Leinster Hype?

First topic message reminder :

So, do we believe it or not? Alot of talk about them being the best Heiniken Cup side ever and even being right up there with the best Southern Hemisphere clubs. I have also read that they would be able to match international sides. Are people getting carried away? I thought Ulster were very dissapointing. Clermont would have beaten them comfortably.

But can we forget about the other great Heiniken Cup teams? Leicester? Wasps? Toulouse? Leinster are having their moment now but Im not so sure they beat those previous great teams.....

Which is why I said its just my opinion.... its a question with no right or wrong answer.

Longevity isn't the key to greatness... if it is then well Chris Paterson is the best fullback Scotland have ever had. Forget Irvine or Hastings... he was a top pro for more which means he by default is a better player. Right??? well I think you'd find anyone bar Paterson's grandmother likely to disagree to the above statement.

That Leicester pack was pretty much done and dusted from 03-04 onwards..... Rowntree, West, Garforth, Johnson, Back were all at the twilight of their careers.

Leinster should be applauded for winning back to back titles and 3 in 4 years. Its something no team has done in the HC so they should be applauded... but it doesn't mean they are automatically the best side in HC history... well unless you're basing your decision on a maths based computer programme rather than your own individual thoughts on the question.
They are the most successful team in terms of a group of players and what they have achieved in the competition.

Yes, it is all relative. No need for everyone to get uptight about it. We get precious about our own and we like to think that history recalls them - that's why I mentioned Munster when someone seemed to have forgotten they had their 'great' period too.

I think the challenge of Europe is so hot in terms of who is best now and who was best then because of the very history of the competition - great sides remembered and then knowing you are now part of that history. I don't think any of us forget the history or the greats - indeed, we have to remember them all or winning the thing itself becomes meaningless. Winning it is giving yourself the rights to be mentioned alongside those past greats.

Leinster's time will sweep on and past and another one or two sides will take the mantle..and then they'll be happy to compare themselves with the history of Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Munster and Wasps etc.

Well in my opinion longevity does come into it. Also if you take into account that several members of our pack are very young and not even near their peak of potential (Cian Healy was 21 when he won his first HC) then I think that our pack is the best ever. Also for all the talk before this game that our pack was vulnerable our forwards scored five tries, one from a driving maul and 2 from scrum turnovers. Anyway, the question was to do with the best team, not the best pack.

Leinster have produced a cohesive proposition with a dozen or so current internationals from the same test side, who are always available for the HC. They play a handful of league games, so their second string players are a credit to the team and also a reflection on the rest of the R12.
That combination of experience and continuity in the key positions are factors very few if any other franchises or clubs can currently match. It has set a benchmark on what centrally controlled sides can produce and the reaction of the French and English clubs who provide the critical mass and hence finances will be fascinating both off and subsequently on the pitch.

While Leinster can hold onto their first team, most would expect their successful run to continue.

fantastic achievement and a great weekend.

Ulster definitely deserved to get to the final look at the group they came through. They were well beaten by a great team on Saturday. 3 titles in 4 years is absolutely fantastic and done playing great rugby. Their fans were a credit and took a heavy defeat with great humour and grace.

As fly says us Leinster fans need to enjoy our current dominance. It will not last forever as Munster have found out. Sport is cyclical

Can someone start up a thread for the NZ squad announced : ) Im dipping my pen in arsenic to prepare it for a hungover rant at Declan Kidney

Leinster are the best side in Europe by a country mile. Not a shadow of doubt about it. 3 wins in 4 year makes them the best of the lot, no doubt about it and in my opinion they are getting better every season.

rodders wrote:Leinster are the best side in Europe by a country mile. Not a shadow of doubt about it. 3 wins in 4 year makes them the best of the lot, no doubt about it and in my opinion they are getting better every season.

But they did not beat clermont by a country mile at all? But for a very fine margin it could have been Clermont in final. The Ospreys I am sure will give them a tough game for the Rabo12. This is why I think they are overhyped. I do not think they are better than the likes of Clermont by a country mile. I think its quite close. It is the same when people say Wales are the best side in the Northern Hemisphere by a mile because they won the Grand Slam but I do not think they were the best team in the competition hands down. The Ireland and England games could have gone either way!

