional level and Ireland are internationally for a variety of different reasons.

I can not wait for the day when you stop waving that Munster v Scarlets stat about Stag


Agree with your last line though.

Dreamer, please don't get me wrong I am delighted to have won those games. But it is not a player issue.

Johne Murphy, Denis Hurley, Lifeimi Mafi, James Coughlan, Damien Varley, Niall Ronan, Will Chambers, Wian du Preez, Peter O'Mahony, Simon Zebo etc

These were the types of guys who beat you in Parc y Scarlets in the Heineken Cup. Are they really better than Iestyn Thomas, Matthew Rees, Ben Morgan, Aaron Shingler, George North, Steven Jones, Rhys Priestland, Scott Andrews, Jonathan Davies, Sean Lamont etc.

The possibly are but there is no real difference in player quality.

red_stag wrote:Wales are underperforming at regional level and Ireland are internationally for a variety of different reasons.

+1

Nail on the head there stag.

Scrumdown wrote:A combined welsh/Irish team:

15. Ron Kearney
14. Tommy bowe
13. Brian odriscoll
12. Jamie Roberts
11. George North
10. Johnny sexton
9. Mike phillips
8. Toby faletau
7. Sam warburton
6. Dan lydiate
5. Paul oconnel
4. Luke charteris
3. Adam jones
2. Mathew Rees
1. Getting Jenkins.

Wales 10
Ireland 5

Any other Irish players worthy of a place in this team?

OMG!!!!!

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:Wales are underperforming at regional level and Ireland are internationally for a variety of different reasons.

+1

Nail on the head there stag.

Totally disagree with you guys on this - It seems this suggestion makes people feel more comfortable IMO:

The welsh teams are not underperforming at Regional level, The Ospreys are a clear 2nd in the league and when you look at their present day squad there's an argument that they are over performing, albeit with a pack to match anyone. The Scarlets have a weak pack and are in their rightful position with great wins over the likes of Northampton away with a bonus point and defeats to Italian teams summing up the Scarlets way - they need a pack! - The Blues are a poor team who are poorly coached and are therefore in their rightful position this season; probably the worse region at the moment. Dragons need some more financial backing but are again in their rightful position. Neither of these 4 Regions are underperforming IMO.

As for Ireland underperforming at international level, I think its time for the Irish fans to face some reality - You played well at home to Wales and could or should have won the game, That aside you are where you are in the 6 nations because of the side that you have and perhaps the fact that the coach is unable to get the best out of a decent team.

Therefore I dont believe the Regions are underperforming and I dont believe the Irish national team are underperforming - Fans should just accept that they are where they are because that is their level at the moment. Anyone have the balls to accept that

Ruby, I don't understand. You said that the Ireland coach failed to get the best out of the team.

That means the team is underperforming - i.e. not playing to the best it can.

Maybe I've misunderstood you but that makes no sense to me.

RubyGuby wrote:
As for Ireland underperforming at international level, I think its time for the Irish fans to face some reality - You played well at home to Wales and could or should have won the game, That aside you are where you are in the 6 nations because of the side that you have and perhaps the fact that the coach is unable to get the best out of a decent team.

Therefore I dont believe the Regions are underperforming and I dont believe the Irish national team are underperforming - Fans should just accept that they are where they are because that is their level at the moment. Anyone have the balls to accept that

You've just contradicted yourself Ruby.

Sorry but that is absolute tosh. I've watched the same Welsh players who won the GS for their regions and they are not the same players. The reverse is true of the Irish players.

I watched Fergus McFadden give a motm performance against the Scarlets, a week after the Welsh backline had trampled all over him. Simon Zebo had George North chasing shadows a few weeks ago and Sean O'Brien had Warburton in his pocket in January, yet at National level Wales have surged ahead over the past 18 months.

The bottom line is the Welsh players go up several levels when performing for Wales and are slotting into a well defined and exectuted gameplan that suits their strengths whereas the Irish players are peaking for their provinces for a plethora of reasons discussed above.

