England vs Italy: Match thread

[nathan]

First topic message reminder :

So what are peoples predictions? It's snowing in Leicester, so I presume similar weather at Twickenham?

I have a bad feeling about this game and don't think England will run away with it as many are predicting.

[Mad for Chelsea]

I'd go

Marler (I just have a suspicion Vunipola would struggle to cope with Jones in the scrum)
Youngs
Cole
Parling (if fit, Lawes made a decent impact though)
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs (Care much more effective off the bench)
Farrell (Flood had his chance, and though he kicked well from the tee didn't do enough in attack)
Foden (get some pace in the back three)
Barritt (think we'll need his defensive work against Wales still, doesn't deserve to be dropped for one poor performance)
Tuilagi (though needs to get involved more)
Ashton (not sure on this one, thought he did some good work today at times, but still a long way short of his best)
Brown (another useful outing today)

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

out of interest, when was the last time England lost by seven points or more? second test in SA? (can't remember the exact score but seem to remember it was comfortable for SA).

Yep. Funnily enough the last time they lost by exactly 7 .....Wales 2012

[wales606]

out of interest, when was the last time England lost by seven points or more? second test in SA? (can't remember the exact score but seem to remember it was comfortable for SA).

Nope. Funnily enough the last time they lost by 7 .....Wales 2012

And that was at Twickernam

Easy...

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Well Massi and Parisse have gone for England over Wales. Hope it's not a poisoned chalice.

Well I guess unlike most of us they are unbiased & have looked at both sides closely.

[Mad for Chelsea]

am I the only one who thought Clancy had a decent game? not afraid to reward the dominant scrum whent there was one, didn't blow up every 30 seconds, and generally pretty accurate. May have been a bit generous at the breakdown (thought both teams were off their feet/slow to get out of the way/left their hands on the ball a bit too long) but at least he was consistent.

[thebluesmancometh]

Have to say, there were a lot of poor England performances in that 2nd half, Robshaw was certainly not one of them, he tracked wingers, killed ball and worked his socks off...

Make sure your passports renewed Chris, theres a seat with your name on it!!!

[thebluesmancometh]

Well Massi and Parisse have gone for England over Wales. Hope it's not a poisoned chalice.

Well I guess unlike most of us they are unbiased & have looked at both sides closely.

Or they were interviewed at Twickers in front of 60'000 people...

[Mad for Chelsea]

Have to say, there were a lot of poor England performances in that 2nd half, Robshaw was certainly not one of them, he tracked wingers, killed ball and worked his socks off...

Make sure your passports renewed Chris, theres a seat with your name on it!!!

yep, surprised to see that BBC are discussing the possibility his performance may have affected his Lions chances TBH. OK he may not have shone as much as he did in the previous two rounds, but I thought he put in another really solid shift today...

[nathan]

am I the only one who thought Clancy had a decent game? not afraid to reward the dominant scrum whent there was one, didn't blow up every 30 seconds, and generally pretty accurate. May have been a bit generous at the breakdown (thought both teams were off their feet/slow to get out of the way/left their hands on the ball a bit too long) but at least he was consistent.

On the whole yes, thought in the first half he was harsh at the breakdown against Italy, then reversed in the second half against England. I think he was the only ref that cared about letting the game flow.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Well Massi and Parisse have gone for England over Wales. Hope it's not a poisoned chalice.

Well I guess unlike most of us they are unbiased & have looked at both sides closely.

Or they were interviewed at Twickers in front of 60'000 people...

81,000 please. This isn't the Milennium you know.

[Wi11]

deleted, accidental repost

[thebluesmancometh]

Have to say, there were a lot of poor England performances in that 2nd half, Robshaw was certainly not one of them, he tracked wingers, killed ball and worked his socks off...

Make sure your passports renewed Chris, theres a seat with your name on it!!!

yep, surprised to see that BBC are discussing the possibility his performance may have affected his Lions chances TBH. OK he may not have shone as much as he did in the previous two rounds, but I thought he put in another really solid shift today...

I disagree mate, Robshaw was my MOTM, Parisse might have been easier to spot but at every breakdown, every slow ball, and every tackle Robshaw had a hand in, for me he's the first name on the list, and I would be looking to find an openside and 8 to compliment him, even if the openside is in the form of SOB!

[thebluesmancometh]

Well Massi and Parisse have gone for England over Wales. Hope it's not a poisoned chalice.

Well I guess unlike most of us they are unbiased & have looked at both sides closely.

Or they were interviewed at Twickers in front of 60'000 people...

81,000 please. This isn't the Milennium you know.

