Irish and Welsh contrast?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

Basically we have several different views here:

1. The Welsh view i.e. the Irish players are shoite.
2. The Irish theory : Kidney is a muppet
3. Stags elephant theory: the players are more passionate for their provinces
4 all of the above

LordDowlais wrote:Fecless, were you reading my mind when you typed your post ?

No. I am psychic. I can read minds easily when discussing Leinster. But I can't when discussing Ireland because Declan Kidney prevents me from using my mind reading abilities at international level.

rodders

Who said the Irish players were shoite? Individually i'd say they were stronger than their welsh counterparts, but there are too many gaping holes in the NT!!!

I'm Welsh and I vote for option 2 and 3.

I'd add a 5 which is Irish players aren't as Godly as some Irish fans claim them to be.

thebluesmancometh wrote:rodders

Who said the Irish players were shoite? Individually i'd say they were stronger than their welsh counterparts"!!!

Now you can add a 5) Some Irish fans are deluded

I'm not an Irish fan!!

If you go through the teams man for man Ireland probably win 12 times out of 15. Yet they have no ball fetcher, a huge problem in the midfield, and the scrum and lineout will struggle!!

12/15

Whats to funny?

Front row goes to Wales, except Best.

2nd row to Ireland.

Back row to Ireland except Warbs.

9, 10 to Ireland.

Back 3 to Ireland, except North.

Midfield 1 a peice.

ok 10 not 12.

What's so funny? - I tell you what, Wales won in Dublin with 6/7 first team players missing and you have them as having 12/15 as being better - That to me is funny

9 to Ireland, just saw it You on something or what

I picked the combo side earlier, 8 welsh and 7 Irish go look and come back to me - 12/15

Combo's are a different story!!!

I'd give majority of them to Wales!!!

15. Kearney
14. Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. J Davies
11. George North
10. Johnny sexton
9. Mike phillips
8. Obrien
7. Sam warburton
6. Ferris
5. POC
4. Ian Evans
3. Adam jones
2. Best
1. Gethin Jenkins

Have to disagree with your picks mate!

Rees scrummages better than Best, and Jenkins needs that!
POC just doesn't have that magic anymore, and Davies would be a better partner for Evans.
Ferris doesn't get near Lydiate when Warbs is at 7, I'd consider Ferris at 8 though.
BOD doesn't get a look in at 13 while there is no Roberts at 12, and if Roberts is at 12 then Davies has the legs on him, and his distribution has been excellent.
Also Ive seen Sexton wobble at test level, 1/2p has to be on the pitch if Preistland is on, but I'll give Sexton the benefit of the doubt so therefore Kearney is a better option at FB.
I would have Bowe over Cuthbert.

My side to win a game...

1. Jenkins
2. Rees
3. Jones
4. Evans
5. Davies
6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. Ferris
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

I'd also consider playing Bowe at 13 and Cuthbert on the wing for Davies at 13.

As individual players though 10 irishmen of 15 easy!

So you pick a team with 11 welshmen and 4 Irishmen but remain convinced that they have 10-12 better players - Its all yours Declan - enjoyed the thread

I wonder how much of a part supporters play. The Irish provinces supporters are up there with the fanatical fans from the south of France as the most noisy and passionate and loyal.

The Millenium stadium on 6 Nations day is unreal. It reminds me of All Ireland final day in Croke Park. They're there to watch a game. It's their national game. So they're also there to express their national identity and pride, win, lose or draw. It adds an extra bit of magic to the atmosphere.

So basically you are saying we have some very good individual players but when you put them together they amount to a shower of useless eejits...... finally we are in agreement about something.......

There's also the point that it's not entirely true or accurate to say that Ireland have been less successful than Wales or not successful at all.

Ireland have won 44 out of 65 games in the 6 Nations
Wales have 33. Considerably less.

Ireland have 3 wins against South Africa, 2 wins and a draw over Australia in the last 10 years. 6 good reults against SH opposition.
Wales have 1 solitary win over the Aussie's and that's it.

Ireland have placed higher than Wales in 10 of the 13 Six Nations Championships.

It's only in the last year that Wales have become the clearly better side. Ireland have on average been 2nd behind France over the course of the 6 Nations.

So let's not pretend the Welsh are on another planet to the Irish in test rugby, and there's some permanent gulf in class.

Yeah, lets not pretend

Yet with all your superior results you have what, 2 grandslams in 50 years ?

