RaboP12 (Round 6): Leinster (30) vs Munster (21) k/o - 18:30 Sat, 6 October 2012 (Lansdowne Road)

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 01 Oct 2012, 4:08 pm

First topic message reminder :

Leinster & Munster coming off away losses (Connacht & Ospreys respectively).
How much will Leinster rebound?
Is this the usual slow start, or a malaise within the squad?

Squad updates/Teams to follow

Leinster Squad Update: 1 Oct 14:30
Rob Kearney (back) and Gordon D’Arcy (rib) are major doubts for the province and they will continue to be assessed ahead of Friday’s lunchtime team announcement. South African second row Quinn Roux suffered a shoulder injury and he is expected to miss this weekend’s derby match.
Meanwhile, Shane Jennings is expected to shake off the ill effects of an ankle injury which he sustained on the hour mark in Connacht, though it is likely to curtail his on-field involvement in training this week. It is hoped that club captain Leo Cullen (arm) will also return to the panel either this week or next, while Isaac Boss (arm) is getting closer to a return to action.

The province are expected to be boosted by the return of the likes of Jamie Heaslip, Kevin McLaughlin, Brian O’Driscoll, Eoin Reddan, Jonathan Sexton and Richardt Strauss to the panel this week.

There are two significant imminent landmarks for the province with Cian Healy, who turns 25 on Sunday, in line to make his 100th provincial appearance, while Naas number eight Heaslip’s next appearance will be his 150th.

Munster Squad Update: 1 October
Good news from the Munster camp is that the injuries picked up in the game on Saturday at the Liberty Stadium are not causing great concern.

Conor Murray required stitches to a cut above his eye but shortly after he returned it was thought to be in his best interests to replace him with Peter Stringer.
Stringer finished the game but suffered a calf injury and his progress will be monitored though the expectation is that both will be fit for consideration. The same applies to Marcus Horan who sustained a facial cut playing for Shannon.

Paul O'Connell (back), Johne Murphy (knee) and Luke O'Dea (ankle) are all expected to take a full part in training this week while Ian Nagle (shoulder) did likewise last week but will be given a week or so before being made available for selection and Cathal Sheridan (hand) and Ivan Dineen (groin) are also looking at a return in the same timeframe.

Mickado wrote:LEINSTER:

15: Ian Madigan
14: Andrew Conway
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Fergus McFadden
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Eoin Reddan

1: Heinke van der Merwe
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Damian Browne
5: Devin Toner
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Jack McGrath
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Tom Denton
20: Jordi Murphy
21: John Cooney
22: Noel Reid
23: Fionn Carr

red_stag wrote:01: Dave Kilcoyne
02: Mike Sherry
03: BJ Botha
04: Donncha O'Callaghan
05: Donnacha Ryan
06: Dave O'Callaghan
07: Sean Dougall
08: Peter O'Mahony
09: Conor Murray
10: Ronan O'Gara
11: Simon Zebo
12: Casey Laulala
13: Keith Earls
14: Doug Howlett
15: Denis Hurley

16: Damien Varley
17: Wian du Preez
18: Stephen Archer
19: Billy Holland
20: Paddy Butler
21: Duncan Williams
22: Ian Keatley
23: James Downey

Post match report (Indo)
Having saddled themselves with the unwanted tag of league leaders in tries conceded, Leinster for a while looked like they might make serious headway in the other direction at Lansdowne Road last night. In the end they managed one more than they conceded, 3-2, and were happy enough to win, never mind miss out on the bonus.

The bad news is that their list of injured has grown even longer. Four players had to leave early from what was an entertaining contest for the huge crowd of 46,280 who fetched up on a perfect night for rugby. Kevin McLaughlin, Isa Nacewa, Brian O'Driscoll and Andrew Conway all took knocks. Conway's exit was via a stretcher, with a stinger, while McLaughlin will need a scan on a hyper-extended elbow, Nacewa is in trouble with a haematoma, and O'Driscoll sprained his ankle.

It remains to be seen who is fit for the opening defence of their Heineken Cup title, against Exeter in the RDS on Saturday, but as far as last night was concerned they were stuck with a back three of replacement scrumhalf John Cooney, outhalf Ian Madigan (in fairness he was selected at fullback) and Fionn Carr, who surely would have started if he hadn't missed a bad tackle in the five-try defeat in Galway last weekend.

Smelling the weakness in their opponents, Munster -- who came through the game in much better shape physically -- chased the home team down like men possessed. On 53 minutes they looked like they would be beaten out the gate when an outstanding try from O'Driscoll, converted from the touchline by the excellent Jonny Sexton, put Leinster 30-14 ahead.

Going down the final straight, however, it was a mad scramble. Conor Murray spread a bit of panic in the home crowd when, from a couple of metres out, he took advantage of empty corridor to dot the ball down. Replacement Ian Keatley nailed the conversion with a great kick, and Munster were on the charge. A couple of minutes later they looked on the verge of making it a one-point game.

Keith Earls was held up inches short, and when the ball squirted up referee Leighton Hodges said it was forward and Leinster escaped. Earls made another great burst heading into overtime, but by then the chances of two scores were non-existent.