But it was the final whistle, at least 20'000 in corporate and bored fans had left...

I apologies but I was hoping for a bite.

[SecretFly]

am I the only one who thought Clancy had a decent game? not afraid to reward the dominant scrum whent there was one, didn't blow up every 30 seconds, and generally pretty accurate. May have been a bit generous at the breakdown (thought both teams were off their feet/slow to get out of the way/left their hands on the ball a bit too long) but at least he was consistent.

He was more willing to see Italian errors (where he exected to see them) than he was open to seeing English ones (when he didn't expect them). He needs to see what he sees rather than what he expects.

I'm not saying he lost Italy the game...but he just needs to be working in the present at all times not what he remembers from TV coverage.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Have to say, there were a lot of poor England performances in that 2nd half, Robshaw was certainly not one of them, he tracked wingers, killed ball and worked his socks off...

Make sure your passports renewed Chris, theres a seat with your name on it!!!

yep, surprised to see that BBC are discussing the possibility his performance may have affected his Lions chances TBH. OK he may not have shone as much as he did in the previous two rounds, but I thought he put in another really solid shift today...

I disagree mate, Robshaw was my MOTM, Parisse might have been easier to spot but at every breakdown, every slow ball, and every tackle Robshaw had a hand in, for me he's the first name on the list, and I would be looking to find an openside and 8 to compliment him, even if the openside is in the form of SOB!

Gatland will probably say that without Pocock he doesn't need a proper openside there anymore, so that rules Robshaw out

[Morgannwg]

I apologies but I was hoping for a bite.

And you claim it is Morg who is the WUM .

[thebluesmancometh]

I apologies but I was hoping for a bite.

And you claim it is Morg who is the WUM .

Your on time out morg, for humiliating yourself and Wales this afternoon. Speak to you next week!!

[nathan]

am I the only one who thought Clancy had a decent game? not afraid to reward the dominant scrum whent there was one, didn't blow up every 30 seconds, and generally pretty accurate. May have been a bit generous at the breakdown (thought both teams were off their feet/slow to get out of the way/left their hands on the ball a bit too long) but at least he was consistent.

He was more willing to see Italian errors (where he exected to see them) than he was open to seeing English ones (when he didn't expect them). He needs to see what he sees rather than what he expects.

I'm not saying he lost Italy the game...but he just needs to be working in the present at all times not what he remembers from TV coverage.

I can't disagree with this anymore, there were many times Italy was sealing off, they got penalised a few times but then were allowed to in the second half.

[Mad for Chelsea]

I actually thought Walsh had a decent game too, got most of his decisions right, and was well placed for both tries. Didn't think much of Joubert, not that I felt he favoured any side in particular, but thought he just blew up far too much and seemed a bit clueless at scrum time. Now I like Joubert as a ref, he's certainly grown on me, and I'm sure he'll recognise he got it not quite right yesterday.

[formerly known as Sam]

I disagree mate, Robshaw was my MOTM, Parisse might have been easier to spot but at every breakdown, every slow ball, and every tackle Robshaw had a hand in, for me he's the first name on the list

Second on the team sheet for me behind Dan Cole who was exceptional today and is just so far ahead of every other England tighthead he simply has to start every week.

One who certainly isn't key to England is Danny Care, anyone else think he had a shocker today?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

He wasnt terrible but was passing high consistently.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

He wasnt terrible but was passing high consistently.

Yes, the amount of attacks that were stopped in their tracks by having to catch high ball was frustrating.

[ChequeredJersey]

Lucky Italy can't kick today...

I agree Sam, Danny had one of his poor games today, passing was shoddy and his kick before the Italian try was awful.

[George Carlin]

Right then, an 8 point win for Wales on Saturday would be enough to take the championship. A 7 pointer could be enough too - Wales have scored 2 more tries than England and it's not looking like a given they'll claw that back.

Looks doable.

[Morgannwg]

I apologies but I was hoping for a bite.

And you claim it is Morg who is the WUM .

Your on time out morg, for humiliating yourself and Wales this afternoon. Speak to you next week!!

Harshest guy right yer.

[ChequeredJersey]

Also can we please play Brown at 15 next week?

[majesticimperialman]

Nobody seems to be giving mutch credit to Italy on here for the way they came back in the second half and really put England under pressure.

I have thought alot about today and i believe that England's game today was because of Toby Flood....Nothing against Toby Flood, but when Owen Farral played their was a different game plan, and the players did not know which plan they should adopt.

England deserve their win. But lets not forget that Italy could quite easy have won the game today if they had not missed their kicks at goal.