And you've had what is arguably your golden generation of players in the last decade and done little with them.

Based on these statistics, will some Irish fans on here see another green grandslam in their lifetime ?

Guys your out of sorts...

Claiming your better than someone because you've been placed as higher placed loser than them a number of times, or your more consistent in beating the smaller nations isn't very high brow now is it. You also have beaten weakened SH teams in FRIENDLIES more than us, well done that should really boost your trophy cabinet!

Shall I say that Wales are potentially far superior for Ireland, they win more trophies than you?! Do better at World cups? have a higher 6N and GS record?

When I comment on players individually I mean that they don't necesarilly compliment their nations side or tactics.

You have a lot of very good players, Leinster Munster and Ulster show that, but in all 3 sides there is no fetcher, SOB is a carrier and cannot play 7 on the int stage.

You have no quality in midfield anymore, BOD is over the hill, as is Darcy, and Mcfadden is yet to show anything above clubman.

The scrum is in trouble, and the lineout soon will be.

I think Wales combinations suit the team far better than Irelands do, and although theres no difference in terms of quality between them the Wales team will come out on top more often than not, especially as they have that hold up in the tackle and get numbers in there tactic in their back pocket!!!

I won't get into replying to the sneering and wumming

The essential point of the OP is that the Irish test team isn't performing as well as they should be and neither are the Welsh regions. The discussion should be over the reasons for this, not a my player is better than yours thing.

In Wales case, the problems with the regions have been discussed over and over on 606 and the main points are poor coaches, poor support, incompetent administrators, losing players abroad, lack of history/identity, and sub-standard foreign signings.

In Ireland's case I think everything points towards the national coaches (and lack of a coach in terms of the backs). There's also the suggestion that players are more passionate about their provinces and there's difficulty in moulding the differing provincial styles into a cohesive Irish way of playing.

Rogue I think youve read it all wrong!!

The welsh regions are struggling for one reason and one reason only, Wales doesn't have regions!

Losing players abroad has happened only recently, There are plenty of good coaches in Wales despite 606 pro's telling you there are not, admin is the same over the world, and there are plenty of top class foreign signings that have done very well at the regions!!!

And wether you like it or not Kidney is a very good coach, winning a GS, and putting numerous winning tactics in place. If you think Irish players are less passionate than anyone else on the int stage go and watch POC's put the fear of god into them talk!!!

Kidney doesn't have the team to win anything at the minute, he has very good players but too many holes that he can't fill.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Kidney doesn't have the team to win anything at the minute, he has very good players but too many holes that he can't fill.

Holes can be filled with decent hard working players. This is true of all teams, and especially to nations with small player bases like Ireland and Wales. As examples Stringer and Hayes were not world class players by any means, like O'Driscoll or O'Connell. But they did a fine job and were key to the Irish team that won 4 triple crowns and a grand slam. Like Shanklin or Lydiate for Wales. An effective player doing a job. You say we don't have a good 7. But have you seen O'Mahoney or Dominic Ryan? O'Mahoney started for an injured O'Brien and was really good. He was then dropped when O'Brien came back, despite being better at 7. Dom Ryan should be fast tracked into the Irish setup. He has the attributes of a potentially great 7.

Neither team have had 15 world beaters. Both can, and have built really good teams around key players. A good coach will have them confident, fighting for places, well drilled and playing a game that plays to their strengths and hides their weaknesses. Wales do this now. Ireland don't. You say Ireland's key men are in the backs and their pack are weak? If true, why are we playing like Munster or South Africa, when we should be playing in the way that Leinster or Australia do? Is it because we have a Munster head coach and a South African forwards coach? Maybe they're not the best coaching team to take this side forward?

As I've mentioned before, Kidney won a Grand Slam under different rules that suited his rugby philosophy perfectly. His way of playing has been made far less effective by the IRB (and rightly so in my opinion). But he has not changed. I think that's our problem.

I actually don't even know what to say to some of the crap I have just read on this thread.

Dan lydiate has more rugby intelligence than the Irish backrow which is why he is so highly rated by Gatland. Obrien and ferris are both strong ball carriers but are too one dimensional which is why they are ineffective at international level.

You've got laugh at the Irish posters on here, on old scrum V board they moaned about Gatland and his tactics, and he went, then on the old bbc 606 board you moaned about Eddie O'Sullivan and his tactics and then he went, now on this new board you are moaning about Declan Kidney and his tactics, not once have you thought that it could be your players.

