England Vs. Scotland 16H00 2/2/13 6N build up and Match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well I'll extend a warm welcome to our English cousins in our build up and match thread.

Let’s set the standard for these threads by not WUMing and having a good banter and an insightful discussion

The summer of 2012 was a loving affair as Scots were cheering on Ennis, Farrah and Wiggins. Whilst the English were cheering on the likes of Hoy, Murray and Grainger. All that is now a distant memory as the oldest fixture in rugby is set to be a highlight of the opening weekend.

So where are we? England coming in fresh of a stunning victory against the seemingly invincible All Blacks, whereas Scotland are coming into the match after a dire run of matches that saw Robinson fall on his sword.

Last year Lancaster's England was the unknown element and tipped to be defeated by Scotland who wanted vengeance for their 2011 RWC loss. The at Murrayfield game took an unexpected turn as Scotland butchered chance after chance and charge down Charlie showed us why Parks should have stayed in retirement.

Fast forward 1 year and it's a role reversal. Scotland with a new coach and a new attitude of Play well 1st, win games 2nd. I for one have no idea what to expect from Scotland in this tournament.

England though have set their stall out in the Autumn a convincing win against NZ but the quietly forgotten loss to the underwhelming Wallabies the week before swept, discreetly under the carpet.

No doubt England will be going in confident and the Scots will be... well going in with not many expectations at all.

Scotland have named Kelly Brown as captain and it's a well-earned accolade. The Sarries blindisde has been in excellent form all year and is the best choice for the job.

England are still sweating over the Tuilagi injury and despite saying there will be no special treatment it seems he is getting every opportunity to become match fit...




England Squad



15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 6 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 29 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 11 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 0 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 11 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 5 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 4 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 4 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 12 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (London Irish, 42 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 45 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 37 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
23. David Strettle (London Irish, 12 caps)



Scotland



15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) [VC]

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) [VC]
2 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester Rugby)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) [C]
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier)

Substitutes:
16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Max Evans (Castres)

[RuggerRadge2611]

Radge - I would thank you for selecting me, but you've chosen me after yer maw!

What of it?

[beshocked]

Yes Brown is the least worst option at 7 but I saw the disastrous debacle of Scotland vs New Zealand. Strokosch missed far too many tackles that day. Mccaw and co had a field day.

Solid8 I have been watching Kelly Brown for Saracens and at 6 he has been excellent. Particularly vs Racing Metro plus he plays for one of the top English sides not a mid table French one.

You haven't seen the best from KB for Scotland recently because you keep playing him out of position.

It's pretty simple - you pick a player he is comfortable in. If Scotland don't think KB is the best 6 then don't pick him as captain and leave him out of the team.

[RuggerRadge2611]

This was real simple for me,

6. Brown
7. Dozer
8. Beattie

Have Denton and Brown play like Dusatoir and Bonnaire used to play with neither being a blind or openside, but both playing as a 6.5.

That way you have 2 good tacklers, one better at the dirty work (Brown) and one better at the powerful carries (Denton).

Couple that with JB Jnr at 8 and I think it would have been a backrow to give the English a moment of pause.

Nevermind, hasn't worked out that way. It's not a complete disaster but I feel for MacArthur. Weir and Evans can count themselves very very lucky too.

[RDW]

I think it's fair to say we need Matt Scott to last the 80 here, if not then it will be Schlong at 12 and SG at 13!

To quote jimbopop on the other thread, if this happens "the wingers can take their Kindles out of their back pockets and catch up on the latest Hilary Mantel"

[bluestonevedder]

As an Englishman, I'm not sure whether to be happy or not about that Scotland squad.I was hoping to see Max Evans starting!!

I'm glad Denton isn't starting, but he could cause havoc off the bench.

Strokosch is a work horse, but I don't think he's a real threat to be honest.

Beattie looks incredibly dangerous now he's found some form again.

What's Laidlaw like at scrum half? Interested to see how the 9 10 axis goes.

From what I've seen of MacArthur, I think he would offer a lot more starting than Hall, but maybe he'll get a chance against the likes of Italy.

Like the lock pairing- they seem to combine really nicely, but unsure about Kellock off the bench. What does he offer from there? Such a shame about Hines' retirement.

The back 3 have the potential to be electric- especially if Lamont creates so good go forward ball and gets over the gameline.

[George Carlin]

Radge - I would thank you for selecting me, but you've chosen me after yer maw!

What of it?