England will have to have a different game plan next week and a very different mind set. Wales too will have to a different mind set. They are after all at home, and they are defending their champion ship title.

It will be a hard fought game with both sides not wanting give an inch. Both teams will need to work on their disipline, so not to give the oppo's goal kicker a chance at kicking 3 points.

[SecretFly]

i believe that England's game today was because of Toby Flood....Nothing against Toby Flood, but when Owen Farral played their was a different game plan, and the players did not know which plan they should adopt.

Careful, never suggest your side is a one man team...even if it's true.

[formerly known as Sam]

Also can we please play Brown at 15 next week?

After his defensive work today, no. Fell off a couple of tackles and was in no man's land for the Zanni/Parisse break where he should have taken the man with the ball and left just the one attacker for the cover defence rather than just passing the 2 on 1 to the net covering player.

A considerable number of England players should not be starting next week: Haskell, Care and Mako Vunipola among them. Twelvetrees positioning in defence might see him dropped as well.

I think Flood gave us a much better attacking presence but with Haskell anonymous and Wood having a mare there was little backrow support and with Care's achingly slow pass he struggled. Certainly his kicking too touch wasn't great though he kicked every penalty goal on offer. Remember Farrell created less behind a fully functioning pack and on form Ben Youngs.

[Geordie]

The problem with Toby Flood is that when things get a little ropey he just resorts to huge aimless kicks...that never hit touch etc...

Brian Moore had a rant about that against Italy i believe a few years back...and he was right....

Farrell and Burns should be ahead of him now...

[ChequeredJersey]

Also can we please play Brown at 15 next week?

After his defensive work today, no. Fell off a couple of tackles and was in no man's land for the Zanni/Parisse break where he should have taken the man with the ball and left just the one attacker for the cover defence rather than just passing the 2 on 1 to the net covering player.

A considerable number of England players should not be starting next week: Haskell, Care and Mako Vunipola among them. Twelvetrees positioning in defence might see him dropped as well.

I think Flood gave us a much better attacking presence but with Haskell anonymous and Wood having a mare there was little backrow support and with Care's achingly slow pass he struggled. Certainly his kicking too touch wasn't great though he kicked every penalty goal on offer. Remember Farrell created less behind a fully functioning pack and on form Ben Youngs.

Who do we play at 15 then? Because Goode missed 2 out of 3 tackle attempts and looked blunt and lost and from what I recall, kicked awfully. Do we bring Foden back? Brown doesn't play wing. Wingers are often told (at least I was the times I was moved to wing) to trust the men inside you, as there is nobody outside you and cover the last man. As he doesn't play wing he doesn't know when to ignore that and cut off the attack early

[ChequeredJersey]

The problem with Toby Flood is that when things get a little ropey he just resorts to huge aimless kicks...that never hit touch etc...

Brian Moore had a rant about that against Italy i believe a few years back...and he was right....

Farrell and Burns should be ahead of him now...

+1

[ChequeredJersey]

God knows how Zanni wasn't MOTM, too, made 72m in 11 carries, i break, 1 defender beaten, 3 offloads, 10 tackles, none missed. Big defensive efforts from Launchbury (16 made, none missed) and Robshaw (13/0) and Barbieri (15/0) too. Tuilagi missed an uncharacteristic 3 tackles today too

[wales606]

God knows how Zanni wasn't MOTM, too, made 72m in 11 carries, i break, 1 defender beaten, 3 offloads, 10 tackles, none missed. Big defensive efforts from Launchbury (16 made, none missed) and Robshaw (13/0) and Barbieri (15/0) too. Tuilagi missed an uncharacteristic 3 tackles today too

Yep, Zanni's stats are awesome - his combination with Parisse is really world class

[Barney McGrew did it]

The good news is we won and won't play so mindlessly again (not because we're too good to, but because it won't be physically possible). So we'll beat Wales - huzzah!.

The less good news is SL’s not for turning and won’t change his mind for next week (assuming no injuries this time, and injured players back):

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Parling (or Lawes if injured)
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan

(or Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
or Haskell
Robshaw
Wood)

Youngs
Farrell (or Flood if injured)
Barritt
Manu
Ashton
Brown
Goode

Vunipola
Hartley
DC
Lawes
Wilson
A BRer
12T
…

DC played himself out of the #1 slot – an impact player only
Hartley played himself out last time
BR only uncertain area as injuries will have an impact
Flood didn’t do enough so far to oust OF

For the near future:
We need Corbs back
Morgan - can this guy ever stay fit
Back 3 a bit of a mess (Brown to FB, Ashton to be replaced til form improves, are there actually 2 wingers in England)
12T continue to be eased in

[belovedfrosties]

We really lacked the go forward ball that Morgan (and vunipola if he played) would give us. We seemed to have stopped doing the things that made us so effective in the NZ and Scotland wins. Forwards taking the ball alone and static, why aren#t the coming in 2s and 3s, or taking the ball at pace?