When the game wasn't stopped for injuries it moved along at a cracking pace, helped by the service of man of the match Eoin Reddan -- his contribution to O'Driscoll's try was first class -- and, in the subtext of showing form for Ireland, Richardt Strauss made a compelling case. He looked like the player who took Leinster by storm when he arrived here three years ago. He did well to finger-tip-score the opening try, after just four minutes, but way better again in keeping the ball alive for the second, for Madigan.

"Yeah I thought he was really good," Joe Schmidt said. "There was one pinball effort where he took a ball behind him and was hit by two guys -- [Casey] Laulala was one of them, who tends not to leave a lot behind when he hits -- and ricocheted away in the lead-up to scoring [Madigan's try]. I thought he was very good."

It remains to be seen if Declan Kidney thinks the same. The Ireland coach will have been pleased with the form of Earls, and Simon Zebo, but it was hard for Munster to get a secure platform given the damage Mike Ross was doing to their scrum. Dave Kilcoyne, his opposite number, is a willing and aggressive ball carrier, but as you would expect he spent more time learning than lecturing in the tight. The ref did him for two penalties in a row -- one hit and one miss for Sexton -- and you felt for him.

Early on Munster looked like they had plenty to offer, with Peter O'Mahony responding within a couple of minutes of Strauss's try. By half-time Leinster had slipped out to 20-14. Ronan O'Gara kept Munster in touch with three penalties but then hit the post with a handy one early in the new half.

Straight from there, Leinster got motoring and hit their opponents with 10 points in four minutes -- first Sexton goaled from the touchline, and then O'Driscoll finished brilliantly after Fergus McFadden laid the groundwork through the middle, riding O'Gara's tackle, before great hands from Reddan kept it all going.

Rob Penney will be delighted with the way his team stuck to the task, but they badly need to get all their big players fit if their game is going to work. Schmidt, while wondering why so much trauma has landed at his door, will be glad that his team can generate this sort of momentum with so many players missing.

Scorers -- Leinster: R Strauss, I Madigan, B O'Driscoll try each; J Sexton 3 pens, 3 cons; Munster: P O'Mahony, C Murray try each; R O'Gara 3 pens; I Keatley con.

Leinster: I Madigan; A Conway (J Cooney 65), B O'Driscoll (N Reid 64), F McFadden, I Nacewa (F Carr 55); J Sexton, E Reddan; H van der Merwe, R Strauss (S Cronin 57), M Ross (J Hagan 65), D Browne (T Denton 73), D Toner, K McLaughlin (J Murphy 12), J Heaslip (capt), S Jennings.

Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett (capt), K Earls, C Laulala, S Zebo (J Downey 65); R O'Gara (I Keatley 60),C Murray; D Kilcoyne (W du Preez 57), M Sherry (D Varley 51 yc 54-64), BJ Botha, Donncha O'Callaghan (B Holland 49), D Ryan, Dave O'Callaghan (P Butler 70), P O'Mahony, S Dougall.

Referee: L Hodges (Wales)

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 8:43 am

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Ahhh... genetics. One of the very least significant factors, hyped up to great importance because it absolves us of any criticism about what we do with the professional game in Ireland and how we run it.

Explain how the East Africans are all great middle and long distance runners and West Africans are all great powerful sprinters then?

Good point. Have the genes that make fly halves stand closer to the gainline been identified yet?

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 08 Oct 2012, 8:53 am

Mickado wrote:I had to leave after the match but we're planning pints this weekend after the Ex game. Cassidys if you fancy it. Gibbo, Asbo and Hughie are over, should be a good session.

I think the best Munster back line would be

Murray - Keatley
Howlett - Downey - Laulala - Earls
Hurley

Yeah man that could be good not sure what time my match is at but I'll know by Thursday evening and will give ya a bell then.

Is there a reason you have Howlett and Earls on opposite wings or was that just putting them down as the wingers?
I'd pretty much agree with it: I'd prefer Earls at 15 and Zebo on the wing

by Mickado Mon 08 Oct 2012, 8:59 am

It was just a case of the Monday’s, Howlett on the right wing, Earls on the left.

Both are better wingers than Zebo who’s a very good finisher but can’t make something out of nothing, Leinster’s very simple drift defense rendered him useless in attack for the most part.

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 9:04 am

Zebo is far better winger than Earls imo, as is Howlett. He made a total hash of that break up the wing when McFadden tackled him into touch.

Downey is a better 12 and Laulua is a better 13. He's a very poor 13 actually despite his delusions otherwise. He has no short passing game, doesn't create anything for those around him, isn't physical enough, runs poor angles and is very predictable. Even though he has the pace to break the line mostly it comes to nothing because he's usually oblivious to support runners.

Is he better 15 than Hurley? Not sure on that but if the answer is no then he shouldn't be starting.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 08 Oct 2012, 9:12 am

I don't think Earls is an awful 13 but I certainly don't think he's that good of one. He has started looking around him a bit more this season.

The thing that gets me is that he plays a few good games there at rabo or HCup level and everyone thinks he's an outstanding centre or at times while playing at centre he does really well but more in the capacity of a wing that a centre and everyone applauds him again as the next 13.

