Greatest: Round 2: Choose your 10

First topic message reminder :

Rules and context here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38622-the-greatest-introduction-the-rules

Previous threads here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38819-greatest-round-2-choose-your-15#1753473
https://www.606v2.com/t38887-greatest-round-2-choose-your-11-14
https://www.606v2.com/t38898-greatest-round-2-choose-your-13
https://www.606v2.com/t38921-greatest-round-2-choose-your-12

Brief:
• Vote for one player only in the fly half position.
• Votes are cancellable so in the event that it seems the votes for the 9 candidate are going in a certain direction, feel free to change your choice if you feel another player would complement the scrum half better.
• It can be assumed that players in the amateur era would have been just as dominant vis a vis their historical peers if they had followed professional conditioning programmes.

Your shortlist (in no particular order):

1. Barry John
British & Irish Lions – 5 caps, Wales – 25 caps

It is not an exaggeration to say that John was rugby's first superstar, the oval ball's George Best, whose star shone brightest as he piloted the Lions to their first and only series victory in New Zealand , in 1971. Not for nothing did the Kiwi press nickname Barry John 'The King'.

In 1971 the Wales national team entered what is considered their second 'Golden Age', with a team rich in experience and talent. John was part of the team that won the 1971 Five Nations Championship, the first time Wales had achieved a Grand Slam win since 1952 and for a short time was a key part of a Welsh side that swept all before it in Europe. It is for the Lions, however, that John will be best remembered.

South Africa were the first Lions opposition to catch on to the stand-off's elusive genius, singling out he and Gareth Edwards as the men to stop by any means necessary early on in the 1968 tour. With his mesmeric side-step having instantly captured the rugby public's imagination, John's battle with the Springbok back row greats Jan Ellis and Piet Greyling was eagerly awaited. Sadly, it lasted only a quarter of an hour. Making his second break of the first Test, John raced for the line, only for Ellis's desperate tackle to break the Welshman's collar-bone as he landed on the hard ground. While John ended his first Lions tour as a casualty, in his second it was he who inflicted the damage as the tourists beat New Zealand 2-1, with the final Test drawn.

At 5'9" tall and weighing less than 12 stone, John's advantage over his opponents was always based on skill rather than strength, although the fact that only John Dawes and Ian McLauchlan played more games than him on the 1971 tour testifies to his durability.

Like almost all sporting greats, John's self-confidence and self-belief bordered on arrogance, but, pricelessly, rubbed off on the players around him and enabled him to try - and execute - things others would never attempt. The 71 Lions tour was his swansong and his greatest achievement. He scored a record 191 points in his 17 matches and 30 of the Lions' Test total of 48. He masterminded the 47-9 destruction of champion province Wellington and scored against New Zealand Universities a try so sublime it was greeted by a second of total silence while the crowd did a collective double-take at what they had witnessed.

He sat on the ball and taunted his opponents with sleight of hand in protest at the foul play of Hawkes Bay, and he bombed full-back Fergie McCormick out of the All Blacks team with his precise peppering of the corner flags in the opening international. His control over the ball out of hand was unparalleled and many commentators have pointed out that such control existed before the modern breed of ball found its way on to the park (waterproofed with laminate, with dimpled surfaces for grip, unobtrusive lacing and multi panels).

He even knew how to make an exit. At the tender age of 27 and “tired of living in a goldfish bowl”, John retired.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVK1XU8k2AA

2. Jonny Wilkinson
British & Irish Lions – 6 caps, England – 91 caps

Jonathan Peter Wilkinson will forever be remembered as the man who kicked England to Rugby World Cup glory in Australia in 2003 - slotting a last-gasp drop goal in extra-time to edge out the hosts in a thrilling tournament finale. Regularly a left-footer, the talented fly-half smacked over the memorable kick with his right foot to cement his place in English sporting history. That moment is just one highlight of a record-breaking career that has seen Wilkinson rise to one of the sport's all-time greats. His is a complete stand off skillset.