As has been said, in some ways this was the best possible result for us in that we've stayed 4 from 4, but have a load of things to improve and a performance to make amends for against Wales. Also, some of the Welsh may even look at this game and think that they have little to worry about from england, i hope they do that, but seriously doubt it.

[formerly known as Sam]

Agree with Barney's choices. I'd have Croft on the bench though and drop Lawes in favour of either Slater or Kruis.

Who do we play at 15 then? Because Goode missed 2 out of 3 tackle attempts and looked blunt and lost and from what I recall, kicked awfully

I thought he kicked well actually. His ability sweeping behind but needs to work on his physicality and with a bit of luck he might refind his form as he's doing things right in attack but ballsing things up at the last minute, see the pass to Flood in front of the try line.

[Geordie]

Agree with Barney's choices. I'd have Croft on the bench though and drop Lawes in favour of either Slater or Kruis.

Sam i think your spot on there...big fan of both of those...

[Alex_Germany]

God knows how Zanni wasn't MOTM, too, made 72m in 11 carries, i break, 1 defender beaten, 3 offloads, 10 tackles, none missed. Big defensive efforts from Launchbury (16 made, none missed) and Robshaw (13/0) and Barbieri (15/0) too. Tuilagi missed an uncharacteristic 3 tackles today too

Did anyone else think Tuilagi looked out of sorts in the second half? Like out of breath or recovering from a knock or something?

[lostinwales]

Lawes did good though. Made his tackles took one crucial line out steal. - Looked OK on the odd occasion he carried. Wasnt fantastic but was good

Some poor performances - and the Italian backs looked strong and hard to put down when they got some momentum.

Flood - has he lost some pace? He was still finding half gaps and going for it but wasnt able to get through in the way he used to

[Hound_of_Harrow]

I see that as a game plan gone very wrong. England were definitely looking at Cardiff next week, rather than going after a big win (the usual scenario v Italy at Twickenham).

Whatever the words coming out of the camp, the squad and coaches seemed to be away with the fairies in that game.

Take nothing away from Italy - they sensed England weren't going to go at full tilt in the second half and took it to us. With Italian momentum building, England struggled to get back on terms.

If Wales win the Championship it wiill have been earned. If England lose it on points, then they only need to look at the attitude with which they approached today's game.

for Italy though; they gave us a good game.

[Heaf]

Fair play to Italy for their performance today and Parisse seems to always be in the thick of it - real shame he was banned for the Wales match as that could have made it more interesting.

To me it looked like despite all the talk about not being complacent England seemed to think (maybe even subconsciously) that they didn't need to put in the hard work and just expected things to happen.

[maestegmafia]

Well done England on a very close win. Must have been nail biting stuff for many of you.

Brilliant to see Italy rejuvenated and back to how they played vs Australia and France. They have a very strong team, this result will mean masses to them and they will be very sad to have not come away with more.

Having just been in Italy for a month I know how much this game means to them, plus how little faith their fans had in the team to win at HQ.

This result will be a massive confidence boost for them. Might see them take their first Irish scalp next weekend???

[Hound_of_Harrow]

Well done England on a very close win. Must have been nail biting stuff for many of you.

Brilliant to see Italy rejuvenated and back to how they played vs Australia and France. They have a very strong team, this result will mean masses to them and they will be very sad to have not come away with more.

Having just been in Italy for a month I know how much this game means to them, plus how little faith their fans had in the team to win at HQ.

This result will be a massive confidence boost for them. Might see them take their first Irish scalp next weekend???

That's about right. They lost, but Italy will take a whole load of positives into the last weekend.

[Hood83]

Also can we please play Brown at 15 next week?

After his defensive work today, no. Fell off a couple of tackles and was in no man's land for the Zanni/Parisse break where he should have taken the man with the ball and left just the one attacker for the cover defence rather than just passing the 2 on 1 to the net covering player.

A considerable number of England players should not be starting next week: Haskell, Care and Mako Vunipola among them. Twelvetrees positioning in defence might see him dropped as well.

I think Flood gave us a much better attacking presence but with Haskell anonymous and Wood having a mare there was little backrow support and with Care's achingly slow pass he struggled. Certainly his kicking too touch wasn't great though he kicked every penalty goal on offer. Remember Farrell created less behind a fully functioning pack and on form Ben Youngs.

