Who is holding Wales back? The forwards?

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Wales' forwards did not supply our backline with go forward ball. They did not carry effectively enough and the balance was clearly wrong in the side. Gethin Jenkins was completely shattered and offered little, Adam Jones a great scrummager but again struggled to make an impact anywhere else. Can Wales afford to have players missing in attack? My answer is no. We cannot sacrifice ball carriers for the sake of reputations or the fear we may lose a few scrums.

If we look at NZ and Australia they place a much smaller emphasis on the scrum and more on the dynamic, quicker forwards to carry the ball and implement a gameplan. Wales need to shift their gameplan in this way.

The Back Row:
I start here because this is arguably Wales' strongest positions in terms of depth and quality.
Wales do have world class back row players.

Lydiate is an excellent tackler but I would like to see him carry more forcefully. He is often given the ball at a standstill (which is not his fault). Wales need to utilise his size and power running at full speed crashing into the opposition.

Warburton: A brilliant scavenger and carries well. Would like to see him get some game time at 8/6 in conjunction with tupuric in the later stages of games.

Faletau: Wales need to rediscover a gameplan that allows this guy to get into the wide channels attacking and carrying at the backlines. He has unbelievable balance, power and speed and i feel he has suffered this tour. I would like to see him returning kicks with Halfpenny and the back 3. Either in support or a first up carrier.

Ryan Jones: An excellent player that can do a job at 6/8 in the backrow. A solid performer but i still believe the above 3 mentioned are the best going forward.

Justin Tupuric: Offers more around the park in terms of support. Must get more game time. A useful weapon off the bench that wasnt utilised in Australia.

Second Row:
A good amount of depth in the Wales Squad. My favoured pairing would be Ian Evans and Bradley Davies with Alyn Wyn on the bench. A tough call between the four including charteris. Ian Evans & Alyn Wyn offer more pace as a double but Davies adds more power in the carry. Would like to see him mature and reduce his penalty count. Carrying must be from depth to aid our back row.

Front Row:
Now I'm in for it here. I look at NZ, SA and OZ and they all have a mobile front row. Gethin Jenkins is our most mobile. Adam Jones our least. Both have been excellent for Wales but lacked real bite when carrying. I would like to see more of Craig mitchel, Rees Gill and Owens. They are quick, mobile, powerful carriers. Gethin Jenkins & Adam Jones must be involved still but we have to increase the amount of speed and ball carriers on the field.

Forward Pack I think can take us forward:

1) Gill 2) Owens 3) Mitchel/Jones
4) Bradley Davies 5) Ian Evans
6) Lydiate 7) Warburton 8) Faletau

Subs: Rees, Gethin Jenkins, Alyn wyn/Charteris, Tupuric/R Jones

Our backline does not need changing but the emphasis of our gameplan must change. We apparently have this marvellous fitness but do not use it to our advantage.

The theory is we kick and chase to keep the ball in play and thus back our fitness to wear teams down. Its wrong. All we do with the southern hemisphere sides is feed the machine.

If our fitness is as good as it is we must hold on to the ball for longer periods. This means dropping loose forwards for kicks and returning them with our wingers. North and Cuthbert must touch the ball more often and the back three must support each other.

Hold on to the ball, wear teams down. Carry, carry and carry some more until they are sick of tackling. We must trust our skills at the contact area and improve the overall mobility of our fowards.

That for me is the main reason we lose to southern hemispher sides!!

The SH win has become the elephant in the room and the latest stick to beat Wales with.

But much of this is due to the expectations of press and public following increasing domination of NH results; 3 out of 7 Grand Slams is a huge achievement for any side yet alone Wales who, after years of false dawns have fulfilled their potential in Europe.

This success has created a rod for our own backs, in part its been accounted for by the fact that Wales squad is so young and has experienced a lot of success and is not handicapped by constant failure; they are a young an dconfident side used to winning. What concerns me is that Wales are now developing a losing habit against SH sides and until they break that duck they will be carrying that elephant on their back.

The fact is Wales can and have beaten Australia, in 2005 and 2008. These were not flukes as some might suggest after this years 5/5 defeats but of course they count for very little now.

It HAS to come eventually but in order for us to get the benefit pre RWC 15 it has to be this year. We have to beat Aus and in my view we need to be beating SA too. I am afraid if we don't we'll be talking about more gallant losses in the next RWC. If we can achieve that , as a young and confident side, we move out of our comfort zone and into unknown territory.