Wilkinson won his first cap against Ireland on April 4, 1998 aged 18 years and 314 days to become England's second youngest player - narrowly missing the record held by Harlequins' Colin Laird who debuted in 1927 aged 18 years and 124 days. A young Wilkinson was a member of the England touring party that endured the so-called 'Tour of Hell' in 1998 that saw them suffer heavily at the hands of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. But it proved to be a learning experience for Wilkinson, and by the end of 2001 he had eclipsed the England Test points record of 396 held until then by his mentor Rob Andrew.

In March 2008, he became the all-time leading Test points scorer, overtaking Wales' Neil Jenkins. His first converted penalty against Scotland at Murrayfield, took him three points past Jenkins' tally of 1090 Test rugby points. This achievement came a little earlier than expected after the IRB granted full Test status to the 2005 British and Irish Lions warm-up Test against Argentina.

Wilkinson also scored a record 29th Test drop goal against France in the 2008 Six Nations Championship - surpassing the record he had shared with Argentine legend Hugo Porta. He also holds the Rugby World Cup points record with 249, capturing the record previously held by Scotland's Gavin Hastings during England's 2007 quarter-final victory over Australia. He is also the only player to score points in two Rugby World Cup finals - scoring four penalties and that famous drop goal in the 2003 victory over Australia and two penalties in the 15-6 loss to South Africa in 2007. He has also toured with the British & Irish Lions twice - to Australia in 2001 and New Zealand in 2005 scoring 67 Test points in the 6 Lions Test matches he has started.

Following that memorable night in Sydney in 2003, Wilkinson's career was blighted by injury. Knee ligament, arm, shoulder and kidney problems meant he did not appear again for England until 1,169 days later in their opening game of the 2007 Six Nations Championship against Scotland on 3 February 2007. In his comeback England match, Wilkinson scored a Calcutta Cup record of 27 points in a Man-of-the-Match performance. The following week against Italy, he became the highest point-scorer in the history of the Five/Six Nations Championship. Injury problems returned later that year but he battled back to be part of England Rugby World Cup squad that surprised many as they made their way to the final where they were beaten by the Springboks.

He returned to the international stage at the end of 2009 and retained his place for the 2010 Six Nations during which time he eclipsed Ireland's Ronan O'Gara as the all-time leading scorer in Championship history. But question marks over his form saw him dropped for only the third time in his career for the final clash with France. He toured Australia that summer but shoulder injury would sideline him for the end of year internationals as Toby Flood cemented his place in the side. Wilkinson was forced to adapt to a supporting role but he continued to have an impact on proceedings - landing a long-range penalty with his first touch during the Six Nations victory over France in 2011 which also saw him reclaim the all-time Test points record that he had previously lost to New Zealand's Dan Carter.

On December 12, 2011, Wilkinson announced his retirement from international rugby and will focus on his club career with Toulon, where he has become a firm press and fan favourite.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezSXeagn0Mg

3. Daniel Carter
New Zealand – 94 caps

Daniel William Carter is arguably the best fly-half in the modern game and his reputation and subsequent fame transcends both hemispheres. He is the most accomplished and garlanded 10 in the modern era and the All Blacks' leading all-time Test points-scorer, having eclipsed the previous mark of Andrew Mehrtens.

After making his Super Rugby debut for the Crusaders in 2003, he became an All Black that same year, displaying huge talent at the tender age of 21. The Canterbury-native made an impressive international debut at inside centre against Wales on June 21, scoring a try, six conversions and a penalty in New Zealand's crushing 55-3 win in Hamilton. Carter was then included in New Zealand's 2003 Rugby World Cup squad where he first came to the attention of the wider international rugby audience - despite being a bit-part player in the latter stages of the All Blacks' campaign that ended with a semi-final defeat to Australia.