To be fair, she has a lot of energy for a mature woman, RDW.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Radge - I would thank you for selecting me, but you've chosen me after yer maw!

What of it?

To be fair, she has a lot of energy for a mature woman, RDW.

Yeah so my dad keeps telling me...

[Pat_Mustard]

Not considered due to injury: Peter Horne, Chris Cusiter, Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors), Ross Rennie (Edinburgh Rugby) and Scott Lawson (London Irish).

What, if anything, can we infer from this? Why are Barclay and De Luca not listed? Does this mean they are now actually fit but not selected? Does it mean that the ones listed would have been selected if they had been fit? Why is Joe Ansbro not mentioned? Or is it just a completely meaningless and incomplete list of injured players, which I suspect every time I see this done.

Regarding Brown, I'm pretty sure he'll be doing exactly the same job as he would have done if he had the number 6 on his back and Stokosch was listed at 7. All it means is we have two choppers and one carrier instead of two carriers and one chopper - which I would have preferred. But I don't think it's a reflection on Brown's abilities in any way and it shouldn't affect him.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Regarding Brown, I'm pretty sure he'll be doing exactly the same job as he would have done if he had the number 6 on his back and Stokosch was listed at 7. All it means is we have two choppers and one carrier instead of two carriers and one chopper - which I would have preferred. But I don't think it's a reflection on Brown's abilities in any way and it shouldn't affect him.

Provided he hasn't been told to play like a 7 or he doesn't shoot off into Barclay or Rennie pilfering mode off his own accord.

[Solid8]

Yes Brown is the least worst option at 7 but I saw the disastrous debacle of Scotland vs New Zealand. Strokosch missed far too many tackles that day. Mccaw and co had a field day.

Solid8 I have been watching Kelly Brown for Saracens and at 6 he has been excellent. Particularly vs Racing Metro plus he plays for one of the top English sides not a mid table French one.

You haven't seen the best from KB for Scotland recently because you keep playing him out of position.

It's pretty simple - you pick a player he is comfortable in. If Scotland don't think KB is the best 6 then don't pick him as captain and leave him out of the team.

I've seen KB play for Sarries a number of times, funny that being a Wasps season ticket holder means I get to watch a lot of Premiership rugby.

As far as a comparison between the two teams goes; I would hardly call 4th place in a league of 14 mid table, Montpelier won the same number of games in the H cup as Sarries and finished the group stage with one bonus point less. To be honest I would say a top French club is probably a bit better than a top English club due to the extra money the clubs have and being able to bring in more players of a higher quality but for the sake of argument lets call it even. I would still rate Beattie over Brown he can tackle almost as hard their work rate is equal however Beattie is miles ahead in terms of Ball handling and ball carrying, not to mention the fact that he is keeping Gorgodze who has consistantly been one of the best 8s in the top 14 out of that shirt.

[funnyExiledScot]

I just cannot fathom the decision to start Hall at hooker. Is Frank Haddock involved in this process!!?

MacArthur should have started. I'm surprised that Dean Ryan thinks this is a good idea - Hall is utterly average.

Strokosch at 6 and Brown at 7 is grim for all the good reasons articulated previously. We move one of our best players out of position, and end up with Strokosch at 6, who for all is supposed hard man qualities has managed to miss an awful lot of key tackles down the years. He was very good last summer, but other than that I haven't rated him in a Scotland shirt. At least Denton is on the bench ready to come on.

No issues with the backs. Pyrgos is unlucky, but I don't blame Johnson for not wanting Jackson kicking at Twickenham, and Jackson has played well at 10 recently.

Quite why Geoff Cross in on the bench is another mystery. Not a loosehead. If he (or Murray Low) have to scrummage at any stage against Dan Cole then it's a guaranteed English penalty.

Cross and Hall are my biggest gripes. Not happy about the flankers either, but I don't think that will be fatal.

[Pat_Mustard]

Regarding Brown, I'm pretty sure he'll be doing exactly the same job as he would have done if he had the number 6 on his back and Stokosch was listed at 7. All it means is we have two choppers and one carrier instead of two carriers and one chopper - which I would have preferred. But I don't think it's a reflection on Brown's abilities in any way and it shouldn't affect him.

Provided he hasn't been told to play like a 7 or he doesn't shoot off into Barclay or Rennie pilfering mode off his own accord.

