Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[Diggers]

First topic message reminder :

Of course there are shades of grey but ultimately nobody can be sent to jail for saying they would like to kiddy fiddle but won't as it's illegal and cannot include consent by definition.
They go to jail when they break the law by looking at images or worse acts. So what do you do, change the laws ? Having an open debate won't change the laws, it will still come down to the same thing.
So whether they are deemed evil by society or not is ultimately fairly irrelevant as far as I can see. The end game remains the same.

[mystiroakey]

SR celtic have just done very well and deserve praise!! But i think it would be best for all concerned if somehow we got them into the prem

[super_realist]

No one wants the "Ugly Sisters" in the Premier League and it will never ever happen.
I agree they have done well this season, but for the last half dozen they've been worse than the Irish at this years Euro's. Pitiful.

[mystiroakey]

i think it would make the pl a bigger brand.. Its good business

[super_realist]

Not really, Don't you remember Rangers in Manchester in the UEFA cup final? Poisonous.

It will never happen. The FA, UEFA and Premier League have already knocked it back numerous times. It's dead in the water.

[mystiroakey]

Do we have to allways concentrate on the negatives!!

[super_realist]

Do we have to allways concentrate on the negatives!!

It's just being realistic and pragmatic. No point in talking about something which would never happen.

It wouldn't ever get past the stage where the clubs would vote for it. It would be turkeys voting for Christmas. The Ugly Sisters have accepted it and are moving on.

[JAS]

SR celtic have just done very well and deserve praise!! But i think it would be best for all concerned if somehow we got them into the prem

I used to be all for such a move but no not now!!

Scottish clubs are going through financial pain at the moment (almost fatal pain - look at the news coming out of Tynecastle). Taking the 2 remaining cash cows out of the equation to further support the financial gluttony of the EPL would be akin to treason. Scottish clubs need to collectively weather this storm, come out leaner and fitter and learn how to better grow and improve their product.

The EPL gravy train WILL at some point hit the buffers and implode. Rangers and Celtic are working their way through one financial meltdown, no point in jumping ship and placing themselves in the path of another.

[mystiroakey]

JAS its all about the global brand, and expansion.

the more potential fanbase the better

[super_realist]

I wouldn't have thought it would make much difference. The Old Firm are minnows now.

Anyway, it isn't going to happen.

[JAS]

Actually Mysti I'd say only Man U for sure and possibly in the last few years Arsenal Liverpool and Chelsea have a bigger global fanbase and brand than the Old Firm.

The problem with the Old Firm is that they're stuck in a league that hasn't the first clue how to market, promote and improve itself and negotiate decent TV deals. Rangers and Celtic should be looking to influence change there not jump ship to a model that's approaching its sell by date.

[super_realist]

I sincerely doubt the claims of a worldwide fanbase for Celtic and Rangers having any commerical impact for them. There might be a few plastic expats throughout North America who look out for the scores who consider themselves "fans" but what do they really contribute to either club, I sincerely doubt there is anything anywhere else in the world of any worth to the Ugly Sisters.

[mystiroakey]

it would strengthen the PL brand

scotland have to understand they cant produce a top league, you dont have the population.

Put the top teams in the PL which is more of an international brand and league over a nationalitstic football breeding ground. And then the standard scottish league can be used to promote scottish grass roots.

I am personally only looking at this from a business perspective- The PL stimulates our economy and strengthern it in any way is good for all of us

[super_realist]

I disagree that Celtic and Rangers would strengthen the brand. Why would they be any better than Stoke or Newcastle?

[mystiroakey]

firstly they have a massive fan base- also many scots down the line may end up supporting one of the two as well as a local club!

there are loads of people that identify themselves as scots in the states..

bring an irish team in as well- them crazy yanks that think they are irish would go mad for that

[gaelgowfer]

Fantastic win by Celtic. Given how close they came in Barcelona, they thoroughly deserved last night's win and just to inject a little historical perspective, Celtic are former european champions. I daresay there were more than a few sceptics back who claimed they were not up to that task so, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they went quite far in this competition.