LordDowlais wrote:You've got laugh at the Irish posters on here, on old scrum V board they moaned about Gatland and his tactics, and he went, then on the old bbc 606 board you moaned about Eddie O'Sullivan and his tactics and then he went, now on this new board you are moaning about Declan Kidney and his tactics, not once have you thought that it could be your players.

I'm glad you get a laugh off us irish posters. I myself get a laugh from nearly every post off you I read.

Scrumdown wrote:Dan lydiate has more rugby intelligence than the Irish backrow which is why he is so highly rated by Gatland. Obrien and ferris are both strong ball carriers but are too one dimensional which is why they are ineffective at international level.

Where has Lydiate shown himself to have more intelligence than the irish back row? O'Brien and Ferris one dimensional? Please do give some examples so that I can take your post seriously. Honestly, some of the comments I am reading are baffling.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:Dan lydiate has more rugby intelligence than the Irish backrow which is why he is so highly rated by Gatland. Obrien and ferris are both strong ball carriers but are too one dimensional which is why they are ineffective at international level.

Where has Lydiate shown himself to have more intelligence than the irish back row? O'Brien and Ferris one dimensional? Please do give some examples so that I can take your post seriously. Honestly, some of the comments I am reading are baffling.

I can give you one example, the last time they played against Wales. There you are. One very fine example, do you need another one, how about the game against England, oh, and the time they played Wales in the World cup.

But that's just naming games that Ireland lost.

I could name three games Wales lost. None of those results does anything to prove Dan Lydiate has a low IQ.

No, I was just pointing out examples when your back row have been one dimensional that's all.

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:Dan lydiate has more rugby intelligence than the Irish backrow which is why he is so highly rated by Gatland. Obrien and ferris are both strong ball carriers but are too one dimensional which is why they are ineffective at international level.

Where has Lydiate shown himself to have more intelligence than the irish back row? O'Brien and Ferris one dimensional? Please do give some examples so that I can take your post seriously. Honestly, some of the comments I am reading are baffling.

I can give you one example, the last time they played against Wales. There you are. One very fine example, do you need another one, how about the game against England, oh, and the time they played Wales in the World cup.

Firstly, Lydiate didn't play the last game we played Wales. Good start. Secondly, you are just listing a few games. Maybe you can tell me why you think Lydiate played such an intelligent game and why he is more intelligent than the irish back row?

LordDowlais wrote:No, I was just pointing out examples when your back row have been one dimensional that's all.

In what way were they one dimensional in those games?

Rogue

Omahony and Ryan aren't good out and out 7's, they are dynamic 6's or 8's. They are similar to SOB but are not as stronf ball carriers.

I personally would give the 7 shirt to Henry, he is the kind of guy that does a job, and can offer more at 7 thanmost of your 8's playing there!

You are right, Stringer and Hayes werent particularly talented, but they played their own position, and played to their strengths. Hayes was one tough and passionate bugger who gave everything he had, for me thats an attribute just as important than being able to scrummage well, maybe more so.

In the fact they could not change what they were doing to suit the way the game was going, especially against Wales, time and again they were chopped down by Lydiate and co, but they kept trying the same thing all game bless them.

Rory

In fairness dummies don't win player of the 6N's!!!

I personally think Ferris is the better player, but I would play Lydiate over Ferris if Warbs and Falatau are starting!!

LordDowlais wrote:In the fact they could not change what they were doing to suit the way the game was going, especially against Wales, time and again they were chopped down by Lydiate and co, but they kept trying the same thing all game bless them.

What was the same thing all game they kept doing and couldn't change? You are talking a lot of nonsense but not actually saying how they were one dimensional. In general, the irish team is playing a one dimensional game, so in a way I actually agree with you. However the players themselves are far from it. Also, what has Lydiate done that was so intelligent in the 6 nations? Captain tackles who actually didn't make as many tackles as people think? Ferris beat him by a fair bit.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rory

In fairness dummies don't win player of the 6N's!!!

I personally think Ferris is the better player, but I would play Lydiate over Ferris if Warbs and Falatau are starting!!

I think Davies did a great job in overhyping Lydiate to be honest. Mentioning him every time he made a tackle, and awarding him MOTM every game. Ferris literally did the exact same except better (and carried a LOT more effectively). Even O'Brien made the same amount of tackles, carried more, and had less game time for Ireland. Warburton is the difference between our backrows.

