Irish Autumn Squad-BOD AND BEST OUT!

First topic message reminder :

So Kidney announces his squad today, a 32 man panel against the boks and pumas. More players come into consideration for the Fiji game.

A 31 man Ireland squad including four uncapped players has been named by Ireland Coach Declan Kidney for the 2012 Guinness Series games against South Africa, Fiji and Argentina.

Centre Luke Marshall and forward Iain Henderson named in the panel and who were involved in the Ireland training camp in September are included in the squad as are prop David Kilcoyne and hooker Richardt Strauss, who is now eligible to play for Ireland based on his residency for the past three years.
In addition to the naming of the Ireland squad for the 2012 Guinness Series, there were also changes announced to the makeup of the national coaching staff with current Munster Assistant Coach and former international Anthony Foley joining the Ireland coaching team.

Foley will be now be leading the defence plans and systems allowing Assistant Coach Les Kiss to lead the attack shape for the team as well as continue to coach the backline. Foley will remain working with Munster Rugby outside of the international window. It was also confirmed that Leinster scrum coach, Greg Feek will continue providing his expertise to the Ireland team during competition time.

Commenting on the Guinness Series games and the addition of Anthony Foley, Ireland Coach Declan Kidney said: "We have three incredibly competitive games ahead of us in November and while there have been quite a few injuries and niggles in the early part of the season, it has opened up opportunities for other players to step into the squad. There are world ranking points on offer, so the underlying challenge for us is to work towards retaining and improving our ranking position ahead of the Rugby World Cup pool draw. While that is the end goal, our focus will be getting our preparations right to match the intensity of international games.

"I'm pleased that Anthony has taken up the offer of working with the squad to assist during this vital period in November. His previous experience of working with the team during the last RBS 6 Nations championship was important, but his own abilities and experience were central to bringing him onboard. I would like to thank Rob Penney and Joe Schmidt for being so positive and giving Anthony Foley and Greg (Feek) the scope to be part of the plans that we have."

Anthony Foley said: "I was delighted when Declan approached Rob and me about the possibility of working with the Ireland team again. I enjoyed the opportunity I got during the Six Nations working with the players and I felt once we were all comfortable with the balance between Munster and Ireland, I jumped at the chance. I certainly feel I can contribute positively and when you get the chance to coach with your country, you don't want to pass it up.

Ticket sales have reached over 46,000 for the South Africa game with only a limited number of categories available for purchase from IrishRugby.ie and www.ticketmaster.ie

While the Argentina game is a full month away, ticket sales are at just over 37,000 tickets and are selling quickly and have already surpassed the attendance the last time Argentina visited the Aviva.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Did anyone see how many times last night on rugby club that the lions was refered to as the "british lions". Quinell even went one better by saying that "we are all british".

Lol,ah well in fairness the full title is a mouthful and correct me if I'm wrong but they were callled the British Lions when those guys were growing up.It can be hard to change your way of thinking on something like that.

Why cant they just call it the lions? Its like they are trying to annoy us or something. The team used to be called the British isles lions. Until someone with a brain finally got the name changed.

I think I heard somewhere that it was Keith Wood who kicked up a fuss and got it changed,won't stake my life on it just something sitting in the back of my head.

Yeah just calling it The Lions would be better but generally these things are decided by committees made up of an older,more conservative generation.

When....Scotland gets it's independence........okay, IF they go for Independence, it's gonna become an even bigger mouthful

The British, Irish and One Token Scot Lions

It's not going to work, is it?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Did anyone see how many times last night on rugby club that the lions was refered to as the "british lions". Quinell even went one better by saying that "we are all british".

Lol,ah well in fairness the full title is a mouthful and correct me if I'm wrong but they were callled the British Lions when those guys were growing up.It can be hard to change your way of thinking on something like that.

Why cant they just call it the lions? Its like they are trying to annoy us or something. The team used to be called the British isles lions. Until someone with a brain finally got the name changed.