Rant over.

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 9:13 am

Right enough of this chatting about Earls and ROG.....

What is up with this Munster pack?? They need to buck up their ideas. You'd never see the Claw, Hayes, Flannery, Quinlan, Foley, Wallace, Leamy etc bullied around the pitch like this shower.

Sexy rugby is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills. This Munster team need to get some fire in the belly and start fronting up physically before worrying about their backline.

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 9:50 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I don't think Earls is an awful 13 but I certainly don't think he's that good of one. He has started looking around him a bit more this season.

The thing that gets me is that he plays a few good games there at rabo or HCup level and everyone thinks he's an outstanding centre or at times while playing at centre he does really well but more in the capacity of a wing that a centre and everyone applauds him again as the next 13.

Rant over.

Earls did very well during the 6Ns at 13 this year. Earls was the Munster player that Schmidt picked out before the game (said something to the effect that he is a great admirer of his). It was a waste of time in the past for Earls to look to pass/off load the ball because no one could keep up in support of him (Luke Fitz could, but he has been injured so much). Zebo can stay with him now (pace wise). Must be those West African genes he has!

Zebo is going to be a top class winger. Impressive how he had the awareness to get both feet in the air to collect the ball before going into touch (retaining possession for Munster). He is top class at chasing balls and has a great offload and great awareness. Comes across as very easy going lad - always plays with a big smile on his face - ideal Lions touring material. Wink

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 9:58 am

rodders wrote:Right enough of this chatting about Earls and ROG.....

What is up with this Munster pack?? They need to buck up their ideas. You'd never see the Claw, Hayes, Flannery, Quinlan, Foley, Wallace, Leamy etc bullied around the pitch like this shower.

Sexy rugby is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills. This Munster team need to get some fire in the belly and start fronting up physically before worrying about their backline.

Peter O'Mahony was the oldest backrower and he was 23 a few weeks ago. They need another season or so to develop. CJ stander will be a welcome addition as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbySGywkpRg

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 08 Oct 2012, 9:59 am

I did think the Munster pack was a bit quiet. Also thought the Leinster pack was quiet enough as well. Had a sense people were trying not to pick up injuries instead of putting their bodies on the line.

Also thought it was a very dull atmosphere at the game. There was a hum at the start of the second half and after about 3-4 minutes, I realised it was a case that the majority of people around me were have random conversations and the match wasn't a primary concern for a lot of people.

Thought Madigan held his own quite well at fullback, I wouldn't be overly worried about him playing their in bigger games.

Nacewa picked up a knock - is it serious?
BOD sprained an ankle - don't want him picking up niggles
Conway looked serious when carted from the field, but thought I spotted him shaking hands after the game with all the players on the field so hopefully that is a good sign.
McL going off with a hyper-extension I don't like the sound of. He is a great lineout option and was really nailing down the starting jersey with his performances.

Overall, a decent result, but other than Strauss' magic fingertips and the break that led to BODs try, there wasn't a whole lot to really walk away feeling confident of the next couple of weeks.

by Mickado Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:10 am

I’ve heard a few people say the atmosphere was lacking a bit, but to be honest I thought it was rocking. Plenty of cheering and chanting going on where I was seated.

I hope RugbyDump put up a video of BOD’s try and his tackle on Murray, fair play to Murray he got up straight after the hit, it was some thump.

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:18 am

Mickado wrote:

I hope RugbyDump put up a video of BOD’s try and his tackle on Murray, fair play to Murray he got up straight after the hit, it was some thump.

Was that not Howlett?

by Mickado Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:19 am

I thought it was on Murray but i only saw it live so could be mistaken. You know the one I'm talking about anyway.

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:23 am

I thought the hit was on Howlett Mick, or was that a different one?

He flattened Howlett anyways. Looks in good nick this season anyways does the great man.

Sin fair enough on the backrow but that tight 5 has been mushed two weeks running. Every decent pack in Europe will be licking their lips at taking on that Munster 5.

Until Munster get a bit of steel and grunt up front everything else Penney does will just be papering over the cracks imo.

by Mickado Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:29 am

Nah Rods, I got it wrong, he hit Howlett. I could actually hear the collision. He came out of nowhere. Reminded me of Cave’s hit on Thompson in the HC SF last year, I was in the top tier at Lansdowne and I swear I could hear it.

by red_stag Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:31 am

Hi all, ultimately I am very disappointed. I felt before hand that Munster could have won that match and despite a 9 point defeat still feel it was there to be won.

You make your own luck in these matches and ultimately I feel that we just didnt take chances when they came along.

A great match though and well done to Leinster.

Rodders - yes our tight five is doing poorly but we are doing a lot of rotation to develop front rows. We dropped BJ Botha against Ospreys. We dropped Wian du Preez against Leinster. This was done to expose Archer and Kilcoyne to top class level rugby. Both of these are certainties to play against Racing Metro and it is likely that O'Connell will come back into the mix as well.

Situation is not that bad but we must take chances when they come, we must learn how to deal with chip kicks and especially grubber kicks and above all else we must choose the right team - IMO this means Keatley at 10 and picking either Laulala or Earls to partner Downey in the centre.