No Stag I was aware of that point and it shows how perceptive you are to pick up on it. It is of course relevant, however I still believe Ireland are in their rightful position at present and are not "under-performing" as people are trying to make out. Declan could be making some more of it (that might sound a little contradictory) but I still don't think you have the raw material to go above where you are at the moment. You have an unbalanced and over-hyped back row row, an ageing and average 2nd row a reasonable front row. Poor 9's, 10 is the business IMO, you don't know who your centre partnership is, you have Bowe who like Sexton and Kearney are class and you remain uncertain of your other winger. Ireland are in transition and I dont see things changing for a while. I therefore don't believe you are "under-performing" to the extent that people are making out. I think your performance against Wales in the world cup 1/4's is a reflection of where you are - Sorry

Rodders, if you put BOD in a poor team that is poorly coached then he to would perform like Cuthbert and the others you mention. Looking at Kidney as the problem is to delude yourselves that this is a strong Irish team, all I'm saying is that I think it's not a strong team, irrespective of Declans input. Therefore I dont' think it's underperforming.

What are your expectations for Ireland in the next 6 Nations out of interest and that's a honest and serious question.

No bother Ruby. I get what your saying. Just don't agree.

Its like the concept that the "best team" always win. I understand it but dont agree

RubyGuby wrote:What are your expectations for Ireland in the next 6 Nations out of interest and that's a honest and serious question.

Honestly if Kidney is in charge and we continue on our current trend of picking on reputation rather than form I think we are looking at 3-4th place again.

If we get a new coaching set up and freshen up our squad with the form players then we can put in a serious challenge for the title.

Right now Wales and England our surging ahead with young, talented and hungry players whereas we look jaded and bereft of ideas and a gameplan, a bit like the French. Quality players looking lost and confused.

RubyGuby wrote:No Stag I was aware of that point and it shows how perceptive you are to pick up on it. It is of course relevant, however I still believe Ireland are in their rightful position at present and are not "under-performing" as people are trying to make out. Declan could be making some more of it (that might sound a little contradictory) but I still don't think you have the raw material to go above where you are at the moment. You have an unbalanced and over-hyped back row row, an ageing and average 2nd row a reasonable front row. Poor 9's, 10 is the business IMO, you don't know who your centre partnership is, you have Bowe who like Sexton and Kearney are class and you remain uncertain of your other winger. Ireland are in transition and I dont see things changing for a while. I therefore don't believe you are "under-performing" to the extent that people are making out. I think your performance against Wales in the world cup 1/4's is a reflection of where you are - Sorry

So if you think ireland dont have the players are the provinces over performing so????

RubyGuby wrote:Rodders, if you put BOD in a poor team that is poorly coached then he to would perform like Cuthbert and the others you mention. Looking at Kidney as the problem is to delude yourselves that this is a strong Irish team, all I'm saying is that I think it's not a strong team, irrespective of Declans input. Therefore I dont' think it's underperforming.

What are your expectations for Ireland in the next 6 Nations out of interest and that's a honest and serious question.

That depends on who the coach is and if we actually get a backs coach in as we haven't had one for close to a year now.

No, they have good foreign players in the right areas

The Provinces are not playing full international sides - They have been a beacon of success for Ireland and are the template for success IMO at Club/Regional.Provincial level - Throughout the late 70's and all the 80's english football teams dominated the european cup, largely with english players - At that time their national side remained the same. Success for a Province can be pretty meaningless when it comes to the next step or 2 up.

Rodders just wrote "we look jaded and bereft of ideas and a gameplan,"

That;s what I see and I don't know where the players are coming from. Name me your chosen powerful and dynamic 15 who can break out of this. I still don't see it, POC himself perhaps best reflects this situation as when he clicks he's one of the best, when he doesn't he's average at best and at the moment he's not clicking like he did when he was younger and his better days are behind him.

RubyGuby wrote:The Provinces are not playing full international sides - They have been a beacon of success for Ireland and are the template for success IMO at Club/Regional.Provincial level - Throughout the late 70's and all the 80's english football teams dominated the european cup, largely with english players - At that time their national side remained the same. Success for a Province can be pretty meaningless when it comes to the next step or 2 up.