He bounced back from that disappointment the following year with a series of strong performances and he finally made the switch to fly-half at the end of the year, displacing Carlos Spencer. The following year brought the challenge of the British & Irish Lions and it was one that Carter rose to. He notched 11 points in the 21-3 1st Test victory but it was his performance in the series-clinching 2nd Test triumph in Wellington that catapulted him to a new level of excellence. He scored two tries, five penalties, and four conversions to end the match with 33 points, smashing the previous All Blacks record of 18 points in a Lions Test. His total of 44 points in two Tests against the 2005 Lions left his just two points shy of the most points scored by any player in all Tests against the Lions and injury ruled him out of the final Test.

After a standout year, that also included victory in the Tri Nations, Carter was named 2005 IRB Player of the Year, and New Zealand's Player of the Year. The following year brought further reward for Carter and New Zealand with a third successive Tri Nations crown and the All Blacks entered the Rugby World Cup as favourites. But Carter had to share in the blame for the All Blacks' worst ever World Cup showing after they crashed out in the quarter-finals at the hands of hosts France. The All Blacks bounced back to form with Carter at the heart of another Tri-Nations success in 2008 that was followed by another Grand Slam end of year tour.

Carter's provincial career is equally impressive during a dominant era for the Crusaders. The accomplished Carter reached the final of the competition with the Crusaders in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2008. Although they lost the 2003 and 2004 finals, by 2005 he had moved to fly-half and inspired a prolific run for the Canterbury-based franchise that included three titles in four years. In the 2006 season Carter scored the most individual points for a player in one season with 221.

In April 2008 it was reported that Carter was considering a lucrative move to the northern hemisphere, a move that would add to a worrying player drain from New Zealand. Fearing the loss of another of their stars, Carter was granted a sabbatical by the New Zealand Rugby Union as part of a new contract. In the face of a host of reported offers, Carter subsequently signed a seven-month contract with French Top 14 side Perpignan, worth a reported £500,000, and joined the team after the All Blacks' end of year Grand Slam tour. But his sojourn was brought to a premature end after just five games due to the recurrence of an Achilles tendon injury in February. He was forced to watch from the sidelines as his side went on to claim the Top 14 crown.

After briefly contemplating offers from elsewhere in New Zealand, Carter re-signed with Canterbury and the Crusaders. In 2010, Carter achieved another career milestone when he passed the 1,000 points marker in Super Rugby and later eclipsed Australian Stirling Mortlock as the all-time leading points scorer in Super Rugby history. After guiding the All Blacks to their 10th Tri-Nations title with a win over South Africa in Soweto, Carter announced that he would undergo ankle surgery, resulting in an eight-week lay-off. He returned to action for the end of year tour and helped propel the All Blacks to a Grand Slam tour of the UK & Ireland. In the process he also became the all-time leading scorer in Test rugby with his 12-point haul in the final game against Wales carrying him past the mark of England's Jonny Wilkinson.

With the 2011 Rugby World Cup approaching, speculation over Carter's playing future re-surfaced but in a major boost for New Zealand rugby he shunned several overseas offers to re-sign with the NZRU in a four-year deal that includes the option of another sabbatical. Carter hoped to celebrate his new deal by inspiring the All Blacks to World Cup glory. However, his hopes of doing so were dashed by a groin injury he suffered in training on the eve of his side's final pool game, against Canada.

But he pulled on the black shirt once again for the 2012 Rugby Championship and helped guide the All Blacks to a clean-sweep of the competition. He was later honoured as the 2012 IRB Player of the Year and joined Richie McCaw as a multi-award winner.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYKthRmMjKo

emack2 wrote:Toulon could indeed afford THE best that was Andrew Merthens in his day,he got them promoted.As indeed he did with most Nh sides he played for. A better all round game than Wilkinson,his equal as a goalkicker BUT like most 10`s of the day he was an indifferent defender.
Freddie Michelak is at Toulon now and Carter rumoured there among other french clubs.
Frankly the Top14 ethos stinks now of Soccer Clubs the rich buy best,then rotate them.It has a dual purpose enhances there team but also denies the spare talent to rival clubs.
Dan Carter would be my choice with Merths a close second.

Makes you wonder why Toulon bothered withthe other 14 players really. What complete nonsense to ever believe that one kiwi was so amazing he gets promotion for any team he played for. TEAM sport mate.

