Keeping the Wheels on - AKA England's next EPS

First topic message reminder :

After a remarkable finish to the Autumn series Stuart Lancaster and his coaches next mission will be the new years EPS. Chosen in January it will not be open for change until Sep that year (except swaps for injuries) so he'll need to plan well and pick not only on current form but prior experience and future potential.

In the final game of the AI's the starting team that day showed the route that England rugby needs to take on the pitch; hard and aggressive up front with the pack sharing the duties of fetching, carrying and rucking amongst a core group of multi skilled players rather then selecting various specialists for one or two specific roles. In the backs we say a few glimpses of the Catt/Farrel/Lancaster triumvirate in action with Youngs getting some quick ball and kicking well, and the 10 drawing his centres up to the line at pace and actually giving Tuilagi good ball to use. The left wing and full back then create momentum from the back by beating their first man when countering and staying tall in the tackle to wait for support.

Of course there were players who failed to cover themselves in glory like wise others who were never deemed good enough to get a chance or who were only in because of multiple injuries. These I expect to see fall by the road side next year.

The current England Elite Player Squad

Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), David Paice (London Irish)
Locks
Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Anthony Allan (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), (Ugo Monye (Harlequins))
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

Players in italics were the latest changes allowed through injury or retirement (potentially the most likely to lose their spots again).

So to me the bulk of that 32 man squad looks about right, there are still quite a few players that are potentially a little worried about their places now:

Mako Vunipola (only came in for an injured Corbs but didn't look too comfy at times)
Rob Webber (Youngs looked a lot better and Hartley is still first choice)
David Paice (only came in for an injured Webber, didn't play better then Youngs or Hartley)
Mauritz Botha (just not an international lock, shown up completely by Launchberry)
Tom Palmer (anonymous around the park and not good enough at lineout time)
Courtney Lawes (injured a lot, is he big enough to partner Parling or athletic enough to partner Launchberry)
Tom Johnson (just doesn't play the style that England seem to need)
Tom Croft (injured and does his style fit England)
Phil Dowson (over 30 and can't make the match day 23)
James Haskell (Only came in for injuries, not sure if he did enough to stay)
Thomas Waldrom (pushed out of the starting lineup and hardly likely to make the bench)
Lee Dickson (can't make the match day 23)
Anthony Allan (can not make the 23, average club player)
Brad Barritt (bar one game looked out of his depth, potentially a new Noone)
Jordan Turner Hall (Like Barritt but less pace and no real vision, injured at a bad time)
Chris Ashton (A media darling but lazy in defence and pretty anonymous in most games, riding on rep at the moment)
Ugo Monye (only called up for injuries, didn't do enough)
Charlie Sharples (poor defence let him down)
Ben Foden (unlucky with an injury and now has two critical players in front of him)

Now I don't think all of these players will go, but there are a few who are near certainties.

Yappysnap's Elite Player Squad
Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchberry (London Wasps), David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), George Lowe (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints),Christian Wade (Wasps)
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The changes are
David Wilson did enough to get in to the EPS permanently
Nick Wood comes in to replace Vunipola as a trial
Tom Youngs replaces Webber as very real competition for Hartley
Dave Attwood comes in for Palmer to add some bulk and physicality if needed
James Haskell takes Johnsons place as he adds a bit more physicality and covers the back three
Billy Vunipola is trialled in Waldroms place to see his carrying game
Freddue Burns gets a permanent spot for Hodgeson
George Lowe, Billy Twelvetrees and Kyle Eastmond all come in to the squad to trial different attributes in the centres as well as cover the wings if needed.
Christian Wade comes in on the wing

Cumbrian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think its very hard to be critical of Exeter or Baxter....theyve done excellent...the sum is greater than the individuals.

So first 6n game is looking like...(my prefered in brackets)

1 Marler
2 Hartley (Youngs)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Farrell (Burns)
11 Foden (Wade)
12 Barritt (Twelvetrees)
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Personally I think Alex Goode will be fullback. He is due to return to action next week and is the man in possession of the shirt. This will leave Foden on the bench and Brown back on the wing.

I am beginning to wonder if Tom Youngs has done enough to displace Hartley too. He has shown himself to be a better carrier and his lineout work has seemed okay from what I recall. He is also the man in possession; I think Hartley has a hell of a fight on his hand to get the shirt back.

Can’t really argue with the rest of your team considering Corbisiero’s injury.