But it is totally doable; who would have predicted 3/7 Slams pre 2005?

mowgli wrote:The SH win has become the elephant in the room and the latest stick to beat Wales with.

But much of this is due to the expectations of press and public following increasing domination of NH results; 3 out of 7 Grand Slams is a huge achievement for any side yet alone Wales who, after years of false dawns have fulfilled their potential in Europe.

This success has created a rod for our own backs, in part its been accounted for by the fact that Wales squad is so young and has experienced a lot of success and is not handicapped by constant failure; they are a young an dconfident side used to winning. What concerns me is that Wales are now developing a losing habit against SH sides and until they break that duck they will be carrying that elephant on their back.

The fact is Wales can and have beaten Australia, in 2005 and 2008. These were not flukes as some might suggest after this years 5/5 defeats but of course they count for very little now.

It HAS to come eventually but in order for us to get the benefit pre RWC 15 it has to be this year. We have to beat Aus and in my view we need to be beating SA too. I am afraid if we don't we'll be talking about more gallant losses in the next RWC. If we can achieve that , as a young and confident side, we move out of our comfort zone and into unknown territory.

But it is totally doable; who would have predicted 3/7 Slams pre 2005?

Well written mate.. I think many of us agree.

It will come, hopefully in the next group of internationals...

maestegmafia wrote:

mowgli wrote:The SH win has become the elephant in the room and the latest stick to beat Wales with.

But much of this is due to the expectations of press and public following increasing domination of NH results; 3 out of 7 Grand Slams is a huge achievement for any side yet alone Wales who, after years of false dawns have fulfilled their potential in Europe.

This success has created a rod for our own backs, in part its been accounted for by the fact that Wales squad is so young and has experienced a lot of success and is not handicapped by constant failure; they are a young an dconfident side used to winning. What concerns me is that Wales are now developing a losing habit against SH sides and until they break that duck they will be carrying that elephant on their back.

The fact is Wales can and have beaten Australia, in 2005 and 2008. These were not flukes as some might suggest after this years 5/5 defeats but of course they count for very little now.

It HAS to come eventually but in order for us to get the benefit pre RWC 15 it has to be this year. We have to beat Aus and in my view we need to be beating SA too. I am afraid if we don't we'll be talking about more gallant losses in the next RWC. If we can achieve that , as a young and confident side, we move out of our comfort zone and into unknown territory.

But it is totally doable; who would have predicted 3/7 Slams pre 2005?

Well written mate.. I think many of us agree.

It will come, hopefully in the next group of internationals...

Hey there Maesteg

Mowgli
What most posters outside of Wales think is that the "slam" year were followed by 4ths and 5ths (or was it 3rds), it can be argued that England and Ireland were more consistent since 2005 (by the way thats SEVEN yrs ago) and I dont think either of their fan base expected a summer series win , so apart from the Welsh most posters would have said if your performances were say Slam followed by 2nd 2nd etc since 2005 then you would have been averaging say 4th place in the ranking and there might be a reason to assume that an average 4th place side side could beat a top 3 side in their own back yard

But you havent been the dominant NH side that you think you have been since 2005

By the way the 2005 and 2008 Oz wins was when you had an organiser for a 10, and a performing back three unit, but in Australia this summer apart from Ryan Jones I would say the rest of your back row (whether due to injury or off form) generally underperformed

Wales are currently punching above weight and playing catch up with the SH. I take nothing from our losses in Aus or to SA last RWC other than to acknowledge the gap is closing but we are still missing key aspects fo the game. Could have won and should have won are utterly meaningless, we lost as I feared we would without Roberts. Consistency is an issue for Wales no doubt, but consistently not winning the 6 Nations with Grand Slams is also an issue for the other competitors, not us, achieving the big prize in 3 out of 7 competitions.

Right now rankings mean nothing in NH rugby other than as an carrot for RWC 2015, meat for Hersh and others who insist on banging on about who got the scraps from the AB table. Until we top that ranking i am not interested in who is 5th 6th 45th ...you get the drift. Clearly the system demands we pay attention for the seedings but other than that its a crock. The NH has the 6 Nations, the SH has the championship and the RWC decides the issue. Rankings don't matter with England below us and they don't with England above us; Wales are the best side in Europe and this is because of our 6 Nations record. Of course being a Welsh fan it is somehow forbidden on here to suggest that as it inevitably polarises the debate but i stand by it and so do the results.