Every game can go any way. Even the final could have been different if we had a bit more composure in Leinsters 22 and Terblanche didn't get binned. There are always fine margins between winning and losing but great sides tend to end up on the right side of the scoreline more often than not and thats what Leinster do.

I've watched both sides very closely, we played Clermont twice this season and there's no doubt in my mind who the better side is.

They trounced every team they came up against apart from Clermont who the beat on their own soil - and nobody beats Clermont on their own soil.

I concur with the above - best side in Europe by a considerable margin this season.

Some people seem very bitter about Leinster and their achievements, and just don't seem to be able to accept it. Bit sad really.

Gordy, what team do you support? Out of interest..

rodders wrote:Every game can go any way. Even the final could have been different if we had a bit more composure in Leinsters 22 and Terblanche didn't get binned. There are always fine margins between winning and losing but great sides tend to end up on the right side of the scoreline more often than not and thats what Leinster do.

I've watched both sides very closely, we played Clermont twice this season and there's no doubt in my mind who the better side is.

Sorry Rodders I seem to have a hazy memory here. Didn't Ulster beat this fabled Clermont team in this years competition? I just wondered because it seems Clermont are the only team capable of beating Leinster. But if Ulster beat Clermont then Ulster must be capable of beating Leinster. But Leinster beat Ulster. So in some people's opinion that clearly means that Clermont in fact are better than Ulster and could beat Leinster. Do you follow this perfectly reasonable and sensible logic?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Some people seem very bitter about Leinster and their achievements, and just don't seem to be able to accept it. Bit sad really.

It is sad but maybe also understandable... fans of other sides or other regions of Europe will always want to be there themselves and the first job of wanting to be there yourself is that you tend to talk down the present incumbant. The sad bit is that those who would wish their side could emulate Leinster or any of the other HC great sides would love to think that others would then look up to their side and go 'Ooh Ahh, ain't they good!'

The fact is you don't win three HCs in this Europe of the big teams, big money, big foreign stars, big science of fitness and training and call it average, or strokes of luck, or roughtly on par with your nearest rivals. Clermont have stars but they've never won it - they have to win it three times - not once - to be compared to Leinster. The HC is what it is... the competition in Europe that divides the cream from the milk. You can't have it both ways.... want it yet talk the achievements of getting it down.

The Ulster team would NOT have been dissected in the same manner by Clermont. Ulster are HC runners-up. They also have bragging rights over those who didn't make it to the final yet predict what another side who didn't get to the final might have done to them.

Hook if any side is hyped it's Clermont. Personally I'm not convinced they are much better than us, let alone Leinster. They finished above us in the pool but I thought head to head we were arguably better than them over two games.

People have very selective memories, Clermont maybe should have beaten Leinster at the end but then they were lucky to beat us in Clermont.

Leinster beat them on their own patch and comfortably beat us so I honestly don't know how anyone can question Leinsters supremacy this season. They've been a different class to the rest of us.

Today's (London) Times was rather complimentary about Leinster

The only club in Europe that could compete in Super Rugby

Gordy wrote:

rodders wrote:Leinster are the best side in Europe by a country mile. Not a shadow of doubt about it. 3 wins in 4 year makes them the best of the lot, no doubt about it and in my opinion they are getting better every season.

But they did not beat clermont by a country mile at all? But for a very fine margin it could have been Clermont in final. The Ospreys I am sure will give them a tough game for the Rabo12. This is why I think they are overhyped. I do not think they are better than the likes of Clermont by a country mile. I think its quite close. It is the same when people say Wales are the best side in the Northern Hemisphere by a mile because they won the Grand Slam but I do not think they were the best team in the competition hands down. The Ireland and England games could have gone either way!

Kinda agree. Clermont are pretty close to Leinsters standard. Ulster and toulouse aren't too far off either. Ulster are better than their performance in Twickers. Every other side seem to be a fair bit behind though.

Gordy wrote:

rodders wrote:Leinster are the best side in Europe by a country mile. Not a shadow of doubt about it. 3 wins in 4 year makes them the best of the lot, no doubt about it and in my opinion they are getting better every season.

