South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

First topic message reminder :

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[gregortree]

Tri is only recapping (with some irony, grim laugh) the worst of what the naysayers have been scribbling here. None of us individually sees it that darkly overall, Tri included.
England has plenty to hope for if the positives prevail on the day.

(oh dear, I just noticed I used a Welsh phrase in there, sorry)

[formerly known as Sam]

19Waldrom is fat and unfit

Worryingly Tri Waldrom actually comes right at the top of all the Tigers fitness training it was revealed last summer (can't be bothered to find the link). It was noted that he looks truely knackered at the first sign of exercise but despite his gut has actually got some excellent stamina and pace. It's just some slightly lazy habits that Tigers have had to beat out of him over his time there.

[Triangulation]

Also dont forget that i have successfully i mean unsuccessfully tipped against every England win in the last 2 years including the wins against Ireland and France in the last 6N so it is not as if i am anything to worry about...

England 20 SA 29

You read it here first.

[Guest]

13JJ is an unknown quantity but might be a little lightweight in defence

JJ's defence is actually pretty solid. His tackle completion rate is well over 90% if I remember correctly.

[Adam]

Tri, I know you're half joking, but to address the wider point about lack of carrying in the tight 5:

I certainly don't think it's a selection issue: carrying is precisely what Hartley, Marler and Corbisiero are supposed to specialise in.....it's not as if any of them are set piece technicians!! They are go-to carriers for their club teams. Cole, too, initially caught the eye for Leicester with his workrate around the park (although admittedly more with his defence and breakdown work than his carrying).

...carrying-wise, these lads are the best we have - they simply have to up their game against perhaps the most aggressive fringe/tight defence there is

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Allow me to summarise the views us all collectivley about our team on a man by man individual basis....

3Cole doesn’t do enough in the loose
2Hartley doesn’t do enough in the loose
1Marler doesn’t do enough in the loose
4Parling does nothing other than lineout operations
5Botha does not carry and misses tackles
6Johnson does spade work well but does not carry much. He does not offer a lineout option
7Robshaw does spade work and does carry and does lead but does not offer a lineout option
8Morgan is fat and unfit
9Youngs runs well but kicks and passes poorly
10Flood does everything 6 out of 10 and goes missing in big games like v Ireland
12Tuilagi cannot or will not pass cannot or will not kick
13JJ is an unknown quantity but might be a little lightweight in defence
14Ashton cannot defend or tackle or kick
11Strettle looks like a school boy in a man's game
15Foden is not a very good kicker

16Mears is good at lineout throwing and nothing else
17Corbisiero cannot play tighthead and does not do enough in the loose
18Palmer is not considered to be an out and out 4 or a 5 and is ageing
19Waldrom is fat and unfit
20Dickson dithers and does not or cannot snipe
21Farrell can kick and tackle but that is all
22Alex Goode has good fullback skills but is slow

COME ON ENGLAND PROVE US WRONG!!!!

It may be the collective view, but it's simply not true - in the first test, TJ's lineout stats were 4/0 (espnscrum.com) - he's a regular and successful lineout jumper for Exe too

[yappysnap]

Allow me to summarise the views us all collectivley about our team on a man by man individual basis....

3Cole doesn’t do enough in the loose
2Hartley doesn’t do enough in the loose
1Marler doesn’t do enough in the loose
4Parling does nothing other than lineout operations
5Botha does not carry and misses tackles
6Johnson does spade work well but does not carry much. He does not offer a lineout option
7Robshaw does spade work and does carry and does lead but does not offer a lineout option
8Morgan is fat and unfit
9Youngs runs well but kicks and passes poorly
10Flood does everything 6 out of 10 and goes missing in big games like v Ireland
12Tuilagi cannot or will not pass cannot or will not kick
13JJ is an unknown quantity but might be a little lightweight in defence
14Ashton cannot defend or tackle or kick
11Strettle looks like a school boy in a man's game
15Foden is not a very good kicker

16Mears is good at lineout throwing and nothing else
17Corbisiero cannot play tighthead and does not do enough in the loose
18Palmer is not considered to be an out and out 4 or a 5 and is ageing
19Waldrom is fat and unfit
20Dickson dithers and does not or cannot snipe
21Farrell can kick and tackle but that is all
22Alex Goode has good fullback skills but is slow

COME ON ENGLAND PROVE US WRONG!!!!

It may be the collective view, but it's simply not true - in the first test, TJ's lineout stats were 4/0 (espnscrum.com) - he's a regular and successful lineout jumper for Exe too

Robshaw is used similarly but still people will believe otherwise! It seems like peole think that Croft is the only flanker that can be used in a lineout at times

[Biltong]

I think tomorrow's test will be a humdinger, England now know what to expect and will most definitely lift their game.

SA will need to improve.

The front row will have to make sure that technically they are up to execute without error.

Kruger and Etzebeth had an acceptable start but will have to improve on their competing on opposition line out, and specifically control the mauls better, they allowed England to come through the maul (albeit not alwys legally) but it is nevertheless not good enough, Bismarck cannot miss his jumpers tomorrow either.

Spies will have to up his execution and work rate especially in defence as he was mediocre last week.

Hougaard has a lot to improve on, his pedantic control of the ball at the back of the ruck was nothing short of pathetic last week, and his kicking was poorly execyted, he isn't Fourie du Preez and shouldn't try to be, his strengths lies in his ability to catch defences on the wrong foot and sniping little breaks.

Morne must improve on his kicking at goal.

Frans had a decent return, but needs to do a little more with ball in hand.

