Leinster Hype?

First topic message reminder :

So, do we believe it or not? Alot of talk about them being the best Heiniken Cup side ever and even being right up there with the best Southern Hemisphere clubs. I have also read that they would be able to match international sides. Are people getting carried away? I thought Ulster were very dissapointing. Clermont would have beaten them comfortably.

But can we forget about the other great Heiniken Cup teams? Leicester? Wasps? Toulouse? Leinster are having their moment now but Im not so sure they beat those previous great teams.....

They are the best side in Europe and probably the most dominant side the HC has ever seen. They have a lot of current internationals in their lineup who get very well looked after. Its basically like a mini international side.

Would they be able to match SH S15 rugby? No clue. I'd love to see that though.

Could they beat internationals sides? Maybe got a shot against NH international side. Probably a boxers chance against South Africa and Australia but absolutely zero chance against the All Blacks.

does anyone know what the record has been for most consecutive wins in the HC?

Welshmushroom wrote:They are the best side in Europe and probably the most dominant side the HC has ever seen. They have a lot of current internationals in their lineup who get very well looked after. Its basically like a mini international side.

Would they be able to match SH S15 rugby? No clue. I'd love to see that though.

Could they beat internationals sides? Maybe got a shot against NH international side. Probably a boxers chance against South Africa and Australia but absolutely zero chance against the All Blacks.

They would beat Ireland, no doubt about that even though Ireland would have better players.

beshocked wrote:Leinster definitely value the HC far above the Pro12.

Heaslip has played 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC).
Darcy - 7 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Kearney - 6 games(Pro12), 9 games (HC)
BOD - 3 games (Pro12), 3 games (HC)
SOB - 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
M.Ross - 8 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Sexton - 7 games (Pro12), 8 games (HC)

You do realize that those players missed 10 games in the Pro12 because of the World Cup and the 6N.
To which you can probably add, on average, 2 games where they were forced to rest them by the IRFU.

So BOD apart none of those players missed more than 5 games in the Pro12 where they were available and that doesn't take into account injuries which would reduce the figure further. The World Cup total distorted the stats for this year.

Yes I know profitius the foreigners are played a lot but they are ultimately not the true heartbeat of Leinster. It's the likes of BOD,Sexton,Kearney,SOB and Heaslip who really make Leinster tick.

Not saying the foreigners aren't important but they aren't the real posterboys of Leinster.

Secretfly not saying Leinster sacrificed the league. Leinster have good strength in depth and are able to do this because of the way the Pro12 is.

Understrength sides in the Pro12 are rife which means rotation is openly encouraged.

Don't tell me that a Leinster side without SOB,Heaslip,BOD,Sexton etc is full strength.


My point is that a fair proportion of Leinster's best players play a low proportion of Pro12 rugby.

Leinster bring their best to the HC and why not.

I think Leinster are a great side because they can up their game.

Leicester, Saracens rotate on a regular basis.

Welshmushroom wrote:They are the best side in Europe and probably the most dominant side the HC has ever seen. They have a lot of current internationals in their lineup who get very well looked after. Its basically like a mini international side.

Would they be able to match SH S15 rugby? No clue. I'd love to see that though.

Could they beat internationals sides? Maybe got a shot against NH international side. Probably a boxers chance against South Africa and Australia but absolutely zero chance against the All Blacks.

I know what you're saying and I'd probably agree with all of it, mushroom. But your comment just strikes me as interesting because it just highlights what we all tend to accept blindly without thinking about it because tradition kind of dictates it to be true. That is to say, we all generally tend to believe that an International side MUST come from a conglomerate of sides in any given country. Meaning, that you never will get the best players in the nation playing all on one side.

It might be tradition and good National inclusive coaching (keeping everyone happy!) that keeps that going but I dont necessarily think in this new age, where exceptional detail goes into creating players at clubs and managing them and keeping them super fit and giving them buckets of stamina, that it is necessarily always true. I know Leinster have their foreigns and therefore would need some subsidising from other Provinces for International but I really think with one or two others Leinster would put forward a much more potent International side right now than the one that turns up. That's not to denegrate the other Provinces - they're going through coaching changes or are deep into developing and progressing... BUT, the players who are ready now to compete at International level are mostly operating in Leinster. So the legend isn't always true is all I'm saying. I think Leinster right now with the extra players needed to fill in for our foreigns and with Leinster's coach, would give New Zealand a much tougher time than the side that will probably show up in New Zealand this summer

biltongbek wrote:does anyone know what the record has been for most consecutive wins in the HC?

Munster had 13 i think, we are currently 15 games unbeaten and 8 wins in a row.