That wasn't the vibe I got from emack's post, rainbow, he was just stating a fact that Mehrtens came in and helped a lot of NH clubs in that situation in his career. He did at Quins!

Rugby has changed so much since I started to follow it 60 years ago that comparisons between players are unreliable - but still fun!

Of the 3 fly-halves in this second half of the poll, I have no doubt that Dan Carter is the best all-rounder. But the differences in the game make it hard to say whether he, or Barry John, are the best in their respective eras, considering how the requirements of the position have changed.

I recall when Barry John tackled a big French forward, Dauga, in the 1971 Five Nations. His nose was broken and he went off the field. I think Carter would have achieved the tackle without serious injury, being a superb defender.

But requirements were different then. The next day, the Western Mail was full of astonishment that the Wales fly-half had felt it was his job to make the tackle. That attitude wouldn't apply now. Carter, any fly-half, would be expected to play his part in defence. Wilkinson in his heyday took tackling by a fly-half to a very high level of excellence

On the other hand, in 1971 John came back on the field after about 20 minutes, a plug of cotton wool up each nostril. It's questionable whether national coaches would allow a key player to take such a risk today.

Within a few minutes he had scored a brilliant solo try to the left of the French posts. Wales won the Grand Slam as a result. He scored despite his breathing being so badly affected that Carwyn James later had to persuade him to go on the Lions' tour to New Zealand - -the only series win by the Lions against the All Blacks, the tour when New Zealanders themselves dubbed John "the King".

If I had to sum up the big difference between rugby back then and now, it would be that the game used to be a contact sport but now it's a collision sport.

had to go for johnny as he was part of possibly the most succesfull team over a 3 year period(yes the england record during that spell was better than the kiwis have managed..) and offcourse done it when it mattered- in a world cup final..

Sadly carter didnt get his chance to win his WCF.. but i cant give it to him just because he was unlucky..

Or just put it down to me being a biased patriot....

Optimist,Chequered Warrior,Rainbow you miss my points,firstly that this sort of thread is pointless.Secondly because it is only a persons opinion,thirdly because the criteria for positions have changed and evolved.
My knowledge of rugby is vast,based on what I have seen,heard,and read,I am cursed with almost total recall memory wise etc.I have only watched 6 touring sides live in my life,my work was 7 days a week and unsocial hours.
Optimist is even older than me and has watched lots of Welsh Rugby ,an area I am not an expert in.Although over the years I have obviously seen many great players of all nations.
As an example an England 10 Richard Sharp was one I rated highly in my early days.I remember people arguing the relative merits of Johhny Williams and Dickie Jeeps.
Rainbow I deal in facts ,not hearsay THE most important player in the Team is the Goal Kicker.How many matches did England win because of Wilkinson`s boot,or NZ because of Don Clarke,GrantFox,Merthens ,Carter.
Merthens BOOT got Toulon,Harlequins,and a third French side promoted before he retired to play for French tier3 side at 37or 8.
That isn`t about it being a team game ,its about Penalties/Drops win far more games than tries even today.
That backs today are expected to do what forwards do and vice versa,as Optimist points out.A Fly half was expected to defend only against players of his own size /weight there were of course exceptions.
In my field of expertise NZ players at 10,12,15 all had the same skills and were
interchangeable,11 and 14 besides being strike runners also cover defended the 15.
Nz Rugby was based on good basic skills,forward set piece execution ,THE RUCK and cover defence.
Hookers were a primary source of possession,Scrummage,win as many tight heads as possible,throw accurately at the lineout and also become an extra flanker.
Props were there to scrummage,act as an extra line out option,or lineout support jumpers,do the graft in Mauls/Rucks etc THEN be mobile around the field.MOST were from at least 1949.
Props and the Number 8 were primarly Tight Forwards the Scrum/Lineout/Kick off.Then the graft at Mauls/rucks etc. THEN they can play on the Wing.
Today a player is expected to be an all round footballer ,when once each position was to some extent specialized.
Optimist no doubt could tell you of relative skills of Cliff Morgan,Dai Watkins,Phil Bennett or Barry John then perhaps compare them with James Hook.