I can give you a list of historians in academic journals who rail against the term 'British Isles'. How about 'the British and Irish Isles Lions', or my personal favourite, 'These islands Lions'. Also JGA Pocock labelled the area the Atlantic archipelago. Hmmmmm. The Atlantic Archipelago Lions. It's got a ring to it.
The British Isles is imperialism you see (apparently). I gave a paper at a conference about something in the early modern period and just slipped it in without thinking and I got mauled by a terribly annoyed older lady in the audience for my British imperial agenda. She even called me a trojan horse. Hung like one maybe, but thats about it. Oh, and I do have silky smooth hair too.

I don't see the issue with "British Isles".

Obviously Republic of Ireland is not British but surely as long as N.Ireland is British its correct to call Ireland one of the British Isles?

Certainly from a rugby point of view all the Southern Hemisphere nations see us as "The British Isles".

SecretFly wrote:When....Scotland gets it's independence........okay, IF they go for Independence, it's gonna become an even bigger mouthful

The British, Irish and One Token Scot Lions

It's not going to work, is it?

Just calling it the lions would work... Of course we always have to try complicate things.

I always call it The Lions. It's easy. People just need to getinto the habit....

Maybe "The Lions" is taken as a registered trading name. It is a professional entity so needs to avoid a clash of trading names with another rugby team.

Apparently this is one reason Cardiff can't rebrand as The Blues due to Auckland Blues changing their name.

Not sure how much truth there is to this.

red_stag wrote:I don't see the issue with "British Isles".

Obviously Republic of Ireland is not British but surely as long as N.Ireland is British its correct to call Ireland one of the British Isles?

Certainly from a rugby point of view all the Southern Hemisphere nations see us as "The British Isles".

You don't see an issue because you are normal(ish). Come to a history conference. It makes these boards seem like the work going on at the hadron collider. Also technically Northern Ireland isn't British. It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Really we (as I am British from the north- save your boos for Paddy Wallace) should be called united kingdomish...united kingdomers....something like that. British is easier.

I think Donal Lenihan had something to do with it too, it changed on the Aussie tour in 2001.

Tremendous decision.

red_stag wrote:I don't see the issue with "British Isles".

Obviously Republic of Ireland is not British but surely as long as N.Ireland is British its correct to call Ireland one of the British Isles?

Certainly from a rugby point of view all the Southern Hemisphere nations see us as "The British Isles".

Your joking right?

red_stag wrote:I don't see the issue with "British Isles".

Obviously Republic of Ireland is not British but surely as long as N.Ireland is British its correct to call Ireland one of the British Isles?

Certainly from a rugby point of view all the Southern Hemisphere nations see us as "The British Isles".

.....but we don't.

The British Isles might pretend to be a geographical term but it has been used for too long in its political sense. The Southern Hemisphere nations hardly know the details of these islands much less the political reality that both unites (friendship) and divides (two nations) them.

I might as well say that both New Zealand and Australia are 'Home Nations' given that their connection to the UK (through their shared Head of State) is even more real than the friendship one that exists between the Republic and the UK.

Do we really think the New Zealanders and Aussies would like us to call them such?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

red_stag wrote:I don't see the issue with "British Isles".

Obviously Republic of Ireland is not British but surely as long as N.Ireland is British its correct to call Ireland one of the British Isles?

Certainly from a rugby point of view all the Southern Hemisphere nations see us as "The British Isles".

Your joking right?

No Im not joking. While I am as patriotic and proud as any Irishman, people who get miffed about our Ireland being referred to as part of the British Isles needs to chill out and cop on.

There are a hell of a lot of issues in the world; this is not one of them.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

red_stag wrote:I don't see the issue with "British Isles".

Obviously Republic of Ireland is not British but surely as long as N.Ireland is British its correct to call Ireland one of the British Isles?

Certainly from a rugby point of view all the Southern Hemisphere nations see us as "The British Isles".

Your joking right?

No Im not joking. While I am as patriotic and proud as any Irishman, people who get miffed about our Ireland being referred to as part of the British Isles needs to chill out and cop on.