Luckless, i take your point about us looking toothless against Glasgow but we were 19-3 up at one stage and after we had the try disallowed for offside i think the players realised there was nothing to be gained from showing the world our playbook and giving Ulster (sunning themselves in Portugal at the time) a chance to analyse our play. We didn't employ a shooter, we didn't really run any first phase plays off set piece, we made very simple choices in the lineouts etc. You get no bonus points in a knockout semi final.

I do agree that we were toothless but i think there were mitigating factors. We aren't an all out attacking team playing at top gear in everygame and nobody should claim that we are (which is what i think you were responding to) but hardly any team are and if they do play like that, they won't be winning for long.

You get no bonus points in a knockout semi final.

You can get injured though...

Mickado wrote:

biltongbek wrote:does anyone know what the record has been for most consecutive wins in the HC?

Munster had 13 i think, we are currently 15 games unbeaten and 8 wins in a row.

That's pretty handy. The 2002 (and a bit of '03) Crusaders managed a 15 game winning streak, something no-one else down-under has looked like matching.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Mickado wrote:

biltongbek wrote:does anyone know what the record has been for most consecutive wins in the HC?

Munster had 13 i think, we are currently 15 games unbeaten and 8 wins in a row.

That's pretty handy. The 2002 (and a bit of '03) Crusaders managed a 15 game winning streak, something no-one else down-under has looked like matching.

Why do you keep doing this to me?

Good grief, it's like the old 606 on here. A decent poster gives a reasoned opinion and is torn to shreds. I wonder if we'll see the very same hatchet men decrying the lack of proper debate on here shortly on another thread.

Something for Leinster supporters to think about:
1 anything less than winning it next year will be a failure
2 you're one rule change or IRB interpretation directive away from falling back to the pack a la Munster
3 do you really expect supporters of other teams to throw palm leaves on the road in front of your team bus?
4 why should you care if people claim you are over hyped or not, you can point to the results.

Personally I believe that most of the hype is justified, unlike your reaction to a particularly inoffensive post from Luckless_Pedestrian.

Glas a du wrote:Good grief, it's like the old 606 on here. A decent poster gives a reasoned opinion and is torn to shreds. I wonder if we'll see the very same hatchet men decrying the lack of proper debate on here shortly on another thread.

Something for Leinster supporters to think about:
1 anything less than winning it next year will be a failure
2 you're one rule change or IRB interpretation directive away from falling back to the pack a la Munster
3 do you really expect supporters of other teams to throw palm leaves on the road in front of your team bus?
4 why should you care if people claim you are over hyped or not, you can point to the results.

Personally I believe that most of the hype is justified, unlike your reaction to a particularly inoffensive post from Luckless_Pedestrian.

I'm going to assume you're not referring to the perfectly reasonable response i gave?

No. I won't name names, but you and they know who they are.

Well, so far I see comments like "Leinster are overhyped" or "Leinster are not as good as people think" etc, without any reasons actually given as to why they are overhyped, why they are not as good as people think etc. Then people give them the facts, and then they moan that they aren't allowed to give an opinion about Leinster. Well sure you can, but you might as well back it up. Why are Leinster overhyped/not as good etc? To me it really does sound like people are bitter about Leinster's success more than anything.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well, so far I see comments like "Leinster are overhyped" or "Leinster are not as good as people think" etc, without any reasons actually given as to why they are overhyped, why they are not as good as people think etc. Then people give them the facts, and then they moan that they aren't allowed to give an opinion about Leinster. Well sure you can, but you might as well back it up. Why are Leinster overhyped/not as good etc? To me it really does sound like people are bitter about Leinster's success more than anything.

Rory, I've seen some good, well backed up comments and some bad ones on both sides of the debate.

What is the hype though? I don't even get the point of this thread.

So far the only poster to make any reasonable argument about why Leinster aren't as good as previous teams in the HEC's history, is fa0019. He isn't having a dig at Leinster either, he isn't saying they are overhyped (which makes no sense anyway) and he is just suggesting that Leinster might not be as good as some previous teams in the HEC. Which is fair enough, he listed some great teams.

Most people however are just coming across extremely bitter and grumpy about Leinster's success.

Well, you can put up a thread that says "Is this team overhyped?"

then by virtue of the title alone the perception is already created.

Who is overhyping them though? Currently, they are the best team in Europe based on their achievements. There was one poster who said they could beat NZ, and made a thread about it, and all the Leinster fans told him it was a stupid thread.

Glas a du wrote:Good grief, it's like the old 606 on here. A decent poster gives a reasoned opinion and is torn to shreds. I wonder if we'll see the very same hatchet men decrying the lack of proper debate on here shortly on another thread.

Something for Leinster supporters to think about:
1 anything less than winning it next year will be a failure
2 you're one rule change or IRB interpretation directive away from falling back to the pack a la Munster
3 do you really expect supporters of other teams to throw palm leaves on the road in front of your team bus?
4 why should you care if people claim you are over hyped or not, you can point to the results.