But they did not beat clermont by a country mile at all? But for a very fine margin it could have been Clermont in final. The Ospreys I am sure will give them a tough game for the Rabo12. This is why I think they are overhyped. I do not think they are better than the likes of Clermont by a country mile. I think its quite close. It is the same when people say Wales are the best side in the Northern Hemisphere by a mile because they won the Grand Slam but I do not think they were the best team in the competition hands down. The Ireland and England games could have gone either way!

Kinda agree. Clermont are pretty close to Leinsters standard. Ulster and toulouse aren't too far off either. Ulster are better than their performance in Twickers. Every other side seem to be a fair bit behind though.

I think plenty of European sides could compete in Super Rugby. Very few could probably win it. But plenty of them could compete, and would be better than the weakest Super Rugby teams.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Today's (London) Times was rather complimentary about Leinster

The only club in Europe that could compete in Super Rugby

Sounds like more of a compliment to super rugby

leinsterbaby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:Today's (London) Times was rather complimentary about Leinster

The only club in Europe that could compete in Super Rugby

Sounds like more of a compliment to super rugby

I know. I had a wee chuckle when I read it . I genuinely believe that Leinster and Clermont would be pushing for playoffs berths in Super rugby, and there's plenty of teams in Europe better than the Force, Rebels, Lions and Blues this season (granted injuries have gutted most of those teams). Once the European teams adjusted to the pace of Super Rugby they'd push up a lot closer - Leinster's big gains in the last couple of seasons IMO owe a lot to the pace they play at.

The other rugby article in today's Times was a fairly balanced listing of the various arguments likely to be offered up on both sides of the French HEC-to-20-teams proposal - I was pleasantly surprised.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:Today's (London) Times was rather complimentary about Leinster

The only club in Europe that could compete in Super Rugby

Sounds like more of a compliment to super rugby

Sounds like a kiwi/oz journo!

Kiwireddevil wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:Today's (London) Times was rather complimentary about Leinster

The only club in Europe that could compete in Super Rugby

Sounds like more of a compliment to super rugby

I know. I had a wee chuckle when I read it . I genuinely believe that Leinster and Clermont would be pushing for playoffs berths in Super rugby, and there's plenty of teams in Europe better than the Force, Rebels, Lions and Blues this season (granted injuries have gutted most of those teams). Once the European teams adjusted to the pace of Super Rugby they'd push up a lot closer - Leinster's big gains in the last couple of seasons IMO owe a lot to the pace they play at.

The other rugby article in today's Times was a fairly balanced listing of the various arguments likely to be offered up on both sides of the French HEC-to-20-teams proposal - I was pleasantly surprised.

Do you have a link Kiwi? Wouldn't mind reading that.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:Today's (London) Times was rather complimentary about Leinster

The only club in Europe that could compete in Super Rugby

Sounds like more of a compliment to super rugby

I know. I had a wee chuckle when I read it . I genuinely believe that Leinster and Clermont would be pushing for playoffs berths in Super rugby, and there's plenty of teams in Europe better than the Force, Rebels, Lions and Blues this season (granted injuries have gutted most of those teams). Once the European teams adjusted to the pace of Super Rugby they'd push up a lot closer - Leinster's big gains in the last couple of seasons IMO owe a lot to the pace they play at.

The other rugby article in today's Times was a fairly balanced listing of the various arguments likely to be offered up on both sides of the French HEC-to-20-teams proposal - I was pleasantly surprised.

Do you have a link Kiwi? Wouldn't mind reading that.

I'm afraid it's behind the Murdoch pay-wall so I can't get to the link.

I'd just like to hear some logical arguments for the French proposal that aren't about greed and self interest. I'm dead set against it.

I'd love it if a few super rugby teams played European teams. Leinster played the Queensland reds a few seasons back in a friendly and won comfortably. At the moment teams in the north gets little or no respect from southern hemisphere people.

Gordy wrote:

rodders wrote:Leinster are the best side in Europe by a country mile. Not a shadow of doubt about it. 3 wins in 4 year makes them the best of the lot, no doubt about it and in my opinion they are getting better every season.