I didn't think Haskell was bad, his carrying in the first 20 mins was the only go forward we had. Wood was atrocious.

[Hood83]

Nobody seems to be giving mutch credit to Italy on here for the way they came back in the second half and really put England under pressure.

I have thought alot about today and i believe that England's game today was because of Toby Flood....Nothing against Toby Flood, but when Owen Farral played their was a different game plan, and the players did not know which plan they should adopt.

England deserve their win. But lets not forget that Italy could quite easy have won the game today if they had not missed their kicks at goal.

England will have to have a different game plan next week and a very different mind set. Wales too will have to a different mind set. They are after all at home, and they are defending their champion ship title.

It will be a hard fought game with both sides not wanting give an inch. Both teams will need to work on their disipline, so not to give the oppo's goal kicker a chance at kicking 3 points.

Fair point, churlish not to congratulate Italy more. However, it takes something to make McLean look like a world class player...we did that. Hats off to him, thought he and a number of others looked excellent.

[George Carlin]

I haven't been monitoring Farrell's injury - will he be back for the decider?

England need him more than I thought that they would. I agree with Geordie - Flood looks good on the front foot but when space and time is tight, he does tend to resort to aimless hail marys. It's a season too early for Burns and possibly two seasons too early for Ford.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Well done England on a very close win. Must have been nail biting stuff for many of you.

Brilliant to see Italy rejuvenated and back to how they played vs Australia and France. They have a very strong team, this result will mean masses to them and they will be very sad to have not come away with more.

Having just been in Italy for a month I know how much this game means to them, plus how little faith their fans had in the team to win at HQ.

This result will be a massive confidence boost for them. Might see them take their first Irish scalp next weekend???

Quite. It wasnt just "english arrogance" that assumed a win was pretty much a given, and a win by a margin that wouldve shut down this years title.
Italy have performed well above expectation this year, only really letting themselves down against Scotland...who themselves have had a strong year. All in theres very little to choose between the various contenders.

[maestegmafia]

Well done England on a very close win. Must have been nail biting stuff for many of you.

Brilliant to see Italy rejuvenated and back to how they played vs Australia and France. They have a very strong team, this result will mean masses to them and they will be very sad to have not come away with more.

Having just been in Italy for a month I know how much this game means to them, plus how little faith their fans had in the team to win at HQ.

This result will be a massive confidence boost for them. Might see them take their first Irish scalp next weekend???

Quite. It wasnt just "english arrogance" that assumed a win was pretty much a given, and a win by a margin that wouldve shut down this years title.
Italy have performed well above expectation this year, only really letting themselves down against Scotland...who themselves have had a strong year. All in theres very little to choose between the various contenders.

I agree

So far it's been a great six nations with the teams very evenly matched.

[beshocked]

Also can we please play Brown at 15 next week?

After his defensive work today, no. Fell off a couple of tackles and was in no man's land for the Zanni/Parisse break where he should have taken the man with the ball and left just the one attacker for the cover defence rather than just passing the 2 on 1 to the net covering player.

A considerable number of England players should not be starting next week: Haskell, Care and Mako Vunipola among them. Twelvetrees positioning in defence might see him dropped as well.

I think Flood gave us a much better attacking presence but with Haskell anonymous and Wood having a mare there was little backrow support and with Care's achingly slow pass he struggled. Certainly his kicking too touch wasn't great though he kicked every penalty goal on offer. Remember Farrell created less behind a fully functioning pack and on form Ben Youngs.

Sam I agree about Brown being not as good as everyone thought. He also butchered a potential try for Ashton by not passing. He was one of many England players who had a poor day at the office in my opinion.

Why do you criticise Vunipola? I thought he did pretty well overall - strong carrying, solid in the scrum.

Flood gave us a much better attacking presence? Really? No tries yet again with Flood pulling the strings. There didn't seem to be any cohesive attacking strategy.

Farrell created less? I presume you failed to watch the England vs Scotland game. Also England scored 3 tries vs NZ if you didn't know. Flood had an opportunity to prove against weaker opposition that he is the more attacking option. He simply didn't control things very well in my opinion. Admittedly he did kick well but then that's something that Farrell Jr does well too.

Personally I thought collectively as a side England were poor. Most of the players didn't perform well. In my opinion they lacked cohesion. Reminded of the attack vs Australia and SA in the AIs.

There has been criticism of Goode but at least twice he looked for support that simply wasn't there. Also on occasions Ashton was there in support but didn't get the ball passed to him. Mike Catt has to take criticism too. He's meant to be in charge of the England attack.

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