South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

First topic message reminder :

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[trebellbobaggins]

Better attitude from England in the 2nd half, but how much is that due to SA being complacent and throwing on the bench.

How much was it only that because of pathetic ref decision in the first place?

[FerN]

I NEVER WANT TO SEE ADRIAAN STRAUSS IN A BOK JERSEY again!!!! Biltong do you now agree Bismarck is the best in the world and should not be replaced? you're constantly saying Adriaan strauss is better but he's been utter shyte , springbok scrum has been crap ever since he came on

It wasn't him, it was the guy who replaced Jannie. Kept on binding on the arm and scrumming in.

[FerN]

Well done SA, you deserved the win despite the poor reffing. England seem to get better (or was it SA getting complacent)?

I think England got better, played totally different when they came out second half.

[Geordie]

No sa slowed down and changed.half.the team. We are poor. Corbs is far better than Marler though!

[damngoodOvalball]

Vickery won you the world cup.. On his own.

Is how I'd like to pretend it was.

Won ME a World Cup? Check my location. All Vickery did for me was in that Lions tour. A pretty negative contribution.

Oh come on dude, he was v good in the 3rd test in 09

[mystiroakey]

i think the commentator made a good point- you start all technical not realising the power and agression you need to play at v the boks- obviously the altitude made such a difference at the start and we got blown away

[timhen]

Congratulations SA, you fully deserved that, we were a bit more competitive in the 2nd half, but on the whole you showed us up and in the first half you put us to shame.

[sheephead]

Well played England. Thoroughly enjoyed the game from a neutrals seat .

[trebellbobaggins]

Good point from sky.

Safa coaching box is laughing at eng. they they need to use that to focus and fire themselves.

[mystiroakey]

Tim they certainly didnt show us up pal! It was a good game and they got a good win on us

[nathan]

Good point from sky.

Safa coaching box is laughing at eng. they they need to use that to focus and fire themselves.

and let's just hope that the SA coaching don't teach their players that quality. it doesnt below in rugby.

[stormers1]

Well played England, very good 2nd half.

[trebellbobaggins]

With these kids it could have been a tour from hell.

Let's hope this lot can develop as woodies kids did.

[Duty281]

Good fight from England but they lost the game in the first 20 minutes. Disappointing but it's all a learning curve, well done South Africa.

[Lord Sprey]

How long will the start of this england journey last, maybe till you start winning

[thebluesmancometh]

Ben youngs looks crushed, and fair play to him he gave everything. If he had played for Wales this morning it could've been a different game... aaahh

[nathan]

How long will the start of this england journey last, maybe till you start winning

rubbish wum...

[Biltong]

That was a huge fighback by England.

SA's bench didn't work tonight, Werener Kruger is not fit to wear the Springbok jersey, Wynand Olivier still hasn't learnt to pass. Losing willem Alberts took away our physicality.

Morne Steyn has now missed something like 20 points in the two tests.

Meyer will have to rethink a few things, it seems we only have 40 minute performances in us, that won't be good enough in the Fournations.

Some subs made no sense, why did Meyer take Habana off?

keegan Daniel, Marcel Coetzee and Pierre Spies is not a combination in the backrow that I ever want to see again.

Our focus ( or lack of it) in the second half was poor, quick tap and we stand around, over the lineout throw on our try line, those are mistakes we cannot afford to make.

Not happy.

[monty junior]

What happened to Steyn's kicking? he was hopeless.

Great game, in line with today's copetitive matches

[aitchw]

I wonder what platitudes will come from the coaching staff this time. One thing's for sure Flood has proved a point, he's the best we've got and deserves the shirt.

Well done SA, you did enough.

[Lord Sprey]

It wasn't a wum, but lets be honest, they've been saying there at the start of a journey for the last nine games. It can't be used as an excuse for much longer.

You don't here it when they win

[thebluesmancometh]

Just want to bring up the old debate of Tuilagi again. What did everyone think today?

[Biltong]

He did better at 13 last weekend

[FerN]

That was a huge fighback by England.