But they did not beat clermont by a country mile at all? But for a very fine margin it could have been Clermont in final. The Ospreys I am sure will give them a tough game for the Rabo12. This is why I think they are overhyped. I do not think they are better than the likes of Clermont by a country mile. I think its quite close. It is the same when people say Wales are the best side in the Northern Hemisphere by a mile because they won the Grand Slam but I do not think they were the best team in the competition hands down. The Ireland and England games could have gone either way!

Don't forget that Clermont got the home draw and the stadium was packed with their fans. Leinster were a bit lucky alright in that they almost blew it despite dominating the second half.

I honestly feel that Leinster have the makings of being very dominant for years to come. With the setup they have and the players that they already have and can attract, they will be flying high for sometime.

No hype at all, just good old fashioned self belief.

Clermont may have "nearly" beaten us but as was pointed out Ulster had a better head to head than them this year and we HAMMERED them last year.

Being the best team in Europe doesn't mean you have to win every game by 50.

It means even when you are not at your best you keep on winning.

Winning 3 out of the last 4 is dominanat in anyone's book.

Currently the best team in Europe, no doubt.

I personally think when you look at the european teams the way I understand it is that the squads are big and due to the intermingled competitions clubs/regions won't play their BEST team for every competition week in and week out.


This means that you won't perform at your best every game.

Theres a perfectly valid argument to say Leinster are the best club/province in Europe at the moment but I am reading things like they are the best club/provincial side of all time, that they are the best in Europe by a country mile, that they would beat the top Southern Hemisphere sides and so forth which is overhype. The gap between them and every other side out there at the moment or every top side in history is nowhere near the chasm that is being suggested by many. Its small, if at all.

Good point Bil, very true. Leinster may not perform to 100% in every match but from the A team to the Rabo team to the HC team they do at least all share the same style of play, which is the sign of a great team imo.

Just look at the last four years in the HC

Tolouse
Leicester x 2
Wasps
Munster


All these giants of European Rugby beaten by Leinster


Look at last years pool


Leinster
Saracens
Clermont
Metro

English champions beaten home and away, French champions beaten at home and bonus point away, and Metro a team full of stars smashed both home and away.
That was arguably the toughest Pool ever to appear and Leinster walked it. Then to humble Leicester in the qf and Tolouse in the semi topped off with THAT final, and then to do it all again this year. They are with out question the best European side there has ever been



However Tolouse for me still the best club as they have managed to be pretty much there or there about for 16 years.

Shauna784 wrote:I personally don't think Clermont could have beaten Leinster yesterday, they were like a team possessed.

Wasn't there only about ten points in it with ten minutes to play?

Leinster are a very, very good side and they play a great brand of rugby to watch; but yes, they're being overhyped.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Shauna784 wrote:I personally don't think Clermont could have beaten Leinster yesterday, they were like a team possessed.

Wasn't there only about ten points in it with ten minutes to play?

Leinster are a very, very good side and they play a great brand of rugby to watch; but yes, they're being overhyped.

Oh the sour grapes of the Welsh.

At least we didn't rely on doggy ref calls or ball boys for our victory.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Leinster are a very, very good side and they play a great brand of rugby to watch; but yes, they're being overhyped.

What exactly is the hype?

That they are the best side in Europe? The big shiny Cup in their trophy cabinat would suggest that they are.

That they are the best team in European cup history? That could be debated but 3 wins in 4 seasons, the manner of their performances over the past two seasons and the teams they've beaten along the way have me convinced anyways.

In the past two seasons they've entered the tournament as favourites and in my opinion have rarely had to get out of second gear to win the competition. Yes they've been pushed hard but rarely have they looked like losing and when they have its tended to be down to their mistakes, like in Clermont, rather than the opposition.

The win over Toulouse last season was a watershed game, the best club game I've ever seen and since then they've got better and better.

The most telling moment about this Leinster side was when they held Montpellier in Dublin from scoring after 15 minutes of sustained pressure on their line and then went up the other end and scored first go.

Not only are they the most innovative attacking side around, their defensive organisation and commitment is unparalled right now and thats what sets them apart from the rest.

Boyne, what does my nationality have to do with anything?

Because it's completely hypocritical, that's why.