There are a hell of a lot of issues in the world; this is not one of them.

I just cant believe what i am reading.

LeinsterFan,

Will you explain the issue to me.

As HookismsandHyperboles said I dont see the issue as I am normal(ish).

Seriously whats the problem.

The British Isles were named as such by the Romans weren't they? With the largest of the two named Great Britain... not because it is anyway greater than the smaller one of course....

Anyways point being the term British Isles is often associated with British rather than Roman colonialism.

Correct rodders and like all good propagandists - the British Empire started believing in the other meaning of Great and in general thought it a great title to go pillaging and invading on

Yes, it's an ancient issue, yes this is a modern world, yes we're hopefully done with the violence that was so much a part of it - but it remains a nice little gesture of mutual respect to call a Nation by what it regards itself as. One of them is considered politically British, the other is politically Irish.

Or my solution - The Lions.

Fair point Fly, don't shoot the messenger though pal...staggy is the colonialist.... .....


(just joking Stag )

Lots of posters letting off a bit of steam today!

red_stag wrote:LeinsterFan,

Will you explain the issue to me.

As HookismsandHyperboles said I dont see the issue as I am normal(ish).

Seriously whats the problem.

I wont answer this at the risk of the thread becoming too political. We'll leave it there.

It's a small wee island on the edge of a big sea we share together lads.

These days it's a relatively short trip on an airplane to get to somewhere where people have no idea about the differences between British, Irish, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Cathoilc, Protestant, Republican etc. They don't know or care about our little hyper-local peccadilloes and problems.

And I find that refreshing, in some ways.

So how did POM play at 7 for Munster last night? Did his performance prove he is the right option to pick at 7 for the AIs?

Notch wrote:It's a small wee island on the edge of a big sea we share together lads.

These days it's a relatively short trip on an airplane to get to somewhere where people have no idea about the differences between British, Irish, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Cathoilc, Protestant, Republican etc. They don't know or care about our little hyper-local peccadilloes and problems.

And I find that refreshing, in some ways.

I was going to have to question what a piccadildo might be. I'm not one to judge you Notch, its the twenty-first century after all. You live your life how you want. We are proud of you no matter what.

Everyday's a schoolday eh?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/peccadilloes

n. pl. pec·ca·dil·loes or pec·ca·dil·los
A small sin or fault.

[Spanish pecadillo, diminutive of pecado, sin, and Italian peccadiglio, diminutive of peccato, sin, both from Latin pecctum, from neuter of pecctus, past participle of peccre, to sin; see ped- in Indo-European roots.]

Happy to contribute to your education

Notch wrote:Everyday's a schoolday eh?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/peccadilloes

n. pl. pec·ca·dil·loes or pec·ca·dil·los
A small sin or fault.

[Spanish pecadillo, diminutive of pecado, sin, and Italian peccadiglio, diminutive of peccato, sin, both from Latin pecctum, from neuter of pecctus, past participle of peccre, to sin; see ped- in Indo-European roots.]

Happy to contribute to your education

My smutty mind took it elsewhere. Just like the Newport sponser Discount Tyres, where the tyre representing the O looks like a big C. I found it very distracting. My mate pointed out that Newport played like a useless bunch of them as well.

Yeah I think Donal Lenihan was behind the name change. It's just more respectful to the Irish to put them in the name. The Republic is a separate and very proudly independent (before 2010) country after all.

But I agree with stag. I don't see the issue with the term British isles. It's just a name. But I've always found that most Irish people, and particularly older ones, are just hyper sensitive to being lumped in with the British. But if you know what you are yourself then who cares if somebody else mistakenly thinks your're British? That doesn't somehow un-Irish you.

And the Scots won't vote for independence (although I'd love if they did). To many scary unknowns and variables, and being part of the UK isn't bad for them. It's nothing like our experience of union with Britain in the 1800's. We had to break free because we were being treated intolerably and an unusually large number of people had starved to death. The Scots get a good deal out of UK.