The 6 Nations is about 1 thing. The Grand Slam. We all know that to be the truth. 3 slams, 5th twice and 4th twice, highly indicative of the roller coaster that is Welsh rugby (I know I am on it) We don't just win it, nor do we want to, its all about the Slam....therein lies a clue about Welsh attitudes across the spectrum from press to public.

I would swap one slam for consistent 2nd/3rd (loss ) any day of the week and would be surprised to hear any fan disgree. Certainly to base an argument around consistency on coming 2nd or 3rd in the competition seems distinctly defeatist and very odd.

Yes we seem to go from high to low on a sine curve that indicates we are not dominant but the general indication of perfromance shows we are trending on the up. For us a RWC semi is a huge step, losing tight games shows progress but with a huge challenge ahead.

Lastly I don't want to talk about old news by suggesting the Slam in 2005 is relevant now, but it is the natural starting point for the Welsh up turn and whilst admittedly 7 years ago, the 2003 World Cup winners often remind us about that! This is not a Wales v England debate but I would say its a good job English and irish fans didn't expect a series win and no side is less consistent than Ireland, nor did many Welsh fans 'expect' it, the press on the other hand and the camp themselves may have talked it up too much yet again. There is nothing wrong with belief but it can result in you being hoisted by your own petard

As for your analysis of the 2005 and 2008 wins they are wins no matter how they were achieved but I think it is fair comment we miss jones and we did not have a great back row in Aus this summer, Warbs was downright poor, we lost Toby and Lydiate was quiet. Ryan was immense in the circumstances. In 2008 we had Powell at 6 and although I think his hands are terrible he is a carrier; Faletau's loss in that area was significant. In 2005 it was Charvis Williams and Owen but it was Thomas who won that game, I know because i was sat on half way. I think we have issues across the board excpet for 1/2p!

Mowgli

Fair dos mate, you have accepted other posts with good grace, and have IMHO you have given an accurate assessment here of your tour.

The three over-riding factors during Mr Gatlands (and you have to give him credit here) tenure are

1. You now are as tall and big as your English, and SH counterparts..... how the heck you did it I will never guess, but fair dos you damn well have.

2. Your fitness levels are up there with the best, I would say you are the best now, I remember past Wales teams been awesome for 40 mins then invariably run out of gas

3. You now have a mindset as a Union that you can and should win against SH teams, it was evident with how close you were to winning at least two tests and moreso how disappointed you were with the close loses

Well done Wales.............Long may it continue

fhf



good man thanks for that.

I hate the way the english welsh debate just turns into the usual rhetoric.

anyway

1. Charteris is taller! We are far too dependent on Roberts and bloody hell we miss Shane who after retiring more times than he scored tries is already back as a 2nd row in Japan.

2. I thought that we were off the pace v Aus, just enough to fail to exploit the third quarter which we usually dominate. We definitely lacked intensity and i noted that we tried offloading more in Test 3 which is a skill few teams have achieved as well as we have....we need to get it back and quick.

3. I completely agree

4. Yes Gatland is the man and No the lions can't have him....don't be surprised if he is not Lions coach now.

5. not sure if you are Scots or English...if the former you should be happy, just very very happy. To close out Aus is some achievement and the Samoa game was tight. Visser, Denton, Gray Laidlaw and Hogg all in contention for the lions and Gray is absolutely the only name i would bet on starting right now. if English, please accept my commiserations! No only joking, I think the difference between the perception of a failed tour and a somewhat successful one came down to a draw. But there is a lot more going on behind the scenes that i liek and to hear Haskell at least try and be humble suggests to me that attitudes have changed from boys on tour to lets play rugby.
Lancaster has bought himself yet more time to continue to do the good works he has started on. He might not be a banker for the RFU but he is a student of coaching and I like what he stands for.

maestegmafia wrote:

mowgli wrote:The SH win has become the elephant in the room and the latest stick to beat Wales with.

But much of this is due to the expectations of press and public following increasing domination of NH results; 3 out of 7 Grand Slams is a huge achievement for any side yet alone Wales who, after years of false dawns have fulfilled their potential in Europe.

This success has created a rod for our own backs, in part its been accounted for by the fact that Wales squad is so young and has experienced a lot of success and is not handicapped by constant failure; they are a young an dconfident side used to winning. What concerns me is that Wales are now developing a losing habit against SH sides and until they break that duck they will be carrying that elephant on their back.