Yes, none of that please. I expect the whole back row will be expected to do a little of that sort of thing here and there but hopefully none of them will be playing like out and out 7s, because none of them would be comfortable doing that. I just don't think the numbers on the shirts will mean too much.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Yes, none of that please. I expect the whole back row will be expected to do a little of that sort of thing here and there but hopefully none of them will be playing like out and out 7s, because none of them would be comfortable doing that. I just don't think the numbers on the shirts will mean too much.

but they should. The killer B's were so good becuase everyone had a role to fill and they all did exactly what was expected of them.

Brown did the chopping and the dirty work, Barclay was the breakdown specialist and Beattie was constantly looking for the ball and rampaging through tackles.

[Comfort]

Why does Andy Robinson still pick the Scotland team?

I dont really rate Strokosch at test level, from what I've seen.

They could have had a devastating backrow had Denton been involved a la the Irish Ferris/Heaslip/SOB combination.

Lamont at 13 means Visser/Maitland may aswell bring some mittens, there wasn't really anyone else though.

Scotland need to utilise their backrow and back 3.

Halfbacks/midfield going forward still the real issue.

[bsando]

I think Brown, Beattie and Denton could have done a similar job to the Killer B's. Denton is good at the breakdown and could quite easily work at 7 in my opinion. Wish Rennie was in same condition as he was a year ago, Brown, Rennie, Beattie... that would have been awesome

[Pat_Mustard]

[quote="funnyExiledScot"]
Quite why Geoff Cross in on the bench is another mystery. Not a loosehead. If he (or Murray Low) have to scrummage at any stage against Dan Cole then it's a guaranteed English penalty.
quote]

That would probably be true of Dickinson or Traynor too though, and there's not really anyone else! I think Low has played loose before although it's far from ideal. I was hoping Welsh would be fit, even though he's only played Prem/B&I Cup I'd probably still have rushed him back ahead of the others!

[Pat_Mustard]

Yes, none of that please. I expect the whole back row will be expected to do a little of that sort of thing here and there but hopefully none of them will be playing like out and out 7s, because none of them would be comfortable doing that. I just don't think the numbers on the shirts will mean too much.

but they should. The killer B's were so good becuase everyone had a role to fill and they all did exactly what was expected of them.

Brown did the chopping and the dirty work, Barclay was the breakdown specialist and Beattie was constantly looking for the ball and rampaging through tackles.

Obviously I'd love a real openside, any of Rennie, Barclay or Fusaro would be great, with Strokosch nowhere to be seen. Given the injuries I would have gone with Brown, Denton, Beattie. But with this selection, I don't think Brown needs to try and turn into a fetcher just because of his shirt number, I think it will be more like left and right flankers

[RDW]

I think we're really feeling the absense of Rennie, and even Barclay, quite badly just now.

A backrow of

6 Brown
7 Rennie
8 Beattie/Denton

Would have great balance and be one of the most lethal in the championship IMO.

As it is we're stuck with playing players out of position and a less than ideal option at 6.

Hopefully we can see the above mentioned back row at some point in the championship!

[ChequeredJersey]

I keep hearing that Stroks is "mean" and "hard" but I've never seen any proof of that at any level tbh. Glad he's at 6, not KB or Denton

[funnyExiledScot]

[quote="Pat_Mustard"]

Quite why Geoff Cross in on the bench is another mystery. Not a loosehead. If he (or Murray Low) have to scrummage at any stage against Dan Cole then it's a guaranteed English penalty.
quote]

That would probably be true of Dickinson or Traynor too though, and there's not really anyone else! I think Low has played loose before although it's far from ideal. I was hoping Welsh would be fit, even though he's only played Prem/B&I Cup I'd probably still have rushed him back ahead of the others!

Dickinson is a better loosehead than Murray Low, no question. It's his specialist position, and although he's not the biggest, technically he's ok. He's also excellent in loose play. I can't believe that Cross and Low on the bench is better than Low and Dickinson. I'd love to see the reasoning behind that.

[funnyExiledScot]

On the positive side, I think the backs look spot on. I'm delighted to see Hogg, Maitland and Visser in the back three, and I think that Jackson and Scott at 10 and 12 is as good a combination in those positions that we've had in many a year, plus Laidlaw is on hand to control matters, and Lamont to just stick his head down and run if we're getting too lateral.

The backs look pretty decent.

[beshocked]

Yes Brown is the least worst option at 7 but I saw the disastrous debacle of Scotland vs New Zealand. Strokosch missed far too many tackles that day. Mccaw and co had a field day.

Solid8 I have been watching Kelly Brown for Saracens and at 6 he has been excellent. Particularly vs Racing Metro plus he plays for one of the top English sides not a mid table French one.