The development of scottish football went down the pan when clubs started to buy in foreign players. Who knows how many potential 'Jimmy Johnstones' have been lost to our game in that time. And now we're losing clubs as well with the Jam Tarts likely to be the next casualty.

Incidentally, did anyone see Rod Stewart reduced to floods of tears at Parkhead?

[super_realist]

They only have big fan bases when they are winning. It would take several years for them to become anything other than bottom 6 in England, and still wouldn't break into the top 4 even if they could eventually be stable. Can't see all those "fans" being happy with 5th-6th place every year. No way those two clubs could overtake City, Arsenal, Spurs, Everton, Newcastle etc.

The global fan base thing is a myth anyway in terms of what they contribute in a commercial way. If they did make a difference would Rangers have gone out of business? Plastic supporters anyway. It's like saying your a "fan" of Luke Donald, you might be, but you don't contribute to his bank account.

[mystiroakey]

Rangers arnt/wernt in a league where they could utilse any potential fan base.

in the pl they would get 10 fold(if not way more) the tv revenue and the club would be inviting for potential investment

[JAS]

Do a quick search for Rangers (or Celtic) Supporters Clubs and add U.S. or Canada. Australia, New Zealand even Spain, Germany. Granted most will ex-pats but so what.

Where the old firm have missed out is the SPL not having the marketing clout of the EPL is the Far East markets (which Celtic tried to address a bit by signing Nakamura).

Why would/should the Old Firm want to strengthen the PL brand? It's the grotesque growth of the PL and the diversion of funds and playing talent into it that is the major reason for the lifeblood being completely and utterly sucked out of Scottish football. The PL financial model has worked up until now and probably will continue to do so for a few more years but sooner or later it will crack then implode, the current spiralling of wages and transfers is unsustainable. Of the top teams probably only Arsenal are living within their means and their fans are not happy with the lack of silverware.

Celtic (with McCann) and now Rangers (the hard way) are having to learn to live within their means. I think they should now steer well clear of the PL.

[super_realist]

Well, they might do. But Newcastle/Everton/Liverpool/Spurs get the same money the Ugly Sisters would get and none of them are making title winning waves in the PL are they. In fact Liverpool have wealthy owners, an have way more money than Celtic or Rangers could ever hope for and they are shockingly poor.

Rangers/Celtic were big clubs about 7-8 years ago. They're not big anymore.

JAS, re-read my post. There might be loads of ex-pat Supporters clubs around, but they don't necessarily have a commercial impact or gain for either club.

[mystiroakey]

btw us fans do contribute to donalds pay packet.

for instance if I luke is in contention final round I will watch him..

The USA base everything on viewers. they show players based on what brings in the most tv audience, they do this so they can sell advertising at a higher premium.

As we know this is the reason we get to see every tiger shot in contention or not!!

the more tv coverage a player gets the more the player gets from sponsership..

[Diggers]

Incidentally, did anyone see Rod Stewart reduced to floods of tears at Parkhead?

He's reduced me to tears a few times with his shocking music...

[super_realist]

Incidentally, did anyone see Rod Stewart reduced to floods of tears at Parkhead?

He's reduced me to tears a few times with his shocking music...

Yeah, the X-Factor is much better isn't it?

[mystiroakey]

The PL will not crack - there is no reason for it to, as long as people watch its all good..

The odd team may go bust- but thats life. teams may have to tighting there belts but thats life.

There is to much good about the PL, its a going concern.. Debt is immaterial as long as there are profits

[super_realist]

The PL will not crack - there is no reason for it to, as long as people watch its all good..

The odd team may go bust- but thats life. teams may have to tighting there belts but thats life.