The fact is Wales can and have beaten Australia, in 2005 and 2008. These were not flukes as some might suggest after this years 5/5 defeats but of course they count for very little now.

It HAS to come eventually but in order for us to get the benefit pre RWC 15 it has to be this year. We have to beat Aus and in my view we need to be beating SA too. I am afraid if we don't we'll be talking about more gallant losses in the next RWC. If we can achieve that , as a young and confident side, we move out of our comfort zone and into unknown territory.

But it is totally doable; who would have predicted 3/7 Slams pre 2005?

Well written mate.. I think many of us agree.

It will come, hopefully in the next group of internationals...

Thanks maesteg

Permian88 wrote:Wales' forwards did not supply our backline with go forward ball. They did not carry effectively enough and the balance was clearly wrong in the side. Gethin Jenkins was completely shattered and offered little, Adam Jones a great scrummager but again struggled to make an impact anywhere else. Can Wales afford to have players missing in attack? My answer is no. We cannot sacrifice ball carriers for the sake of reputations or the fear we may lose a few scrums.

If we look at NZ and Australia they place a much smaller emphasis on the scrum and more on the dynamic, quicker forwards to carry the ball and implement a gameplan. Wales need to shift their gameplan in this way.

The Back Row:
I start here because this is arguably Wales' strongest positions in terms of depth and quality.
Wales do have world class back row players.

Lydiate is an excellent tackler but I would like to see him carry more forcefully. He is often given the ball at a standstill (which is not his fault). Wales need to utilise his size and power running at full speed crashing into the opposition.

Warburton: A brilliant scavenger and carries well. Would like to see him get some game time at 8/6 in conjunction with tupuric in the later stages of games.

Faletau: Wales need to rediscover a gameplan that allows this guy to get into the wide channels attacking and carrying at the backlines. He has unbelievable balance, power and speed and i feel he has suffered this tour. I would like to see him returning kicks with Halfpenny and the back 3. Either in support or a first up carrier.

Ryan Jones: An excellent player that can do a job at 6/8 in the backrow. A solid performer but i still believe the above 3 mentioned are the best going forward.

Justin Tupuric: Offers more around the park in terms of support. Must get more game time. A useful weapon off the bench that wasnt utilised in Australia.

Second Row:
A good amount of depth in the Wales Squad. My favoured pairing would be Ian Evans and Bradley Davies with Alyn Wyn on the bench. A tough call between the four including charteris. Ian Evans & Alyn Wyn offer more pace as a double but Davies adds more power in the carry. Would like to see him mature and reduce his penalty count. Carrying must be from depth to aid our back row.

Front Row:
Now I'm in for it here. I look at NZ, SA and OZ and they all have a mobile front row. Gethin Jenkins is our most mobile. Adam Jones our least. Both have been excellent for Wales but lacked real bite when carrying. I would like to see more of Craig mitchel, Rees Gill and Owens. They are quick, mobile, powerful carriers. Gethin Jenkins & Adam Jones must be involved still but we have to increase the amount of speed and ball carriers on the field.

Forward Pack I think can take us forward:

1) Gill 2) Owens 3) Mitchel/Jones
4) Bradley Davies 5) Ian Evans
6) Lydiate 7) Warburton 8) Faletau

Subs: Rees, Gethin Jenkins, Alyn wyn/Charteris, Tupuric/R Jones

Our backline does not need changing but the emphasis of our gameplan must change. We apparently have this marvellous fitness but do not use it to our advantage.

The theory is we kick and chase to keep the ball in play and thus back our fitness to wear teams down. Its wrong. All we do with the southern hemisphere sides is feed the machine.

If our fitness is as good as it is we must hold on to the ball for longer periods. This means dropping loose forwards for kicks and returning them with our wingers. North and Cuthbert must touch the ball more often and the back three must support each other.

Hold on to the ball, wear teams down. Carry, carry and carry some more until they are sick of tackling. We must trust our skills at the contact area and improve the overall mobility of our fowards.

That for me is the main reason we lose to southern hemispher sides!!

this is all good stuff...agree with all of it. I think more offloading is required and higher intensity. More fitness, more ice facials etc.

I think our kicking game is poor and invariably lets us down.

I agree more mobility in the front row.