You haven't seen the best from KB for Scotland recently because you keep playing him out of position.

It's pretty simple - you pick a player he is comfortable in. If Scotland don't think KB is the best 6 then don't pick him as captain and leave him out of the team.

I've seen KB play for Sarries a number of times, funny that being a Wasps season ticket holder means I get to watch a lot of Premiership rugby.

As far as a comparison between the two teams goes; I would hardly call 4th place in a league of 14 mid table, Montpelier won the same number of games in the H cup as Sarries and finished the group stage with one bonus point less. To be honest I would say a top French club is probably a bit better than a top English club due to the extra money the clubs have and being able to bring in more players of a higher quality but for the sake of argument lets call it even. I would still rate Beattie over Brown he can tackle almost as hard their work rate is equal however Beattie is miles ahead in terms of Ball handling and ball carrying, not to mention the fact that he is keeping Gorgodze who has consistantly been one of the best 8s in the top 14 out of that shirt.

Talking about Perpignan but I am sure a lot of people would say Saracens > Montpellier anyway.

Yup Montpellier won the same amount of games in the 2nd weakest group in the HC.

Pretty sure Gorgodze is not primarily a no 8.

A top French club better than an top English one? Not much proof of that in the HC so far.

[formerly known as Sam]

I predict for England this:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Brown/Foden
12. Barritt
13. Twelvetrees
14. Ashton
15. Goode, Brown

[Glas a du]

I think the backs look lightweight

Hmmm, closer...

[Solid8]

Yes Brown is the least worst option at 7 but I saw the disastrous debacle of Scotland vs New Zealand. Strokosch missed far too many tackles that day. Mccaw and co had a field day.

Solid8 I have been watching Kelly Brown for Saracens and at 6 he has been excellent. Particularly vs Racing Metro plus he plays for one of the top English sides not a mid table French one.

You haven't seen the best from KB for Scotland recently because you keep playing him out of position.

It's pretty simple - you pick a player he is comfortable in. If Scotland don't think KB is the best 6 then don't pick him as captain and leave him out of the team.

I've seen KB play for Sarries a number of times, funny that being a Wasps season ticket holder means I get to watch a lot of Premiership rugby.

As far as a comparison between the two teams goes; I would hardly call 4th place in a league of 14 mid table, Montpelier won the same number of games in the H cup as Sarries and finished the group stage with one bonus point less. To be honest I would say a top French club is probably a bit better than a top English club due to the extra money the clubs have and being able to bring in more players of a higher quality but for the sake of argument lets call it even. I would still rate Beattie over Brown he can tackle almost as hard their work rate is equal however Beattie is miles ahead in terms of Ball handling and ball carrying, not to mention the fact that he is keeping Gorgodze who has consistantly been one of the best 8s in the top 14 out of that shirt.

Talking about Perpignan but I am sure a lot of people would say Saracens > Montpellier anyway.

Yup Montpellier won the same amount of games in the 2nd weakest group in the HC.

Pretty sure Gorgodze is not primarily a no 8.

A top French club better than an top English one? Not much proof of that in the HC so far.

Gorgodze is primarily a no. 8 no two ways about it, its where he has played the majority of his rugby, he is listed as such on the Montpellier website despite having played lock most of this season. As far as the H cup goes this season there are three prem teams and three top 14 teams in the knock out stages both leagues have 2 playing at home and 1 away I'd call that even.

[ChequeredJersey]

Gorgodze is equally proficient at 8, 6 and 5. Think he's played mostly flanker at Montpellier after being converted from lock for Georgia too tbh. Not that he's a bad 8, but he's a utility forward and has been for 2-3 years

[Solid8]

Fair enough chequered, he still held the 8 slot before Beattie's arrival.

[beshocked]

Yes Brown is the least worst option at 7 but I saw the disastrous debacle of Scotland vs New Zealand. Strokosch missed far too many tackles that day. Mccaw and co had a field day.

Solid8 I have been watching Kelly Brown for Saracens and at 6 he has been excellent. Particularly vs Racing Metro plus he plays for one of the top English sides not a mid table French one.

You haven't seen the best from KB for Scotland recently because you keep playing him out of position.

It's pretty simple - you pick a player he is comfortable in. If Scotland don't think KB is the best 6 then don't pick him as captain and leave him out of the team.

I've seen KB play for Sarries a number of times, funny that being a Wasps season ticket holder means I get to watch a lot of Premiership rugby.