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:45 am

rodders wrote:I thought the hit was on Howlett Mick, or was that a different one?

He flattened Howlett anyways. Looks in good nick this season anyways does the great man.

Sin fair enough on the backrow but that tight 5 has been mushed two weeks running. Every decent pack in Europe will be licking their lips at taking on that Munster 5.

Until Munster get a bit of steel and grunt up front everything else Penney does will just be papering over the cracks imo.

Rods, you didn't look at the link I posted. CJ is a beast!

by Don Alfonso Mon 08 Oct 2012, 10:55 am

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Ahhh... genetics. One of the very least significant factors, hyped up to great importance because it absolves us of any criticism about what we do with the professional game in Ireland and how we run it.

Explain how the East Africans are all great middle and long distance runners and West Africans are all great powerful sprinters then?

I heard Penney in an interview just prior to the Junior World Cup talking about how the mixing of the genes of the south sea islanders & Europeans resulted in NZ producing some great young athletes.

First off, on Penney, while he's doing a great job with Munster, I'm not necessarily going to listen rapt to his pop science ruminations. Does he have much of a background as a geneticist or evolutionary biologist? If not, I'll thank him for his contribution and move on.

If genetics is so important, how come none of Fiji. Tonga or Samoa are in the top eight teams in the world? Well, because of issues with poverty, infrastructure and stability. So genetics is trumped by the social and economic context of the nation in question - that's a direct illustration of how other factors are more important.

I'm tempted to ignore your question about African sprinters, as it's not directly relevant, but instead I'll offer this explanation. Genetics are more important in running because there is a great deal less required in terms of resources, logistics and infrastructure with running. A full game of rugby requires, at the absolute bare minimum, 30 people and a ball. A running competition requires two people and some space. One is infinitely more complex to arrange than the other at any kind of competitive level, leaving aside training requirements and a lack of specialist knowledge. Especially when rugby is so far off the cultural mainstream in the vast majority of African countries. It is Ireland's stronger economy (with subsequently more resources for sport), our greater population, our historic playing of the sport and our more stable political framework that contribute to our rugby team being better in quality. If South Sea Islanders have genetic traits that benefit performance on the rugby pitch, it doesn't show in their win/draw/loss record against predominantly caucasian Northern European countries.

So we can moan about genetics, but having a higher quality Ulster Bank competition, or a culture in which rugby was a more prominent and popular sport would be of greater significance.

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 11:16 am

Just skimmed that one Don but I agree. Genetics is not insignificant but it is but just one factor and not an excuse for anything.

Stag good point about the front row rotation. Without doubt O'Connell will have a big impact but there is a general trend with Munster getting beasted against the better scrums over the past few years. The forward play generally is not what it was.

Its not just the props its the second rows too. I think they need a real enforcer type partner for O'Connell to bolster the tight play. I'm a huge fan of Ryan but he and DOC are too lightweight against the big packs imo.

Sin you bad man is that a clip of CJ clattering Afoa??

by SecretFly Mon 08 Oct 2012, 11:18 am

Just on Penney and his theories on genetics.......................................... Wink

Nope, rest easy; I won't go into his genetic experiments.. O'Gara for one doesn't like the genes he's being injected with...some rhino and cheetah I hear.

Anyway, back in the real world, Penney. Well now the man gave enough warnings to the folks that think he's going to do a Leinster and win everything in his first year. He said he had a lot of work to do and he was only at the beginning of it - just like Ulster were a few seasons back when they were amassing their army and getting them up to speed.

Nobody promised the world in a day, least of all Penney. He's begun, he has to rejig Munster much more than Schmidt had to do to Leinster when he turned up. He's doing ok on his initial path. Will it win anything this year? It might, it might not. That's not the point of Penney's employment - his role is to change Munster and then attack the titles.

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 11:23 am

[quote="Don Alfonso"]

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Ahhh... genetics. One of the very least significant factors, hyped up to great importance because it absolves us of any criticism about what we do with the professional game in Ireland and how we run it.

Explain how the East Africans are all great middle and long distance runners and West Africans are all great powerful sprinters then?

I heard Penney in an interview just prior to the Junior World Cup talking about how the mixing of the genes of the south sea islanders & Europeans resulted in NZ producing some great young athletes.

First off, on Penney, while he's doing a great job with Munster, I'm not necessarily going to listen rapt to his pop science ruminations. Does he have much of a background as a geneticist or evolutionary biologist? If not, I'll thank him for his contribution and move on.

Do you have much of a background in genetics yourself?

If genetics is so important, how come none of Fiji. Tonga or Samoa are in the top eight teams in the world? Well, because of issues with poverty, infrastructure and stability. So genetics is trumped by the social and economic context of the nation in question - that's a direct illustration of how other factors are more important.

Penney made the point that it was the combination of the European & South Sea Islanders that made these great athletes/rugby players at a young age. There is no doubt that the islanders mature physically a lot quicker than caucasian/europeans.