My 2nd row is Charters and Ian, reason being work rate. both are mobile and lumps. I do not rate bradley and AWJ is losing it a la Jenkins.

I also think Ryan is supersub from now on and Tips must get his head.

As for the backs...Shane could make something from nothing and we will miss it. We msut not become battering rams in the wings, offlaod quick hands etc.

Lastly we need another Roberts to comer through...he is our battering ram and he must continue to be it.

mowgli wrote:fhf


5. not sure if you are Scots or English...if the former you should be happy, just very very happy. To close out Aus is some achievement and the Samoa game was tight. Visser, Denton, Gray Laidlaw and Hogg all in contention for the lions and Gray is absolutely the only name i would bet on starting right now. if English, please accept my commiserations! No only joking, I think the difference between the perception of a failed tour and a somewhat successful one came down to a draw. But there is a lot more going on behind the scenes that i liek and to hear Haskell at least try and be humble suggests to me that attitudes have changed from boys on tour to lets play rugby.
Lancaster has bought himself yet more time to continue to do the good works he has started on. He might not be a banker for the RFU but he is a student of coaching and I like what he stands for.

Ach spit gnashing of teeth

Cannae believe you have suggested I may be English............ Musselburgh (Races!!, close to Edinburgh), life long gunner, played the game and now avid observer of all things Scottish Rugby

Might be biased but I think Denton, Rennie and Gray if they progress could be nailed on for the lions first 15. The good thing about us is that we have some really good youngsters coming thro as well just behind the Laidlaws, Scotts, Jones, Weirs etc

I might be in the minority but I think that AR is putting in some solid foundations and whilst some selections during last 6Ns were amiss, he is amassing a pretty decent 22 to 28 players

Damn sorry about that!!

I have watched AR in torment for years most recently when Scotland lost to us in the last few minutes in the 6Ns 2010 i think.

I have always thought he was very awkward as a coach but you have to admire his cohones and loyalty

I expect Scotland to beat Ireland and England or Wales next year and you guys should aim for 4th or better

It surprises me how often fans disregard AWJs, in selection and in performance, when pundits and coaches rate him so highly...?

Thanks Mowgli....

Heres something you may be interested in.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/datastore/sport/2012/06/28/wales-marathon-rugby-season-your-in-depth-statistical-guide-91466-31279054/

Some really interesting statistics. It has been a long season and Wales have played 20 tests. 12 wins and 8 losses.

That is really starting to show on some of the older players bodies. Matthew Rees, Gethin Jenkins, Alyn wyn Jones and Adam jones are four players' who have really been put through the mill this year. Jenkins and Rees have struggled with injuries and ity really showed against Australia for me. They both struggled to make an impact and Wales suffered as a result.

Like I said, I would like to see players like; gill, bevington, Rhodri Jones and craig mitchel get some game time. I think the RWC 2015 will definitely be a bridge too far for Jenkins and Jones has also intimated that he rates Mitchel very highly and expects him to be the future tight head for Wales.

I think those four players are more in the southern hemisphere mould. While not as good scrummagers I think they all offer more around the park and certainly have time and youth on their side.

What disappointed me from Wales' tour was the lack of times we saw George North and Cuthbert off their wings carrying the ball. Watching Guildford, O'connor etc. it is really amazing how many times they carry or are involved in passing or running the ball. I would like to see a much higher workrate of both north and cuthbert.

I take back what I said about the 2nd row.... Ian Evans & an other from charteris/wyn jones for me. Bradley davies was a penalty machine and he lacks the basic intelligence when carrying. He often picks when he doesn't need to and without support.

For Wales' game against Argentina & Samoa I would like to see:

1) Gill
2) Owens
3) Mitchel
4) Charteris
5) Evans
6) Warburton
7) Tupuric
8) Faletau

9) Webb
10) Hook
11) North
12) Roberts
13) Williams
14) Cuthbert
15) Halfpenny

Strong Bench of:

16) Rees 17) James 18) Wyn Jones 19) R Jones 20) Phillips 21) Priestland 22) Beck

I think we have to broaden our options at 6 and 13 hence why i would switch warbs to 6 and williams to 13. Front row is a mobile set and its likely argentina will be tired and not as powerful after the four nations. A tournament schedule that will be gruelling for them.

Roberts will be coming back from injury and will need some gametime. Would give him 50/60 mins and bring on beck.