Rodders just wrote "we look jaded and bereft of ideas and a gameplan,"

That;s what I see and I don't know where the players are coming from. Name me your chosen powerful and dynamic 15 who can break out of this. I still don't see it, POC himself perhaps best reflects this situation as when he clicks he's one of the best, when he doesn't he's average at best and at the moment he's not clicking like he did when he was younger and his better days are behind him.

Wow PoC has been in the best form of his career over the last year and a half so I don't know where you're getting that from.

Lets look at Rob Kearney as a great example,in the HC semi against Clermont there were several times where he caught a long kick and ran it back when there was no chance of a line break on.He just set up a ruck so as to allow Leinster to start attacking and put pressure on Clermont,he never does this for Ireland if he runs it back then there has to be an obvious gap otherwise he kicks an up and under.I can't believe that he plays so differently for Ireland without it being direct orders from his coaches and multiply this conservative way of playing by 15 and you get the dross we have now.

The thing is Kearney is still playing really well for Ireland but not all the other players are in the same type of form as he is so when they play this negative rubbish it is shown up even more.

Kearney is playing well for Ireland because he's class, - it's not a case of "the other players not being in the same type of form", they are not as good.

Wales/Ireland combined for me:

15. Kearney
14. Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. J Davies
11. George North
10. Johnny sexton
9. Mike phillips
8. Obrien
7. Sam warburton
6. Ferris
5. POC
4. Ian Evans
3. Adam jones
2. Best
1. Gethin Jenkins

What a side that would be, bring on the All Blacks

RubyGuby wrote:The Provinces are not playing full international sides - They have been a beacon of success for Ireland and are the template for success IMO at Club/Regional.Provincial level - Throughout the late 70's and all the 80's english football teams dominated the european cup, largely with english players - At that time their national side remained the same. Success for a Province can be pretty meaningless when it comes to the next step or 2 up.

Rodders just wrote "we look jaded and bereft of ideas and a gameplan,"

That;s what I see and I don't know where the players are coming from. Name me your chosen powerful and dynamic 15 who can break out of this. I still don't see it, POC himself perhaps best reflects this situation as when he clicks he's one of the best, when he doesn't he's average at best and at the moment he's not clicking like he did when he was younger and his better days are behind him.

That argument makes no sense. Welsh players are not playing international teams at regional level either and are struggling.

you state above that you agree with rodders and then go on to say that you dont think the players are up to much, which is again another contradiction.

Welsh players should be hugely proud of the way the play for their country because at the moment they are the best in europe but they are underperforming at club level.

Likewise Irish players should be proud of the way they play at club level but the fact remains they are underperforming at club level.

I dont understand the welsh players are not playing international teams at Regional level argument so can we leave that one.

The welsh players are scattered between the 4 Regions and some french clubs, the rest of the regions are made up of young welsh players and a some journeymen foreign players - No one is under performing IMO, it's just that having 4-5 quality internationals in your region does not then equate to having a good side, particularly with a poor platform. North, Cuthbert and many of the other welsh stars play on the front foot for Wales with a great platform, great support runners and a lot of power and dynamism across the park. They dont get these players around them at Regional level and hence its a different game. The Regions and the welsh players are not under-performing, it's just that they are playing in lesser sides and have less space to work within and less options available. Everyone marks Cuthbert for the Blues and he has little space and looks out of his depth on occasion. At international level with Roberts, Northa and Davies, defences dont know who to mark and he exploits that - This isn't rocket science and for me no one is underperforming.

The Ireland international team has won a staggeringly insignificant of amount silverwear when compared to the Provinces.

The Provinces are used to winning and expect to win. Maybe when they play for Ireland they don't expect to win so their heart isn't fully in it ?