Take out their ages and experience and just look at performances and you have to say that Youngs has just as much reason to start as Hartley. Dylan started the Xmas period well for Saints but has looked pretty lost in the last two games, Youngs (who I didn't rate to begin with) now looks a class above a lot of the other hookers in the league and to me has done nothing to deserve being dropped.

FES, Corbs is injured and pretty much wont make the game....and whilst Whilst Lawes is apparently on fire at the moment...theres no way he should replace Launchbury...id rather he replaced Parling IF that was going to happen...but i dont think Parling warrants dropping as his loose and tight work were both excellent...and he was the top lineout guy in the whole AI i believe...or certainly right up there.

4 Launchbury
5 Parling
20 Lawes

GeordieFalcon wrote:FES, Corbs is injured and pretty much wont make the game....and whilst Whilst Lawes is apparently on fire at the moment...theres no way he should replace Launchbury...id rather he replaced Parling IF that was going to happen...but i dont think Parling warrants dropping as his loose and tight work were both excellent...and he was the top lineout guy in the whole AI i believe...or certainly right up there.

4 Launchbury
5 Parling
20 Lawes

+1

For now. The competition for spots is really heating up and that is wonderful.

Put Marler in then and have Vunipola on the bench.

You need Parling for the boring old dirty work locks need to do. Winning lineouts, making tackles and hitting rucks.

There's a fair debate over having Launchbury starting and Lawes on the bench, or vice versa. I don't feel that strongly. Lawes' performance at the weekend is fresh in my mind, which is why I went for him, but I saw Wasps beat Bath the other week and thought Launchbury was outstanding in that match. It's a position of strength, and I can easily see both sides. Both are excellent players.

Lawes off the bench for sure. He's been on fire for Saints and his first half against Castres this weekend was monstorous. None of his huge hits per say, but great athletic covering tackles, catching of the high balls, and dominated the lineouts.

Off the bench he could be ferocious.

I think launchbury offers just great consistent all round play...he can litterally do the lot...strength, lineout, defence, great carrying, good hands, great engine...and he never seems to let the level of performance drop...

I understnad Lawes lineout is improving beyond imaginable...but does it compare yet to Parling?...and can he run an international lineout...or does that job go to Wood. Launchbury and Lawes could be a fearsome second row...and probably one i would look to in the next year...certainly giving it some gametime this 6n.

Dont forget though theres others like Slater and Kruis coming through aswell...that look very impressive...things are looking rosey for the Red Rose...

Regarding Hartley & Youngs I'm pretty happy for either to start and think there is a certain amount of horses for courses and dependency on the make up of the rest of the squad. Youngs seems to do more of the headline carrying stuff, but Hartley has concentrated more on the tight & breakdown stuff in recent years, he also does a decent job as a linkman. I remember when someone did a stat analysis of all the frontrows in last year's 6N that Hartley came out at the top for passes, offloads & tackles.

Some games we'll want the extra penetration and go forward that Youngs offers, and some games we'll want the more controlling aspects that Hartley offers. Not having the meatiest 2nd row or flankers, I'd probably also opt for the heavier Hartley against the likes of the French scrum.

Hartley/Youngs in the AP this season

Matches 9/9
Tries 2/0
Try Assists 1/0
Passes 25/11
Carries 55/51
Metres Carried 72/40
Clean Breaks 0/0
Offloads 7/2
Defenders Beaten 5/4
Tackles 55/62
Missed Tackles 8/9

HHmmm very interesting stats....

Yellow cards?

Only kidding. I'd start Hartley personally, and have Youngs on the bench.

Blimey didn't expect those stats. Fair play to Hartley he does a lot more then given credit for. I second Timhen's thoughts really, either can start as we're now lucky enough to have two quality hookers.

Def start Hartley against the Welsh though

Any one got any thoughts of who should start between Youngs and Care?

Didn't really watch Youngs game on the weekend but Care was very good against Connacht, dealt very well with a very negative breakdown and got the ball out well to the backs.

As to third scrum half, I thought Lee Dickson was awful for Saints, I've never really rated Simpson either except as a sprinter but perhaps he should be looked at more closely?

Glas a du wrote:

Looking forward to that game already! How's your new coach doing at pre-match banter??

If he's as good at that as he is at being the coach, terrible.

I'd go for Youngs personally, Care on the bench and Simpson as third choice.

That's three superb options to have in my view. It's been a while since us Scots were really jealous of England's scrum half options (come back Perry and Gomersall), but right now you have at least three players better than our likely options for Twickenham.