That begs a question. Wales' autumn series schedule is as follows:

Saturday 10 November:

Wales v Argentina (Millennium Stadium, Cardiff; 14:30 GMT)

Friday 16 November:

Wales v Samoa (Millennium Stadium, Cardiff; 19:30 GMT)

Saturday 24 November:

Wales v New Zealand (Millennium Stadium, Cardiff; 17:15 GMT)

Saturday 1 December:

Wales v Australia (Millennium Stadium, Cardiff; 14:30 BST)

If you had to pick which players would play who. Who would you pick?

maestegmafia wrote:It surprises me how often fans disregard AWJs, in selection and in performance, when pundits and coaches rate him so highly...?

I think AWJ is a great all round player. But the one thing that is quite annoying is that he's supposed to be a lineout technician, but when he plays our lineout doesn't seem to improve a whole lot.

Wales squad for Australia tour was as follows: Ive added some players who were missing.

FORWARDS: Luke Charteris (Newport Gwent Dragons), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Cardiff Blues), Toby Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), Rhys Gill (Saracens), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Paul James (Ospreys), Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Ryan Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Newport Gwent Dragons), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Matthew Rees (Scarlets), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Josh Turnbull (Scarlets), Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues), Craig Mitchel (Exeter), Huw Bennett (Lyon), Ryan Bevington (Ospreys)

BACKS: Ashley Beck (Ospreys), Andrew Bishop (Ospreys), Aled Brew (Biarritz), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues), James Hook (Ospreys), George North (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Harry Robinson (Cardiff Blues), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Liam Williams (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Ospreys).

If ive missed anyone you'd like to see just add them in!

Even with an opnely bias Dragons head on I am still surprised by how many people under rate Lydiate.

He is our best No6 by the proverbial country mile and head and shoulders over Warburton at in that position, for me he is the first name down in the back row with any from Faletau, R Jones, Warburton and Tipuric making up the rest.

Permian8, why are you drpooing Jon Davies, arguably Wales best centre from the match day 22???????

I also don't like the look of the halfbacks, Phillips is still number 1 and expect Knoyle and Davies at the Scarlets, together with the Under 20s no 9 to press for the bench spot next season. I am a great admirer of Hook as a rugby player, but I have seen nothing that suggests he has the ability to be Wales first choice no 10. His best position remains as a sub with Biggar and Tovey likely to be challenging (ahopefully fully fit) Priestland for the 10 shirt next season.

The subject of the article is whether the forwards are holding Wales back and on the tour to Austrailia, yes they did. They were second best in all facets of the game exept the scrum (which they did not dominate). They were particularly weak in the loose play. This resulted in Wales backs getting slow backfoot ball whereas the Ozzie backs were usually on the front foot. If Gatland can tweak the forwards to produce more go forward ball, that will solve most of the current problems at halfback.

Scrum half will be even tougher next season.

Ospreys

Webb
Habberfield


Dragons

Wayne Evans
Jon Evans


Scarlets

Tavis Knoyle
Gareth Davies
Rhodri Williams


Blues

Lloyd Williams

Seagul.... In terms of the squad i selected it was for the argentina game. It was a bit of a typo when i said for both argentina and samoa.

I tried to get the balance of resting some players coming back from injury while giving those players i dont expect to get much game time a run out in case of injury?

Roberts will need to play some part in that game and be taken off as I fully expect him to play a huge part in the samoa game. JD is the first choice outside centre and would also play a huge role in that game against samoa.

While I rate G. davies at the scarlets I don't see where knoyle fits into a gameplan. He is neither a mike phillips or a rhys webb. But thats only my opinion. I like Tom Habberfield but would like to see what he does in an Ospreys shirt first. He has only played a few games at regional level last season.

Hook is that dilemma....where does he play.....when does he play and what gameplan gets the best out of him. Personally, even with biggar and tovey i still see him as our 2nd best option at 10. Biggar is still maturing and hasn't shown up well on the international stage. Tovey is the charge down man. I think he is slow at making decisions but will be interested to see him in a blues shirt next season.

What do you think Wales should do with Hook? He needs a position for Wales and not be that utility back! He is a wasted talented rugby player at the moment!

Maesteg....from the mentioned scrum halves i would currently rate them like this for Wales....