Just a theory obviously. I suspect its all down to coaching. With the Osprey's new coaching team seeming to have a big effect on the way the team plays now and the Blues getting a new head coach maybe things will brighten up next season for the regions, especially when the O's beat Munster then Leinster for the league title

I just hope the Dragon's get someone new at the top, I liked Darren and had confidence when he started but he seems out of his depth and hasn't delivered anything.

I also had confidence in Darren but am now unsure - He needs some time and some cash - Lets share the players a bit more - A draft system similar to the American Football one would be interesting in Wales as we have too many quality youngsters still sitting it out at Regions. I like the new Osprey style and philosophy, much more organic and reminds me a little of my Neath side in the 80's with everyone playing for each other. Great win at Leinster a few eeks back - They seem to belive in each other and have a simple game plan. Good riddance to Holley and Johnson

RubyGuby wrote:The Regions and the welsh players are not under-performing, it's just that they are playing in lesser sides and have less space to work within and less options available. Everyone marks Cuthbert for the Blues and he has little space and looks out of his depth on occasion. At international level with Roberts, Northa and Davies, defences dont know who to mark and he exploits that - This isn't rocket science and for me no one is underperforming.

Exactly and that is down to the Welsh management picking a side which compliments each other and which is best suited to playing a gameplan which suits the big, powerful 3/4 line they have.

Ireland by contrast are not doing this. They are picking a mish mash side with half the side suited and accustomed to playing a fast pace offloading game and the other half more accustomed to a slower more direct territorial game plan and the result is some very high quality players playing well below their usual standards.

Sexton is the obvious example but also players like Kearney, Trimble, O'Brien are all playing different roles than they are at provincial level. Square pegs in round holes.

So pick me your side Rodders.

And by the way a lot of people on here refer to the welsh back line being big brutes compared to the smaller faster players like Fitzgerald. The welsh backline, Roberts aside is very very fast and people shouldn't confuse size for being slower.

Let's have your dream team if you were picking the Irish side?

Nope, most people refer to the welsh players as big and fast brutes. The irish players are neither as big, or as fast IMO. They have strengths in other areas of the game though. Leinster use that to their advantage. Ireland don't. Kidney has Ireland playing an outdated, negative brand of rugby. In his words, he wants to "kill" the opposition. Our players are not suited to that. They want to take risks, and play an expansive game suited to their natural skills.

And it doesn't matter what the irish "dream team" is. With Kidney in charge, we can pick anyone and they won't play right. If Ireland had players of the same calibre as the all blacks, we would still be crap because of what Kidney would try and do with the team. Would the all blacks suit a negative game such as the one I described above? I don't think so. Certainly wouldn't be playing to their strengths.

Its the tactics more than the players Ruby. Theres 2 or 3 top sides we could put out. Right now I'd go for something like:

15 Kearney
14 Kearney Jr
13 O'Driscoll
12 McFadden
11 Fitzgerald/ Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 O'Mahoney
6 Ferris
7 O'Brien
5 Ryan
4 O'Connell /Tuohy
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Court, Cronin, Touhy/Toner, Heaslip, Boss, Madigan, Earls

Coach: Joe Schmidt

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:The Regions and the welsh players are not under-performing, it's just that they are playing in lesser sides and have less space to work within and less options available. Everyone marks Cuthbert for the Blues and he has little space and looks out of his depth on occasion. At international level with Roberts, Northa and Davies, defences dont know who to mark and he exploits that - This isn't rocket science and for me no one is underperforming.

Exactly and that is down to the Welsh management picking a side which compliments each other and which is best suited to playing a gameplan which suits the big, powerful 3/4 line they have.

Ireland by contrast are not doing this. They are picking a mish mash side with half the side suited and accustomed to playing a fast pace offloading game and the other half more accustomed to a slower more direct territorial game plan and the result is some very high quality players playing well below their usual standards.

Sexton is the obvious example but also players like Kearney, Trimble, O'Brien are all playing different roles than they are at provincial level. Square pegs in round holes.