Someone from Wales giving out about class teams is hypocritical, given your devalued Slam.

We're talking about Leinster here, not Wales. Does my nationality mean I'm not allowed to comment?

Leinster are a fine team but they're not the irresistible force they're being made out to be. They were toothless for long periods against Glasgow the other week, for example.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Shauna784 wrote:I personally don't think Clermont could have beaten Leinster yesterday, they were like a team possessed.

Wasn't there only about ten points in it with ten minutes to play?

Leinster are a very, very good side and they play a great brand of rugby to watch; but yes, they're being overhyped.

Unlike Leicester back in the day? When they ramrodded through milkmen and doctors who had just changed jobs to become something called a professional rugby player. Or the great Toulouse when they surfed through an equal smattering of eejits and chancers who called themselves rugby players. Oh they were the Real giants in them days... all the lads on TV say so, so it must be true.

Nothing is invincible and you'll find few if any Leinster fans who claim invincibility for their side. We worry about next week and a really strong Ospreys side taking the opportunity of two titles in the same year from our team.

We don't claim they are gods, we claim (and others across the water in England claim - journalists and fellow past players amongst them) that it is a special team that have done what Leinster have done this year and that arguably they are the best squad in European history. Now that is obviously up for argument, given that there are a few of them going round in these boards but it is also declarable without any embarrassment. And that is not over-hype. That is taking into account the same record setting qualities of the sides gone and comparing and contrasting.

Leinster beat a side by the highest score in HC final history and that side that was beaten by Leinster by 42 points to 14, put its own 41 points on one of the old master sides of Leicester during the pool stages, that side beat Clermont (the allegedly 'unbeatable' side [if everything is going for them and the wind speed and air humidity is just right]; and that side (Ulster) also beat the only side that got five games from five in the pool stages, another old master side - Munster.

Nope, Leinster aren't over-hyped. The wheels could and eventually will come off the chariot and I'm sure many outsiders will cherish the moment...cause they is actin' like they're one of ye olde greats, which is a crime. But not this year. This year the proved themselves not good, not very good but great. Not invincible but definately a Great European side, by the same definition the others greats claim the title.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We're talking about Leinster here, not Wales. Does my nationality mean I'm not allowed to comment?

Leinster are a fine team but they're not the irresistible force they're being made out to be. They were toothless for long periods against Glasgow the other week, for example.

HC and Pro12 - different intensity. No surprise Leinster brought their A game for the bread and butter.

Leinster keep their best players primed and in proper shape for the real competition that matters - the HC.

Let the academy boys and B team slog it out in the Pro12.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We're talking about Leinster here, not Wales. Does my nationality mean I'm not allowed to comment?

Leinster are a fine team but they're not the irresistible force they're being made out to be. They were toothless for long periods against Glasgow the other week, for example.

Toothless? You do realise they also went to Aironi and were given a very 'tough' game? Leinster not performing in Pro12? Like Munster of old doing a phone in show on some Pro12 games? That displays weakness rather than containing the onslaughts for the right times? Leinster are in the final of Pro12 after coming top in the League stage itself. I think they've done enough there this year for now, don't you?

SecretFly wrote:The wheels could and eventually will come off the chariot and I'm sure many outsiders will cherish the moment

Fly, you seem to assume that my claiming Leinster are over-hyped means I can't wait to see them fail; not a bit of it. As I said, Leinster play a cracking brand of rugby and they're fantastic to watch.

I think I'm going to step away from this now. Clearly it's unacceptable to say anything at all against the Boys in Blue.

BoyneRFC wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Shauna784 wrote:I personally don't think Clermont could have beaten Leinster yesterday, they were like a team possessed.

Wasn't there only about ten points in it with ten minutes to play?

Leinster are a very, very good side and they play a great brand of rugby to watch; but yes, they're being overhyped.

Oh the sour grapes of the Welsh.

At least we didn't rely on doggy ref calls or ball boys for our victory.

Boyne, you'd do better to attack the argument than the motivations of the poster. If you can't trump someone's argument you're probably losing the debate.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

BoyneRFC wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Shauna784 wrote:I personally don't think Clermont could have beaten Leinster yesterday, they were like a team possessed.