1- Mike Phillips
2- Rhys Webb
3- Lloyd Williams
4- Tom Habberfield
5-Gareth Davies
6- Wayne Evans
7- Tavis Knoyle
8- Rhodri Williams
9- Jon Evans (I dont think he will have what it takes anyway)

I think Gareth Davies is much higher than fifth, possibly joint second. Habberfield looks the part, he has already been a star for Wales on the sevens circuit. I think the time has come for one of the guys below Phillips (not Williams) to be given a few starts in our best Wales team.

Morg, I think webb has better service and the ability to box kick than Davies at the moment which is why i rated them that way. Habberfield and Gareth Davies are both very good players who have a bright future. Perhaps half a season more at regional level will help both.

Habberfield has the harder job as he is behind webb and foutalili.

I think we shoukd persist with webb as phillips' back up. There is very little between the next three and they all play slightly differently. In fact I would ammend my previous statement to:

3- Habberfield
3- Williams
3- Davies

I think the welsh management would persist with williams as number 3. His experience telling over the other 2.

I like what Habberfield offers. He is a very good kicker of the ball, has a very high work rate and covers the ground well as a sweeper. His service is also sharp and he has a good intelligence around the field.

Williams has a decent service if not slightly slower than the other two. He has a good left peg and is a nice open field runner. He can box kick but struggled against the Baa Baas as he was a little hesitant.

Davies is an abrasive player and likes to speed the play up ala webb. He is stronger than the others above him apart from phillips. Very good around the fringes and has a decent pass. I would like to see him improve his decision making and that will come with more game time at the scarlets. His box kicking could also improve a bit.

Scrum half is a very strong position for Wales to have. Like i said at the top of the article we need to address the forwards or the backs will be wasted. I would like to see them a bit more speedy and mobile. Though the problems is at the front row regarding that.

The gameplan needs a shift in emphasis to getting players like Faletau, warburton and tupuric attacking the backs in the wider channels. Forwards need to be running on to the ball and working in pods. Would also like to see Wales returning more kicks via runs. Drop Faletau deep and get the back 3 working.

Permian88 wrote:Seagul.... In terms of the squad i selected it was for the argentina game. It was a bit of a typo when i said for both argentina and samoa.

I tried to get the balance of resting some players coming back from injury while giving those players i dont expect to get much game time a run out in case of injury?

Roberts will need to play some part in that game and be taken off as I fully expect him to play a huge part in the samoa game. JD is the first choice outside centre and would also play a huge role in that game against samoa.

While I rate G. davies at the scarlets I don't see where knoyle fits into a gameplan. He is neither a mike phillips or a rhys webb. But thats only my opinion. I like Tom Habberfield but would like to see what he does in an Ospreys shirt first. He has only played a few games at regional level last season.

Hook is that dilemma....where does he play.....when does he play and what gameplan gets the best out of him. Personally, even with biggar and tovey i still see him as our 2nd best option at 10. Biggar is still maturing and hasn't shown up well on the international stage. Tovey is the charge down man. I think he is slow at making decisions but will be interested to see him in a blues shirt next season.

What do you think Wales should do with Hook? He needs a position for Wales and not be that utility back! He is a wasted talented rugby player at the moment!

I agree Hook is a wasted talent, but its up to him to buckle down and improve his game, that is the only way he is going to live up to his early promise. He lacks the concentration levels and game awareness to play 10, he is 26 now and should be controlling games for 80 mins. His defence is too weak for 12 (it lets him down at 10 also) and he lacks pace at 13 and 15. He is unlikely to get faster but he can develop his defence, game awareness and concentration, if he is prepared to put in the work.

I don't agree with your comments about Knoyle, this time last year he was pushing Phillips all the way for the 9 shirt. But an injury picked up in the WC which subsequently needed surgery meant he has missed most of the season. It will be interesting to see Knoyle and Davies both fully fit, fighting for the Scarlets no 9 shirt.

Webb is OK but he is behind Fortulai at the Ospreys and that probably says a lot about his ability. Williams is quick, kicks well and has a sharp pass, but he lack physicality at the top level and I suspect that he will never be much more than a good club player.

But back to my origional comment, a more dynamic forward effort generating front foot ball will solve Wales current problems and allow Phillips and Priestland (or who ever plays there) to release Wales dangerous backs.

Seagultaf wrote:

Permian88 wrote:Seagul.... In terms of the squad i selected it was for the argentina game. It was a bit of a typo when i said for both argentina and samoa.

I tried to get the balance of resting some players coming back from injury while giving those players i dont expect to get much game time a run out in case of injury?