Personally I believe that most of the hype is justified, unlike your reaction to a particularly inoffensive post from Luckless_Pedestrian.

And the "inoffensive" responses from most posters? You're right Glas, the over-reaction from some quarters outside Leinster to a Leinster HC win is not over-hyped, just over-played.

"Well played lads, just to remind you's, you're not the best though...the best is always next year and probably Clermont on a good day with the right sparrows flying over the stadium and because they is French, see.... and them rule changes............them rule changes "

I don't think Leinster loll on the ball too long behind a scrum though , Glas..but thanks for the radar report

I think when the best some people can do is begrudgingly acknowledge Leinster as the best side in Europe, after winning back to back titles and 3 out of 4 then you have to assume that there are a few sour grapes around.

That is not a standard run of the mill achievement. It's a level of dominance that no other side has achieved in HEC history and should be acknowledged as such.

I don't blame some of the Leinster fans getting touchy about people claiming they are overhyped. Credit should be given where it is due.

rodders wrote:I think when the best some people can do is begrudgingly acknowledge Leinster as the best side in Europe, after winning back to back titles and 3 out of 4 then you have to assume that there are a few sour grapes around.

That is not a standard run of the mill achievement. It's a level of dominance that no other side has achieved in HEC history and should be acknowledged as such.

I don't blame some of the Leinster fans getting touchy about people claiming they are overhyped. Credit should be given where it is due.

The actual problem I have with the whole deal, Rodders, is the posters who go blind when they see posts from Leinster supporters admitting that they are not Gods, not unbeatable, not invincible and not going to be upstairs looking down at everyone else forever. Many of us have openly admitted that they are a Great side but that it is open season again next year on their pretensions. They have no god given rights or skills to prosper forever and won't do. But what they have is the present - and it is a proven present based on the past totted up and added to this year. That suggests one of the best sides to ever existed in the professional age of European rugby, it's acknowledged as such by many commentators across the water, it's nothing to be embarrassed about and we'll say it openly...without the coyness that usually goes with Irish sport and the word success.

We get told we're too meek when we go International (afraid to win, lovin' being underdogs too much)..and when we challenge those who say Leinster ain't all that, we're told we're arrogant and offensive. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

C'est la vie , as the French contingent of players who play for Clermont say.

Its tough at the top fly ..... feic off ya bollix you'll get no sympathy this way ......

Conclusion; Leinster are the best side in Europe and deserve respect. Can't wait until they come to Ravenhill, our lads are going to get torn into them in a big way. Bring them on.

Notch wrote:Conclusion; Leinster are the best side in Europe and deserve respect. Can't wait until they come to Ravenhill, our lads are going to get torn into them in a big way. Bring them on.

Well said

I have no problems with Leinster fans talking up their team. Given the frustrations with Kidney and their inability to replicate their club success at national level, I think it's natural to want to go one step further and say they could compete with S15 teams and national teams. And to be honest I think they could win their fair share in that department. I'm not saying it's fantasy to think they could beat a S15 side or a national team. The reason why we don't get these games is when do you play them and where do you play them? The calendar is chockers already without adding more games to it.

I think what speaks more volumes though is making the comparison full stop. You never heard the Reds supporters say last year I think we could beat Leinster, Wales, Ireland or France. It was enough to win. Leinster are a special team and are building a legacy in Europe. What's wrong with saying just that? Let the talk centre on European club rugby. That's where they won and that's where they're making a name for themselves.

SecretFly wrote: C'est la vie , as the French contingent of players who play for Clermont say.

quite an unnecessary dig at Clermont here monsieur Fly ...

... as am pretty sure Clermont foreign contingent is offered french lessons

You keep mentioning Clermont, Fly. Methinks you know in your heart that you got away with a hell of a lot in the semi final and were lucky to squeak through.

Rodders, credit is being given where it's due. The results speak for themselves. All I'll say is that if it was the Dragons who'd achieved what Leinster have achieved (okay, stop sniggering), I wouldn't give a flying fox what anyone thought of us.

Fair enough Luckless. If it was the dragons then I'd hope they would get the credit they deserve too .

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You keep mentioning Clermont, Fly. Methinks you know in your heart that you got away with a hell of a lot in the semi final and were lucky to squeak through.

Rodders, credit is being given where it's due. The results speak for themselves. All I'll say is that if it was the Dragons who'd achieved what Leinster have achieved (okay, stop sniggering), I wouldn't give a flying fox what anyone thought of us.

LP, this is about Leinster and not the Dragons.....

But I do take the point about the team you support. I don't see too many welshmen who care that you won the last grand slam due to a poor reffing decision and the match against Ireland the previous year through cheating.

And I don't blame them !!!

last grand slam due to a poor reffing decision

Sorry, make it 3 reffing decisions.

1. Scotland
2. England
3. Ireland

Two words, Boyne: bribery works.