Right now they reckon a third of Scots support independence, but if it could be proven that Scotland WOULD be better off those undecideds and some of the pro-Union voters would swing to independence in a big way.

Scotland has felt for a long time like an independent nation in waiting, but can't see it this generation... the variables in Scottish independence are so complex it's hard to predict exactly how they will do on their own. The success of an Independent Scotland would probably be decided on the basis of what they manage to get out of the negotiations with the UK that would happen after a 'Yes' vote in the referendum. Salmond needs convincing answers on currency and Europe to bring some of his doubters over to the 'Yes' side but it's very hard to tell whats going to happen there.

If Alex Salmond can convince the voting public that they'll never have a better negotiating position than this he may have a chance, but in times of economic uncertainty people err towards supporting the status quo. Really hard to call.

RE the British Isles is actually an incorrect term even geographically and is used politically but regardless...in Aus/NZ your average unintelligent man in the street probably still thinks Ireland is part of Britain so I would read to much into it.

I dont care for the terms but if people use it fair enough. Its how its used is what can be annoying.

RE Scottish independence....its their call but I do say one thing. There is only one nationality thats British. The scots the welsh and english (or Norn Irish) can say all they want but at the end of the day whether they feel like an independent nation it doesnt matter. They are no different than the Bundesland in Germany. It is just the vagaries of sport that make them different and the fact that for Rugby there would only have been 3 or 4 teams internationally worth speaking of up to recently...

Just considering people are talking about Lions names etc what Irish players could/should make the squad??????

There are a number of near certs but some I'm sure will be very tight calls

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Just considering people are talking about Lions names etc what Irish players could/should make the squad??????

There are a number of near certs but some I'm sure will be very tight calls

It really depends on the autumn internationals and the Six Nations, and to a lesser extent the rest of the european competitions. At the end of last season I would have thought Richie Gray, David Denton and Ross Rennie would be near definite. Every dreadful Edinburgh performance or Sale performance puts it at risk. Same with Falateau for Newport. The Welsh having their coach sitting out the Six Nations doesn't help their cause, especially after their bone headed incompetence away to the worst Australia in my lifetime. As for Ireland I think there will some players who won't make it down to what I imagine will be another brutal season internationally. I would imagine Best is a certainty, as is O'Connell and Ferris if fit. Sexton will go as the Lions are really very weak at 10 and he is the best of a bad bunch. Kearney will be a certainty as well, and I would imagine Bowe as well. Then you have Healy who will probably go but not a certainty. The rest are too close to call. BOD obviously needs a good season- his saving grace is that the Lions are weak from 9 to 13. I wouldn't be surprised to see an Irish bolter in O'straussghnessy at hooker as for me he would start for all the British teams. Players like O'Brien, Heaslip and Ryan need to be in good form considering the competition in their positions. The Australians have probably the poorest pack of all the 'big ten' nations and that is where the tour will be won and lost. They have exceptional backs when they are a) fit, and b) get the ball.

Good summary Hook. A lot still to play obviously, like you said.
The Lions are quite weak at 10 and hooker I think this season. I think the centres and back 3 should be fine, mostly Welsh I'd guess.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Good summary Hook. A lot still to play obviously, like you said.
The Lions are quite weak at 10 and hooker I think this season. I think the centres and back 3 should be fine, mostly Welsh I'd guess.

I think Strauss and Best are the two best hookers in the northern hemisphere by a fair distance. I think the Lions are really weak at 9 and 10 and if we were playing the All Blacks or South Africa I think we would be in trouble. Roberts is limited, but with the right partner is very effective. Davies is average at 13 but better than the English or Scottish options, and BOD for me isn't near what he was. He offers very little in attack these days though still usually excellent in defence. The game against Scarlets though was another example of him being beaten on the outside shoulder which is becoming a weakness and truth be told I think the Australians would really exploit him there. You would imagine Cuthbert, North and Bowe will definitely go as the wings, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a starting Lions lineup with Kearney at 15 and Halfpenny on the wing. Given Gatland's liking for physicality then someone like Trimble might be a longshot as he is playing very well this season and is very physical, but probably unlikely. 10 is a worry, there might be a late bolter there too. There are a lot of tossups in the backrow. You have Tipuric and Warburton as the two best 7s on last season, O'Brien who outplayed McCaw in the first two tests in New Zealand, Rennie and Robshaw. That's too close to call. Remember the last tour they said Ryan Jones was a certainty to tour and captain the side- he didn't even go.