There is to much good about the PL, its a going concern.. Debt is immaterial as long as there are profits

That's the crux. Football is getting too expensive both to watch at the game and on the TV, nothing lasts forever.

[mystiroakey]

Thats why we need to strenghtern the PL brand, and why i think it would be beneficial to look into ways of doing such.

If i thought the PL could easliy maintain being top grossing footy league out there globally and domesitcally then i wouldnt suggest bringing in other teams!

[super_realist]

I think it's already reached the maximum popularity. I can't see it growing much more.

Anyway, the whole Celtic/Rangers thing has been blown out of the water. It isn't going to happen.

[JAS]

Rangers arnt/wernt in a league where they could utilse any potential fan base.

in the pl they would get 10 fold(if not way more) the tv revenue and the club would be inviting for potential investment

...and therein lies exactly the reason I turned away from being genuinely interested in football and the issue that is polarising and will eventually kill it as a worldwide spectacle.
Money is gravitating toward say about 5 leagues.
Fifa want to expand the game throughout the world and take it to new markets (code for top officials taking backhanders from oligarchs in emerging nations - Qatar World Cup 2022??)
Uefa chip in with their "financial fair play bollox" What a load of utter tripe, if uefa had any handle whatsoever on financial fair play their simply wouldn't be a situation where mediocre teams with average home gates of 20000 in 1 league should receive 10 times the TV revenue of the top teams in a neighbouring league with average home gates nearing 50000. No matter which way you fold that and what justification you try and put on it, that is a grotesque distortion and a zillion miles away from financial fair play.

At the end of the day it all comes down to the quote Bobby Jones' biographer made in the early 1930s....

"Money...it's gonna ruin sport"

[Diggers]

Incidentally, did anyone see Rod Stewart reduced to floods of tears at Parkhead?

He's reduced me to tears a few times with his shocking music...

Yeah, the X-Factor is much better isn't it?

It certainly is, loving it this year.

[mystiroakey]

Things are gonna significantly change within sporting teams.

the world is getting smaller and smaller every day.. which is a good thing.

Expand your boundaries or die!

why do you think we keep getting NFL games at wembley,

we should have a few pl games in new york

[JAS]

.. Debt is immaterial as long as there are profits

Oh Dear!!!! That's EXACTLY what the financial markets and experts were saying in 2007!!!

Tick Tick Tick.....

[super_realist]

I think it would be hilarious if the Premier League went jubblies up.

It's like The Titanic, people think it's unsinkable. It isn't.

[mystiroakey]

debt doesnt mean debt in the normal sense JAS-

I am a director and my business has debt to me!!

Its just the way to finacial gear a company or club..

However i do understand the problem with a high debt to equity ration.

The only financial foot hold i would place on football clubs is with the debt equity ratio.

forget max wages etc. but maintain aminimum healthy 70% equity to 3%0 debt in all cases..

Therefore owners of the clubs cant just lend money to there football clubs , they would have to add capital!- therefore they couldnt potential just run and take the money owed!

[mystiroakey]

I think it would be hilarious if the Premier League went jubblies up.

It's like The Titanic, people think it's unsinkable. It isn't.

and that would help us would it??

its helping the country- its a good export and good stimulant!!!

the better british businesses do the better for all of us

[gaelgowfer]

Incidentally, did anyone see Rod Stewart reduced to floods of tears at Parkhead?

He's reduced me to tears a few times with his shocking music...

Agree with you there Digs.

And let's not even mention his big bum!

[super_realist]

I don't think it's that much of a net contributor really Oakey. Sky and the players are the real beneficiaries. I don't think the exchequer is getting that much from them in real terms in comparison to other sources in industry.

[pedro]

Incidentally, did anyone see Rod Stewart reduced to floods of tears at Parkhead?

He's reduced me to tears a few times with his shocking music...

Agree with you there Digs.

And let's not even mention his big bum!

I heard after the match he called Sting and Bryan Adams for a remake of "All for one, and one for all".