Well I'd like to congratuate Wales and Leinster on their well deserved GS and HEC wins respectively..... ......

I doesn't really pain me to say it does it ? - but Leinster is a pretty good side - - and a pleasure to watch - - & to be honest if the Irish side had a lot of those Munster guys removed and replaced with Leinster guys apart from POC in second row and Cave for Earls (bench) then you would have to think that selection was worth a shot. (Also not so sure about Trimble any more though he should have been played instead of Earls last WC)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You keep mentioning Clermont, Fly. Methinks you know in your heart that you got away with a hell of a lot in the semi final and were lucky to squeak through.

Rodders, credit is being given where it's due. The results speak for themselves. All I'll say is that if it was the Dragons who'd achieved what Leinster have achieved (okay, stop sniggering), I wouldn't give a flying fox what anyone thought of us.

Clermont are the sweethearts of the What If brigade...and I don't blame them. This is sport and we all have our sweethearts. Clermont, Clermont...it's all I heard this season. Good side but haven't won it once never mind three times. But yet, on Sky sport, they were the 'star-studded' side when they met Leinster. How much do you have to do to be a European star-studded side in this here Europe?

People can say what they like, I already said I enjoy the arguments and counter-arguments. That's the only reason for 606. But I'll also choose my own words..and highlighting 'Clermont' in a lighthearted stab at the number of times I heard them mentioned throughout the HC (AND in these recent threads...do a check) might be something I'll continue for a few days. We'll see how I feel about it.

Next?

Next - former sponsors of Leicester. Now I begrudged them their success, I'll make no secret of that.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Next - former sponsors of Leicester. Now I begrudged them their success, I'll make no secret of that.

You Is totally out of order on that one Luckless!! What a bloody dirty insult on my beautiful boys in blue!

Yeah well I think Buddy Holly is well over rated.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I have no problems with Leinster fans talking up their team. Given the frustrations with Kidney and their inability to replicate their club success at national level, I think it's natural to want to go one step further and say they could compete with S15 teams and national teams. And to be honest I think they could win their fair share in that department. I'm not saying it's fantasy to think they could beat a S15 side or a national team. The reason why we don't get these games is when do you play them and where do you play them? The calendar is chockers already without adding more games to it.

I think what speaks more volumes though is making the comparison full stop. You never heard the Reds supporters say last year I think we could beat Leinster, Wales, Ireland or France. It was enough to win. Leinster are a special team and are building a legacy in Europe. What's wrong with saying just that? Let the talk centre on European club rugby. That's where they won and that's where they're making a name for themselves.

Because here in Europe we are obsessed with comparisons to the SH. While the SH are relatively oblivious to goings on in this part of the world. I have just read a quote from Graham Henry when asked who he thought would win between Clermont and Leinster, he didn't know anything about the game, which says more about his lack of awareness of what's actually going on than anything else.

It is this blissful ignorance of all things north that frustrates the hell out of the NH. We want to be noticed and are insecure about our relative positions in the world game. The problem is that although there was equal representation from both hemispheres in the recent WC semi-finals (and IMHO the SH will be lucky to have one in the next), the attitude persists that whatever you achieve in Europe will never be enough. Equally the S15 is touted as being light years ahead of the HC. By what measure?

Wales win the Grand Slam and the immediate reaction is, yes but what about the SH? There is a begrudgery amongst the home nations that not many will admit to but is there for all to see on forums such as this. Especially amongst the home nations.

While the French have been relatively successful against the SH, they're sometimes put in the same category as the SH in this regard ('Leinster were lucky in the semi against a star studded Clermont').

So don't be surprised by the banter. It's in our DNA and it's only a game anyway!

I have no idea what way the thread has gone as i wont read it all but for my mind there is no hype anymore about Leinster. It is all substance.

Glas a du wrote:Yeah well I think Buddy Holly is well over rated.

I honestly think the Beatles are the most overhyped band ever. A poor man's Oasis, and they were rubbish too.....

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Yeah well I think Buddy Holly is well over rated.

I honestly think the Beatles are the most overhyped band ever. A poor man's Oasis, and they were rubbish too.....

You take that back.

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Yeah well I think Buddy Holly is well over rated.

I honestly think the Beatles are the most overhyped band ever. A poor man's Oasis, and they were rubbish too.....

Oasis were completely over hyped. I honestly dont know which of the Gallagher brothers were more tone deaf. I reckon it was Rory though.

mankiaow wrote:
So don't be surprised by the banter. It's in our DNA and it's only a game anyway!

That sums it up nicely, mankiaow.

Yeah, i'm going to take serious exception to that Rods.

Abbey Road is the finest album of all time.

Agreed that the Beatles are massively overrated though. There are many bands from that era that I prefer.

You take that back.

Everything changes but you, asore