It may just be me but before JW was the tackling goal kicking legend that he became, he was a hell of an attacking 10. He had an amazing ability to get his backs going well.

People tend to think of JW as a goal kicking defending 10 but he was not always like that

Mysti don`t get carried away under Freddie Allen the All Blacks had a 100 % win record AND a better run than England ever achieved under Woodward.
Wilkinson was an average by the best standards 10 BUT one of the best Goalkickers of his era.
THAT is not about this thread it is about there all round games,BY that criteria John and Carter would take it everytime.England under Woodward wasONE of Englands great ones although NOT as great as Rowells or Geoff Cookes.
A last minute drop goal win in a RWC is no more convincing than the All Blacks one in.2011.
Mortlock or Merthens could have won the RWC for there relative sides in 2003 and 1995 .BUT they missed there drops,Wilkinson and Stransky did`nt.

emack2 wrote:Mysti don`t get carried away under Freddie Allen the All Blacks had a 100 % win record AND a better run than England ever achieved under Woodward.
Wilkinson was an average by the best standards 10 BUT one of the best Goalkickers of his era.
THAT is not about this thread it is about there all round games,BY that criteria John and Carter would take it everytime.England under Woodward wasONE of Englands great ones although NOT as great as Rowells or Geoff Cookes.
A last minute drop goal win in a RWC is no more convincing than the All Blacks one in.2011.
Mortlock or Merthens could have won the RWC for there relative sides in 2003 and 1995 .BUT they missed there drops,Wilkinson and Stransky did`nt.

Sorry emack but as i wrote earlier, JW was an incredibly good attacking 10 before the RWC2003. I would say that for a few years, he was one of the most attacking 10's in world rugby. Its also a myth that people look only to that last minute drop goal from him in the final and say thats why he was so highly rated.

I dont think that he is the best 10 that there has ever been (funnily enough my choice is M Ella) but he is more than just a defending, goal kicking 10.

emack2 wrote:Optimist,Chequered Warrior,Rainbow you miss my points,firstly that this sort of thread is pointless.Secondly because it is only a persons opinion,thirdly because the criteria for positions have changed and evolved.
My knowledge of rugby is vast,based on what I have seen,heard,and read,I am cursed with almost total recall memory wise etc.I have only watched 6 touring sides live in my life,my work was 7 days a week and unsocial hours.
Optimist is even older than me and has watched lots of Welsh Rugby ,an area I am not an expert in.Although over the years I have obviously seen many great players of all nations.
As an example an England 10 Richard Sharp was one I rated highly in my early days.I remember people arguing the relative merits of Johhny Williams and Dickie Jeeps.
Rainbow I deal in facts ,not hearsay THE most important player in the Team is the Goal Kicker.How many matches did England win because of Wilkinson`s boot,or NZ because of Don Clarke,GrantFox,Merthens ,Carter.
Merthens BOOT got Toulon,Harlequins,and a third French side promoted before he retired to play for French tier3 side at 37or 8.
That isn`t about it being a team game ,its about Penalties/Drops win far more games than tries even today.
That backs today are expected to do what forwards do and vice versa,as Optimist points out.A Fly half was expected to defend only against players of his own size /weight there were of course exceptions.
In my field of expertise NZ players at 10,12,15 all had the same skills and were
interchangeable,11 and 14 besides being strike runners also cover defended the 15.
Nz Rugby was based on good basic skills,forward set piece execution ,THE RUCK and cover defence.
Hookers were a primary source of possession,Scrummage,win as many tight heads as possible,throw accurately at the lineout and also become an extra flanker.
Props were there to scrummage,act as an extra line out option,or lineout support jumpers,do the graft in Mauls/Rucks etc THEN be mobile around the field.MOST were from at least 1949.
Props and the Number 8 were primarly Tight Forwards the Scrum/Lineout/Kick off.Then the graft at Mauls/rucks etc. THEN they can play on the Wing.
Today a player is expected to be an all round footballer ,when once each position was to some extent specialized.
Optimist no doubt could tell you of relative skills of Cliff Morgan,Dai Watkins,Phil Bennett or Barry John then perhaps compare them with James Hook.