I'm tempted to ignore your question about African sprinters, as it's not directly relevant, but instead I'll offer this explanation. Genetics are more important in running because there is a great deal less required in terms of resources, logistics and infrastructure with running. A full game of rugby requires, at the absolute bare minimum, 30 people and a ball. A running competition requires two people and some space. One is infinitely more complex to arrange than the other at any kind of competitive level, leaving aside training requirements and a lack of specialist knowledge. Especially when rugby is so far off the cultural mainstream in the vast majority of African countries. It is Ireland's stronger economy (with subsequently more resources for sport), our greater population, our historic playing of the sport and our more stable political framework that contribute to our rugby team being better in quality. If South Sea Islanders have genetic traits that benefit performance on the rugby pitch, it doesn't show in their win/draw/loss record against predominantly caucasian Northern European countries.

That doesn't answer why East Africans are long distance runners and West Africans are sprinters - apart from altitude they would have had a similar type environment. They look different - East Africans are tall, thin with long legs. The West Africans have this fast twitch muscle and are not as lean as those who originally came from

So we can moan about genetics, but having a higher quality Ulster Bank competition, or a culture in which rugby was a more prominent and popular sport would be of greater significance.

I'm not moaning about it. Its just obvious that you can see certain genetic physical traits in different races. For instance, the Dutch are generally a tall race of people. This would follow on that the Africaans are tall, but due to their environment and having access to a plentyful supply of food and working on the land they tend to be very well built.

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 08 Oct 2012, 11:47 am

Maybe the Genetics v Structures debate deserves its own separate thread. It wasn't something that struck me during the game at the weekend.

by Mickado Mon 08 Oct 2012, 11:53 am

Question about the game. Sexton took the conversion for BODs try from the touchline, I thought that you could take the ball in 5m if a try was scored in the corner? Was he just showing off? Fantastic kick to convert it either way...

by SecretFly Mon 08 Oct 2012, 12:01 pm

Maybe he just practices more from the extreme angles (to be more ready for the most difficult kicks first) and therefore maybe just feels more comfortable taking them from where he practices most?

Just my ten cents idea on that one Mikado. Someone is going to tell me I'm all wrong there too!

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 08 Oct 2012, 12:03 pm

Fair dues to the fella proposing at half time. I usually think those things are too staged (and kind of Americana) but she was seriously mortified when she realised what she had walked herself into by going onto the field at half time. (was there a proposal at a Leinster/Munster game down in Thomond only a couple of seasons back also?). It was a better event than the Leinster lad on his stag in Galway the previous week who could hardly stand from drink but was entered into the half time kicking contest.

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 08 Oct 2012, 12:04 pm

Mickado wrote:Question about the game. Sexton took the conversion for BODs try from the touchline, I thought that you could take the ball in 5m if a try was scored in the corner? Was he just showing off? Fantastic kick to convert it either way...

Don't think there is a rule that allows you bring it in 5m. Only scrums get that kind of lee-way but my memory is fussy on this.

by Don Alfonso Mon 08 Oct 2012, 2:10 pm

Sin, if you want to make a point that addresses my assertion that in rugby genetic "racial" differences are a relatively insignificant factor when measured against culture, history and prosperity, then go ahead. Otherwise let's leave it and not derail this thread further with non-sequiturs about different kinds of running in Africa.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 08 Oct 2012, 2:11 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Mickado wrote:Question about the game. Sexton took the conversion for BODs try from the touchline, I thought that you could take the ball in 5m if a try was scored in the corner? Was he just showing off? Fantastic kick to convert it either way...

Don't think there is a rule that allows you bring it in 5m. Only scrums get that kind of lee-way but my memory is fussy on this.

Certain lineout penalties you can take the ball out nothing else I think

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 08 Oct 2012, 2:22 pm

I don't think Earls played that well in the 6N. Our best back by quite some distance was Kearney hands down. Didn't hear Schmidt single him out, if I was singling someone out I'd single out I'd pick Lualala and Ryan.

How many times did Earls break the line? Not too many when you consider you don't have to break the line to make a pass. Against England he made an unreal break came to the 15 and decided not to play the simple pass right to Bowe for the try.

Earls is improving here but not as quickly as many try to convince us of. Earls is quick but Kearney, Fitz, Bowe can all keep up with him. Depending on positioning as well and where Earls decides to run you could include Heaslip, Ferris, Healy, O'Brien, Sexton, BOD.

Zebo is very quick but has a very long way to go to be a top class winger or even nearly close. He has 1 (not very successful cap) so don't see how he can be compared to the likes of Jane, Ioane, Bowe, Habanna. He has a lot to achieve before he can be considered in a list like the one above. Personally I don't think his awareness is a strength of his, better than last year though but he is still poor at it.

by **profitius** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 3:03 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Profitius got any info on people from the North?

I forgot about Glenn Ross. Many people in strength sports think he would have been winning the world strongmen competitions if he lost some weight.

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 3:08 pm

Fair play to to you Profitus sir, it takes a brave man to call big Glenn a fatty...... Whistle

.....

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 3:39 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I don't think Earls played that well in the 6N. Our best back by quite some distance was Kearney hands down. Didn't hear Schmidt single him out, if I was singling someone out I'd single out I'd pick Lualala and Ryan.