As far as a comparison between the two teams goes; I would hardly call 4th place in a league of 14 mid table, Montpelier won the same number of games in the H cup as Sarries and finished the group stage with one bonus point less. To be honest I would say a top French club is probably a bit better than a top English club due to the extra money the clubs have and being able to bring in more players of a higher quality but for the sake of argument lets call it even. I would still rate Beattie over Brown he can tackle almost as hard their work rate is equal however Beattie is miles ahead in terms of Ball handling and ball carrying, not to mention the fact that he is keeping Gorgodze who has consistantly been one of the best 8s in the top 14 out of that shirt.

Talking about Perpignan but I am sure a lot of people would say Saracens > Montpellier anyway.

Yup Montpellier won the same amount of games in the 2nd weakest group in the HC.

Pretty sure Gorgodze is not primarily a no 8.

A top French club better than an top English one? Not much proof of that in the HC so far.

Gorgodze is primarily a no. 8 no two ways about it, its where he has played the majority of his rugby, he is listed as such on the Montpellier website despite having played lock most of this season. As far as the H cup goes this season there are three prem teams and three top 14 teams in the knock out stages both leagues have 2 playing at home and 1 away I'd call that even.

When he shone at the RWC I am pretty sure it was at flanker so he's obviously comfortable there. He's obviously a versatile player.

I personally don't think Montpellier are as good as the top 3 English sides. Toulon about equal. Clermont are better IMO.

[Solid8]

My personal opinion is that the money and players in the top 14 means that the teams in the league are ever so slightly better than their English equivalents, but not by much. It will be interesting to see who makes the final.

[beshocked]

My personal opinion is that the money and players in the top 14 means that the teams in the league are ever so slightly better than their English equivalents, but not by much. It will be interesting to see who makes the final.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because as I have said I haven't seen anything in the HC so far to support your claim. Toulouse with their star studded squad got knocked out by Leicester with a bit of help from the O's.

Exactly ChequeredJersey.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Well I will be supporting the Scots, I think it is time for a resurgence of Scottish rugby, regardless of their resources and clubs not performing the way they should.

England is so 1902, I am over them, I want to see a Scottish team that go in for 80 minutes with no fear of failure, the mentality of a buldozer clearing the way forward for the masses and the spirit filled with passion and pride.

Last year they lost a few games they could have pulled a win, and their game against Italy was just so disappointing.

So come on Scotland, they can take away the win, but they will never take your pride.

"England is so 1902" is a bit obscure but strikes a a populist chord with the Boer War. Like the Israelis are chiming about about Gerald Scarfe's Palestinian walls of blood cartoon.


So it goes. But I don't worry.
England will win convincingly.
[ed]

the mentality of a buldozer clearing the way forward for the masses and the spirit filled with passion and pride.

SA or England Biltong?

[George Carlin]

That's not bad at all Radge.

The best part of 6 pages before the inhabitants of WUMford started staggering to work.

[R!skysports]

I am actually ok with having Ross Ford on the bench - as he comes on and is fast and when the game breaks up, could be dangerous

Same with Max Evans


Does anyone know if Pat MacArthur is injured

I am not keen on Brown at 7, but will look at the postive, bringing on Denton with 430 mins to go, put brown back to 6

Could be a good impact

[George Carlin]

Risky - I am totally with you in bringing on Denton with just over 7 hours to go.
Should be plenty of time for him to get along to Twickers.

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm thinking of that great football film Escape to Victory - someone needs to do a hatchet job on Dougie Hall so that we can get our Sly Stallone (aka Pat MacArthur) to start.....

[RuggerRadge2611]

That's not bad at all Radge.

The best part of 6 pages before the inhabitants of WUMford started staggering to work.

Yeah we were doing so well too....

[maestegmafia]

Has Brown played much at seven?

[RuggerRadge2611]

Maesteg

Not really. I wouldn't be playing him at 7 at all. But hey ho never mind.

[Glas a du]

What I can't understand is moving Brown to the open side for Stroganoff

[tigertattie]

Permission to cry sir???