SA's bench didn't work tonight, Werener Kruger is not fit to wear the Springbok jersey, Wynand Olivier still hasn't learnt to pass. Losing willem Alberts took away our physicality.

Morne Steyn has now missed something like 20 points in the two tests.

Meyer will have to rethink a few things, it seems we only have 40 minute performances in us, that won't be good enough in the Fournations.

Some subs made no sense, why did Meyer take Habana off?

keegan Daniel, Marcel Coetzee and Pierre Spies is not a combination in the backrow that I ever want to see again.

Our focus ( or lack of it) in the second half was poor, quick tap and we stand around, over the lineout throw on our try line, those are mistakes we cannot afford to make.

Not happy.

Our front row also struggle after the Dups went off. I also notice Wynands inability to pass, we could have made much more of two situations if he did.

[thebluesmancometh]

As much as I argue against him, last weekend I thought he was pretty good, and maybe I wasn't giving him enough credit.. then today he righted my perception of him... very very poor.

[timhen]

Tim they certainly didnt show us up pal! It was a good game and they got a good win on us

I can't agree mystiroakey, we did OK in parts, but for the majority of the game they dominated us in terms of physicality, power and forward play. We weren't at the races in the first half.

[FerN]

Just want to bring up the old debate of Tuilagi again. What did everyone think today?

Why didn't you pass to him is my biggest question. How many times did he get the ball?

[Bullsbok]

Marcell Coetzee, Bismarck Du plessis, Eben Eztebeth,Willem alberts and Even Spies had huge games

[FerN]

Marcell Coetzee, Bismarck Du plessis, Eben Eztebeth,Willem alberts and Even Spies had huge games

Ja Spies was massive today, first time in almost 2 years I have seem him this good.

[thebluesmancometh]

He did see a little bal, normally on the crash, but again his inability to play the ball, or stay organised in defence is a real weakness! He really looked like his brothers today!

[mystiroakey]

Tim they certainly didnt show us up pal! It was a good game and they got a good win on us

I can't agree mystiroakey, we did OK in parts, but for the majority of the game they dominated us in terms of physicality, power and forward play. We weren't at the races in the first half.

first 20 mins they beat us- the next 60 i would actually say we were slightly on top.

We came back and wernt embarrased at all- such a shame we were so out of it at the start though

[Zander]

Dissapointed by England, good fight back in the second half although we shouldn't have conceded as many points in the first half. That was where the game was lost for England.

[Biltong]

Fern, I can't express how much it irritates me that Olivier is in the mix, he is $&)(@ pathetic, when he came on I almost croaked, he had two overlaps and didn't pass.

strauss and werener disappointed big time when they came on.

That second half lapses cost us 14 points and it took all the gloss off a very impressive performance of the first half.

You need to put a team away when you start like that, you don't give them the opportunity to gain confidence, you bloody break their spirit.

[bedfordwelsh]

Just want to bring up the old debate of Tuilagi again. What did everyone think today?

Personally think he has had two poor games now even fell off a few tackles which in his defence he doesn't do often.

Maybe its whose around him or maybe teams have now sussed him out, after all he's not the only big centre out here these days.

Youngs and Flood had good games and whats all this fuss about the beast, Cole beasted him in the 2nd half

[Biltong]

Marcell Coetzee, Bismarck Du plessis, Eben Eztebeth,Willem alberts and Even Spies had huge games

Ja Spies was massive today, first time in almost 2 years I have seem him this good.

Except that Spies doesn't pass.

[Bullsbok]

Fern, I can't express how much it irritates me that Olivier is in the mix, he is $&)(@ pathetic, when he came on I almost croaked, he had two overlaps and didn't pass.

strauss and werener disappointed big time when they came on.

That second half lapses cost us 14 points and it took all the gloss off a very impressive performance of the first half.

You need to put a team away when you start like that, you don't give them the opportunity to gain confidence, you bloody break their spirit.

I was think whyy or why do we need Olivier Any other center would do or better yet Meyer should call up a fullback . Jean And Frans were brilliant as a combination . They shouldnt have been split up

[damngoodOvalball]

It wasn't a wum, but lets be honest, they've been saying there at the start of a journey for the last nine games. It can't be used as an excuse for much longer.