Didn't Kearney win player of the Tournament?

Schdmit was asked by Lenihan would he make himself available if the union came calling: "Not at the moment. [But] it would be a super opportunity as there is a good group there; Declan has a good group of coaches, especially Less Kiss and Gert Smal. I don’t set goals and the immediacy of what I am doing is pretty fulfilling and all-encompassing."

New Zealander Schmidt also admitted to being a "bit of a Keith Earls fan", but also said that if he could nationalise one Irish player for the All Blacks, it would be a Leinster man.

"I was talking to [All Black] Jerome Kaino after the tests in June and we both said that Sean O’Brien would be right up there, while Cian Healy wouldn’t be far behind."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/1005/sport/joe-not-yet-ready-for-irelands-call-209972.html

How many times did Earls break the line? Not too many when you consider you don't have to break the line to make a pass. Against England he made an unreal break came to the 15 and decided not to play the simple pass right to Bowe for the try.

He was up there as a linebreaker. Stats at the time had him as 2nd in the linebreak in the 6Ns tournament (and that was missing one game).

Earls is improving here but not as quickly as many try to convince us of. Earls is quick but Kearney, Fitz, Bowe can all keep up with him. Depending on positioning as well and where Earls decides to run you could include Heaslip, Ferris, Healy, O'Brien, Sexton, BOD.

Fitz is the only one who can keep up with him. I'd imagine Heaslip & Co would know that most players will head for where the most space is unless you are big enough to run down the opposition. I'm sure Heaslip et al would know that and he shouldn't really have to wonder where his support would want him to run.

Zebo is very quick but has a very long way to go to be a top class winger or even nearly close. He has 1 (not very successful cap) so don't see how he can be compared to the likes of Jane, Ioane, Bowe, Habanna. He has a lot to achieve before he can be considered in a list like the one above. Personally I don't think his awareness is a strength of his, better than last year though but he is still poor at it.

I didn't claim he is the finished product - but he has a lot going for him - brilliant on restarts/good in the air, great offload, good boot and a decent try scoring record at club level (28 starts for Munster, 14 trys - 4 Heineken Cu). Decent for what was his first decent season. Interesting that Ioane also had his first international cap against NZ (2007) - it was a 50-0 thrashing by NZ. His 2nd game was a 14-14 game against Fiji! Habana made his against France 2005 (a draw 30-30 in SA). Bowe had a couple of games against Japan before he started against NZ - Ireland losing at home 7-45.

All in all, Zebo hasn't had a bad debut (42-10 away to the ABs).

By the way, its a bit premature to be comparing him to any of those players - they all have 5 or 6 pro seasons and numerous caps to their name.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:04 pm

Sin é wrote:
Earls is improving here but not as quickly as many try to convince us of. Earls is quick but Kearney, Fitz, Bowe can all keep up with him. Depending on positioning as well and where Earls decides to run you could include Heaslip, Ferris, Healy, O'Brien, Sexton, BOD.

Fitz is the only one who can keep up with him. I'd imagine Heaslip & Co would know that most players will head for where the most space is unless you are big enough to run down the opposition. I'm sure Heaslip et al would know that and he shouldn't really have to wonder where his support would want him to run.

You keep peddling this line but that doesn't make it true.

To use an example look at Conways try for Leinster against the Dragons,Reid made a break and then slowed down and changed direction to allow his support to get to him.If Earls is too quick for his support then he has to make an effort to allow them to catch up,it's a shared responsibility and in truth I don't really notice any other 13 in world rugby having this problem.

by GunsGerms Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:09 pm

I actually do think that Schmidt would take the Ireland job if he was offered it. He has kids and all that but I'm sure he could make it work.

I have it on good authority that Drico absolutly loves working with Schmidt and finds him a fountain of knowledge. I believe that even the usually diplomatic Drico is becoming less patient with Kidney. Some of his recent comments suggest this might be true.

I know Schmidt has just signed a new contract but I reckon he should be asked to take over at the end of the season.

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:16 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Earls is improving here but not as quickly as many try to convince us of. Earls is quick but Kearney, Fitz, Bowe can all keep up with him. Depending on positioning as well and where Earls decides to run you could include Heaslip, Ferris, Healy, O'Brien, Sexton, BOD.

Fitz is the only one who can keep up with him. I'd imagine Heaslip & Co would know that most players will head for where the most space is unless you are big enough to run down the opposition. I'm sure Heaslip et al would know that and he shouldn't really have to wonder where his support would want him to run.

You keep peddling this line but that doesn't make it true.

To use an example look at Conways try for Leinster against the Dragons,Reid made a break and then slowed down and changed direction to allow his support to get to him.If Earls is too quick for his support then he has to make an effort to allow them to catch up,it's a shared responsibility and in truth I don't really notice any other 13 in world rugby having this problem.

How many capped backs did the Dragons have in the team on the day?

Conrad Smith & the rest don't have this problem because they have wingers with pace (you may recall Tommy Bowe being easily caught in the foot race in the world cup).

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:18 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I actually do think that Schmidt would take the Ireland job if he was offered it. He has kids and all that but I'm sure he could make it work.