Roberts will need to play some part in that game and be taken off as I fully expect him to play a huge part in the samoa game. JD is the first choice outside centre and would also play a huge role in that game against samoa.

While I rate G. davies at the scarlets I don't see where knoyle fits into a gameplan. He is neither a mike phillips or a rhys webb. But thats only my opinion. I like Tom Habberfield but would like to see what he does in an Ospreys shirt first. He has only played a few games at regional level last season.

Hook is that dilemma....where does he play.....when does he play and what gameplan gets the best out of him. Personally, even with biggar and tovey i still see him as our 2nd best option at 10. Biggar is still maturing and hasn't shown up well on the international stage. Tovey is the charge down man. I think he is slow at making decisions but will be interested to see him in a blues shirt next season.

What do you think Wales should do with Hook? He needs a position for Wales and not be that utility back! He is a wasted talented rugby player at the moment!

I agree Hook is a wasted talent, but its up to him to buckle down and improve his game, that is the only way he is going to live up to his early promise. He lacks the concentration levels and game awareness to play 10, he is 26 now and should be controlling games for 80 mins. His defence is too weak for 12 (it lets him down at 10 also) and he lacks pace at 13 and 15. He is unlikely to get faster but he can develop his defence, game awareness and concentration, if he is prepared to put in the work.

I don't agree with your comments about Knoyle, this time last year he was pushing Phillips all the way for the 9 shirt. But an injury picked up in the WC which subsequently needed surgery meant he has missed most of the season. It will be interesting to see Knoyle and Davies both fully fit, fighting for the Scarlets no 9 shirt.

Webb is OK but he is behind Fortulai at the Ospreys and that probably says a lot about his ability. Williams is quick, kicks well and has a sharp pass, but he lack physicality at the top level and I suspect that he will never be much more than a good club player.

But back to my origional comment, a more dynamic forward effort generating front foot ball will solve Wales current problems and allow Phillips and Priestland (or who ever plays there) to release Wales dangerous backs.

Hook: I agree he has decision making issues, is a poor defender and lacks pure pace. In some ways his natural skills are his biggest problem. He does need to improve the basics of his game and i think France will help that as much as it did for Wellies. But Wales also have blame in this. Because of his natural skills he has done a job across the back line and this is why he has become the utility back he now is; he can play 10, 12 , 13 and 15 and that in itslef is a huge compliment to the guy. I would like to see him start anywhere v Italy and Scotland next season

Permian88 wrote:Maesteg....from the mentioned scrum halves i would currently rate them like this for Wales....

1- Mike Phillips
2- Rhys Webb
3- Lloyd Williams
4- Tom Habberfield
5-Gareth Davies
6- Wayne Evans
7- Tavis Knoyle
8- Rhodri Williams
9- Jon Evans (I dont think he will have what it takes anyway)

I think your pretty on the money there, not much difference between 5th and 9th. Though I think Tavis Knoyle is very likely to have a great season. He could well be the answer.

maestegmafia wrote:

Permian88 wrote:Maesteg....from the mentioned scrum halves i would currently rate them like this for Wales....

1- Mike Phillips
2- Rhys Webb
3- Lloyd Williams
4- Tom Habberfield
5-Gareth Davies
6- Wayne Evans
7- Tavis Knoyle
8- Rhodri Williams
9- Jon Evans (I dont think he will have what it takes anyway)

I think your pretty on the money there, not much difference between 5th and 9th. Though I think Tavis Knoyle is very likely to have a great season. He could well be the answer.

I really liked Tarvis when he first came on the scene, fast, brave, strong and before his injuries he was seriously pushing Phillips. The only issue to me is his pass its pretty dire, if he could somehow at least make it more accurate and a tad quicker, then in my mind he would be the way out number one choice.

Passing can be coached, vision can't.

All these lads have great atributes. A bit of pushing in the Rabbo from each other to try and prove who's the best won't hurt at all.

The coaches

flyhalffactory wrote:Tarvis

Tavis Knoyle..!

maestegmafia wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Tarvis

Tavis Knoyle..!

Based on various boards I had assumed there was a rule that all posters must misspell Knoyle's first name - similar to the rule that insists Wales former FB is called Lee Bryne.

LondonTiger wrote:Based on various boards I had assumed there was a rule that all posters must misspell Knoyle's first name - similar to the rule that insists Wales former FB is called Lee Bryne.

It was never Byrne, was it?