Its also a lot down to how they fit into the team. Youngs has the priceless ability to generate momentum in next to no space. He has tremendous acceleration and dynamism, something that can be lacking at national level

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think launchbury offers just great consistent all round play...he can litterally do the lot...strength, lineout, defence, great carrying, good hands, great engine...and he never seems to let the level of performance drop...

I understnad Lawes lineout is improving beyond imaginable...but does it compare yet to Parling?...and can he run an international lineout...or does that job go to Wood. Launchbury and Lawes could be a fearsome second row...and probably one i would look to in the next year...certainly giving it some gametime this 6n.

Dont forget though theres others like Slater and Kruis coming through aswell...that look very impressive...things are looking rosey for the Red Rose...

GF i'd think we'd be looking at Launchburry running the line-out it seems like he's been doing that for Wasps with Palmer out. Lawes as a jumper but I don't think he's got the brains for line-out running. A SR of 4. Launchburry 5. Lawes 19. Parling looks like a superb combination with a bit of longevity thrown in. Now all we need is another young prospect to start pushing up - Kitchener has been doing well at Tigers and Savage at Gloucester is abrasive and will hopefully push on next season. Probably just missed out on the Saxons with Botha, Deacon and Palmer taking up the spaces.

I'm still not convinced on Robson. He does some excellent line-out work but his open play lacks bite for my liking.

Any news on Tom Youngs and Tuilagi? They went off injured on the w/end and that would be a bit of a blow if they were to be out. If so I assume we'd see this for Scotland: (My choice in brackets)

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. G Parling
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan
9. B Youngs
10. O Farrell (F Burns)
11. B Foden
12. B Barritt (36)
13. J Joseph
14. C Ashton
15. M Brown

16. J Gray (R Buchanan) 17. M Vunipola 18. D Wilson 19. C Lawes 20. J Haskell 21. D Care 22. T Flood (O Farrell) 23. D Strettle (C Wade)

stlowe wrote:Hartley/Youngs in the AP this season

Matches 9/9
Tries 2/0
Try Assists 1/0
Passes 25/11
Carries 55/51
Metres Carried 72/40
Clean Breaks 0/0
Offloads 7/2
Defenders Beaten 5/4
Tackles 55/62
Missed Tackles 8/9

Interesting AP stats. Doesn't quite give the full picture as ever though. Youngs has gone very well in the HCup games and was a clear improvement to Hartley during the AIs with his carrying and pace.

Chjw131 wrote:GF i'd think we'd be looking at Launchburry running the line-out it seems like he's been doing that for Wasps with Palmer out. Lawes as a jumper but I don't think he's got the brains for line-out running.

I agree, Lawes is massively improved this season in the line-out on both his own and opposition throws but he's not running them, Wood currently is doing the job for Saints. When Wood was rested to the bench the other week Sorensen was brought into the team to run them. For England I expect Parling to run them assisted by Wood if he is picked at 6. I could be wrong but thought I'd read on here that Wentzel or Cannon have been running the Wasps line-out this season, no mention of Launchburry.

I think people have been unfairly critical of Hartley's game over the last year or so, they've been pointing out that he hasn't been doing as much of the obvious barnstrorming as he did earlier in his career, but failed to notice what he has added to his game and brings to the side in aspects like the breakdown and link play.

I think the link work will prove to be particularly important as the England side continues to develop. Most top quality sides can soak up continued head down charges, what makes the difference at the elite level is shifting the point of attack on the gain line with multiple forward runners coming round the side and offloading/passing to each other in the face of the defence. There's a lot of mileage in players like Hartley and Robshaw peeling off the base or at the front of a pod and then offloading before contact to bigger or more rangy (if in more space) runners like Morgan, Vunipola, Haskell, Launchbury, Croft and Wood, increasing their effectiveness.

Youngs of course does himself make good yards, but there is definitely a balance to be struck in the types of attributes all the players bring and what they facilitate in each other's games.

Both are good options and bring slightly different things to the table that benefit the side in my opinion.

mbernz wrote:I think people have been unfairly critical of Hartley's game over the last year or so, they've been pointing out that he hasn't been doing as much of the obvious barnstrorming as he did earlier in his career, but failed to notice what he has added to his game and brings to the side in aspects like the breakdown and link play.