JP Pietersen must look for more work and get more involved on attack, not only wait for the ball to come to him.

Lambie need to show Heyneke Meyer his ability to combine on attack and why he should replace Kirchner on a permanet basis.

[HammerofThunor]

What we need to do is keep the ball a bit more. We kept kicking it back to them which allowed them to keep up the relentless physical onslaught that eventually broke England down (it was inevitable)

[Zander]

Biltong as an opposition supporter, what do you think of the new look centre partnership. Do you think it can threaten South Africa.

[Biltong]

Zander it depends how they want to use them.

The obviious option is for Flood to stand flatter running onto the defender offloading to Tuilagi who runs off his shoulder into the defence to get in behind the defence to get Jj into space. Problem with this is how keen is Tuilagi to offload?

The other option is to run Tuilagi hard at the defence with JJ running an inside line and skip pass to the wing, hoping to draw the defenders in, but then again De Villiers is experienced and should work that out, in my view the space is on the outside of de Villiers when they re attacking on our left wing. habana and de Villiers has a tendency to shoot the line and then there will be space behind then for a little chip over of space outside.

[Zander]

I fully expect England to come back fighting. Hopefully we will be far more attacking with Joseph in the backline and Flood at 10. If our forwards can get the platform, maybe England can give South Africa a run for their money. Bring on the 2nd test!

[nathan]

I fully expect England to come back fighting. Hopefully we will be far more attacking with Joseph in the backline and Flood at 10. If our forwards can get the platform, maybe England can give South Africa a run for their money. Bring on the 2nd test!

looking forward to it but i don't think we'll win, we'll put up a good fight for 60 minutes then the altitude will take's toll and we'll look tired.

[Biltong]

Me thinks this one is going to go to the wire, not feeling too confident after what I have seen this morning.

[yappysnap]

If the games as tense and close as the two we've just seen then it could be a classic.

But I worry that SA will be too big, too powerful and just too good for us.

Could be a long day at the office for the Eng boys if we can't slow everything down on their ball and stop kicking the frickin ball away.

[HQ matt]

What a day of rugby so far! Now im just worried England wont be able to live up to the standards set by their NH counterparts..

[lammergeier]

Please don't let it be such a close match - my heart can't stand it.

[Biltong]

Welcome lammergeier, who are you supporting?

[Ifandorbut]

Could some kind soul pm me a link for the match please?

Greatfully yours.

IAOB

[Guest]

IAOB

PM'd you

[Ifandorbut]

IAOB

PM'd you

Diolch,

I tried to pm you but can't as yet, so many thanks.

IAOB

[nobbled]

Can't wait to see if this backline experiment works!
If Manu can pass a few this could be interesting - or if Manu and JJ will alternate positioning depending on whether attacking or defending as has been suggested.

[screamingaddabs]

i could also do with a link if anyone has it? Please PM if you can help. Ta.

[Taylorman]

This will be interesting. Both Ireland and Wales have shown they learned truckloads from last week and if SA take the 'improve the accuracy' approach of Oz and NZ theyll also find themselves being muscled by a more in your face England.
Id said it earlier that all 3 NH teams will be desperate to win to keep the series alive and i actually thought lancasters side would be the one to improve the most.
SA are made of tough stuff though and may not fall for this a third time this weekend.

Best of luck to both. I expect a close game where England will decide a lot of the running this time.

[GavinDragon]

i want eng to win for NH rugby, but then at the same time if they do it will make me even more frustrated at our loss earlier!

[timhen]

They certainly made a point of the analysis of Youngs' kicking on Sky.

[FerN]

Almost time - hope we can keep the English out. Seems like the NH teams learned truck loads from last week.

[mystiroakey]

england are gonna do it- come on the england

[yappysnap]

Literally bricking it now!

C'mon England!

[yappysnap]

Crap!

[mystiroakey]

wooosh- ride this out england.. come on deal with this scrum!!

[Lord Sprey]

TRY

[FerN]

I thought the English pack was bigger, but on SuperSport it says SA's pack is about 15kg's heavier.

Good try for Alberts.

[mystiroakey]

[screamingaddabs]

what the bloomin' 'ell was that? Softest try I've ever seen!

[timhen]

That was shocking!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

19Waldrom is fat and unfit

compared to morgan? no

[mystiroakey]

we getting battered

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Oh dear! This could get messy. England need to get their act together

[screamingaddabs]

Well England can have all the incredible attack in the world, but if they don't have the ball this is going to be very very painful.

[rhonddasmackhead]

Big score on its way.

[FerN]

Try for Bissie

[formerly known as Sam]

That ball came straight out the tunnel, in contradiction to law 20.1.

"20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM

(a) The ball comes out. When the ball comes out of the scrum in any direction except the tunnel, the scrum ends"

In other words it should be a re-set scrum.

[timhen]

England not sharp or ferocious at all. They might as well not have bothered turning up.

[mattygoat]

crossing before second try?

[mystiroakey]

i cant see that down- was it conclusive- my stream on sky go is a bit random

[yappysnap]

Attack is looking good though.

[formerly known as Sam]

I thought Walsh was good in the first test, so far he is looking amatuer level. He and England need to wake up!

[FerN]

That ball came straight out the tunnel, in contradiction to law 20.1.

"20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM

(a) The ball comes out. When the ball comes out of the scrum in any direction except the tunnel, the scrum ends"

In other words it should be a re-set scrum.

Does that mean it is a re-set or does it mean it is over?

[welshy6]

not a good start for england

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