You don't here it when they win

9 games? So we started in the middle of the RWC? To WUM successfully you need to have a grasp of the basics at least

[Biltong]

Dissapointed by England, good fight back in the second half although we shouldn't have conceded as many points in the first half. That was where the game was lost for England.

Morne Steyn didn't help our cause either, how many points did he miss today?

[thebluesmancometh]

I don't think the beast has ever been that great, he fills a whole, but essentially is a poor mans gethin.

I thought Manu was good last week, really matched the SA centre pairing, and did some decent work that didn't include his bosh. This week though... missed plenty of tackles, was over used and was a complete mess at times.

[HERSH]

We was robbed yet again.

Great effort England, if only we were playing Aus then we would have wrapped up the series today.

[wales606]

Dissapointed by England, good fight back in the second half although we shouldn't have conceded as many points in the first half. That was where the game was lost for England.

Morne Steyn didn't help our cause either, how many points did he miss today?

Why wasn't Pienaar kicking?!

[FerN]

SA made about 4 mistakes

1 - That front row replacements didn't work out.
2 - F.Steyn trying to be SBW and losing a lot of ball in contact.
3 - Habana went off and our chaces stopped almost immediately.
4 - Wynand didn't let the game flow.

SA were unlucky with:

1 - Lambie off, mess up our whole backline forcing F.Steyn back and Wynand in.
2 - Juandre going off, had us 14 men to 15 when England scored and we couldn't really contest that lineout.

But you can do nothing about the unlucky things, I think we did get the rub of the green on a lot of calls by the ref.

[thebluesmancometh]

Oval in fairness there were 5 6N games, a ba baa's game, 2 SA tests and a midweek SA ba baa's game... That is 9 mate.

In fairness I think England could be 12 months from a good side, 2-3 years from a very good side, but only if the younger players tried out now are given time to settle, and gain the experience needed to compete at this level. Constantly trying things out and plugging gaps will not take them forward.

[Zander]

Dissapointed by England, good fight back in the second half although we shouldn't have conceded as many points in the first half. That was where the game was lost for England.

Morne Steyn didn't help our cause either, how many points did he miss today?

Morne had a shocker. I don't think I've ever seen him miss that many penalties in one game.

[Bullsbok]

Dissapointed by England, good fight back in the second half although we shouldn't have conceded as many points in the first half. That was where the game was lost for England.

Morne Steyn didn't help our cause either, how many points did he miss today?

Why wasn't Pienaar kicking?!

Should have given Lambie the duties in the first half , too bad he got injured . If he's fit for the next game i think Meyer needs to play Aplon at fullback and Lambie at 10 with Morne on the Bench .

[FerN]

Dissapointed by England, good fight back in the second half although we shouldn't have conceded as many points in the first half. That was where the game was lost for England.

Morne Steyn didn't help our cause either, how many points did he miss today?

Why wasn't Pienaar kicking?!

Came on with 25 minutes to go

And Biltong, Morne missed 10 points, 2 conversions and 2 penalties.

[nathan]

It wasn't a wum, but lets be honest, they've been saying there at the start of a journey for the last nine games. It can't be used as an excuse for much longer.

You don't here it when they win

but i remember Lancaster saying it when we won games in the 6 nations.... so yes, you are wumming.

[thebluesmancometh]

HERSH

As much of a WUM you are, I actually think you may be right this time. Wales have a far superior side to England, and I'd argue a better team than this particular Aus side, but they are pathetically weak minded and still look for a 'scalp' whereas England would've been there to beat an old 'enemy' they know they can!

[rodders]

Great second half. SA were very impressive and deserved winners but England can take a lot of positives from that game.

well done both sides on a ferocious game

[wales606]

Dissapointed by England, good fight back in the second half although we shouldn't have conceded as many points in the first half. That was where the game was lost for England.

Morne Steyn didn't help our cause either, how many points did he miss today?

Why wasn't Pienaar kicking?!

Came on with 25 minutes to go

And Biltong, Morne missed 10 points, 2 conversions and 2 penalties.

He missed 5 kicks in the end I think - 3 penalties

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