I have it on good authority that Drico absolutly loves working with Schmidt and finds him a fountain of knowledge. I believe that even the usually diplomatic Drico is becoming less patient with Kidney. Some of his recent comments suggest this might be true.

I know Schmidt has just signed a new contract but I reckon he should be asked to take over at the end of the season.

Hmmm, that contract extension is meant to extend his stay in Ireland so one of the kids can finish in school. Is there not meant to be personal/family reasons that will then pretty much make it certain that he will be heading back to NZ? If the kid wasn't coming towards the end of secondary school, he wouldn't have signed the 1 year extension. Don't know full details though (search 606v2, there is a thread which kind off gives you a bit more flavour though).

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:23 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I actually do think that Schmidt would take the Ireland job if he was offered it. He has kids and all that but I'm sure he could make it work.

I have it on good authority that Drico absolutly loves working with Schmidt and finds him a fountain of knowledge. I believe that even the usually diplomatic Drico is becoming less patient with Kidney. Some of his recent comments suggest this might be true.

I know Schmidt has just signed a new contract but I reckon he should be asked to take over at the end of the season.

Wishful thinking I'd say on your part about Drico losing patience with Kidney - he has hardly been in the Irish camp this year to become impatient (and may account as to why he isn't up to speed on the attack). Ireland/Les Kiss had Drico for a little over a week this season before the 1st NZ game - he didn't even have him for the Barbarians because of the Heineken Cup.

by Mickado Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:24 pm

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Earls is improving here but not as quickly as many try to convince us of. Earls is quick but Kearney, Fitz, Bowe can all keep up with him. Depending on positioning as well and where Earls decides to run you could include Heaslip, Ferris, Healy, O'Brien, Sexton, BOD.

Fitz is the only one who can keep up with him. I'd imagine Heaslip & Co would know that most players will head for where the most space is unless you are big enough to run down the opposition. I'm sure Heaslip et al would know that and he shouldn't really have to wonder where his support would want him to run.

You keep peddling this line but that doesn't make it true.

To use an example look at Conways try for Leinster against the Dragons,Reid made a break and then slowed down and changed direction to allow his support to get to him.If Earls is too quick for his support then he has to make an effort to allow them to catch up,it's a shared responsibility and in truth I don't really notice any other 13 in world rugby having this problem.

How many capped backs did the Dragons have in the team on the day?
Conrad Smith & the rest don't have this problem because they have wingers with pace (you may recall Tommy Bowe being easily caught in the foot race in the world cup).

The Leinster backline had 1 cap between the lot of them that day (Nacewa).

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:24 pm

I recall Earls being caught by McFadden easily enough on Saturday anyways. Showed him the touchline and chased him down easily. Very poor wing play.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
How many capped backs did the Dragons have in the team on the day?

Conrad Smith & the rest don't have this problem because they have wingers with pace (you may recall Tommy Bowe being easily caught in the foot race in the world cup).

Every other 13 in world rugby has wingers with enough pace to keep up with their 13 except Ireland,is that truly your argument?

Also what does the number of caps in the Dragons backline have to do with anything,I'm pointing out that an average centre like Reid understands how to link with his support so why doesn't Earls?

by GunsGerms Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:33 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I actually do think that Schmidt would take the Ireland job if he was offered it. He has kids and all that but I'm sure he could make it work.

I have it on good authority that Drico absolutly loves working with Schmidt and finds him a fountain of knowledge. I believe that even the usually diplomatic Drico is becoming less patient with Kidney. Some of his recent comments suggest this might be true.

I know Schmidt has just signed a new contract but I reckon he should be asked to take over at the end of the season.

Hmmm, that contract extension is meant to extend his stay in Ireland so one of the kids can finish in school. Is there not meant to be personal/family reasons that will then pretty much make it certain that he will be heading back to NZ? If the kid wasn't coming towards the end of secondary school, he wouldn't have signed the 1 year extension. Don't know full details though (search 606v2, there is a thread which kind off gives you a bit more flavour though).

He has a son in Terenure college who I think plays senior cup rugby. Is that the one? Surely he can go to college in Ireland just like Sean Fitzpatrick's daughter cause he works in England. All the IRFU have to do is make him an offer he cant refuse. Put a horse head in his bed or something.

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:36 pm

rodders wrote:I recall Earls being caught by McFadden easily enough on Saturday anyways. Showed him the touchline and chased him down easily. Very poor wing play.

I don't think Earls has played on the wing since the world cup. McFadden is pacy enough anyway.

Some stats from Saturday:

Possession: Leinster 60% Munster 40%

Earls: Kick/Pass/Run: 0/10/9. Tackling: 10/1.
BOD: 3/6/5. Tackling: 9/1.

by GunsGerms Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:37 pm

Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I actually do think that Schmidt would take the Ireland job if he was offered it. He has kids and all that but I'm sure he could make it work.

I have it on good authority that Drico absolutly loves working with Schmidt and finds him a fountain of knowledge. I believe that even the usually diplomatic Drico is becoming less patient with Kidney. Some of his recent comments suggest this might be true.

I know Schmidt has just signed a new contract but I reckon he should be asked to take over at the end of the season.