I think the link work will prove to be particularly important as the England side continues to develop. Most top quality sides can soak up continued head down charges, what makes the difference at the elite level is shifting the point of attack on the gain line with multiple forward runners coming round the side and offloading/passing to each other in the face of the defence. There's a lot of mileage in players like Hartley and Robshaw peeling off the base or at the front of a pod and then offloading before contact to bigger or more rangy (if in more space) runners like Morgan, Vunipola, Haskell, Launchbury, Croft and Wood, increasing their effectiveness.

Youngs of course does himself make good yards, but there is definitely a balance to be struck in the types of attributes all the players bring and what they facilitate in each other's games.

Both are good options and bring slightly different things to the table that benefit the side in my opinion.

Fair comment mbernz. We had a thread about England hookers pre the SA tour and Hartley's breakdown work was generally well recognised in that. I think he's a good player and from the stats his link work seems to be very high for his position. It's more the fact that when he does carry it's not particularly effective; he slows and drops his shoulder going into contact and that compromises his effectiveness. This can be accomodated in a well balanced pack but we haven't had that balance until the last couple of AI games I don't feel.

The only concern i have with Lawes is that he just seems to pick up injuries ...and this is why (even though hes still only 23) he hasnt hit the heights he should be by now(that his potential suggested)

If he can start and stay fit...and show these seriously impressive performances on a regular consistant basis, like Launchbury seems to do, then i would have no issues having him in the starting lineup alongside with Launchbury.
But for the moment Parling has that shirt...and Lawes can show what he can do off the bench.

Dont forget we have Slater, Kruis, Savage (Garvey) all coming through aswell and are the new modern style locks equally comfortable at 6 as they are at lock.
So we are in a great position now compared to a few years ago with regards to Second Row options.

RE Hartley v Youngs

We have all been hugely praising of Hartleys influence on the breakdown, the set pieces etc. For England he has taken a role alongside Cole as chief disruptor at the breakdown etc.
What we have seen though is that he has not shown those carrying stats listed above for England....and Youngs seemed to be a breath of fresh air in that regards. Especially when the serious lack of forward carrying has been a glaring ommision from the current pack...

Either way we have two very good hookers, of differing styles fighting for that spot...its only going to benefit England...

GeordieFalcon wrote:The only concern i have with Lawes is that he just seems to pick up injuries ...and this is why (even though hes still only 23) he hasnt hit the heights he should be by now(that his potential suggested)

If he can start and stay fit...and show these seriously impressive performances on a regular consistant basis, like Launchbury seems to do, then i would have no issues having him in the starting lineup alongside with Launchbury.
But for the moment Parling has that shirt...and Lawes can show what he can do off the bench.

Dont forget we have Slater, Kruis, Savage (Garvey) all coming through aswell and are the new modern style locks equally comfortable at 6 as they are at lock.
So we are in a great position now compared to a few years ago with regards to Second Row options.

RE Hartley v Youngs

We have all been hugely praising of Hartleys influence on the breakdown, the set pieces etc. For England he has taken a role alongside Cole as chief disruptor at the breakdown etc.
What we have seen though is that he has not shown those carrying stats listed above for England....and Youngs seemed to be a breath of fresh air in that regards. Especially when the serious lack of forward carrying has been a glaring ommision from the current pack...

Either way we have two very good hookers, of differing styles fighting for that spot...its only going to benefit England...

Yes good comments.

With Hartley v Youngs

It seems to be the sensible consensus view here that they offer slightly different things and that one could almost go on a horses for courses basis and with a close eye on team balance.

Fair enough.

But i want to add something....

1. The balance with Youngs in the side as it was vs NZ looked pretty damned good to me; and
2. We need ball carrying forwards. In 2003 we had at least 6 in a pack of 8. That is as it needs to be for England.

Tri

I think thats why Youngs stood out....certainly for me.

I have voiced my concerns since the SA tour about our complete lack of forwards hitting the line at pace and with intent of breaching the line...like Alberts etc do. Even the supposed ball carrying of Waldrom failed to impress me in this regards.

However slowly the introduction of Youngs, Morgan and Launchbury have changed this...indeed Parling was noticeable with his carrying aswell.

It was refreshing to see this...and obviously allowed to happen with a nicely balance pack..where more and more of the pack seem comfortable doing the nitty gritty, unglamorous tight work...

So does England have a style of play/ and emerging style of play?

If so then what is it?

Does it depened on who is playing 10 out of Farrell, Flood and Burns?

Who out of those 3 is best placed to co-oridnate our most effective style of play?