You are partly right, Warburton is the difference, despite playing a small number of games this season, his back up however is another player you can't find and thats another proper 7!!!

Ferris is a good player, but in reality he lost Ireland the first game, and this season had a tendancy to drift out wide similar to Croft because their carrying has become ineffectual in the tight.

The difference in backrows at the minute is that Gatland has realised forwards don't break the line in the tight and go on to score, so the back row carry lower than Ireland do, that avoids the Irish stand up gang tackle, and forces their forwards in and around the breakdown. Basically for all Irelands individual stats they have become far less effective as a unit than the welsh boys... FACT!

PS Davies is probably as bad as Moore, Wood etc.. In they all look at their own teams first! BIG SURPRISE!

Lydiate is a poor man's Simon Easterbuy, he must have the world best agent thats all I have to say .

If he was Irish he'd be carrying Ferris kit bag .

I think it was more to do with the fact that most of Lydiate's tackles were turn over tackles as he walloped the opposing player so hard he would either dislodge the ball or just stop all momentum altogether which allowed the rest of the backrow to get there and pinch the ball.Also as for carrying more effectively I think that could be debated.Carried more maybe, but more effectively hmmmmm I need to think about that one.

Did you not see the tackles Ferris put in? Did you not see his carries? I honestly give up at this point.

rodders wrote:Lydiate is a poor man's Simon Easterbuy, he must have the world best agent thats all I have to say .

If he was Irish he'd be carrying Ferris kit bag .

But it is all about the balance rodders! None of the NZ backrow would play for the welsh side! It would totally destroy the balance!

Here is my opinion on the welsh backrow. Warburton is world class. Lydiate and Faletau are good players. But as a whole, they look much better than they really are. Why? Because of the welsh back line. The big running centres and wingers for Wales give the forward momentum needed, and the welsh back row does not have to do half as much work. If you put the welsh backrow with the irish/french/australian backs, they wouldn't look half as good. They need big running backs to work with.

o.k, o.k, don't shout, I get it, the Irish players really are as good as you are all telling us especially the Leinster one's

LordDowlais wrote:o.k, o.k, don't shout, I get it, the Irish players really are as good as you are all telling us especially the Leinster one's

The proof is there when there is an all irish final in the HEC. Also, the proof is there that internationally they do not even play the same type of game they do for their provinces. Hence why for the provinces they succeed, and internationally they fail. Simple.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

rodders wrote:Lydiate is a poor man's Simon Easterbuy, he must have the world best agent thats all I have to say .

If he was Irish he'd be carrying Ferris kit bag .

But it is all about the balance rodders! None of the NZ backrow would play for the welsh side! It would totally destroy the balance!

Here is my opinion on the welsh backrow. Warburton is world class. Lydiate and Faletau are good players. But as a whole, they look much better than they really are. Why? Because of the welsh back line. The big running centres and wingers for Wales give the forward momentum needed, and the welsh back row does not have to do half as much work. If you put the welsh backrow with the irish/french/australian backs, they wouldn't look half as good. They need big running backs to work with.

You obviously have not watched many Dragons games then, where Faletau has been having numerous MOM awards even when on the loosing side, I have watched him make thirty and forty yard breaks, I tell you the boy is quick for a teenager. Also, the Dragons have far from a big set of backs to accomodate him.

Thats more or less what I think Rory.

It's much easier to look good on the front foot. Jamie Roberts is a backrowers dream. He puts the team on the front foot and the backrow are always hitting rucks from behind rather than having to backtrack to go through the gate.

That doesn't mean they aren't quality players, and I'm joking about Lydiate , but certainly they aren't carrying their teams attacks like the Irish backrow have had to.

rodders

Lets see whos carrying who's kitbag next year for the lions shall we?

Rory

I saw all of Ferris's tackles, I liked the one in particular that allowed 1/2p to slot it over for the game, thats a huge error under pressure!

You are right, the likes of Roberts, North and Cuthbert help the back row out, but if Ireland aren't clever enough to do similar who's problem is this? The game is ever changing, and if teams and players don't keep up they fall behind!

Plus I think your underestimating Lydiate, he is partly the reason Warbs has the licence to go looking for the ball, if Ferris was at 6 Warbs would have to be more conservative!!!