I haven't missed your points at all, although I've always been impressed by your detailed knowledge of rugby and its history.
In my comment I started by saying that, because the game has changed so much, comparisons between players of today and the past are "unreliable" - another way of saying what you say, i.e. "pointless". But I qualified that by saying they were a lot of fun, which I think they are. That's my reason for commenting, and I presume why everyone else is commenting.
Secondly, I've never claimed that my opinion is anything but personal - exactly like yours and everyone else's on here, regardless of the extent of their rugby knowledge or lack of it.
Lastly, the whole slant of my comment was how requirements in the outside-half position have changed. Sure, I used Barry John in 1971 as an example, in a match I saw, but that's because the second half of this No 10 poll is supposed to be about him, Dan Carter and Jonny Wilkinson. I did manage to mention the latter two as well and in fact judged Dan Carter as beyond doubt the best all-rounder of the three, despite the unreliability of saying so!

freddie allen in 1966....

to old for me that one macky.. i cant comment on stuff from 1966 (cough cough,_) i wasnt around back then




two world wars and one world cup

My point has always been that players can`t be comparedEXCEPT in the era they played.IN my opinion Andrew Merthens was a more complete 10 than JW up till 2003.Jonny was outstanding as a tackler,something most 10`s of the era were not.His distribution had a fault he crabbed two steps sideways before passing.Usually a fault of 9s and a pet hate of mine Jonny has over the years evolved his game.BECAUSE of his almost constant injuries post 2003 some due to poor tackling TECHNIQUE[it was effective but technically incorrect ]
THE biggest mistake Sir Clive made was picking him for the 2005 Lions tour. I commented at the time on the site i was on 606 or whatever about it.
WHEN he was carrying injuries NZ IS the hardest place to win in on the Planet,
you need a 100 % fit players and a lot of luck to win there.
In my opinion Mike Gibson was THE best 10 of his era,BUT his Tactical/Goalkicking skills were inferior to Barry Johns.Of the 10s that played for the All Blacks 1959-71 I can`t really comment because there were so many.
Neil Wolfe was a running 5/8 partnered by Des Connor in 1961,Mac Herewini the kicker.Earl Kirton the best allrounder,the ill fated Nicky Allen the most promising.
When judgeing a player i`m not impressed by the number of caps or whether he was a RWC winner.By THAT criteria there are a lot more NZ,Sa,and Aus players than England ones.
BUT by there all round skills and how they fit into a team,when I comment it is based on facts and hopefully objectiveity.
Mysti IF you make inaccurate startements you must expect boring old farts like me to pick you up on them.
BUT hey it is just for me a matter of debate ,opinion,and FUN

No worries Granddad. I know you know your stuff..

emack2 wrote:Of the 10s that played for the All Blacks 1959-71 I can`t really comment because there were so many.
Neil Wolfe was a running 5/8 partnered by Des Connor in 1961,Mac Herewini the kicker.Earl Kirton the best allrounder,the ill fated Nicky Allen the most promising.

Even worse was the period 71 to 86 before Foxy took over.
- Neil Wolfe
- Bob Burgess and Ian Stevens in 72/73
- Doug Bruce
- Doug Rollerson
- Nicky Allen
- Duncan Robertson
- Wayne Smith

Nicky Allen fiished before his time and Wayne Smith was average as an AB- good for Canterbury.

Partly explains why NZ rugby was dire between 71-86- completely forgettable series of 10's.

I mean Neil Wolfe vs Barry John
Burgess/ Stevens vs Bennett etc

Since then Foxy, Merts, Carter and to some extent Spencer have largely kept us in good nick.

ALL those mentioned were good solid 10`s in the NZ 5/8style,THE problem was forward.The tight grafters replaced by looser more modern syle players until 1968 there were few loose forwards as such.They changed to tight and loose forwards as two seperate units.