Does it play to our strengths?

Do we need to have one at all?

Im not looking for one style of play per say...im looking for players to react to the oppositions game.

If its peeing it down with horrific conditions and we need to grunt it up the middle with rolling maul after rolling maul...then do so.

If its a fine bright day then get the ball in hand and get those forwards on the hoof and spin it out wide...

If the opposition and putting all their forwards in every ruck near enough then play clever enough to only attack the rucks we can win...save our energy...

If we're having an off day and not playing well then control it and play territory...play rugby in their 22...winning when your playing poorly is a skill aswell.

Dont be shamed to play for points...ill happily win like Sarries did on Saturday equally as electric back play scoring tries...Winning is winning and i dont care what any other fans in the world say...

Simples

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im not looking for one style of play per say...im looking for players to react to the oppositions game.

If its peeing it down with horrific conditions and we need to grunt it up the middle with rolling maul after rolling maul...then do so.

If its a fine bright day then get the ball in hand and get those forwards on the hoof and spin it out wide...

If the opposition and putting all their forwards in every ruck near enough then play clever enough to only attack the rucks we can win...save our energy...

If we're having an off day and not playing well then control it and play territory...play rugby in their 22...winning when your playing poorly is a skill aswell.

Dont be shamed to play for points...ill happily win like Sarries did on Saturday equally as electric back play scoring tries...Winning is winning and i dont care what any other fans in the world say...

Simples

Yes fair enough. A team of all rounders with all round capabilities capable of playing it many ways.

I'll narrow it down for you......(all of you)

It is a fine bright day and were in possession on the halfway line.

What precisely is the best way for this England group to score meat pies and/or take the penalties for defensive cheating??

Run very fast towards the baddies' try line and make sure you avoid the baddies. When you get to the other side of the baddies' try line put the ball down onto the ground before the baddies catch up with you.

Being realistic we would have 3 options:
1- Tuilagi to bosh it up the middle
2- Farrell kicks deep
3- forwards bosh it up the middle followed by option 1 or 2.

If option 1 makes gains then the back 3 might get a sniff, otherwise cycle through the 3 options, the second if neither 1 or 3 make ground.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Being realistic we would have 3 options:
1- Tuilagi to bosh it up the middle
2- Farrell kicks deep
3- forwards bosh it up the middle followed by option 1 or 2.

If option 1 makes gains then the back 3 might get a sniff, otherwise cycle through the 3 options, the second if neither 1 or 3 make ground.

Yes. Excellent.

No one will ever work this out.

Importantly we have to try to get everyone in world rugby to hate us as much as they used to.

Importantly we have to try to get everyone in world rugby to hate us as much as they used to.

Dont think that'll be difficult...we're the English...everyone hates us anyway....

The point about Tuilagi is that every once in a while he actually goes for the gap - and I think thats what makes him more impressive and dangerous than just the bosh merchant many people expect

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Run very fast towards the baddies' try line and make sure you avoid the baddies. When you get to the other side of the baddies' try line put the ball down onto the ground before the baddies catch up with you.

Simple, but effective. I like it!

Bathman_in_London wrote:Being realistic we would have 3 options:
1- Tuilagi to bosh it up the middle
2- Farrell kicks deep
3- forwards bosh it up the middle followed by option 1 or 2.

If option 1 makes gains then the back 3 might get a sniff, otherwise cycle through the 3 options, the second if neither 1 or 3 make ground.

The NZ game is fresh in the memory and was no doubt impressive but there's no avoiding that's a pretty accurate summing up of the sides attacking options. Hopefully we can see Burns or 36 blooded in the 6N to change that a bit. Twelvetrees especially must seem like a wet dream to the wingers at the moment - a world where we do more than chase the ball...

king_carlos wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:Being realistic we would have 3 options:
1- Tuilagi to bosh it up the middle
2- Farrell kicks deep
3- forwards bosh it up the middle followed by option 1 or 2.

If option 1 makes gains then the back 3 might get a sniff, otherwise cycle through the 3 options, the second if neither 1 or 3 make ground.

The NZ game is fresh in the memory and was no doubt impressive but there's no avoiding that's a pretty accurate summing up of the sides attacking options. Hopefully we can see Burns or 36 blooded in the 6N to change that a bit. Twelvetrees especially must seem like a wet dream to the wingers at the moment - a world where we do more than chase the ball...