For years the Scotland setup and team have been saying "we are nearly there, one day we will be a good team"

A team is only as good as its weakest link (pardon the old saying) Why then do we have the following:
Macarthur left out and hall in his place - Macarthur should be starting with Ford on the bench imo
Brown being played out of position - Brown should be at 6, with even Harley or Denton at 7 due to our lack of injury free 7's. Hell I'd even have put Roddy Grant in at 7 than bronw out there
Why is Laidlaw playing 9 when all season he has been 10??? - I'd have had Pyrgos continue here to be honest!
Why is Max Evans on the bench? He should be in france sunning it up.
Shlong at 13!! Poor Shlong. A loyal servant to Scottish Rugby and always tries his best. He is not a 13 though. So our (on paper) dangerous back 3 are going to have to come in for work as they wont get much quality attacking ball out wide.

I dunno

I just dont care anymore

well. I do really. But...............

[NeilyBroon]

What I can't understand is moving Brown to the open side for Stroganoff

we're just as baffled as you are matey!

I'm surprised he didn't try Denton at openside, he always struck me as an open play kind of forward, Stroks is good for well... tackling, but even then in the AIs he was woeful.

It seems to be a tradition of Scottish coaches to shoehorn him in somewhere though...

[gboycottnut]

Apparently the Scotland forward pack selected for the match V England this weekend is the biggest Scottish pack in the history of Scottish International Rugby. But is this pack bigger than England's one or is England's forward pack still bigger than the Scotland one as has traditionally been the case in matches between the 2 sides stretching back since the Second World War and possibly further back than that to when international rugby matches first began between the 2 sides.

[Pat_Mustard]

Actually I guess Strokosch is in because Dean Ryan knows him from his Gloucester days. Not the best way to make selections but perhaps understandable for a new forwards coach with only a few days to prepare a squad for a tournament? At least it means he'll know what makes the guy tick and how to get the best out of him. Same goes for Hamilton. Or maybe I'm just clutching at straws now!

[George Carlin]

Apparently the Scotland forward pack selected for the match V England this weekend is the biggest Scottish pack in the history of Scottish International Rugby. But is this pack bigger than England's one or is England's forward pack still bigger than the Scotland one as has traditionally been the case in matches between the 2 sides stretching back since the Second World War and possibly further back than that to when international rugby matches first began between the 2 sides.

I think I read that Ryan Grant noted in an interview last week that he was the pixie of the pack at only 17 stones.

Or 'half a George North', in real money.

[Guest]

England squad announcement is here, no starting XV though:

http://rfu.com/news/2013/january/news-articles/290113_squad_update_twelvetrees

36 is in, JJ sent back to LI.

[EnglishReign]

Surprised at that, no Foden either. Imagine we'll start:

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Farrell
Brown
Twelvetrees
Barritt
Ashton
Goode

36 must've had a storming few sessions to be straight in.

[kingelderfield]

Good luck 36 but how on planet earth is Strettle still in the mix...so so many English wings out there and Strettle in the 23 - he's a good club player only end of ....

Are these 23 nasty enough (in the right way), I have my doubts - light and dark - I cannot believe the lessons of the high veld don't appear to have been learnt.

This is the perfect opening game, for both sides, though from an English perspective it is ideal following on from the breaking of the AB glass ceiling.

[maestegmafia]

England squad announcement is here, no starting XV though:

http://rfu.com/news/2013/january/news-articles/290113_squad_update_twelvetrees

36 is in, JJ sent back to LI.

Good call on Twelvetrees. Looking forward to seeing how he goes.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Permission to cry sir???

For years the Scotland setup and team have been saying "we are nearly there, one day we will be a good team"

A team is only as good as its weakest link (pardon the old saying) Why then do we have the following:
Macarthur left out and hall in his place - Macarthur should be starting with Ford on the bench imo
Brown being played out of position - Brown should be at 6, with even Harley or Denton at 7 due to our lack of injury free 7's. Hell I'd even have put Roddy Grant in at 7 than bronw out there
Why is Laidlaw playing 9 when all season he has been 10??? - I'd have had Pyrgos continue here to be honest!
Why is Max Evans on the bench? He should be in france sunning it up.
Shlong at 13!! Poor Shlong. A loyal servant to Scottish Rugby and always tries his best. He is not a 13 though. So our (on paper) dangerous back 3 are going to have to come in for work as they wont get much quality attacking ball out wide.

I dunno

I just dont care anymore

well. I do really. But...............

Feel the same way at times but Johnson seems a breath of fresh air - it was maybe a step too far to ditch Ford, Cross, Evans etc you know Robinson's wee pals. Like you i have a bad feeling about Saturday and if it all goes baws up that will be our 6Ns over

[alive555]

wtf are we the only country where there is massive disagreement between what the coaches pick and us the fans ?

other nations dont shoot in the foot

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