For a start I have not seen Trimble have a good game in ages, for province or country so I think he is a bit of a moot point, everybody who's Irish on here wax lyrical about their back row, but I have not seen them play well together since the Australia game in the world cup, and we all know what we say about the Australian forwards. These players are professionals so the square pegs in round holes is a situation I cannot except, how many times has Ryan Jones played at Lock, No. 8 No. 6 and still put in a performance. We have Halfpenny playing wing and fullback and still does a decent job. We swap our centers around different to where the regions play them and they do allright. I just think that the Irish supporters think that their Irish players are actually better than they are. You only have one decent front rower and that is Rory Best and he is no better than anyone else has in that position, then you have Healy and Ross who are not as good as you all think they are, also who do you have to replace them, Munster will probably have two South Africans starting in the front row on Friday night and at Ulster you have an All Black and an Aussie shot putter. I am not saying you do not have world class players though, you do have BOD, Kearney, Bowe, Sexton, Paul O'Connell, but now I am struggling to think who you have that are in their catagory and lets be honest, BOD and POC are not spring chickens are they.

"everybody who's Irish on here wax lyrical about their back row"

I see this phrase thrown about a lot, and I honestly have not seen people go on about how good our back row is. In fact there are many debates about it and who should be dropped etc. We believe we have some real talent available but most of us realise it isn't as good as it should/can be (like the rest of the team).

In fact the country that goes on about how perfect the balance of their back row every time they are brought up is.. well.. surely you know the answer to that yourself?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"everybody who's Irish on here wax lyrical about their back row"

I see this phrase thrown about a lot, and I honestly have not seen people go on about how good our back row is. In fact there are many debates about it and who should be dropped etc. We believe we have some real talent available but most of us realise it isn't as good as it should/can be (like the rest of the team).

In fact the country that goes on about how perfect the balance of their back row every time they are brought up is.. well.. surely you know the answer to that yourself?

Yes, thats because "on our day" we are the better than everyone and thats because of our perfectly balanced back row.

LordDowlais wrote: everybody who's Irish on here wax lyrical about their back row, but I have not seen them play well together since the Australia game in the world cup

If the Welsh backrow were required to do the ball carrying the Irish backrow do then they wouldn't look particurly good either.

They've been given an armchair ride over the past 12 months by their 3/4 line and front row.

rodders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: everybody who's Irish on here wax lyrical about their back row, but I have not seen them play well together since the Australia game in the world cup

If the Welsh backrow were required to do the ball carrying the Irish backrow do then they wouldn't look particurly good either.

They've been given an armchair ride over the past 12 months by their 3/4 line and front row.

Oh so thats it then, so why do the Irish back row need to carry so much ? Perhpas it's because your front and second row are not as good as you all seem to think they are. By george we've got it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
I see this phrase thrown about a lot, and I honestly have not seen people go on about how good our back row is.

I believe we have the best backrow in the NH by a country mile. I have no problem saying it.

They have been carrying our team, literally since 2010.

Individually Heaslip has been up and down but Ferris, O'Brien and prior to that David Wallace have been phenomenal.

I can't think of a single game we won which wasn't down to them.

LordDowlais wrote:Oh so thats it then, so why do the Irish back row need to carry so much ? Perhpas it's because your front and second row are not as good as you all seem to think they are. By george we've got it.

I don't think our front row is great at all. Never said otherwise.

O'Connell is up there with the best but has been in and out with injury and we've seen too much of O'Callaghan and not enough or Ryan and Tuohy. So yes the 2nd row hasn't been great either.

It makes our backrow even more impressive.

Who's had an armchair ride by their front row? The welsh back row?

Really, becuase Jones and Rees are huge around the feild? Jenkins and Davies provide the go forward, along with Falatau and Lydiate, the difference is there is little go forward by the Irish pack/Centres when you take the back row out of the carrying stats.

To answer the OP's question, you really have to look at the regional model in Wales, no real boundaries, a lot of fans disconnected, too many arguing businessmen wanting to get their way and noone has the cahunas to stand up and do whats right for the good of the country! Most regions are young and full of players who still feel like their clubmen, yet welshmen!

Welsh players arent bad at club level they just don't connect to the regions as do the fans!