Wishful thinking I'd say on your part about Drico losing patience with Kidney - he has hardly been in the Irish camp this year to become impatient (and may account as to why he isn't up to speed on the attack). Ireland/Les Kiss had Drico for a little over a week this season before the 1st NZ game - he didn't even have him for the Barbarians because of the Heineken Cup.

How do you know how often he is in contact with Kidney and the Ireland camp. Who would you rather be coached by, an innovator who comes to the training ground every day with new ideas or a coach who has the creativity of an accountant and is still using the same outdated methods he used when coaching Munster and doesnt seem to be open to any ideas.

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:39 pm

Oh McFadden is pacy now is he? I thought only Fitzgerald (who actually isn't) could keep up with him?

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:41 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
How many capped backs did the Dragons have in the team on the day?

Conrad Smith & the rest don't have this problem because they have wingers with pace (you may recall Tommy Bowe being easily caught in the foot race in the world cup).

Every other 13 in world rugby has wingers with enough pace to keep up with their 13 except Ireland,is that truly your argument?

Also what does the number of caps in the Dragons backline have to do with anything,I'm pointing out that an average centre like Reid understands how to link with his support so why doesn't Earls?

Not every other country in the world - just NZ, Australia, SA, France, Wales, Scotland, England all have very pacy wings. No disrespect to the Dragons, but they ain't the All Blacks.

by SecretFly Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:42 pm

If Joe can do the adding and subtractions and all the calculating I think he'll need to drag Leinster through this HEC, and give the team a respectable standing in it come the end (not necessarily a win or indeed even a final place); .... but if he can drag something out of this Leinster that are missing players and tripping over themselves at present with underwhelming play - particularly in defence - then yep, he deserves to be asked to coach Ireland when the time comes. He might well bluntly say no and walk away, I wouldn't be getting my hopes up that he'd necessarily want the job to begin with...but this season will be his true test of leadership that will confirm his candidacy for it. Will he cobble together a respectable showing in this year's HEC? We'll see.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
How many capped backs did the Dragons have in the team on the day?

Conrad Smith & the rest don't have this problem because they have wingers with pace (you may recall Tommy Bowe being easily caught in the foot race in the world cup).

Every other 13 in world rugby has wingers with enough pace to keep up with their 13 except Ireland,is that truly your argument?

Also what does the number of caps in the Dragons backline have to do with anything,I'm pointing out that an average centre like Reid understands how to link with his support so why doesn't Earls?

Not every other country in the world - just NZ, Australia, SA, France, Wales, Scotland, England all have very pacy wings. No disrespect to the Dragons, but they ain't the All Blacks.

Noel Reid ain't exactly Conrad Smith either

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:44 pm

rodders wrote:Oh McFadden is pacy now is he? I thought only Fitzgerald (who actually isn't) could keep up with him?

Fitzy isn't Denis Hickey, but he is pacy. He used to over run a lot, but I think he has sorted that now. McFadden has been exposed a few times at both international & club level.

by Sin é Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:51 pm

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Earls is improving here but not as quickly as many try to convince us of. Earls is quick but Kearney, Fitz, Bowe can all keep up with him. Depending on positioning as well and where Earls decides to run you could include Heaslip, Ferris, Healy, O'Brien, Sexton, BOD.

Fitz is the only one who can keep up with him. I'd imagine Heaslip & Co would know that most players will head for where the most space is unless you are big enough to run down the opposition. I'm sure Heaslip et al would know that and he shouldn't really have to wonder where his support would want him to run.

You keep peddling this line but that doesn't make it true.

To use an example look at Conways try for Leinster against the Dragons,Reid made a break and then slowed down and changed direction to allow his support to get to him.If Earls is too quick for his support then he has to make an effort to allow them to catch up,it's a shared responsibility and in truth I don't really notice any other 13 in world rugby having this problem.

How many capped backs did the Dragons have in the team on the day?
Conrad Smith & the rest don't have this problem because they have wingers with pace (you may recall Tommy Bowe being easily caught in the foot race in the world cup).

The Leinster backline had 1 cap between the lot of them that day (Nacewa).

Leinster were not playing themselves on the day, they were playing the dragons. How many international caps did the opposition have? (There is a clip on Utube of Keith Earls splitting Ulster (mainly inexperienced kids) - if he did that to an international side he would be world player of the year.

by **rodders** Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:53 pm

Over running is a sign of lacking pace, not having it. Slower wingers mistime their runs because they lack confidence in their ability to maintain depth and come up too flat to the ball carrier.

Thats why Bowe times his runs so well, because when he hits the line at pace he is rarely caught because of his pace.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 08 Oct 2012, 4:56 pm

Sin é wrote:
Leinster were not playing themselves on the day, they were playing the dragons. How many international caps did the opposition have? (There is a clip on Utube of Keith Earls splitting Ulster (mainly inexperienced kids) - if he did that to an international side he would be world player of the year.

The break he made isn't the point and you know it.The point is he had the intelligence to change direction and look for his support something which Earls doesn't seem to do.Whether he was playing against the AB's or my clubs 2nds isn't important it's a display of rugby intelligence that by your argument Earls must be lacking.

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