Yeah excellent point. There are some good options at 9 I think however, Care, Youngs are both quite good at the moment I think.

From an Irish perspective:

DEFINITES:

Healy, Best, POC, Ferris, Sexton, BOD, Bowe, Kearney

MAYBES:

Strauss, Ryan, Heaslip, SOB, Murray, Darcy, Earls, Zebo, Trimble

LONG SHOTS:

Cronin, Ross, DOC, Tuohy, Henry, POM, McLaughlin, Reddan, Jackson/Madigan/Keatly, McFadden, Cave, Jones, Gilroy, K2

DEFINITES:

Healy, Best, POC, Ferris, Sexton, BOD, Kearney, SOB

MAYBES:

Strauss, Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, Bowe, Ross

LONG SHOTS:

POM, Trimble, Zebo, Reddan, Luke Marshall, Hanaran, Henderson, Gilroy

NO CHANCE:

D'arcy, ROG, DOC,Cronin, Court, everyone else.

It's the lions against Aus...who cares

DOD wrote:It's the lions against Aus...who cares

The Brits and Ozzies of course......

Oh BOD and ROG too... those lads have legacies you know ....

rodders wrote:

DOD wrote:It's the lions against Aus...who cares

The Brits and Ozzies of course......

Oh BOD and ROG too... those lads have legacies you know ....

Are they giving a free bus pass with this tour?

Heaslip is a lions cert at this stage.

He is playing much better than Denton, Morgan and faletau. I don't think he hs hit 09/10 form but he isn't a million miles off.

Standulstermen wrote:Heaslip is a lions cert at this stage.

He is playing much better than Denton, Morgan and faletau. I don't think he hs hit 09/10 form but he isn't a million miles off.

Says it all if that's the case

Oh and lets wait for the internationals, Jamie will no doubt go awol while Faletau will no doubt play brilliantly.

Irrespective of your irrational dislike for the guy, in this form he is the lions 8. Of much more concern should be warburtons form. He won't make the plane never mind captain the tour. As for your 'who cares'

Well....

Could we make a seperate Lions thread please? Besides, may as well change the name to the "its too difficult to beat them so lets team up tour". Never got it - doesn't interest me. I'll watch it, cause I love rugby, but passion will be absent!

So, everyone agree on Trimble starting against SA?

clivemcl wrote:

So, everyone agree on Trimble starting against SA?

He could do, but if O Driscoll is fit and we call up someone for full back i would imagine earls would play wing with bowe. Zebo can feel disappointed too if he doesnt get selected. That was Trimbles first good game where he stood out, in a good while.

Clive,
Trimble' s International time has come and gone Im afraid. Too many and too much talent , coming through on the wing for him to sustain his Irish spot. Once my strong preference over Bowe even. Not now. He may make the bench. But I think Deccie will bring Zebo in to replace him. On the bench that is.

We need Fitz back. Zebo, Kearney jr, Gilroy, yada, yada... are not and never will be - a patch on him.

If Darcy plays at 12, McFadden will be on the wing, Bowe on the other. And McFadden is a centre, not a winger. But Deccie likes it that way. I don' t. Id have Earls there and leave him there... until Fitz comes back. And McFadden at 12. Darcy will follow Trimble out the door when the next coach comes in, imho.

Really want Felix Jones at 15 v the Saffers. Lad deserves a decent run. Our only other natural, attacking FB, in the Kearney mould. Leinster Way reared, he has come through some hard times with serious injuries and their bad timing, in his young career. It would finish a mere mortal. But he rocks straight back. A true Pro. A born International. Love im.