Wasn't there only about ten points in it with ten minutes to play?

Leinster are a very, very good side and they play a great brand of rugby to watch; but yes, they're being overhyped.

Oh the sour grapes of the Welsh.

At least we didn't rely on doggy ref calls or ball boys for our victory.

Boyne, you'd do better to attack the argument than the motivations of the poster. If you can't trump someone's argument you're probably losing the debate.

Some would say that a debate against a disgruntled begrudger is a debate not worth having.

Leinster definitely value the HC far above the Pro12.

Heaslip has played 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC).
Darcy - 7 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Kearney - 6 games(Pro12), 9 games (HC)
BOD - 3 games (Pro12), 3 games (HC)
SOB - 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
M.Ross - 8 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Sexton - 7 games (Pro12), 8 games (HC)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think I'm going to step away from this now. Clearly it's unacceptable to say anything at all against the Boys in Blue.

Answering comments from posters with counter arguments of our own is not claiming it's 'unacceptable' to say anything against the boys in blue. You're free to say it of course and isn't that the fun of 606? - the views and counterviews. You gave your opinion - I simply countered it. You can throw another shot across by bow anytime Luckless... I promise not to get in a huff

I have no axe to grind here, Boyne. I've said elsewhere that it's great for the game that we're seeing a team that plays such an attractive brand of rugby winning titles, rather than a team playing a stifling, limited game. Leinster are European champions again. Why so chippy?

BoyneRFC wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

BoyneRFC wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Shauna784 wrote:I personally don't think Clermont could have beaten Leinster yesterday, they were like a team possessed.

Wasn't there only about ten points in it with ten minutes to play?

Leinster are a very, very good side and they play a great brand of rugby to watch; but yes, they're being overhyped.

Oh the sour grapes of the Welsh.

At least we didn't rely on doggy ref calls or ball boys for our victory.

Boyne, you'd do better to attack the argument than the motivations of the poster. If you can't trump someone's argument you're probably losing the debate.

Some would say that a debate against a disgruntled begrudger is a debate not worth having.

Possibly. But sticking your fingers in yours ears and shouting "Nyah nyah nyah, get lost you sour grapes loser" is such a mature response. Not. But if that's how you want to come across, so be it.

beshocked wrote:Leinster definitely value the HC far above the Pro12.

Heaslip has played 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC).
Darcy - 7 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Kearney - 6 games(Pro12), 9 games (HC)
BOD - 3 games (Pro12), 3 games (HC)
SOB - 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
M.Ross - 8 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Sexton - 7 games (Pro12), 8 games (HC)

Those players you mentioned. You do realise that they're Irish international players too? And BOD missed most of the season through injury.

How many games have Nacewa, Van Der Merve, Strauss etc played?

beshocked wrote:Leinster definitely value the HC far above the Pro12.

Heaslip has played 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC).
Darcy - 7 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Kearney - 6 games(Pro12), 9 games (HC)
BOD - 3 games (Pro12), 3 games (HC)
SOB - 6 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
M.Ross - 8 games (Pro12), 9 games (HC)
Sexton - 7 games (Pro12), 8 games (HC)

But they still came top in the League? To say they value HC above Pro12 is without a shadow of a doubt true. Of course it is. One is a bigger competition than the other, with more kudos when you win it. That's the same truth for all European sides btw. HC is the biggest competition they can enter, with the biggest kudos coming with it - despite what the individual leagues squeak about when they come up short in it. The players in clubs would love it, would love to play in it and love to stay for the duration in it.

But Leinster didn't sacrifice the League. They're still there and wanting to win it outright next week. How do you do that if you don't put your heart into it? And no, we all know the league isn't poor..it doesn't have journeymen players and schoolboy games. It has some of the best players in Europe and they've been proving it in league, in HC and at International level (the welsh whizz boys!) So you have to compete, you have to work hard and if you don't concentrate you don't get there.

Leinster concentrate. Why? Because not only is the Pro12 a goal in itself, it is also Vital experience for players who will one day hope to play in HC. In order for it to be vital experience for those lesser players, they have to be pushed hard in Pro12. They can't relax and think they'll have enough in them when their HC days come around.