Don't forget option 4- Throw a horrible pass behind/at the feet of the player on your shoulder and then watch as they get smashed by the opposition who clearly saw such an obvious telegraphed move.

Aparently England have recruited Geech for the weeks running up to the Scotland game.
http://blogs.espnscrum.com/latest-news/archives/2013/01/england_call_on_mcgeechan.php

propdavid_london wrote:Aparently England have recruited Geech for the weeks running up to the Scotland game.
http://blogs.espnscrum.com/latest-news/archives/2013/01/england_call_on_mcgeechan.php

Can't say i saw that coming. Why in the world would they do that?

That was my thinking Alastair.
He's been out of the international game so couldnt offer insight on the opo.
Perhaps Catt is asking for some additional ideas!

Geech has a truly horrible record as well over the last few seasons! Just as things are settling down and look to be running smoothly something always has to crop up like this that makes you think WTF?

I guess the RFU must have had some cash to blow, shame they couldn't have got in some one with a bit of experience winning stuff but then it is an old boys club still.

And if Catt needs additional ideas now then he never should have been chosen as the England attack/back coach!

Well, he's not on the permanent staff at least. Just a consultant for a few weeks.
There is no mention on what his role will be - perhaps its giving managerial advice to SL.

propdavid_london wrote:Well, he's not on the permanent staff at least. Just a consultant for a few weeks.
There is no mention on what his role will be - perhaps its giving managerial advice to SL.

I certainly hope that's all they have him in for David. For the AI's we were just beginning to see the style of play that Bomber/Rowntree/Farrell/Catt were shooting for, and it obviously needs more refining. Anything from Geech would classify as 'too many cooks ...' in my eyes, a critcism that has already been levelled with a 4 man coaching staff, and as Yappy said his record in the last few years has been atrocious.

Not entirely sure that he is needed really? He certainly didn't do anything useful at Bath. But as a Yorkshireman who represented Scotland, maybe him and Lancaster get on well and he can pass on some man-management tips.

AlastairW wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Aparently England have recruited Geech for the weeks running up to the Scotland game.
http://blogs.espnscrum.com/latest-news/archives/2013/01/england_call_on_mcgeechan.php

Can't say i saw that coming. Why in the world would they do that?

I guess Gary Neville is busy currently.

Couldnt they have hired Any Robinson?

It's clearly a retaliation for the Scots taking Dean Ryan. You've nicked an English coach so we'll.....nick another English coach.....for a few weeks at least.

Maybe they'll play him at 12 to help with the attacking play?!

McGeechan is a pretty good motivator of players to be honest, and still commands huge respect. No doubt he'll also be telling the English players that Lions selections are very much up for grabs and that the preceding 6 Nations is the prime selection tool.

Nothing new there obviously, but I can see McGeechan having an effective input.

Were Johnson and Ryan to ask Telfer to come in for the two weeks leading to the England game I'd be delighted. Yes, he's a old warhorse and not entirely schooled in modern day pro rugby, but these guys can contribute, and they command instant respect from the players.

I can understand the decision.

Let Lancaster do what he wants. To be honest, in my eyes, he hasn't put a foot wrong yet, and he's instilled respect and honour in the England jersey again. It's a pleasure to be an England fan at the moment, so whatever he thinks he has to do to motivate our players, I'm right behind him.

bluestonevedder wrote:Let Lancaster do what he wants. To be honest, in my eyes, he hasn't put a foot wrong yet, and he's instilled respect and honour in the England jersey again. It's a pleasure to be an England fan at the moment, so whatever he thinks he has to do to motivate our players, I'm right behind him.

Bumder!

bluestonevedder wrote:Let Lancaster do what he wants. To be honest, in my eyes, he hasn't put a foot wrong yet, and he's instilled respect and honour in the England jersey again. It's a pleasure to be an England fan at the moment, so whatever he thinks he has to do to motivate our players, I'm right behind him.

While I agree with you, I feel that the NZ game (great as it was) has clouded everyones judgments a little. He has instilled some pride in the shirt and made us less of a laughing stock but our play has been naive at times so I think a really strong 6 Nations is needed to show he has advanced the playing squad, not just stopped the players acting as if they are on a stag do.

Triangulation wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Let Lancaster do what he wants. To be honest, in my eyes, he hasn't put a foot wrong yet, and he's instilled respect and honour in the England jersey again. It's a pleasure to be an England fan at the moment, so whatever he thinks he has to do to motivate our players, I'm right behind him.

Bumder!

Little old for me Triangulation!