The only reason jones should be in with a shout is if earls and Kearney are both out. Gibbo, you have a cheek to say trimbles time has come and gone and then bring up fitz. McFadden is another who has been wasted IMO.

I would have no issue with either Zebo or Trimble starting. That also isn't trimbles first good game. He has played very well for a few games now after an ok start.

First choice for me would be

Trimble/Zebo, Earls, Bowe

I would then be looking to give whoever didn't get the SA game between Trimble and Zebo the Argentina game

Standulstermen wrote:The only reason jones should be in with a shout is if earls and Kearney are both out. Gibbo, you have a cheek to say trimbles time has come and gone and then bring up fitz. McFadden is another who has been wasted IMO.

I would have no issue with either Zebo or Trimble starting. That also isn't trimbles first good game. He has played very well for a few games now after an ok start.

First choice for me would be

Trimble/Zebo, Earls, Bowe

I would then be looking to give whoever didn't get the SA game between Trimble and Zebo the Argentina game

That wasn't just a good game by Trimble. And it was a game where he significantly outplayed outshined Bowe. Albeit, he was out of position. Commentator mentioned it, and its true Trimble smashes people in every game. His physicality is immense, and his positional play is better than ever. One drawback i would admit is he doesn't find the line often enough. But I reckon thats a little to do with the fact Ulster manage to score before it gets slung out to the wings.

I'm well and truely fed up with the notion of McFadden on the wing, especially with Bowe, trimble, zebo, gilroy, earls available.

Trimble has been improving steadily since the Munster game and over the last 2 or 3 games has been outstanding, so its not just based on one game. He also played well down in NZ. People were writing him off prematurely because of Gilroys form and he has answered his critics big time. He's probably the form outside back in the country.

That said there is a compelling argument for Zebo too, given his try scoring record, and if I was picking on form alone I'd have Zebo on the left and Trimble on the right. However Bowe's international record is unparalleled amongst the Irish backs, BOD excepted, and with him easing back to form as well I feel he has to start somewhere. Ulster have also been really effective using two big powerful wings, something we haven't seen for Ireland since we thrashed England in 2011.

Right those 3 are way out ahead of the others for the wing spots in my opinion.

clivemcl wrote:
That wasn't just a good game by Trimble. And it was a game where he significantly outplayed outshined Bowe. Albeit, he was out of position. Commentator mentioned it, and its true Trimble smashes people in every game. His physicality is immense, and his positional play is better than ever. One drawback i would admit is he doesn't find the line often enough. But I reckon thats a little to do with the fact Ulster manage to score before it gets slung out to the wings.

Totally agree Clive. I think Trimbs is our highest try scoring back this year so far though with 3?

Well disappointing is the overall theme, some mystifying absenses. There's some inter provincial bull on this thread, only thing I will say is those writing off POM need their head examined. If we had written Sexton off after 7 games for Ireland, then we would probably be playing ROG again.


POM can play 7 but is at his best at 6 or 8, he could start for us, Heaslip has improved somewhat but jesus he was a dire for long portions of last year.

Standulstermen wrote:Irrespective of your irrational dislike for the guy, in this form he is the lions 8. Of much more concern should be warburtons form. He won't make the plane never mind captain the tour. As for your 'who cares'

Well....

Regarding Heaslip I think he is/was a great player but find him annoying in an Irish shirt lately. As for the lions what I mean is that the intl games will determine who is on the plane and based on the last few Morgan and Faletau are ahead and the autumn games will have more of a bearing on selection than a few league HC games.

As for tradition which seems to be the big thing with the lions a tour to Aus is a new thing in the past they only played as a warm up or down from the NZ games. Its bad enough that the lions rarely win in NZ and sa but taking on the might of Aus? Would much rather Ireland going on tour

DOD wrote:Would much rather Ireland going on tour

I agree with you there.