[Diggers]

...Even Dubya was probably very intelligent, at least in an academic sense...

Er, no. He wasn't/isn't. He's a former drunken tool who's got where he has via daddy's experience, contacts and money.

He's was also apparently an excellent fighter pilot. Now I dont know a great deal about being a fighter pilot but I do know that you dont become one or indeed excel at it by being utterly stupid, quite the reverse in fact.

[JAS]

I don't think it's that much of a net contributor really Oakey. Sky and the players are the real beneficiaries. I don't think the exchequer is getting that much from them in real terms in comparison to other sources in industry.

....especially if the players use EBTs :-O

I would imagine Sky will employ enough accountancy expertise to enable them to pay as minimal an amount as possible in UK corporation tax on their profits made from us sheep who subscribe. I'd love them to separate football from other sports so that I could subscribe only for the golf and stop subsidising the EPL.

The players wages and its total contribution to the UK economy would be interesting to find out more about. Are most players actually employees of their clubs or do they have their own Companies that are contracted to provide a service to their club?

[super_realist]

It's unsustainable that a company (e.g. a football club) can continue to be profitable if they are paying the vast majority of any money they make in wages.
In my industry salaries account for less than 5%.

[Skydriver]

I would imagine Sky will employ enough accountancy expertise to enable them to pay as minimal an amount as possible in UK corporation tax on their profits made from us sheep who subscribe.

I know it's fashionable to have a go at large businesses and their management of tax affairs at the moment, but Sky's group accounts for year ended 30 Jun 2012 show total profit before tax of £1.2bn, and a tax charge of £283m - which they say is all UK corporation tax (similar figures for the prior year too). Can't say I know a huge amount about the business/industry or anything about this particular company's attitute towards tax risk etc, but that doesn't seem an unreasonably low amount on the face of it.

[super_realist]

Financial services provide in excess of 50bn in taxes per annum. Oil and Gas not too far behind.

Sky's tax bill is pretty small beer and we'd barely notice the difference if Football ate itself.

[mystiroakey]

its not just corp tax revenue sr, its employment, its gdp, its income tax.

but the most important factor is intanglble- its spreads britain around the globe, extra business comes from that

[super_realist]

I just mentioned the tax Oakey, it's a drop in the ocean.

Care to mention any multinational companies who have set up here due to the EPL?

Okay, it's got it's benefits on a small scale, but really, if it went bust it wouldn't be much different to a major retailer going out of business.

[mystiroakey]

basically whatever people over here feel. there is a cool britainia factor in vairous markets(asia and us mainly)

we are pretty cool!! many nations want some our our action. The PL is a contributer to that, as is our tv ,our actors, our music,our fashion, etc.

therefore we get investment and tourism

We need to keep shoving it down there necks - otherwise our small nation could just sink

[super_realist]

I think you are looking through rose tinted glasses Oakey.
Cool? I don't think so. Probably the least cool nation in Northern Europe.

[mystiroakey]

gonna have to disagree on that one mate..

we export coolness,

[gaelgowfer]

He's was also apparently an excellent fighter pilot.

Digs ... just a shame the draft-dodging president didn't choose to deploy those skills where it mattered ... in Vietnam!

[super_realist]

gonna have to disagree on that one mate..

we export coolness,

What sort of taxes does that raise?

[mystiroakey]

alot is intangible-We are in the eyes of the business world due to having a massively high presence around the globe. It allows our businesses a better platform

but yeah we sell shead loads of music, fashion, tv etc

[navyblueshorts]

He's was also apparently an excellent fighter pilot. Now I dont know a great deal about being a fighter pilot but I do know that you dont become one or indeed excel at it by being utterly stupid, quite the reverse in fact.

Of course he was. That was why he was up in the skies over Vietnam and Cambodia. Or was he such a Top Gun, he was teaching those on the front line?

Edit: Drat! Beat me to the punch Gael!

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